EU delays judgement on Apple's Irish tax deal as discovery proves 'time consuming'

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  • Reply 41 of 117
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,686member
    According to this, Ireland benefitted to the tune of $11.5 billion in 2009-10: http://www.thepositiveeconomist.com/foreign-direct-investment-and-multinationals-–-irish-exporters-or-ireland-based-exporters/

    You're hugely underestimating the value of all this foreign investment.

    Ireland's Industrial Development Agency: http://www.idaireland.com
    Not from Apple they didn't.
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  • Reply 42 of 117
    SpamSandwichspamsandwich Posts: 33,407member
    gatorguy wrote: »
    Not from Apple they didn't.

    I refer to all foreign investment. Apple is part of that.
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  • Reply 43 of 117
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,686member
    I refer to all foreign investment. Apple is part of that.

    The others don't have the claimed sweetners below the 12.5%. Apple is as far as I recall just paying on its Irish sales in Ireland.
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  • Reply 44 of 117
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,686member
    I refer to all foreign investment. Apple is part of that.
    Apple has almost no Irish investment as far as I can tell from reading. Perhaps a half a dozen employees or so according to documents, and even there the execs in charge are sitting in cozy offices in the US. The tax obligations themselves are even capped at a tiny amount no matter how much revenue technically flows thru Ireland.
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  • Reply 45 of 117
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by asdasd View Post





    Apples 10-Q form begs to differ.

     

    Apple is obligated to warn investors of a potential material impact. Their 10-Q warning (legally mandated) is not some admission of guilt, or acknowledgement that they expect to lose here. My point still stands, that if Ireland chooses to change their laws retroactively it will be detrimental to their future as a place to do business.

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  • Reply 46 of 117
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,686member
    Apple is obligated to warn investors of a potential material impact. Their 10-Q warning (legally mandated) is not some admission of guilt, or acknowledgement that they expect to lose here. My point still stands, that if Ireland chooses to change their laws retroactively it will be detrimental to their future as a place to do business.
    The corporate tax rate in Ireland is 12.5% by law. That's not being changed is it? The very special tax situation Apple was able to arrange was not set by law. It was arrived at in private talks instead of using an established statutory rate available to other taxpayers.
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  • Reply 47 of 117
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,686member
    Apple is obligated to warn investors of a potential material impact. Their 10-Q warning (legally mandated) is not some admission of guilt, or acknowledgement that they expect to lose here. My point still stands, that if Ireland chooses to change their laws retroactively it will be detrimental to their future as a place to do business.

    You claimed that only Ireland or the EU would be affected because this is a retrospective law. It's not a retrospective law. It's a case based on the existing laws. Apple will have to pay up hence the 10-Q. These laws are not Irish laws but EU laws against "state aid". .

    Ireland isn't going to have to change any laws, just stop these behind the scenes deals. It's 12.5% rate is not under threat. Since Ireland is arguing against the EU I can't see Apple leaving eve if they lose.
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  • Reply 48 of 117
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 10,557member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post

     



    Well that’s not how it works.


     

     

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by stargazerCT View Post

     



    Then please explain to us how it does work because JBDragon sounds right on. Apple made a deal with Ireland, If Ireland did some funny stuff to land that deal, then this is Ireland's problem.




    Easy. This is the EU we’re talking about. Whatever the pundits here think what the fair and equitable thing to do is irrelevant. The resident pundits caterwauling about how it Ireland’s problem apparently missed the point that Apple IS warning investors about a possible ‘material impact’ to their bottom line. I’ve read estimates up to $2.5 Billion. Apple apparently thinks it is possible. The EU is trying to retroactively invalidate a tax agreement between Apple and Ireland and they apparently think they have the authority to do so.

     

    What we think should happen and what might actually happen are two different things. So no, that’s not how it works over there in the EU universe.

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  • Reply 49 of 117
    SpamSandwichspamsandwich Posts: 33,407member
    Apple is obligated to warn investors of a potential material impact. Their 10-Q warning (legally mandated) is not some admission of guilt, or acknowledgement that they expect to lose here. My point still stands, that if Ireland chooses to change their laws retroactively it will be detrimental to their future as a place to do business.

    And the EU will eventually collapse under the weight of their costly and inefficient socialist programs, as has happened with Greece.
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  • Reply 50 of 117
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 10,557member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

     

     

    No, I think that's EXACTLY how it works. Tax laws change all the time and all that matters is if you are obeying the laws in the year to which they applied.

     

    Have you never filed income tax before? Tax breaks come and go and something I was able to write off this year may not be available next year. I was able to write off almost $30K in tools/equipment back in 2008 and if resulted in me getting a $3K refund (as opposed to paying $2K). The tax break I used no longer exists, but it hasn't affected me because it existed in the year I filed.




    Apparently the EU thinks they CAN retroactively invalidate a tax break. Apple certainly thinks it possible and is warning investors about it. American tax laws don’t apply in Europe. Get rid of your American mindset. This COULD happen.

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  • Reply 51 of 117
    SpamSandwichspamsandwich Posts: 33,407member
    lkrupp wrote: »

    Apparently the EU thinks they CAN retroactively invalidate a tax break. Apple certainly thinks it possible and is warning investors about it. American tax laws don’t apply in Europe. Get rid of your American mindset. This COULD happen.

    If the EU succeeds I strongly recommend all Americans call their elected representatives to demand they immediately institute a tax holiday for all income held overseas. The multi-trillion dollar influx would be like a shot straight to the heart of the U.S. economy.
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  • Reply 52 of 117
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,686member
    If the EU succeeds I strongly recommend all Americans call their elected representatives to demand they immediately institute a tax holiday for all income held overseas. The multi-trillion dollar influx would be like a shot straight to the heart of the U.S. economy.
    You expect a repatriated rate of less than 12%?
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  • Reply 53 of 117
    512ke512ke Posts: 782member

    Apple broke the law!!!! *

     

     

     

     

    *If the EU suddenly changes the law ten years after the fact.

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  • Reply 54 of 117
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,663member
    chelin wrote: »
    If you are receiving money from someone is that person bleeding you dry? 

    In the case of Greece, absolutely! The German bankers, which are the driving force there, which you would know, if you actually followed this, have demands that they know Greece can't fulfill.

    I'm not saying that Greece did what they should have. The conservative government there had, for 8 years, concealing major tax deficits that the new administration discovered. The Bush Recession enhanced these problems. But by requiring higher taxes, firing many thousands of workers, and forcing an austerity budget, they are destroying what's left of the economy. And they don't really care. The main goal is to get the banks, mostly those of Germany paid back. This concept has failed a number of times before, but they never learn. It will fail again.
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  • Reply 55 of 117
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,663member
    gatorguy wrote: »
    Apple has almost no Irish investment as far as I can tell from reading. Perhaps a half a dozen employees or so according to documents, and even there the execs in charge are sitting in cozy offices in the US. The tax obligations themselves are even capped at a tiny amount no matter how much revenue technically flows thru Ireland.

    What is it that you read? Apple has about 6,000 employees in Ireland, and they're expanding that number by several thousand more.
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  • Reply 56 of 117
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,686member
    And the EU will eventually collapse under the weight of their costly and inefficient socialist programs, as has happened with Greece.

    Greece primarily collapsed because of financial capitalisms collapse. Not because of their socialism but because the had high expenditure and low income. They didn't collect taxes. It's an anarchist dream world.
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  • Reply 57 of 117
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,686member
    I don't agree with the EU here but they are not retrospectively creating new laws, they are claiming that Ireland uncompetitvely allowed apple certain advantages that didn't accrue to other companies in Ireland. The 12.5% is legal.
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  • Reply 58 of 117
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,663member
    asdasd wrote: »
    The 12.5% is legal. Less than that is state aid because other companies in Ireland don't benefit. Or so the argument goes.

    So, when France and Germany own large parts of almost every major company in their countries, and bail them out every few years without requiring repayment, that's NOT state aid?

    As far as I'm aware, every country gives tax breaks to companies in order to convince them that doing business there will be less costly. Portions of countries, however they are partitioned, do the same thing.

    So who decides that their tax breaks are legal, but others, in different countries, aren't? The biggest countries, that's who.
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  • Reply 59 of 117
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,686member
    melgross wrote: »
    What is it that you read? Apple has about 6,000 employees in Ireland, and they're expanding that number by several thousand more.

    Don't know if it is that high but it is high. Cork used to be the European manufacturing hub and that building still stands and is crowded enough to force Apple to open a new one in the city centre.
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  • Reply 60 of 117
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,686member
    melgross wrote: »
    So, when France and Germany own large parts of almost every major company in their countries, and bail them out every few years without requiring repayment, that's NOT state aid?

    As far as I'm aware, every country gives tax breaks to companies in order to convince them that doing business there will be less costly. Portions of countries, however they are partitioned, do the same thing.

    So who decides that their tax breaks are legal, but others, in different countries, aren't? The biggest countries, that's who.

    Not disagreeing. Just explaining the law. Of course the Germans and French are not subject to the same over views.
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