Discussion with a PC IT guy and "the bet"

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  • Reply 21 of 49
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    So far this thread is about 40% content and 60% content-free sequences of characters (insults, abuse and posturing).



    Try harder.
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  • Reply 22 of 49
    sushiismsushiism Posts: 131member
    computing/it teachers (esp it teachers) are usually pretty dumb, so are the courses. EG UK A-level computing exam question:



    "What is required to perform video confrencing"

    a) An ISDN connection

    b) Video and sound compression

    c) A satalite or radio network

    d) A twisted pair connection



    Now that was firstly more of an IT question than a comptuing one but some twat instantly said A but of course I disagreed because its instantly proved wrong by me video confrencing on a 56k hehe I said it was b because yeah you could argue that you need an ISDN or whatever but really its compression because you shouldn't really send megs a second anyway the comp guy even thought it was a bah took me 10 minutes to argue him to accept "a or b" ¬_¬ twats. Then again the whole class does think XP is the new god so I have plenty fun arguing its just 2000 rebranded to compete with osx erm and they have really poor arguments over why pcs are better than macs (that they only have 1 mouse button for example). Ahh well in conclusion computing/it classes are filled with morons
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  • Reply 23 of 49
    scott_h_phdscott_h_phd Posts: 448member
    I didn't say OpenGL wasn't good. I'm making the point that relying on some hardware makers acceleration of a 3D API that Apple does not control to accelerate a 2D API that they do control is stupid. Why not hook the 2D API DIRECTLY to the hardware? Why not have the hardware makers accelerate the 2D API. Wouldn't that be best of all? Why wrap around OpenGL? Because it's a cool name and the kiddies think OpenGL "rox"?



    You people are idiots.
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  • Reply 24 of 49
    [quote]Why not hook the 2D API DIRECTLY to the hardware?<hr></blockquote>



    The more you type, the more I'm convinced you have very little clue of what you're talking about.



    [quote]Why not have the hardware makers accelerate the 2D API. Wouldn't that be best of all?<hr></blockquote>



    Well, no. There are several advantages to using OGL, not the least of which is that it's an industry standard that hardware and software makers have used for years. Apple doesn't have the marketshare to convince hardware makers to enable their video cards for some proprietary acceleration method they want to use. Video card makers *already* support OpenGL (for games, CAD, etc) so Apple doesn't have to rely on the hard manufacturers doing things differently than they already do.



    Beyond the common sense&reg; reasons, OpenGL is a natural choice for accelerating Quartz, even for what you're considering 2D. A desktop is *not* 2D. Many of the elements on it are, but there is definitely a Z-Axis in use. Windows, while flat, are on different layers. Interface elements are on sublayers of those windows. OpenGL is a really good choice for dealing with the seperate layers, especially when transparency comes into play.
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  • Reply 25 of 49
    scott_h_phdscott_h_phd Posts: 448member
    [quote]Originally posted by RubberDucky:

    <strong>

    The more you type, the more I'm convinced you have very little clue of what you're talking about.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Please don't hold back. Unleash your super smarts on me. Tell me all the super technical reasons why I'm wrong.





    [quote]Originally posted by RubberDucky:

    <strong>Well, no. There are several advantages to using OGL, not the least of which is that it's an industry standard that hardware and software makers have used for years. Apple doesn't have the marketshare to convince hardware makers to enable their video cards for some proprietary acceleration method they want to use. Video card makers *already* support OpenGL (for games, CAD, etc) so Apple doesn't have to rely on the hard manufacturers doing things differently than they already do.



    Beyond the common sense&reg; reasons, OpenGL is a natural choice for accelerating Quartz, even for what you're considering 2D. A desktop is *not* 2D. Many of the elements on it are, but there is definitely a Z-Axis in use. Windows, while flat, are on different layers. Interface elements are on sublayers of those windows. OpenGL is a really good choice for dealing with the seperate layers, especially when transparency comes into play.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Well. What if there's something the card and do and OpenGL doesn't do. What then? Also it seems Apple has cooked up some bogus "supported" list for the so called "Quartz Extreme" so as far as I can tell Apple is not getting the acceleration for free just because the drivers are written for OpenGL. I'm not convinded that wrapping through OpenGL is any better or just as good as going at it directly. I hope this one comes back to bite Apple in the *** .



    Oh wait I'm sorry. Rah rah Apple is great. My 2 month old computer has been dropped from the supported list because it does OpenGL and OpenGL is used for Quartz Etreme but I can't use OpenGL for Quartz because Apple is great and I have my head up my *** . I'm so happy I gave money to a company that can't support 2 month old hardware. Weeee.
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  • Reply 26 of 49
    zapchudzapchud Posts: 844member
    Sounds like you believe you'll not be able to use your mac after Jaguar is released (of course I know you actually do know better), you will just not get to feel the power of Jaguar as well as people that spent more cash on their mac...



    It's not that bad...
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  • Reply 27 of 49
    splinemodelsplinemodel Posts: 7,311member
    [quote]Please don't hold back. Unleash your super smarts on me. Tell me all the super technical reasons why I'm wrong.<hr></blockquote>



    Scott, we're all feeling the same way. While I value you're opinion, you've made some statements that are factually incorrect, so there isn't a whole lot of respect for your speculative statements. Rubber Ducky seems to be a lot more familiar with the topic at hand, and you have a lot of grudges here.



    Next, who the hell brough QE into the forefront? IT was you. This topic had nothing to do with OpenGL or QE, so cool it.
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  • Reply 28 of 49
    buonrottobuonrotto Posts: 6,368member
    If there was something Apple wanted that OpenGL doesn't support, couldn't they just contribute to the open standard? They've contributed stuff to open source BSD IIRC. Also, why would they have to stick with OpenGL? Aside from the immediate investment, OpenGL may (and likely will be) replaced by some future, superior standard that graphics cards will support. Seems like this process of creating QE has proven how portable Quartz is. So if some competing or superior standard is introduced, could they recode the compositor to take advantage of the graphics card through that API as well? (Obviously time is a factor in the sense that if this new standard came out tomorrow, it would make all that work for coding Quartz to use OpenGL a waste of time and money.)
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  • Reply 29 of 49
    scott_h_phdscott_h_phd Posts: 448member
    [quote]Originally posted by Splinemodel:

    <strong>



    Scott, we're all feeling the same way. While I value you're opinion, you've made some statements that are factually incorrect, </strong><hr></blockquote>



    I'm still waiting to hear what they are.
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  • Reply 30 of 49
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    I think Scott_h_phd might have a point.



    *is* OpenGL an open standard? I thought I read somewhere that SGI may own it, or control the ARB, or something. Anyway, some people who now more than I do about graphics, and make a living working for the USGS with GPS, GIS, etc, used to worship OpenGL, but they say Direct X is better now. I don't know??? :confused: They aren't your average PC dumbass, they just use what gets the job done best.



    But, Scott_h_phd, you really need to contain yourself. Certainly that PhD isn't in social skills! What is it in anyway? Probably not OpenGL, either, methinks



    Yes, xorphod@%@#45 or whatever, the state of IT is incredible. I can NOT *EVER* go into Staples again. I just can't handle it. I get so worked up (and might get kicked out, they lose as many sales as possible when I'm in there.) I may do a 3 day stint there, referring everyone to the nearest Apple store, or just helping the people (Staples staff included!.)



    People buy PCs for the MOST MUNDANE reasons! AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH! "Hey, I liked that cool Pentium commercial with the Aliens! Dude!" Oh God, people can NOT see past Mhz, I had forgotten how ignorant and arrogant against Mac users people are.



    One guy looking for a PC app called PT Turbo was going to buy a PC just to run this physical therapy app, but I told him about Virtual PC. There goes a sale. One by one.



    The people who worked at Staples, get this(!!!!!!), asked me how I would burn a mini CD-R (the 3 inch oness.) I was kind of confused by the question. It ends up the associate thought I needed special drives for Mini CDs. 'Oh. my. God.' and the guy who I told Virtual PC about, he thought CD-ROMs were READ ONLY ONCE! Not write once, but READ once! He was like, "well, that's not very useful." I got out of there as fast as I could. I probably would have hurt someone, myself included, what with my blood pressure and all. People like that, now they are your poster Mac user. "Dude! You're getting a dud!" But it impossible.



    Fellow Mac users, I ask you to continue to fight the good fight, against misinformation! Warning, Scott-H_PhD, this may apply to you
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  • Reply 31 of 49
    buonrottobuonrotto Posts: 6,368member
    "OpenGL is controlled by an independent board, the Architecture Review Board (ARB). Each member of the ARB has one vote. As of December 2001, voting members of the ARB include 3Dlabs, Apple, ATI, Compaq, Dell Computer, Evans & Sutherland, Hewlett-Packard, IBM, Intel, NVIDIA, Microsoft, SGI, Sun. The ARB governs the future of OpenGL, proposing and approving changes to the specification, new releases, and conformance testing."



    <a href="http://www.opengl.org/"; target="_blank">http://www.opengl.org/</a>;



    nothing about being open source, at least at first glance. But then I found this:



    <a href="http://oss.sgi.com/"; target="_blank">http://oss.sgi.com/</a>;



    "New open source licensees of the OpenGL S.I. can freely distribute source and modified source within the liberal terms of the open source license... In the past, licenses included source code (depending upon the license) and documentation. Currently, all the source code is available as open source and the documentation is available on the <a href="http://www.opengl.org"; target="_blank">www.opengl.org</a> website. So licenses now convey rights and have no deliverables associated with them."



    I'm a little unclear whether all this means OpenGL is truly open-source or not. Seems lke only parts of it are, but some stuff is left close to the belt. Also the fact that its ARB is an independent group of private companies m may or may not have any impact on its "openness" or ability to be bought. Regardless, I still suspect that when (not if) another API comes along that is superior to OpenGL and available to Apple's GPU providers, then that will get the same effort as QE for OpenGL. Anyway, the chances that MS will suddenly buy out everyone,remove licensing to the grpahics card manufacturers, and kill OpenGL on the Mac seems unlikely.
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  • Reply 32 of 49
    splinemodelsplinemodel Posts: 7,311member
    Scott:



    [quote]

    I'm not a big fan of OS X. I think Apple blew and left too many behind. Now the "Quartz Extreme" they are needlessly leaving more behind. But ... it is stable. Just dirt ****ing slow for no good reason.

    <hr></blockquote>



    Why did you start *****ing and moaning? That was not the objective of this thread to ***** and moan about Quartz Extreme.



    [quote]

    You hate me because you know I'm right. Should I detail how stupid it is for Apple to use OpenGL for their 2D graphics API or is that covered in another thread?

    <hr></blockquote>



    1) cover it in another thread

    2) Open GL is not worse from a technical perspective than is Quickdraw in most respects, and from a compatibility perspective it is much better. Read up.



    [quote]

    And you still think it's great? Maybe it would be better for Apple to get the driver writters to hook Quartz to the graphics hardware directly and not via a 3rd party API that they have NO control over and could be bought by Micro... someone very very bad.



    Not a good way to make an OS!

    <hr></blockquote>



    You don't know what you're talking about. Open GL is open. Can you read? It was invented by SGI, if memory serves, but any company is free to create its own GL based API, and the parent company (SGI?) will not view it as patent/copyright infringement.



    [quote]

    I didn't say OpenGL wasn't good. I'm making the point that relying on some hardware makers acceleration of a 3D API that Apple does not control to accelerate a 2D API that they do control is stupid. Why not hook the 2D API DIRECTLY to the hardware? Why not have the hardware makers accelerate the 2D API. Wouldn't that be best of all? Why wrap around OpenGL? Because it's a cool name and the kiddies think OpenGL "rox"?



    You people are idiots.

    <hr></blockquote>



    As Rubber Ducky pointed out, Apple doesn't make 3d/2d hardware, so direct control would require a much greater capital investment that Apple can't afford to make.





    Scott, I tried to be polite. You appaul me. You come in to my light-hearted thread, and inject some spoiled-brat attitude and start insulting everyone who doesn't think you're a paragon of truth and knowledge. You pull this kind of childish act this all the time. If I were a mod, I'd look into banning you, since you never put forth anything constructive, useful, or interesting.



    If this isn't just some big joke on your part, part of a big troll job, please cool it. If it's a troll job, go to hell.



    Recommendations:



    1) we live in a capitalist market economy. If you don't like a product, don't buy it.

    2) Don't complain to me. I can't do anything to help you.

    3) Stop being a little ***** to everyone. It will come back to bite you some day.



    [ 05-23-2002: Message edited by: Splinemodel ]</p>
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  • Reply 33 of 49
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    People did think my Staples story above was funny and sad right? That was quite an experience, as is every trip into Staples for me.



    Scott_h_phd, what is your PhD in? You didn't answer my question



    This was an interesting discussion. Oh, and r-0X#Zapchud, tell us more funny stories
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  • Reply 34 of 49
    alcimedesalcimedes Posts: 5,486member
    hmm, guess i'll start at the top and work my way down.



    1. 2) XP is quite a bit better than 2000. yikes. not sure what exactly you're referring to when you make that assertion, but at best you could say winXP is a prettier version of win2k. i wouldn't say it's better, let alone "quite a bit better" i wouldn't bother mentioning it, just makes me wonder where in the world you're coming from if you believe this.



    2. Here is something for you:

    "It is better to keep your mouth shut and look the fool than to open your friggin cakehole and remove all doubt"

    - some famous deadguy (Sam Clemens maybe? I forget)




    now, the irony of misquoting this is priceless, so i'll just leave it at that. "It is better to sit in silence and appear ignorant, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." -- Mark Twain



    3. This was mentioned a few times, so i'll paraphrase. "it would be too much trouble for hardware manf. to make a card that would work specifically for macs. there's not enough money, we have to stick with standards etc."



    i agree with the concept. however, i would like to point to the stupid connector apple uses on all of their monitors and therefore video cards now. a glaring example that apple is willing to break from specs if they think they know better. and they do have the clout to make hardware manf. follow suit, since we've got the cards. of course i thought the idea was moronic, but hey, that's neither here nor there. (at least they should have just gone DVI and left the stupid power/USB out)



    4. it is apalling to me that you need a video card with that much ram just to be able to run your OS at decent speeds. i'm still firmly in the camp that believes OSX is damn slow. there have got to be better ways to get serious speed increases outside of making tower owners get new video cards, and have the laptop users left miles behind. it would make it a hell of a lot harder to sell me on a PowerBook at this point, no question.



    anyone watching the development of OSX ought to be worried at the rate at which machines are being left behind. From an OS that was supposed to run no problem on a Rev. A iMac to what we've got coming out now? that's a really, really steep climb.



    -alcimedes
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  • Reply 35 of 49
    zapchudzapchud Posts: 844member
    [quote]Originally posted by Aquatik:

    <strong>Oh, and r-0X#Zapchud, tell us more funny stories </strong><hr></blockquote>



    Hehehe, my IT teacher has said some remarkable things, too bad I can't remember all of them (and some doesn't sound as bad in english as in norwegian ). But I have to admit I was quite amused by the way he tried to instruct the "I dunno ****e about computers at all"-class how and why a web-page should not be wider than

    [quote]Originally pronounced by r-0X#Zapchud's IT-teacher:

    <strong>800 piixchells</strong><hr></blockquote>.



    Actually, he said



    [quote]Originally said by r-0X#Zapchud's IT-teacher:

    <strong>The web-pages should not be larger than 800 piixchells</strong><hr></blockquote>



    to the class, which of course did not understand a damned bit of what he tried to say. He never even mentioned the word "wide".



    His argument for this was that



    [quote]Originally said by r-0X#Zapchud's IT-teacher:

    <strong>Most 17 inch monitors of today run at an 800 piixchell resolution. If a person tries to view a more-than-800-piixchell page with a 800 piixchell monitor resolution, he can not.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    In addition to this, he is having the habit of telling everyone that 64 megabytes of RAM is standard in todays computers, 128MB in the higher end models.



    I'll try to dig up more l8r
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  • Reply 36 of 49
    Is there someone who thinks the same way I do? Shock ! Horror! Burn the which!





    For those who want to know my PhD is in Medical Physics. I have spent a great deal of time doing 3D vis on an SGI. Most often I used AVS for this but did take at least one class in 3D vis and virtual reality where we wrote programs using OpenGL for the CAVE. Just last week I was talking to my boss about using OpenGL to render DRRs from CT scans.
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  • Reply 37 of 49
    haraldharald Posts: 2,152member
    Scott_H = Kelly Hogan?
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  • Reply 38 of 49
    powerdocpowerdoc Posts: 8,123member
    This discussion about Quartz extreme is clueless : we have to wait the release of Jaguar in order to make our opinion.

    I think that Quartz extreme is still in a phase of developement now . QE need certainly to be optimized a lot. I am sure that Steve will put many guys to have a decent quartz acceleration. If it was not the case it will be a shame for Apple.
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  • Reply 39 of 49
    buonrottobuonrotto Posts: 6,368member
    Quartz Extreme /= hardware acceleration



    Quartz Extreme = separate compositing



    (no "does not equal sign" on this thing)



    [ 05-25-2002: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
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  • Reply 40 of 49
    airslufairsluf Posts: 1,861member
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