Why aren't building codes updated to mandate either tankless water heaters in all new construction or insulated hot-water-loops?
All of the water that is wasted down the drain while waiting for it to warm up - that's low-hanging fruit if you're trying to conserve water, people!
In the future, thanks to global warming and air pollution legislation, tankless and tank gas water heaters will be banned. Electric heat pump heaters are a bit more efficient than gas, but they're slow, requiring tanks.
My home is three years old. I chose a conventional, storage tank water heater like most homes have for a number of reasons including:
1. Enough hot water for 2-3 showers if I lose the utility that heats the water.
2. The extra cost of an on-demand water heat would never reach the break-even point over its life.
3. Properly-sized plumbing with the use of a water manifold results in hot water reaching its destination quickly.
Using thermostatic shower valves that are "set it and forget it", I turn one one handle and by the time I step in the shower seconds later, the water is at my preset temperature.
All true and extremely good insulation on hot pipes too. In a very cold climate I wonder if the cost of maintaining some level of warming of the hot pipes might cost less in the larger picture too. I agree I never liked instant heaters. To be honest the one I had was in one of my businesses and was simply over a sink for washing hands, not showering. It was gas powered and it fired up by turning on the tap and you burned your hands seconds later ... lol Seriously though, it was just a fast solution to a problem of adding a feature to an old building that would have cost more to repipe in the short term, over the long term I doubt it was a good idea.
Of course none of this takes away from the misting shower concept with 10 times the water surface per droplet. I'd love to try one.
In the future, thanks to global warming and air pollution legislation, tankless and tank gas water heaters will be banned. Electric heat pump heaters are a bit more efficient than gas, but they're slow, requiring tanks.
You can't really use an electric heat pump for multi-story high density housing like we have in Southern California. Water reclamation, recycling, conservation, reducing evaporation in reservoirs with new technologies, new building codes and even desalination using solar power are all practical methods of dealing with droughts, but also just good practice in general as fresh water is becoming scarce in many places around the world. There isn't a single silver bullet.
The modern way to do plumbing is PEX. In traditional plumbing with copper, the hot water is a like a tree. You have to heat up the whole tree and all its branches even if you just want hot water in one location. With PEX, which is a flexible plastic, you have a central manifold and each fixture has a dedicated tube which can be much smaller in diameter hence overall uses less water and because it is plastic it isn't conductive so you don't lose any heat. Other benefits of PEX are ease of installation, no theft of copper during construction, each fixture has its own shut off valve for maintenance, and seismic resistance due to it's flexibility.
Good solution, especially with a large system feeding hot water into into a PEX system. Smaller natural gas heaters next to every plumbing location is not as practical and electric units are costly to operate.
Thanks good info. I came across a similar piping system when i added central heating to a very old stone and brick building, it was termed micro-bore at the time and was small bore plastic piping as easy to install as electrical cable. Obviously a larger pump was required but it was very good, the heating of the water radiators was very fast. This was back in the 1980s. I hadn't thought of it in the context of showers etc., makes perfect sense though.
You can't really use an electric heat pump for multi-story high density housing like we have in Southern California. Water reclamation, recycling, conservation, reducing evaporation in reservoirs with new technologies, new building codes and even desalination using solar power are all practical methods of dealing with droughts, but also just good practice in general as fresh water is becoming scarce in many places around the world. There isn't a single silver bullet.
Talking of S. CA, I keep wondering if using the oil pipelines from Canada might one day be put to better use to bring fresh water to the wester USA. OT, but I worry this coming El Niño might be a disaster for CA due to rapid run off / soil erosion. I hope they are taking measures already for this.
I am interested in this, but at that price point would need to try it before I buy.
I think this is a major hurdle. The price is at least 10x the cost of a normal shower head, and given that the experience is supposed to justify the price, they need to somehow let potential buyers 'get their feet wet' to make the sale.
While I agree that I'd want to sample it before I buy it, it's only expensive as compared to a typical "big-box store" shower head. It's not expensive as compared to designer shower heads which can easily cost $600 to several thousand dollars. Shocking, but true. Even standard brands, like Kohler, can be expensive.
As just one example, go to the link. $3570 for a shower head and controls.
I've been using a $79 Bricor for years at 0.625 GPM. $79, Tim. And I don't see nearly so much metal wasted nor parts to break in mine.
The more important take-away from this news is that Cook really is interested in making the environment better, even if he doesn't always make the best choices to get us there. I keep waiting to see a reason to take the Apple Car off of the table, and, obviously with the BMW talk rumors recently, there isn't [yet a really good] one.
The modern way to do plumbing is PEX. In traditional plumbing with copper, the hot water is a like a tree. You have to heat up the whole tree and all its branches even if you just want hot water in one location. With PEX, which is a flexible plastic, you have a central manifold and each fixture has a dedicated tube which can be much smaller in diameter hence overall uses less water and because it is plastic it isn't conductive so you don't lose any heat. Other benefits of PEX are ease of installation, no theft of copper during construction, each fixture has its own shut off valve for maintenance, and seismic resistance due to it's flexibility.
And how about health issues? PVC pipe was also seen as a low-cost alternative to copper and lead pipe and it turned into a health disaster. But I think I once lived in a modern three-family condo that while it still used copper plumbing was designed with dedicated tubes to different parts of the building.
Talking of S. CA, I keep wondering if using the oil pipelines from Canada might one day be put to better use to bring fresh water to the wester USA. OT, but I worry this coming El Niño might be a disaster for CA due to rapid run off / soil erosion. I hope they are taking measures already for this.
We could build pipes from the Great Lakes area to So Cal, but the problem is capturing the rain quickly enough and getting it into the system to prevent flooding on their end. Plus it would need to be cleaned up somewhat before transporting through pipes. When you get giant thunderstorms, the water just comes down too fast. With oil pipelines, the oil is being pumped in at a manageable rate and it is economically feasible because the price of oil is much more than the price of water, although that might change in the future as we experience population growth and our dependency on oil lessens, as solar become more prevalent.
And how about health issues? PVC pipe was also seen as a low-cost alternative to copper and lead pipe and it turned into a health disaster. But I think I once lived in a modern three-family condo that while it still used copper plumbing was designed with dedicated tubes to different parts of the building.
The leaching of plastic chemicals (MTBE) in modern PEX is very low. It is much cleaner than older copper which can have some lead, other metals, and corrosive acids from the solder and flux. PEX may leach some chemicals in the very beginning but the amount continues to decrease over time, so in general is considered as safe or safer than copper.
This technology was developed in the energy crises of the 1970s actually, but the use was actually ended when CFCs were banned from refrigerants. Only after the development of substitute refrigerants and increased energy prices several years back have they become practical. Southern California is a perfect place for this technology as well, due to the need to reduce the significant smog-forming NOx emissions from gas-fired boilers.
OT, but I worry this coming El Niño might be a disaster for CA due to rapid run off / soil erosion. I hope they are taking measures already for this.
The benefits of more rain rather than less is worth the downside of mudslides. They claim that 90% of the fires in California, which ultimately cause the mudslides, are started by humans. People flick their burning cigarettes out the window of their cars all the time while driving near dry vegetation. Also, many people do not maintain their older cars and they overheat and catch on fire on a hot day while on the interstate, so they pull over to the shoulder and the winds send embers onto dry vegetation to start a fire.
Seriously, I do not know why people live out in those fire risk areas. They are just asking to get their property destroyed.
While I agree that I'd want to sample it before I buy it, it's only expensive as compared to a typical "big-box store" shower head. It's not expensive as compared to designer shower heads which can easily cost $600 to several thousand dollars. Shocking, but true. Even standard brands, like Kohler, can be expensive.
As just one example, go to the link. $3570 for a shower head and controls.
While I agree that I'd want to sample it before I buy it, it's only expensive as compared to a typical "big-box store" shower head. It's not expensive as compared to designer shower heads which can easily cost $600 to several thousand dollars. Shocking, but true. Even standard brands, like Kohler, can be expensive.
As just one example, go to the link. $3570 for a shower head and controls.
Thanks for the information. Wow, I didn't know such a market existed!
I would have the same reservations about purchasing before trying with these luxury shower heads.
I recently invested in Grohe's for all my bathrooms, and I can honestly say that there is no comparison to the lower-priced Home Depot-quality ones that preceded them.
Sounds cold. Mist usually loses it's heat much faster. So will I have to turn up the water heater output temp, meaning faucets are now hotter as well? How does it counter the thermal loss?
Sounds cold. Mist usually loses it's heat much faster. So will I have to turn up the water heater output temp, meaning faucets are now hotter as well? How does it counter the thermal loss?
The internal warm glow of greenie smugness makes up for the loss.
Comments
Why aren't building codes updated to mandate either tankless water heaters in all new construction or insulated hot-water-loops?
All of the water that is wasted down the drain while waiting for it to warm up - that's low-hanging fruit if you're trying to conserve water, people!
In the future, thanks to global warming and air pollution legislation, tankless and tank gas water heaters will be banned. Electric heat pump heaters are a bit more efficient than gas, but they're slow, requiring tanks.
$399, ha ha ha ha.
Maybe when I buy my $25000 iWatch.
Huh??? You're saying that you won't consider purchasing an average-priced shower fixture until you buy a $25,000 Apple Watch?
All true and extremely good insulation on hot pipes too. In a very cold climate I wonder if the cost of maintaining some level of warming of the hot pipes might cost less in the larger picture too. I agree I never liked instant heaters. To be honest the one I had was in one of my businesses and was simply over a sink for washing hands, not showering. It was gas powered and it fired up by turning on the tap and you burned your hands seconds later ... lol Seriously though, it was just a fast solution to a problem of adding a feature to an old building that would have cost more to repipe in the short term, over the long term I doubt it was a good idea.
Of course none of this takes away from the misting shower concept with 10 times the water surface per droplet. I'd love to try one.
In the future, thanks to global warming and air pollution legislation, tankless and tank gas water heaters will be banned. Electric heat pump heaters are a bit more efficient than gas, but they're slow, requiring tanks.
You can't really use an electric heat pump for multi-story high density housing like we have in Southern California. Water reclamation, recycling, conservation, reducing evaporation in reservoirs with new technologies, new building codes and even desalination using solar power are all practical methods of dealing with droughts, but also just good practice in general as fresh water is becoming scarce in many places around the world. There isn't a single silver bullet.
Thanks good info. I came across a similar piping system when i added central heating to a very old stone and brick building, it was termed micro-bore at the time and was small bore plastic piping as easy to install as electrical cable. Obviously a larger pump was required but it was very good, the heating of the water radiators was very fast. This was back in the 1980s. I hadn't thought of it in the context of showers etc., makes perfect sense though.
Talking of S. CA, I keep wondering if using the oil pipelines from Canada might one day be put to better use to bring fresh water to the wester USA. OT, but I worry this coming El Niño might be a disaster for CA due to rapid run off / soil erosion. I hope they are taking measures already for this.
I am interested in this, but at that price point would need to try it before I buy.
I think this is a major hurdle. The price is at least 10x the cost of a normal shower head, and given that the experience is supposed to justify the price, they need to somehow let potential buyers 'get their feet wet' to make the sale.
While I agree that I'd want to sample it before I buy it, it's only expensive as compared to a typical "big-box store" shower head. It's not expensive as compared to designer shower heads which can easily cost $600 to several thousand dollars. Shocking, but true. Even standard brands, like Kohler, can be expensive.
As just one example, go to the link. $3570 for a shower head and controls.
https://www.qualitybath.com/sonoma-forge-wb-shw-870-unit-with-4-handles-8-rain-head-tub-filler-product-78175.htm
(AIA if this posts twice)
I've been using a $79 Bricor for years at 0.625 GPM. $79, Tim. And I don't see nearly so much metal wasted nor parts to break in mine.
The more important take-away from this news is that Cook really is interested in making the environment better, even if he doesn't always make the best choices to get us there. I keep waiting to see a reason to take the Apple Car off of the table, and, obviously with the BMW talk rumors recently, there isn't [yet a really good] one.
The modern way to do plumbing is PEX. In traditional plumbing with copper, the hot water is a like a tree. You have to heat up the whole tree and all its branches even if you just want hot water in one location. With PEX, which is a flexible plastic, you have a central manifold and each fixture has a dedicated tube which can be much smaller in diameter hence overall uses less water and because it is plastic it isn't conductive so you don't lose any heat. Other benefits of PEX are ease of installation, no theft of copper during construction, each fixture has its own shut off valve for maintenance, and seismic resistance due to it's flexibility.
And how about health issues? PVC pipe was also seen as a low-cost alternative to copper and lead pipe and it turned into a health disaster. But I think I once lived in a modern three-family condo that while it still used copper plumbing was designed with dedicated tubes to different parts of the building.
I have never yet seen a water saving shower head that actually saved water. All they do is make people take longer showers.
Exactly right!
But the idea is already taken: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox
Talking of S. CA, I keep wondering if using the oil pipelines from Canada might one day be put to better use to bring fresh water to the wester USA. OT, but I worry this coming El Niño might be a disaster for CA due to rapid run off / soil erosion. I hope they are taking measures already for this.
We could build pipes from the Great Lakes area to So Cal, but the problem is capturing the rain quickly enough and getting it into the system to prevent flooding on their end. Plus it would need to be cleaned up somewhat before transporting through pipes. When you get giant thunderstorms, the water just comes down too fast. With oil pipelines, the oil is being pumped in at a manageable rate and it is economically feasible because the price of oil is much more than the price of water, although that might change in the future as we experience population growth and our dependency on oil lessens, as solar become more prevalent.
And how about health issues? PVC pipe was also seen as a low-cost alternative to copper and lead pipe and it turned into a health disaster. But I think I once lived in a modern three-family condo that while it still used copper plumbing was designed with dedicated tubes to different parts of the building.
The leaching of plastic chemicals (MTBE) in modern PEX is very low. It is much cleaner than older copper which can have some lead, other metals, and corrosive acids from the solder and flux. PEX may leach some chemicals in the very beginning but the amount continues to decrease over time, so in general is considered as safe or safer than copper.
You can't really use an electric heat pump for multi-story high density housing like we have in Southern California.
Yes you can. In fact, they're already required by code for large buildings, because you can recover heat from air conditioning.
http://www.daikinapplied.com/chiller-templifier-centrifugal.php
http://www.daikinapplied.com/chiller-templifier-scroll.php
http://www.trane.com/commercial/north-america/us/en/products-systems/equipment/chillers/water-cooled-chiller/centrifugal-liquid-cooled-chillers/earthwise-centravac/HeatRecovery.html
This technology was developed in the energy crises of the 1970s actually, but the use was actually ended when CFCs were banned from refrigerants. Only after the development of substitute refrigerants and increased energy prices several years back have they become practical. Southern California is a perfect place for this technology as well, due to the need to reduce the significant smog-forming NOx emissions from gas-fired boilers.
OT, but I worry this coming El Niño might be a disaster for CA due to rapid run off / soil erosion. I hope they are taking measures already for this.
The benefits of more rain rather than less is worth the downside of mudslides. They claim that 90% of the fires in California, which ultimately cause the mudslides, are started by humans. People flick their burning cigarettes out the window of their cars all the time while driving near dry vegetation. Also, many people do not maintain their older cars and they overheat and catch on fire on a hot day while on the interstate, so they pull over to the shoulder and the winds send embers onto dry vegetation to start a fire.
Seriously, I do not know why people live out in those fire risk areas. They are just asking to get their property destroyed.
While I agree that I'd want to sample it before I buy it, it's only expensive as compared to a typical "big-box store" shower head. It's not expensive as compared to designer shower heads which can easily cost $600 to several thousand dollars. Shocking, but true. Even standard brands, like Kohler, can be expensive.
As just one example, go to the link. $3570 for a shower head and controls.
https://www.qualitybath.com/sonoma-forge-wb-shw-870-unit-with-4-handles-8-rain-head-tub-filler-product-78175.htm
Thanks for the information. Wow, I didn't know such a market existed!
I would have the same reservations about purchasing before trying with these luxury shower heads.
It's a shame that giggle guy purchased a stake. He probably copied Cook.
I hope this means Tim will think about water proofing Apple devices.
While I agree that I'd want to sample it before I buy it, it's only expensive as compared to a typical "big-box store" shower head. It's not expensive as compared to designer shower heads which can easily cost $600 to several thousand dollars. Shocking, but true. Even standard brands, like Kohler, can be expensive.
As just one example, go to the link. $3570 for a shower head and controls.
https://www.qualitybath.com/sonoma-forge-wb-shw-870-unit-with-4-handles-8-rain-head-tub-filler-product-78175.htm
Thanks for the information. Wow, I didn't know such a market existed!
I would have the same reservations about purchasing before trying with these luxury shower heads.
I recently invested in Grohe's for all my bathrooms, and I can honestly say that there is no comparison to the lower-priced Home Depot-quality ones that preceded them.
Sounds cold. Mist usually loses it's heat much faster. So will I have to turn up the water heater output temp, meaning faucets are now hotter as well? How does it counter the thermal loss?
The internal warm glow of greenie smugness makes up for the loss.