What's been buggy for you? I haven't noticed anything yet.
The Music app was super buggy (lots of crashes) until I fully disabled Apple Music and Connect. iMessage is back to being buggy. Battery life has dropped as well, especially on my iPhone. Cell reception has decreased on my iPhone (I suppose they could have updated the algorhithm again) It's not as bad as 8.0 and 8.1.
You do not own anything but the brick that you purchased. Every single function piece of software on the device belongs to Apple and is subject to their will and whim.
I blame the jailbreak community for giving the wrong impression and intentionally blurring the lines between owning the brick you bought at the store and owning the software installed on it.
If you choose to hack the device, and run whatever POS you want...that is your right.
If you choose to run Apple-sanctioned software, you have no rights to it whatsoever.
What are you smoking?
For one, when I buy the phone, I buy the complete phone, including the software (this individual copy). I do not have intellectual rights over the software, and, except as covered by contract law, I cannot mandate what Apple does with iOS. But that instance of the software is under my control on my phone. (Read below)
Apple does not have to support anything I do outside of whatever agreements are attached with the use of that software. I never claimed that they did. And I also said I understood about blocking downgrades (officially). I don't have any problem with that. But Apple has no right to come on to my phone and change that software without my permission. No upgrades without permission and no forced upgrades, in other words.
I have never jail broken a phone, and have no desire to. And I tend to upgrade somewhat regularly, after a while, all my devices, though I do have some older iOS versions on some devices to test with.
Nope, in fact they should be even more aggressive about preventing it. Its their software, not yours. Its not your choice what OS runs on your device, nor should it be.
Users are the absolute last people in the world that should be making that choice.
That is just crazy. If Apple moved in that direction they would lose any user that still valued personal freedom. The more I think about it I suspect it's time to think about alternatives after more than 35 years of being an Apple user. I really don't feel as comfortable with either Apple as a company or, in fact, the general Apple user community. It has become a little crazy and not in a good way.
Here is a hand, let me help you off your high horse.
I never said a thing about changing the software and I also said nothing against blocking downgrades.
I merely said, rightly, that the phone is mine and if I don't want to upgrade it, Apple should not be able to force me.
Slurp's point is that you don't own it, its not your phone. You are licensing it. I think that's right, anyway. Just like "owning" a blu-ray copy of a disc gives you no right to change it. You own a blank disc and license the content on it that is limited (i.e. you can't burn it, rip it, and put it on the internet)
So i guess Apple has every right to do what they are doing, but they also should act in a way that doesn't alienate user base.
That is just crazy. If Apple moved in that direction they would lose any user that still valued personal freedom. The more I think about it I suspect it's time to think about alternatives after more than 35 years of being an Apple user. I really don't feel as comfortable with either Apple as a company or, in fact, the general Apple user community. It has become a little crazy and not in a good way.
Windows 10 is excellent, I must say. Glad to see I'm not the only one getting a little uncomfortable here.
Slurp's point is that you don't own it, its not your phone. You are licensing it. I think that's right, anyway. Just like "owning" a blu-ray copy of a disc gives you no right to change it. You own a blank disc and license the content on it that is limited (i.e. you can't burn it, rip it, and put it on the internet)
So i guess Apple has every right to do what they are doing, but they also should act in a way that doesn't alienate user base.
But it IS my phone. I have a bill of sale and receipt. I am not claiming intellectual property ownership of the software, but I am claiming control rights to the copy on my phone. Apple can change iOS all they want, but they cannot go on to MY phone without my permission and upgrade it without my permission. That is all I am saying. I am not making any claims otherwise.
A user buys their device (e.g. iPhone). Decides they don't want to upgrade their software (iOS).
An exploit (software/iOS) is found which an external entity uses to cause the iPhone to over heat; an exploit which was patched in later versions of the software. Or better yet, say an exploit which results in the hacking of users' iPhone and theft of sensitive personal data leading to significant financial heartache (identify theft, weeks/months/years, of trying to undo the damage done, getting your money back etc)
Who will (a majority of) users go after when their un-updated/upgraded OS version is exploited and destroys their hardware? Would they still remember that they were the ones who didn't want to update, because of what ever preference (legitimate or not)?
Another thing with everyone who says that it's their hardware and should do as with please with; does that mean that you would waive the hardware warranty Apple has to legally provide to you? Because the device was functioning as expected on the day you purchased it?
That is just crazy. If Apple moved in that direction they would lose any user that still valued personal freedom. The more I think about it I suspect it's time to think about alternatives after more than 35 years of being an Apple user. I really don't feel as comfortable with either Apple as a company or, in fact, the general Apple user community. It has become a little crazy and not in a good way.
Sorry to have to tell you this, but this forum is not the "general Apple user community." Apple sells a couple hundred million iOS devices each year and that community of Apple users is as varied as any large community is.
But it IS my phone. I have a bill of sale and receipt. I am not claiming intellectual property ownership of the software, but I am claiming control rights to the copy on my phone. Apple can change iOS all they want, but they cannot go on to MY phone without my permission and upgrade it without my permission. That is all I am saying. I am not making any claims otherwise.
It is your phone, but you don't own the software... I'm not a lawyer by any means and I wont even pretend to have read those agreements I always hit 'Accept' to, but I'd bet that somewhere in there, it probably says something that you don't like that doesnt legally support the statement you just made.
Something along the lines of: that they can connect to *your* hardware, and do as they please with with *their* software on it, to some extent...
It is your phone, but you don't own the software... I'm not a lawyer by any means and I wont even pretend to have read those agreements I always hit 'Accept' to, but I'd bet that somewhere in there, it probably says something that you don't like that doesnt legally support the statement you just made.
Something along the lines of: that they can connect to *your* hardware, and what as they please with with *their* software on it, to some extent...
Have you read what I said? I never claimed IP ownership. That is what people are meaning when they say "Apple owns the software." I claimed "usage" ownership of the software on my phone. In order to updated it they have to connect to MY HW and they don't have permission to do so until I give it.
Please show me somewhere in any of the long EULA or other agreements Apple has that allows them to access the phone without permission in order to update the software.
The phone is sold as a whole, including the software, when I bought it. The phone does not function without the software. The Apple PR for the phone, in the store.apple.com promotional pages, says that the phone includes iOS 8. The phone is a whole item. Again, not claiming any IP ownership of the software, but the phone they sold with certain capabilities is sold with the software as an integral whole.
But it IS my phone. I have a bill of sale and receipt. I am not claiming intellectual property ownership of the software, but I am claiming control rights to the copy on my phone. Apple can change iOS all they want, but they cannot go on to MY phone without my permission and upgrade it without my permission. That is all I am saying. I am not making any claims otherwise.
I get your point; i just don't think that's true! Of course I'm just guessing. Your bill is for licensing the software (edit: and owning the hardware, which means you can put stickers/paint the surface etc.); It is no different from licensing Adobe Photoshop (even though you "own" the disc the software you are licensing came on). I'm sure in the 894 pages of uppercase prose in the EULA says something like that.
I get your point; i just don't think that's true! Of course I'm just guessing. Your bill is for licensing the software, no different from licensing Adobe Photoshop (even though you "own" the disc). I'm sure in the 894 pages of uppercase prose in the EULA says something like that.
Show me the text in the EULA or other agreement then. iOS is sold as an integral part of the phone I bought. I understand what you say about "licensing" -- that is the IP ownership, which I never claimed was any different than that. But as an integral part of the phone (go look at the marketing copy for the iPhone -- it is sold as an integral whole) the copy on the phone is "mine" in terms of control of that copy. Otherwise Apple would probably run afoul of consumer protection laws since they are selling something without disclosing the terms on the box that would say otherwise.
Have you read what I said? I never claimed IP ownership. That is what people are meaning when they say "Apple owns the software." I claimed "usage" ownership of the software on my phone. In order to updated it they have to connect to MY HW and they don't have permission to do so until I give it.
Please show me somewhere in any of the long EULA or other agreements Apple has that allows them to access the phone without permission in order to update the software.
The phone is sold as a whole, including the software, when I bought it. The phone does not function without the software. The Apple PR for the phone, in the store.apple.com promotional pages, says that the phone includes iOS 8. The phone is a whole item. Again, not claiming any IP ownership of the software, but the phone they sold with certain capabilities is sold with the software as an integral whole.
Relax dude - I did read what you said. I did see that you didn't claim IP ownership; I was just beating a dead horse.
I wont attempt to go through the EULA. If you read what I said (jk, ) I said that *it probably* says something in there that disagrees with you.
But to my last point then, if the phone is as you bought it, functional as expected, Apple wouldn't legally owe anything to anyone, or be responsible for anything after the purchase, and that just isn't the case whether we like it or not.
But to my last point then, if the phone is as you bought it, functional as expected, Apple wouldn't legally owe anything to anyone, or be responsible for anything after the purchase, and that just isn't the case whether we like it or not.
Uhm, they include a warranty AS PART OF THE PURCHASE. 1 YEAR. So ignoring any consumer protection laws, Apple provides the warranty as part of the purchase.
Wow, so I paid for it but can't choose what to run on it? You know what, Apple does NOT know best. They are a company, with both smart and extremely stupid people working for them. I paid for the device, I will choose what I do with it. If I want to code/design my own ASIC and run Windows 10 on my iPhone, that is my right. Apple does not own me.
You're probably going to want to go ahead and get a different type of phone then, buddy. You can do what ever you want, but don't get all upset if Apple doesn't cover your warranty or if you can't do something that they never promised it could do.
Uhm, they include a warranty AS PART OF THE PURCHASE. 1 YEAR. So ignoring any consumer protection laws, Apple provides the warranty as part of the purchase.
Yeah, 1 Year in some areas, more in others. But when defects are found after that year or more (recent MacBook graphics card issues) and enough people make noise (as they should), Apple is still accountable, even though those people understood AS PART OF THE PURCHASE, no? You're saying the could and should just walk way, but corporate overloads sometimes care about repeat and happy customers. So they provide software updates with features (and security updates), that yes, sometimes don't make everyone happy... ? I get your point, they shouldn't be forced on you.
I'm waiving the white flag on this. Again, just trying to have some serious discussion points.
Comments
The Music app was super buggy (lots of crashes) until I fully disabled Apple Music and Connect. iMessage is back to being buggy. Battery life has dropped as well, especially on my iPhone. Cell reception has decreased on my iPhone (I suppose they could have updated the algorhithm again) It's not as bad as 8.0 and 8.1.
You do not own anything but the brick that you purchased. Every single function piece of software on the device belongs to Apple and is subject to their will and whim.
I blame the jailbreak community for giving the wrong impression and intentionally blurring the lines between owning the brick you bought at the store and owning the software installed on it.
If you choose to hack the device, and run whatever POS you want...that is your right.
If you choose to run Apple-sanctioned software, you have no rights to it whatsoever.
What are you smoking?
For one, when I buy the phone, I buy the complete phone, including the software (this individual copy). I do not have intellectual rights over the software, and, except as covered by contract law, I cannot mandate what Apple does with iOS. But that instance of the software is under my control on my phone. (Read below)
Apple does not have to support anything I do outside of whatever agreements are attached with the use of that software. I never claimed that they did. And I also said I understood about blocking downgrades (officially). I don't have any problem with that. But Apple has no right to come on to my phone and change that software without my permission. No upgrades without permission and no forced upgrades, in other words.
I have never jail broken a phone, and have no desire to. And I tend to upgrade somewhat regularly, after a while, all my devices, though I do have some older iOS versions on some devices to test with.
That is just crazy. If Apple moved in that direction they would lose any user that still valued personal freedom. The more I think about it I suspect it's time to think about alternatives after more than 35 years of being an Apple user. I really don't feel as comfortable with either Apple as a company or, in fact, the general Apple user community. It has become a little crazy and not in a good way.
Here is a hand, let me help you off your high horse.
I never said a thing about changing the software and I also said nothing against blocking downgrades.
I merely said, rightly, that the phone is mine and if I don't want to upgrade it, Apple should not be able to force me.
Slurp's point is that you don't own it, its not your phone. You are licensing it. I think that's right, anyway. Just like "owning" a blu-ray copy of a disc gives you no right to change it. You own a blank disc and license the content on it that is limited (i.e. you can't burn it, rip it, and put it on the internet)
So i guess Apple has every right to do what they are doing, but they also should act in a way that doesn't alienate user base.
9 can't get here soon enough. 8.4 is a bit buggy.
Nonsense. No such thing as bug free software but 8.4 is about as stable as it gets.
Windows 10 is excellent, I must say. Glad to see I'm not the only one getting a little uncomfortable here.
Wow...just wow...all hail our corporate overlords I guess?
Apple stopped signing 8.3 and you can no longer downgrade. What do YOU plan to do about it?
Slurp's point is that you don't own it, its not your phone. You are licensing it. I think that's right, anyway. Just like "owning" a blu-ray copy of a disc gives you no right to change it. You own a blank disc and license the content on it that is limited (i.e. you can't burn it, rip it, and put it on the internet)
So i guess Apple has every right to do what they are doing, but they also should act in a way that doesn't alienate user base.
But it IS my phone. I have a bill of sale and receipt. I am not claiming intellectual property ownership of the software, but I am claiming control rights to the copy on my phone. Apple can change iOS all they want, but they cannot go on to MY phone without my permission and upgrade it without my permission. That is all I am saying. I am not making any claims otherwise.
Serious question(s):
A user buys their device (e.g. iPhone). Decides they don't want to upgrade their software (iOS).
An exploit (software/iOS) is found which an external entity uses to cause the iPhone to over heat; an exploit which was patched in later versions of the software. Or better yet, say an exploit which results in the hacking of users' iPhone and theft of sensitive personal data leading to significant financial heartache (identify theft, weeks/months/years, of trying to undo the damage done, getting your money back etc)
Who will (a majority of) users go after when their un-updated/upgraded OS version is exploited and destroys their hardware? Would they still remember that they were the ones who didn't want to update, because of what ever preference (legitimate or not)?
Another thing with everyone who says that it's their hardware and should do as with please with; does that mean that you would waive the hardware warranty Apple has to legally provide to you? Because the device was functioning as expected on the day you purchased it?
P.S. Serious discussion points; please respond accordingly (seriously).
That is just crazy. If Apple moved in that direction they would lose any user that still valued personal freedom. The more I think about it I suspect it's time to think about alternatives after more than 35 years of being an Apple user. I really don't feel as comfortable with either Apple as a company or, in fact, the general Apple user community. It has become a little crazy and not in a good way.
Sorry to have to tell you this, but this forum is not the "general Apple user community." Apple sells a couple hundred million iOS devices each year and that community of Apple users is as varied as any large community is.
But it IS my phone. I have a bill of sale and receipt. I am not claiming intellectual property ownership of the software, but I am claiming control rights to the copy on my phone. Apple can change iOS all they want, but they cannot go on to MY phone without my permission and upgrade it without my permission. That is all I am saying. I am not making any claims otherwise.
It is your phone, but you don't own the software... I'm not a lawyer by any means and I wont even pretend to have read those agreements I always hit 'Accept' to, but I'd bet that somewhere in there, it probably says something that you don't like that doesnt legally support the statement you just made.
Something along the lines of: that they can connect to *your* hardware, and do as they please with with *their* software on it, to some extent...
It is your phone, but you don't own the software... I'm not a lawyer by any means and I wont even pretend to have read those agreements I always hit 'Accept' to, but I'd bet that somewhere in there, it probably says something that you don't like that doesnt legally support the statement you just made.
Something along the lines of: that they can connect to *your* hardware, and what as they please with with *their* software on it, to some extent...
Have you read what I said? I never claimed IP ownership. That is what people are meaning when they say "Apple owns the software." I claimed "usage" ownership of the software on my phone. In order to updated it they have to connect to MY HW and they don't have permission to do so until I give it.
Please show me somewhere in any of the long EULA or other agreements Apple has that allows them to access the phone without permission in order to update the software.
The phone is sold as a whole, including the software, when I bought it. The phone does not function without the software. The Apple PR for the phone, in the store.apple.com promotional pages, says that the phone includes iOS 8. The phone is a whole item. Again, not claiming any IP ownership of the software, but the phone they sold with certain capabilities is sold with the software as an integral whole.
But it IS my phone. I have a bill of sale and receipt. I am not claiming intellectual property ownership of the software, but I am claiming control rights to the copy on my phone. Apple can change iOS all they want, but they cannot go on to MY phone without my permission and upgrade it without my permission. That is all I am saying. I am not making any claims otherwise.
I get your point; i just don't think that's true! Of course I'm just guessing. Your bill is for licensing the software (edit: and owning the hardware, which means you can put stickers/paint the surface etc.); It is no different from licensing Adobe Photoshop (even though you "own" the disc the software you are licensing came on). I'm sure in the 894 pages of uppercase prose in the EULA says something like that.
I get your point; i just don't think that's true! Of course I'm just guessing. Your bill is for licensing the software, no different from licensing Adobe Photoshop (even though you "own" the disc). I'm sure in the 894 pages of uppercase prose in the EULA says something like that.
Show me the text in the EULA or other agreement then. iOS is sold as an integral part of the phone I bought. I understand what you say about "licensing" -- that is the IP ownership, which I never claimed was any different than that. But as an integral part of the phone (go look at the marketing copy for the iPhone -- it is sold as an integral whole) the copy on the phone is "mine" in terms of control of that copy. Otherwise Apple would probably run afoul of consumer protection laws since they are selling something without disclosing the terms on the box that would say otherwise.
Read the iphone "user agreement" ... I bet we signed away most of our "rights" when we accepted...
Show me exactly where in the agreement we signed away control rights over the phone.
Have you read what I said? I never claimed IP ownership. That is what people are meaning when they say "Apple owns the software." I claimed "usage" ownership of the software on my phone. In order to updated it they have to connect to MY HW and they don't have permission to do so until I give it.
Please show me somewhere in any of the long EULA or other agreements Apple has that allows them to access the phone without permission in order to update the software.
The phone is sold as a whole, including the software, when I bought it. The phone does not function without the software. The Apple PR for the phone, in the store.apple.com promotional pages, says that the phone includes iOS 8. The phone is a whole item. Again, not claiming any IP ownership of the software, but the phone they sold with certain capabilities is sold with the software as an integral whole.
Relax dude - I did read what you said. I did see that you didn't claim IP ownership; I was just beating a dead horse.
I wont attempt to go through the EULA. If you read what I said (jk,
) I said that *it probably* says something in there that disagrees with you.
But to my last point then, if the phone is as you bought it, functional as expected, Apple wouldn't legally owe anything to anyone, or be responsible for anything after the purchase, and that just isn't the case whether we like it or not.
But to my last point then, if the phone is as you bought it, functional as expected, Apple wouldn't legally owe anything to anyone, or be responsible for anything after the purchase, and that just isn't the case whether we like it or not.
Uhm, they include a warranty AS PART OF THE PURCHASE. 1 YEAR. So ignoring any consumer protection laws, Apple provides the warranty as part of the purchase.
Par for the course, it seems.
Wow, so I paid for it but can't choose what to run on it? You know what, Apple does NOT know best. They are a company, with both smart and extremely stupid people working for them. I paid for the device, I will choose what I do with it. If I want to code/design my own ASIC and run Windows 10 on my iPhone, that is my right. Apple does not own me.
You're probably going to want to go ahead and get a different type of phone then, buddy. You can do what ever you want, but don't get all upset if Apple doesn't cover your warranty or if you can't do something that they never promised it could do.
Uhm, they include a warranty AS PART OF THE PURCHASE. 1 YEAR. So ignoring any consumer protection laws, Apple provides the warranty as part of the purchase.
Yeah, 1 Year in some areas, more in others. But when defects are found after that year or more (recent MacBook graphics card issues) and enough people make noise (as they should), Apple is still accountable, even though those people understood AS PART OF THE PURCHASE, no? You're saying the could and should just walk way, but corporate overloads sometimes care about repeat and happy customers. So they provide software updates with features (and security updates), that yes, sometimes don't make everyone happy... ? I get your point, they shouldn't be forced on you.
I'm waiving the white flag on this. Again, just trying to have some serious discussion points.