EU delays judgement on Apple's Irish tax deal as discovery proves 'time consuming'

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  • Reply 61 of 117
    SpamSandwichspamsandwich Posts: 33,407member
    asdasd wrote: »
    Greece primarily collapsed because of financial capitalisms collapse. Not because of their socialism but because the had high expenditure and low income. They didn't collect taxes. It's an anarchist dream world.

    How are unsustainably high government expenditures an anarchist's dreamworld? Greek socialism caused the problem.
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  • Reply 62 of 117
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member

    ^ Please don't turn this into another misdirected rant against socialism, this thread is full of enough nonsense as it is.

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  • Reply 63 of 117
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,663member
    gatorguy wrote: »
    Not from Apple they didn't.

    You're wrong again.

    http://techcrunch.com/2015/02/23/apple-2b-on-two-european-data-centers-running-100-renewal-power/

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/05/ireland-attracts-soaring-level-of-us-investment

    Just notice the term "long standing" in the above article.

    http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/25pc-of-apples-european-workforce-based-in-cork-30487720.html

    There's a lot more than this, and possibly I'll add some. To this post, or another.
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  • Reply 64 of 117
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,686member
    How are unsustainably high government expenditures an anarchist's dreamworld? Greek socialism caused the problem.

    They didn't collect taxes. Small businesses in Greece didn't bother to send in returns. Doctors didn't bother.

    Contrast with Germany, which didn't collapse and is a high tax high spend European country.

    Of course everybody sees what they want to in what was a financial collapse caused by over exuberant bankers.

    Edit:
    As Crowley said this is off topic so I'll stop now.
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  • Reply 65 of 117
    stoutiestoutie Posts: 33member
    I believe in the end Ireland's going to do whatever it wants to, barring any blatantly illegal acts. I hope they do. If it's good for Ireland, then they're going to keep doing what's good for Ireland. They are part of the EU. They are not the EU. States give companies tax breaks all the time. Ireland should be able to do the same. It's not called special treatment. It's called business. And the way the EU is headed, it's called survivial. My guess is this all quietly goes away, or gets delayed ad infinitum.
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  • Reply 66 of 117
    SpamSandwichspamsandwich Posts: 33,407member
    melgross wrote: »
    In the case of Greece, absolutely! The German bankers, which are the driving force there, which you would know, if you actually followed this, have demands that they know Greece can't fulfill.

    I'm not saying that Greece did what they should have. The conservative government there had, for 8 years, concealing major tax deficits that the new administration discovered. The Bush Recession enhanced these problems. But by requiring higher taxes, firing many thousands of workers, and forcing an austerity budget, they are destroying what's left of the economy. And they don't really care. The main goal is to get the banks, mostly those of Germany paid back. This concept has failed a number of times before, but they never learn. It will fail again.

    The Bush Recession? I recall under the Clinton administration loose lending policies were forced onto banks to ensure loans were made to people who were clearly not creditworthy, which neatly led up to the massive bubble in housing and the subsequent collapse. Surely you remember that, Mel? Bush wasn't smart OR dumb enough to cause a recession all by himself.
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  • Reply 67 of 117
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,663member
    asdasd wrote: »
    Don't know if it is that high but it is high. Cork used to be the European manufacturing hub and that building still stands and is crowded enough to force Apple to open a new one in the city centre.

    It's higher. I linked to articles below, in a response to Gatorguy.
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  • Reply 68 of 117
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,663member
    asdasd wrote: »
    Not disagreeing. Just explaining the law. Of course the Germans and French are not subject to the same over views.

    Of course, why should they be? It's just as in Animal Farm: all are equal, but some are more equal than others.
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  • Reply 69 of 117
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,686member
    melgross wrote: »
    Thanks. So Apple is going to spend something in Ireland to build a data-center. That's good. They'll even employ a couple hundred Irishmen to run it someday soon. Good again. It doesn't at all change the fact that Ireland was realizing very very little financial benefit from their special tax arrangement with Apple just as I said. The tax collected was capped at a minuscule amount and tallied using a random method according to documents discovered by the EU Commission.

    In the future they should see a better result tho with the data-center, so again thanks for the link. I was aware of the announcement of the other center but not the Irish one. I'll remember it now. :)

    EDIT: So Cork has a significant number of Apple employees. Thanks. I had only read of the half dozen employed by Apple Sales International, the subsidiary "holding" the bulk of Apple's cash. Thanks again.
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  • Reply 70 of 117
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,663member
    How are unsustainably high government expenditures an anarchist's dreamworld? Greek socialism caused the problem.

    Actually, not exactly. It was the 8 year rule of the Conservative party that allowed the non payment of taxes to proceed, and then hid the losses during that entire time. The socialist government that came into power found the losses and concealment, and announced it. Unfortunately, their problem was made much worse as a result of the Bush Recession, another conservative folly.

    Yes, Greeks don't work long enough, and the government employees too many people. But it was found that the budget deficit of $9 billion, a huge number for a country of about 6 million people, was almost exactly matched by the non payment of taxes. That was just for the last of the 8 years the previous government had been in Office. The total was far higher.

    This might not have mattered quite so much if George Bush hadn't screwed up the world economy with his idea that major budget deficits were just fine and dandy—as long as a conservative administration was doing it. And allowing the banks to screw around with mortgages, something his administration was warned about, but ignored.
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  • Reply 71 of 117
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,663member
    The Bush Recession? I recall under the Clinton administration loose lending policies were forced onto banks to ensure loans were made to people who were clearly not creditworthy, which neatly led up to the massive bubble in housing and the subsequent collapse. Surely you remember that, Mel? Bush wasn't smart OR dumb enough to cause a recession all by himself.

    That's not quite how it happened. First, Reagan screwed up the banking system, allowing banks to buy independent mortgage companies, financial institutions, insurance companies, and brokerage firms. From that, we had the first major bank collapse since the Depression. It took more than a few years to get that resolved. Then Greenspan, though he was warned, insisted that everything was just great, during the '90's. The republican Congress refused to act on a number of financial issues, and forced through the measure that Clinton had to sign, for fear of a Republican overwrite of a veto on the newer banking Act.

    Lord, really, the concepts are just too sophisticated for conservatives to understand. It's a shame!
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  • Reply 72 of 117
    SpamSandwichspamsandwich Posts: 33,407member
    melgross wrote: »
    That's not quite how it happened. First, Reagan screwed up the banking system, allowing banks to buy independent mortgage companies, financial institutions, insurance companies, and brokerage firms. From that, we had the first major bank collapse since the Depression. It took more than a few years to get that resolved. Then Greenspan, though he was warned, insisted that everything was just great, during the '90's. The republican Congress refused to act on a number of financial issues, and forced through the measure that Clinton had to sign, for fear of a Republican overwrite of a veto on the newer banking Act.

    Lord, really, the concepts are just too sophisticated for conservatives to understand. It's a shame!

    If you really want to get down to root causes, you'd have to go back to 1913 and the establishment of the Federal Reserve, which caused a hopelessly politically compromised currency and banking system to spring forth.

    If that final comment about "conservatives" was aimed at me, I believe you know by now that I'm a Libertarian, not a Republican.

    Further, I'm recommending that you voluntarily give up your Moderator status if you find it too tempting to insult posters with differing political views.
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  • Reply 73 of 117
    Marvinmarvin Posts: 15,524moderator
    melgross wrote: »
    As long as the law is followed, then it's fine.

    Laws aren't written up to grant a company no tax jurisdiction. It would be like quoting someone, taking it out of context and using it wrongly but claiming it's what they said. Even if it's technically true, people wouldn't accept it as a valid argument. It seems that they also had a tax deal for the rates based on the Irish jobs:

    http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/sep/30/apple-repay-millions-irish-government-tax-deal

    "Apple’s Irish tax rate has no rational basis; it was determined by what Apple was ‘prepared to accept’ – with the threat that it would cut jobs in Ireland if it didn’t get its way. That low tax rate came on top of Apple’s ploy of saying its three main Irish subsidiaries are not tax resident anywhere. Hopefully this finding will help persuade Congress that we should close the loopholes in our tax code that allow Apple-type gimmicks whose sole purpose is to avoid paying US taxes.”

    Coffey commented: “Apple owes a lot of taxes - but to the US government, not the Irish government.”"

    There's an estimate there of the amount due, which is less than 1 billion euros. I'm not sure why they say it's due to be paid to the US government but it might depend on the outcome of the tax jurisdiction decision. In the US hearing they asked where the operation was managed from and they said from the US. They can't get taxed in the US as the company was incorporated in Ireland and they can't get taxed in Ireland as it's operated from the US.

    The status of no tax jurisdiction will come to an end one way or another so the profits will either be paid to Ireland or the US. It could be a lot if it was decided to be the US tax rate.

    The money involved is small relative to the tax needs of the whole of Europe and also small relative to Apple's cash pile. If it was as low as $1b, Apple would be better off paying it and setting up a new deal with Ireland rather than having years of negative PR over it. It's not like they avoid US taxes significantly. They aren't against paying taxes on principle.
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  • Reply 74 of 117
    john12345john12345 Posts: 152member

    It just means that EC hasn't been able to find anything wrong, so they need more time to figure out how to make Apple cough up money.

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  • Reply 75 of 117
    SpamSandwichspamsandwich Posts: 33,407member

    "I am not among those who fear the people. They, and not the rich, are our dependence for continued freedom. And to preserve their independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our election between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debts, as that we must be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessaries and our comforts, in our labors and our amusements, for our callings and our creeds, as the people of England are, our people, like them, must come to labor sixteen hours in the twenty-four, give the earnings of fifteen of these to the government for their debts and daily expenses; and the sixteenth being insufficient to afford us bread, we must live, as they now do, on oatmeal and potatoes; have no time to think, no means of calling the mismanagers to account; but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow-sufferers. Our landholders, too, like theirs, retaining indeed the title and stewardship of estates called theirs, but held really in trust for the treasury, must wander, like theirs, in foreign countries, and be contented with penury, obscurity, exile, and the glory of the nation. This example reads to us the salutary lesson, that private fortunes are destroyed by public as well as by private extravagance. And this is the tendency of all human governments. A departure from principle in one instance becomes a precedent for a second; that second for a third; and so on, till the bulk of the society is reduced to be mere automatons of misery, and to have no sensibilities left but for sinning and suffering. Then begins, indeed, the bellum omnium in omnia, which some philosophers observing to be so general in this world, have mistaken it for the natural, instead of the abusive state of man. And the fore horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression."

     

    —Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Samuel Kercheval, 1816

    http://www.constitution.org/tj/ltr/1816/ltr_18160712_kercheval.html

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  • Reply 76 of 117
    Marvinmarvin Posts: 15,524moderator
    "I am not among those who fear the people. They, and not the rich, are our dependence for continued freedom. And to preserve their independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our election between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debts, as that we must be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessaries and our comforts, in our labors and our amusements, for our callings and our creeds, as the people of England are, our people, like them, must come to labor sixteen hours in the twenty-four, give the earnings of fifteen of these to the government for their debts and daily expenses; and the sixteenth being insufficient to afford us bread, we must live, as they now do, on oatmeal and potatoes; have no time to think, no means of calling the mismanagers to account; but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow-sufferers. Our landholders, too, like theirs, retaining indeed the title and stewardship of estates called theirs, but held really in trust for the treasury, must wander, like theirs, in foreign countries, and be contented with penury, obscurity, exile, and the glory of the nation. This example reads to us the salutary lesson, that private fortunes are destroyed by public as well as by private extravagance. And this is the tendency of all human governments. A departure from principle in one instance becomes a precedent for a second; that second for a third; and so on, till the bulk of the society is reduced to be mere automatons of misery, and to have no sensibilities left but for sinning and suffering. Then begins, indeed, the bellum omnium in omnia, which some philosophers observing to be so general in this world, have mistaken it for the natural, instead of the abusive state of man. And the fore horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression."

    —Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Samuel Kercheval, 1816
    http://www.constitution.org/tj/ltr/1816/ltr_18160712_kercheval.html

    How is this relevant to Apple paying 12.5% tax on billions in profit? You can buy a lot of oatmeal and potatoes with 87.5% of billions of dollars. They are talking about poor people having to pay 15/16 of their earnings in tax (~94%). If that ever happens, most people would agree that it would be a very bad situation.

    Tax can't be 0% so it has to be some non-zero amount. 12.5% is a pretty fair rate to be paying considering it is half what they say they're paying in the US.
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  • Reply 77 of 117
    beowulfschmidtbeowulfschmidt Posts: 2,389member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post



    Initially slated for mid-June, the European Commission's attempted raid on Apple's treasury will not be completed until later in the year, Europe's competition chief said Tuesday.

     

    Fixed that for you.

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  • Reply 78 of 117
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    Amazing that a known tax avoider gets the sympathy when it comes to getting them to pay their taxes.

    You people are nuts.
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  • Reply 79 of 117
    SpamSandwichspamsandwich Posts: 33,407member
    crowley wrote: »
    Amazing that a known tax avoider gets the sympathy when it comes to getting them to pay their taxes.

    You people are nuts.

    On a more serious note... Why are you still here?
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  • Reply 80 of 117
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    Why are you?
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