If they win this class action, all retail chains will be sued next because they implement the same method.
My prediction: it ain't. Will get thrown out...it's stupid.
Didn't Amazon already fight this same thing and win!!!
I can understand that Apple wants to minimize theft by their employees. If they are expected to wait for an inspection to leave the store it should be on Apple's dime. Inspections shouldn't be necessary unless there has been a loss of inventory. If you're hiring employees that can't be trusted and you haven't done a background check on them then you should take a look at your hiring practices. The inspection process indicates to me that there are severe penalties for store managers for inventory losses.
I work in a high-sports store. There are many valuable items (hundreds of dollars) that could be put in an employees pocket. Employees are never inspected when leaving for break or at the end of our shift. If we were we would be on the clock since the time-clock is located in another area near lockers that we can store our packs and jackets in.
Probaly searches are common practice in your country. Is theft so common?
In my country it is a nonsense: you perform accurate selection of personnel, you train them to do their best to sell your stuff, you give them responsibility to literally build your profits... but you cannot trust them.
There are few countries in which retail theft isn't an issue. The US isn't unique in this respect.
A bunch of nonsense over nothing! I worked Apple retail for years, and it wasn't more than a couple of minutes that employees had to wait to get their bags checked, at the store I worked at! No one, EVER, had to wait fifteen minutes; this is a money grabbing attempt by whiny little kids!
The crazy thing is that this could all be fixed by technology. I wonder if Apple would ever be able to come up with a solution for that? WTF?
Did you know that each employee has to clock in by hand with a user name and a password before each shift begins/end or for each lunch break?
Here is another issue that takes employees time. When there are store meeting and your waiting to clock in over 200 people how long do you think that take? Its not fast and the software that runs this (not sure what it was but I think it was custom) often crashed or took 20 seconds to register the request.
Thousand upon thousands of hours wasted. If anyone want a look into Apple retail this is eye opener. Apple products, service and second to none but their management of the retail side is a failure on many levels. There treatment of employees a disgrace and it should come out how many hard working smart people we're taking advantage of since the inception. Some of the upper management should be outed here in these forums as they were horrible people and should never worked for such an innovating company.
Personally someone was asleep and the wheel and management for the most part was and still is horrible. I really wonder if Tim knows what's really going on in retail. Not the number but the people side...
If Apple employees don't want to be searched, maybe they should stop stealing millions of dollars of merchandise.
I continue to believe the New York stores have massive criminal activities there. It's ok because obviously Apple can afford the losses. But anyplace $1 million + per day of merchandise moves, in NY, you are going to have issues.
As expected, the anti-worker, pro-big-business types are out in force. It really is sad that you all side with those who make the rules and not those are subject to them. What happened to this country? We used to band together for good, but now employees are somehow all demonized for "being greedy" whereas corporations are sainted for "being profitable". But they're the same thing. You are all worker bees yourselves. Why are you so quick to cast stones at your fellow workers???
Are you all so myopic you can't see that what goes around comes around? At some point you will all be taken advantage of by your employers, and you're going to want other workers to stand up for you. But since you advocated they all be fired, good luck when that happens.
Are you saying that Apple (and other profitable employers) aren't subject to rules when it come to employees/employer relationship. Then you better read up on FLSA and the Portal to Portal Act of 1947 and the history behind them. The FLSA (and Portal to Portal Act of 1947) was pass to control both employees "greed" and employers quest for more "profit". The same laws that state that Apple must pay overtime after 8 hours, provide for a minimum 30 minutes lunch break (non pay) after 6 hours and 10 minutes breaks (paid) every 2 hours and a 40 hour work week comes from the same FLSA that states that Apple don't need to pay employees for the time it takes to search their bag. If Apple must follow the laws that are a benefit for the employees, then I see no problem with Apple following the laws that are a benefit to themselves.
The reason why so many here are on Apple side is because many of us here don't fall for your Union propaganda that all workers are saints and will always be taken advantage of by their employers.
The crazy thing is that this could all be fixed by technology. I wonder if Apple would ever be able to come up with a solution for that? WTF?
Did you know that each employee has to clock in by hand with a user name and a password before each shift begins/end or for each lunch break?
Here is another issue that takes employees time. When there are store meeting and your waiting to clock in over 200 people how long do you think that take? Its not fast and the software that runs this (not sure what it was but I think it was custom) often crashed or took 20 seconds to register the request.
Thousand upon thousands of hours wasted. If anyone want a look into Apple retail this is eye opener. Apple products, service and second to none but their management of the retail side is a failure on many levels. There treatment of employees a disgrace and it should come out how many hard working smart people we're taking advantage of since the inception. Some of the upper management should be outed here in these forums as they were horrible people and should never worked for such an innovating company.
Personally someone was asleep and the wheel and management for the most part was and still is horrible. I really wonder if Tim knows what's really going on in retail. Not the number but the people side...
The things is that it does not take employees time, pay wise. FLSA actually addresses the waiting time it takes to punch in and out. An employer is allow to round off an employees work day time to eight hours if it falls with in a 5 minutes leeway of eight hours. So an employee who has a starting time of 7:30AM but clocks in at 7:33, because of the waiting time it took to clock in, will be paid for a full eight hour day (if he were to clock out on time.) . The same would be true for clocking out for lunch. The lunch break begins the moment an employee clocks out, not at the time the employee got in line to the clock out. All waiting time at the clock, from the moment an employee clocks in to the moment an employee clocks out, is paid time. (So an employee will not be paid for waiting if he/she got to the time clock before the shift begins.)
On the other end when you clock out at the end of shift, many employers allow their employees to clock out a few minutes early so that the last employees waiting to clock out, can still clock out on time, without going over their end time. Those few minutes early are not docked from the employees pay.The extra time it may take to clock back in from lunch falls within the 5 minute leeway provided and will not be docked from the 8 hour work day of an employee.
The waiting time it takes to clock in and out is ALWAYS the employer's responsibility. If the all employees can't clock in and out with in that allowed 5 minute leeway, in an 8 hour work day, then the employer must provide more time clocks or pay for any extra time it takes for an employee to clock in on time outside the 5 minute leeway provided by FLSA.
From FLSA section 285.48 Use of Time Clocks
(b) “Rounding” practices. It has been found that in some industries, particularly where time clocks are used, there has been the practice for many years of recording the employees’ starting time and stopping time to the nearest 5 minutes, or to the nearest one-tenth or quarter of an hour. Presumably, this arrangement averages out so that the employees are fully compensated for all the time they actually work. For enforcement purposes this practice of computing working time will be accepted, provided that it is used in such a manner that it will not result, over a period of time, in failure to compensate the employees properly for all the time they have actually worked.
And by "worked" FLSA means from the time an employee clocks in to the time the employee clocks out. All that time in between is work by FLSA definition.
All that talk about the Millenials being lazy sounds very much to me like what these people who ruined the economy with their greed (80/90s people) or these Yippies from the 60s and 70s who dilapidated all the planet resources would say.
Generational smack-talking isn't very productive, even though it might be the most classical of all human past-times.
Second.
I find astonishing all the people who think it's perfectly normal to have mandatory work procedures that are not part of work.
A- Everyone here seems to agree that Apple lost to Amazon( or was it the DoJ... ahem) on the monopoly suit because Amazon is extremely good at power-playing politics. Seems obvious that these employees did not stand a chance where Apple didn't... right?
B- If time spent by workers waiting to undergo anti-employee theft security screenings is not "integral and indispensable" to their work, and thus not compensable, then workers should be allowed to just ignore it. You're not paid, you walk out of it without breach of your contract.
C- Special for Razormaid: Paid vacations (or even the concept of vacation) comes from the hard-won fights of the French workers.
Vacations are an integral part of the economy, with such unimportant things as "tourism" and "leisure" industries, as well as the strengthening of the middle class. Also, the French have the world's best time-to-work efficiency rate in the world. These people might benefit from being trained in France, indeed, but I doubt that's how you were thinking of it. France isn't some place for lazy people, or it wouldn't be so highly ranked among nations one economic criteria. Wikipedia: France has the world's sixth-largest economy by nominal figures and the ninth largest economy by PPP figures.
In truth, people are so desperate for a job in an economy with massive unemployment (if we're still in generational-conflict mode, let me add: which is what the Millenials have to cope with thanks to the previous generations laziness and utter disregard for their social duties...) that it's become acceptable to do much more than your job to keep your job. A job is a simple social thing: it's an agreement to be paid in exchange for your valuable time, skills and effort. Note that on top of it, both employers and workers may contribute money towards the rest of society, through taxes and social dues, depending on the country this happens in. A liberal country will be more inclined to have little tax and rely on random generosity, while a socialist country will have more propensity to systemize those contributions. Both ways have defenders, everyone knows I'm in favour of the latter, but this is irrelevant to the current discussion.
Here, the courts seem to have decided that a job only should get you paid for time, effort and skills that are "integral and indispensable" to the company's goals, but the worker should still provide time and effort for free. This sounds weird and wrong to me, exactly like if Apple had to provide payment facilities for me for free (Apple can provide such facilities, and indeed they do twice a year, but it's not mandatory... and that's not the point, sorry). I actually hope this decision is repelled, because any kind of time that an employer require from a worker should be compensated for.
What's next? If the boss needs some relief, sexual services should be offered for free? After all, that would not be "integral and indispensable" to the job, right? I know that mention of sex, for Americans, always is a wake-up-call, so I'm hopeful this example makes it painfully obvious why this decision sounds so wrong... Also, notice I used "sounds" and "seems", due to the fact that the whole decision falls into a domain that is, if not alien, at least not the bread-and-butter of mostly everyone here. If anyone is an expert in American work laws, he definitely should explain why, if so, this ISS/Busk decision is a logical decision in the American work ecosystem.
And by "worked" FLSA means from the time an employee clocks in to the time the employee clocks out. All that time in between is work by FLSA definition.
That sounds like a very logical and appropriate definition, designed to adequately protect both parties...
What's next? If the boss needs some relief, sexual services should be offered for free? After all, that would not be "integral and indispensable" to the job, right? I know that mention of sex, for Americans, always is a wake-up-call, so I'm hopeful this example makes it painfully obvious why this decision sounds so wrong... Also, notice I used "sounds" and "seems", due to the fact that the whole decision falls into a domain that is, if not alien, at least not the bread-and-butter of mostly everyone here. If anyone is an expert in American work laws, he definitely should explain why, if so, this ISS/Busk decision is a logical decision in the American work ecosystem.
Your reasoning is putting the cart before the horse. Apple does not require any of their employees to bring a bag to work. Bags are not require in the workplace. (Other than maybe a small purse or small lunch chest.) An employee can avoid a bag search simply by not bringing a bag to work. Apple do not make them bring a bag to work. If an employee needs to bring a bag that requires searching to work, then that employee should be grateful that Apple allows for that. Apple can simply ban all bags from the workplace because it's an inconvenience for them to have to do a search on each bag their employees brings in. Even if it's done on the employee's time.
So your scenario of a boss requiring sexual service off the clock is way off because with a bag, the employee made the choice to bring a bag to work. It doesn't matter the reason, but none of it was because Apple required them to. Therefore, that employee subjected himself to the required bag search, after clocking out. Would the employee rather have Apple not allow him/her to bring a bag to work at all? I wouldn't think so. Plus there are already laws in place to protect employees from your scenario. Ever hear of sexual harassment in the workplace? In many workplaces, the boss is not even allowed to date any of the employees under him/her.
Now lets see what happens if they rule that bag searches had to done on the clock. So what's to prevent all the employees from bringing a bag to work, that is not needed for work. How much time will it now take for Apple to search all bags if every employee brings a bag to work? Apple would have to have their employees line up an hour before quitting time, so that all the employees can leave on time. Either that or hire more people to do the search. Otherwise Apple will end up having to pay OT. You don't think the employees will take advantage of such a ruling? This is where FLSA protects the employer from the greed of the workers.
Right now Apple allows their employees to bring a bag to work. Apple do not want to inconvenience the employees that may have classes after work (or before work), did some shopping at the mall before work or during lunch, need a change of clothes for another job after work, etc. and they commuted to work by bus or bicycle or scooter or had someone drive them to work. Therefore, they can not leave their bags in a car. The least these employees can do is not require Apple pay them for searching such a bag.
As all the Supreme Court Justices already ruled, search is not an integral and indispensable part of the job that you were hired to do, unless the search involves items that is required for you to do your that job. Therefore the time it takes for the search is not compensatable under FLSA. If Apple requires that bag for your job, then under FLSA, they must pay you for the time it takes to do the search. The bag would be considered an integral and indispensable to your job.
Your reasoning is putting the cart before the horse. Apple does not require any of their employees to bring a bag to work. Bags are not require in the workplace. (Other than maybe a small purse or small lunch chest.) An employee can avoid a bag search simply by not bringing a bag to work. Apple do not make them bring a bag to work. If an employee needs to bring a bag that requires searching to work, then that employee should be grateful that Apple allows for that. Apple can simply ban all bags from the workplace because it's an inconvenience for them to have to do a search on each bag an employees brings. Even if it's done on the employee's time.
Yeah, I don't see the work time issue as being any different than someone who works in an office building with a large parking garage. The bag check would take much less time than driving up 7 flights of ramps, parking, and finding your way to the workplace. The employee could similarly avoid this by not driving to work.
Its not just a bag check. Even if you don't bring a bag you must find a managers and check out so you can't skip this step by not bringing a bag. If you don't check with a manager your fired EVEN IF YOU DON"T HAVE A BAG!
Also each and every device you have must be check against your serial numbers and your technology card. So how many Apple employees carry and iPhone/Watch or other apple device. Have you ever tried to read the serial number on Apple devices? Also there on the back on phone so each person has to take their off before the manager can see the number.
Do you guys see how the time just adds up? I don't understand why you don't get this?
Its not just a bag check. Even if you don't bring a bag you must find a managers and check out so you can't skip this step by not bringing a bag. If you don't check with a manager your fired EVEN IF YOU DON"T HAVE A BAG!
Also each and every device you have must be check against your serial numbers and your technology card. So how many Apple employees carry and iPhone/Watch or other apple device. Have you ever tried to read the serial number on Apple devices? Also there on the back on phone so each person has to take their off before the manager can see the number.
Do you guys see how the time just adds up? I don't understand why you don't get this?
If that's the case, Apple definitely should lose or settle and make the process much smoother. Again, I can't see a justification for only having a manager perform the checks. Every store has an assistant manager, supervisors and security personnel. They all should be a part of the process. If I had to wait 10-20 minutes each and every day, your ass is paying me for my time. I usually don't carry a bag onto work premises or if I do, it's so small and would require all of five seconds to inspect. If my phone and iPod and other devises had to have serial numbers checked it would easily take minutes, not counting the time to have a store manager to get his ass over to the employee area.
Limiting shrink as a result of employee theft is integral to Apple's margins/profits. So employee checks should be paid. I just don't see why a company that prides itself on doing the right thing is engaging in such a dick move. It's telling that a judge granted this class status.
Its not just a bag check. Even if you don't bring a bag you must find a managers and check out so you can't skip this step by not bringing a bag. If you don't check with a manager your fired EVEN IF YOU DON"T HAVE A BAG!
Also each and every device you have must be check against your serial numbers and your technology card. So how many Apple employees carry and iPhone/Watch or other apple device. Have you ever tried to read the serial number on Apple devices? Also there on the back on phone so each person has to take their off before the manager can see the number.
Do you guys see how the time just adds up? I don't understand why you don't get this?
It takes about 1 minute per level to drive an average parking garage at the posted 5mph. So 5 stories up is 10 minutes round-trip. Can I sue my employer now?
Its not just a bag check. Even if you don't bring a bag you must find a managers and check out so you can't skip this step by not bringing a bag. If you don't check with a manager your fired EVEN IF YOU DON"T HAVE A BAG!
Well, good. That completely and utterly destroys the lawsuit. This is new information that I don’t think we’ve seen yet.
Do you guys see how the time just adds up?
Do you see that employee theft is a huge portion of retail theft and that Apple is a secretive company?
I don't understand why you don't get this?
I don’t understand why you think you have the right to just waltz out of a store with stolen merchandise.
Its not just a bag check. Even if you don't bring a bag you must find a managers and check out so you can't skip this step by not bringing a bag. If you don't check with a manager your fired EVEN IF YOU DON"T HAVE A BAG!
Also each and every device you have must be check against your serial numbers and your technology card. So how many Apple employees carry and iPhone/Watch or other apple device. Have you ever tried to read the serial number on Apple devices? Also there on the back on phone so each person has to take their off before the manager can see the number.
Do you guys see how the time just adds up? I don't understand why you don't get this?
It doesn't matter if you don't have a bag that needs searching. The time it takes for the search itself is non compensable time under FLSA, regardless of what needs to be search or the time it takes. This is the unanimous interpretation of the FLSA (and Portal to Portal Act of 1947) by the current US Supreme Court. The time it takes for the search is not a matter for the courts to decide. That is an issue that should be brought to the bargaining table of the employer not the courts. The only thing that matters to the courts is the search itself.
Just because the search may take longer than an employee may want, it doesn't in anyway mean that the employer must compensate the employees for the time it takes for the search. To FLSA, the time it takes for the search is no different than the non-compensable time it takes for an employee working on the 20th floor or a worker in an auto plant having to walk the distance of a football field to exit the building, after clocking out. Non-compensable time under FLSA is non-compensable no matter how much time it is.
Comments
Didn't Amazon already fight this same thing and win!!!
I can understand that Apple wants to minimize theft by their employees. If they are expected to wait for an inspection to leave the store it should be on Apple's dime. Inspections shouldn't be necessary unless there has been a loss of inventory. If you're hiring employees that can't be trusted and you haven't done a background check on them then you should take a look at your hiring practices. The inspection process indicates to me that there are severe penalties for store managers for inventory losses.
I work in a high-sports store. There are many valuable items (hundreds of dollars) that could be put in an employees pocket. Employees are never inspected when leaving for break or at the end of our shift. If we were we would be on the clock since the time-clock is located in another area near lockers that we can store our packs and jackets in.
Probaly searches are common practice in your country. Is theft so common?
In my country it is a nonsense: you perform accurate selection of personnel, you train them to do their best to sell your stuff, you give them responsibility to literally build your profits... but you cannot trust them.
There are few countries in which retail theft isn't an issue. The US isn't unique in this respect.
The crazy thing is that this could all be fixed by technology. I wonder if Apple would ever be able to come up with a solution for that? WTF?
Did you know that each employee has to clock in by hand with a user name and a password before each shift begins/end or for each lunch break?
Here is another issue that takes employees time. When there are store meeting and your waiting to clock in over 200 people how long do you think that take? Its not fast and the software that runs this (not sure what it was but I think it was custom) often crashed or took 20 seconds to register the request.
Thousand upon thousands of hours wasted. If anyone want a look into Apple retail this is eye opener. Apple products, service and second to none but their management of the retail side is a failure on many levels. There treatment of employees a disgrace and it should come out how many hard working smart people we're taking advantage of since the inception. Some of the upper management should be outed here in these forums as they were horrible people and should never worked for such an innovating company.
Personally someone was asleep and the wheel and management for the most part was and still is horrible. I really wonder if Tim knows what's really going on in retail. Not the number but the people side...
If Apple employees don't want to be searched, maybe they should stop stealing millions of dollars of merchandise.
I continue to believe the New York stores have massive criminal activities there. It's ok because obviously Apple can afford the losses. But anyplace $1 million + per day of merchandise moves, in NY, you are going to have issues.
As expected, the anti-worker, pro-big-business types are out in force. It really is sad that you all side with those who make the rules and not those are subject to them. What happened to this country? We used to band together for good, but now employees are somehow all demonized for "being greedy" whereas corporations are sainted for "being profitable". But they're the same thing. You are all worker bees yourselves. Why are you so quick to cast stones at your fellow workers???
Are you all so myopic you can't see that what goes around comes around? At some point you will all be taken advantage of by your employers, and you're going to want other workers to stand up for you. But since you advocated they all be fired, good luck when that happens.
Are you saying that Apple (and other profitable employers) aren't subject to rules when it come to employees/employer relationship. Then you better read up on FLSA and the Portal to Portal Act of 1947 and the history behind them. The FLSA (and Portal to Portal Act of 1947) was pass to control both employees "greed" and employers quest for more "profit". The same laws that state that Apple must pay overtime after 8 hours, provide for a minimum 30 minutes lunch break (non pay) after 6 hours and 10 minutes breaks (paid) every 2 hours and a 40 hour work week comes from the same FLSA that states that Apple don't need to pay employees for the time it takes to search their bag. If Apple must follow the laws that are a benefit for the employees, then I see no problem with Apple following the laws that are a benefit to themselves.
The reason why so many here are on Apple side is because many of us here don't fall for your Union propaganda that all workers are saints and will always be taken advantage of by their employers.
When you grow up, you tend to find that saying things like this is embarrassing.
There’s a fair bit of interesting information coming up that removes the sarcasm from that statement.
Literally everyone who is literate and who can see the sheer amount of theft that is employee-instigated.
The crazy thing is that this could all be fixed by technology. I wonder if Apple would ever be able to come up with a solution for that? WTF?
Did you know that each employee has to clock in by hand with a user name and a password before each shift begins/end or for each lunch break?
Here is another issue that takes employees time. When there are store meeting and your waiting to clock in over 200 people how long do you think that take? Its not fast and the software that runs this (not sure what it was but I think it was custom) often crashed or took 20 seconds to register the request.
Thousand upon thousands of hours wasted. If anyone want a look into Apple retail this is eye opener. Apple products, service and second to none but their management of the retail side is a failure on many levels. There treatment of employees a disgrace and it should come out how many hard working smart people we're taking advantage of since the inception. Some of the upper management should be outed here in these forums as they were horrible people and should never worked for such an innovating company.
Personally someone was asleep and the wheel and management for the most part was and still is horrible. I really wonder if Tim knows what's really going on in retail. Not the number but the people side...
The things is that it does not take employees time, pay wise. FLSA actually addresses the waiting time it takes to punch in and out. An employer is allow to round off an employees work day time to eight hours if it falls with in a 5 minutes leeway of eight hours. So an employee who has a starting time of 7:30AM but clocks in at 7:33, because of the waiting time it took to clock in, will be paid for a full eight hour day (if he were to clock out on time.) . The same would be true for clocking out for lunch. The lunch break begins the moment an employee clocks out, not at the time the employee got in line to the clock out. All waiting time at the clock, from the moment an employee clocks in to the moment an employee clocks out, is paid time. (So an employee will not be paid for waiting if he/she got to the time clock before the shift begins.)
On the other end when you clock out at the end of shift, many employers allow their employees to clock out a few minutes early so that the last employees waiting to clock out, can still clock out on time, without going over their end time. Those few minutes early are not docked from the employees pay.The extra time it may take to clock back in from lunch falls within the 5 minute leeway provided and will not be docked from the 8 hour work day of an employee.
The waiting time it takes to clock in and out is ALWAYS the employer's responsibility. If the all employees can't clock in and out with in that allowed 5 minute leeway, in an 8 hour work day, then the employer must provide more time clocks or pay for any extra time it takes for an employee to clock in on time outside the 5 minute leeway provided by FLSA.
From FLSA section 285.48 Use of Time Clocks
(b) “Rounding” practices. It has been found that in some industries, particularly where time clocks are used, there has been the practice for many years of recording the employees’ starting time and stopping time to the nearest 5 minutes, or to the nearest one-tenth or quarter of an hour. Presumably, this arrangement averages out so that the employees are fully compensated for all the time they actually work. For enforcement purposes this practice of computing working time will be accepted, provided that it is used in such a manner that it will not result, over a period of time, in failure to compensate the employees properly for all the time they have actually worked.
And by "worked" FLSA means from the time an employee clocks in to the time the employee clocks out. All that time in between is work by FLSA definition.
That simple. I particularly find that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrity_Staffing_Solutions,_Inc._v._Busk decision scary.
A- Everyone here seems to agree that Apple lost to Amazon( or was it the DoJ... ahem) on the monopoly suit because Amazon is extremely good at power-playing politics. Seems obvious that these employees did not stand a chance where Apple didn't... right?
B- If time spent by workers waiting to undergo anti-employee theft security screenings is not "integral and indispensable" to their work, and thus not compensable, then workers should be allowed to just ignore it. You're not paid, you walk out of it without breach of your contract.
C- Special for Razormaid: Paid vacations (or even the concept of vacation) comes from the hard-won fights of the French workers.
Vacations are an integral part of the economy, with such unimportant things as "tourism" and "leisure" industries, as well as the strengthening of the middle class. Also, the French have the world's best time-to-work efficiency rate in the world. These people might benefit from being trained in France, indeed, but I doubt that's how you were thinking of it. France isn't some place for lazy people, or it wouldn't be so highly ranked among nations one economic criteria. Wikipedia: France has the world's sixth-largest economy by nominal figures and the ninth largest economy by PPP figures.
In truth, people are so desperate for a job in an economy with massive unemployment (if we're still in generational-conflict mode, let me add: which is what the Millenials have to cope with thanks to the previous generations laziness and utter disregard for their social duties...) that it's become acceptable to do much more than your job to keep your job. A job is a simple social thing: it's an agreement to be paid in exchange for your valuable time, skills and effort. Note that on top of it, both employers and workers may contribute money towards the rest of society, through taxes and social dues, depending on the country this happens in. A liberal country will be more inclined to have little tax and rely on random generosity, while a socialist country will have more propensity to systemize those contributions. Both ways have defenders, everyone knows I'm in favour of the latter, but this is irrelevant to the current discussion.
Here, the courts seem to have decided that a job only should get you paid for time, effort and skills that are "integral and indispensable" to the company's goals, but the worker should still provide time and effort for free. This sounds weird and wrong to me, exactly like if Apple had to provide payment facilities for me for free (Apple can provide such facilities, and indeed they do twice a year, but it's not mandatory... and that's not the point, sorry). I actually hope this decision is repelled, because any kind of time that an employer require from a worker should be compensated for.
What's next? If the boss needs some relief, sexual services should be offered for free? After all, that would not be "integral and indispensable" to the job, right? I know that mention of sex, for Americans, always is a wake-up-call, so I'm hopeful this example makes it painfully obvious why this decision sounds so wrong... Also, notice I used "sounds" and "seems", due to the fact that the whole decision falls into a domain that is, if not alien, at least not the bread-and-butter of mostly everyone here. If anyone is an expert in American work laws, he definitely should explain why, if so, this ISS/Busk decision is a logical decision in the American work ecosystem.
(...)
And by "worked" FLSA means from the time an employee clocks in to the time the employee clocks out. All that time in between is work by FLSA definition.
That sounds like a very logical and appropriate definition, designed to adequately protect both parties...
……….
What's next? If the boss needs some relief, sexual services should be offered for free? After all, that would not be "integral and indispensable" to the job, right? I know that mention of sex, for Americans, always is a wake-up-call, so I'm hopeful this example makes it painfully obvious why this decision sounds so wrong... Also, notice I used "sounds" and "seems", due to the fact that the whole decision falls into a domain that is, if not alien, at least not the bread-and-butter of mostly everyone here. If anyone is an expert in American work laws, he definitely should explain why, if so, this ISS/Busk decision is a logical decision in the American work ecosystem.
Your reasoning is putting the cart before the horse. Apple does not require any of their employees to bring a bag to work. Bags are not require in the workplace. (Other than maybe a small purse or small lunch chest.) An employee can avoid a bag search simply by not bringing a bag to work. Apple do not make them bring a bag to work. If an employee needs to bring a bag that requires searching to work, then that employee should be grateful that Apple allows for that. Apple can simply ban all bags from the workplace because it's an inconvenience for them to have to do a search on each bag their employees brings in. Even if it's done on the employee's time.
So your scenario of a boss requiring sexual service off the clock is way off because with a bag, the employee made the choice to bring a bag to work. It doesn't matter the reason, but none of it was because Apple required them to. Therefore, that employee subjected himself to the required bag search, after clocking out. Would the employee rather have Apple not allow him/her to bring a bag to work at all? I wouldn't think so. Plus there are already laws in place to protect employees from your scenario. Ever hear of sexual harassment in the workplace? In many workplaces, the boss is not even allowed to date any of the employees under him/her.
Now lets see what happens if they rule that bag searches had to done on the clock. So what's to prevent all the employees from bringing a bag to work, that is not needed for work. How much time will it now take for Apple to search all bags if every employee brings a bag to work? Apple would have to have their employees line up an hour before quitting time, so that all the employees can leave on time. Either that or hire more people to do the search. Otherwise Apple will end up having to pay OT. You don't think the employees will take advantage of such a ruling? This is where FLSA protects the employer from the greed of the workers.
Right now Apple allows their employees to bring a bag to work. Apple do not want to inconvenience the employees that may have classes after work (or before work), did some shopping at the mall before work or during lunch, need a change of clothes for another job after work, etc. and they commuted to work by bus or bicycle or scooter or had someone drive them to work. Therefore, they can not leave their bags in a car. The least these employees can do is not require Apple pay them for searching such a bag.
As all the Supreme Court Justices already ruled, search is not an integral and indispensable part of the job that you were hired to do, unless the search involves items that is required for you to do your that job. Therefore the time it takes for the search is not compensatable under FLSA. If Apple requires that bag for your job, then under FLSA, they must pay you for the time it takes to do the search. The bag would be considered an integral and indispensable to your job.
Your reasoning is putting the cart before the horse. Apple does not require any of their employees to bring a bag to work. Bags are not require in the workplace. (Other than maybe a small purse or small lunch chest.) An employee can avoid a bag search simply by not bringing a bag to work. Apple do not make them bring a bag to work. If an employee needs to bring a bag that requires searching to work, then that employee should be grateful that Apple allows for that. Apple can simply ban all bags from the workplace because it's an inconvenience for them to have to do a search on each bag an employees brings. Even if it's done on the employee's time.
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Yes, you have a very valid point, well explained.
Yeah, I don't see the work time issue as being any different than someone who works in an office building with a large parking garage. The bag check would take much less time than driving up 7 flights of ramps, parking, and finding your way to the workplace. The employee could similarly avoid this by not driving to work.
Ok there is some real confusion here.
Its not just a bag check. Even if you don't bring a bag you must find a managers and check out so you can't skip this step by not bringing a bag. If you don't check with a manager your fired EVEN IF YOU DON"T HAVE A BAG!
Also each and every device you have must be check against your serial numbers and your technology card. So how many Apple employees carry and iPhone/Watch or other apple device. Have you ever tried to read the serial number on Apple devices? Also there on the back on phone so each person has to take their off before the manager can see the number.
Do you guys see how the time just adds up? I don't understand why you don't get this?
Ok there is some real confusion here.
Its not just a bag check. Even if you don't bring a bag you must find a managers and check out so you can't skip this step by not bringing a bag. If you don't check with a manager your fired EVEN IF YOU DON"T HAVE A BAG!
Also each and every device you have must be check against your serial numbers and your technology card. So how many Apple employees carry and iPhone/Watch or other apple device. Have you ever tried to read the serial number on Apple devices? Also there on the back on phone so each person has to take their off before the manager can see the number.
Do you guys see how the time just adds up? I don't understand why you don't get this?
If that's the case, Apple definitely should lose or settle and make the process much smoother. Again, I can't see a justification for only having a manager perform the checks. Every store has an assistant manager, supervisors and security personnel. They all should be a part of the process. If I had to wait 10-20 minutes each and every day, your ass is paying me for my time. I usually don't carry a bag onto work premises or if I do, it's so small and would require all of five seconds to inspect. If my phone and iPod and other devises had to have serial numbers checked it would easily take minutes, not counting the time to have a store manager to get his ass over to the employee area.
Limiting shrink as a result of employee theft is integral to Apple's margins/profits. So employee checks should be paid. I just don't see why a company that prides itself on doing the right thing is engaging in such a dick move. It's telling that a judge granted this class status.
Ok there is some real confusion here.
Its not just a bag check. Even if you don't bring a bag you must find a managers and check out so you can't skip this step by not bringing a bag. If you don't check with a manager your fired EVEN IF YOU DON"T HAVE A BAG!
Also each and every device you have must be check against your serial numbers and your technology card. So how many Apple employees carry and iPhone/Watch or other apple device. Have you ever tried to read the serial number on Apple devices? Also there on the back on phone so each person has to take their off before the manager can see the number.
Do you guys see how the time just adds up? I don't understand why you don't get this?
It takes about 1 minute per level to drive an average parking garage at the posted 5mph. So 5 stories up is 10 minutes round-trip. Can I sue my employer now?
Well, good. That completely and utterly destroys the lawsuit. This is new information that I don’t think we’ve seen yet.
Do you see that employee theft is a huge portion of retail theft and that Apple is a secretive company?
I don’t understand why you think you have the right to just waltz out of a store with stolen merchandise.
Ok there is some real confusion here.
Its not just a bag check. Even if you don't bring a bag you must find a managers and check out so you can't skip this step by not bringing a bag. If you don't check with a manager your fired EVEN IF YOU DON"T HAVE A BAG!
Also each and every device you have must be check against your serial numbers and your technology card. So how many Apple employees carry and iPhone/Watch or other apple device. Have you ever tried to read the serial number on Apple devices? Also there on the back on phone so each person has to take their off before the manager can see the number.
Do you guys see how the time just adds up? I don't understand why you don't get this?
It doesn't matter if you don't have a bag that needs searching. The time it takes for the search itself is non compensable time under FLSA, regardless of what needs to be search or the time it takes. This is the unanimous interpretation of the FLSA (and Portal to Portal Act of 1947) by the current US Supreme Court. The time it takes for the search is not a matter for the courts to decide. That is an issue that should be brought to the bargaining table of the employer not the courts. The only thing that matters to the courts is the search itself.
Just because the search may take longer than an employee may want, it doesn't in anyway mean that the employer must compensate the employees for the time it takes for the search. To FLSA, the time it takes for the search is no different than the non-compensable time it takes for an employee working on the 20th floor or a worker in an auto plant having to walk the distance of a football field to exit the building, after clocking out. Non-compensable time under FLSA is non-compensable no matter how much time it is.
http://www.wagehourinsights.com/donning-and-doffing/unanimous-supreme-court-rules-employer-need-not-pay-for-worker-security-screenings-integrity-staffin/