That gaming controller is HURRENDOUS!! If you need to buy a separate controller for gaming, you blew it!
Why on Earth did Apple deny its own A9x chip for AppleTV? This alone would have got a ton of gamers on board. Now it's being seen as a streaming box with optional gaming in the gamer community (IE not for games)
Anyone notice that Apple is INTENTIONALLY fragmenting their hardware to get people to buy more?
?TV: No 3Dtouch or TouchID
iPhone 6s: 3D Touch, 2nd Gen Touch ID and A9.
iPad Pro: No 3D touch.
iPod Touch: self explanatory
Off the top of my head. There's no excuse other than to get people to buy them all for certain uses and hold back features intentionally to sell more devices.
This is their way of avoiding canabalization but it's annoying in AppleTV's case.
They are not intentionally fragmenting their hardware, they're introduce new features where they make the most sense (and where it's currently possible.)
The A9 is a brand new SoC and as such fabrication volumes are only hitting the demand for the new iPhone 6s. Same goes for the A9X; they're only currently making enough to meet Apple's estimations for the iPad Pro. Same goes for the 3D Touch enabling displays and Haptic Engines required. And the same goes for the displays in the iPad Pro that enable the Apple Pencil to work. And I'm guessing the 2nd Gen Touch ID works in concert with the A9, so we'll only see it on devices that use the A9 or A9X.
These are all features that require brand new hardware components. Apple can't just snap their fingers and get everything they need in the volumes they need. So, certain technologies are used where they make the most sense. And then later, once demand dies down, and volumes approach a surplus level, they can start moving some of those components into other devices.
Apple's AnX series of chips are designed specifically for higher-resolution devices. 1080p on the Apple TV is not high resolution by today's standards. The A8 is more than capable at handling that resolution, especially since it is not being held back by limited power resources. This is not a console with "gamers" in mind. Apple never said it was. This is obviously not the device for you.
I have a very large iTunes library. How does the new Apple TV handle a local library? Will Siri search it? What does the interface to the local library look like? Thanks!
We don’t even have confirmation that local libraries can be used with the thing.
Originally Posted by pmz
I'm amazed at how people ignore legitimate explanations as to why their concerns are unfounded.
I’m amazed at how you don’t comprehend that gigabit Ethernet is faster than 100 meg.
Originally Posted by digitalclips
I'd suggest you use iTunes Match. No need for a local library these days unless of course you have no internet or it is very slow.
You suggest enslaving yourself into paying for the rest of your life to access content you already own?
Anandtech said in early 2014 that the Tegra K1 easily had the power to run 360/PS3 games.
Performance wise, the K1 falls somewhere between the iPhone A8 and the iPad A8X, so the idea that the customized A8 in the Apple TV isn't going to be able to run that level of graphics doesn't make sense. Remember, the A8 has 2 billion transistors, a 4 MB L3 cache, and the RAM in the TV version is doubled to 2 GB (4 times what the 360 and PS3 had).
There's a list of console and mobile GPUs with performance levels here:
A8X would have been a better option for performance as it rivals the K1 and surpasses the PS3/360 but the ?TV device doesn't have a battery so they have to stay well within the power supply limit. Increasing the clock speed will help move it closer. It looks like the old consoles are just ~50% faster than the A8, assuming the higher clock speed. This kind of performance matters for computation (complex shaders, shadow quality, anti-aliasing) but the extra memory means more data can be cached and APIs like Metal help deliver on performance. When you compare the PS3 and PS4 versions of Metal Gear Solid V:
[VIDEO]
you can see the visual quality and frame rate differences but they're still running the same game, giving largely the same experience and these are 10x apart in performance so ~50% isn't going to make much of a difference. The ?TV could run that game. The issues are that you can't easily get a 25GB+ game onto the ?TV, you couldn't sell it for $60 on that platform and those games need the controller which is sold separately.
I thought the remote games worked well enough. Rayman Adventures played just fine with the remote and the other game mechanic will probably be how games like Guitar Hero work. I thought the placement of the play button was a bit odd but it makes sense when it's being used for games.
Although the box doesn't have a full controller bundled, the fact that it can play games like Rayman with just the remote is better than other media boxes. Games like Limbo, Badlands, Oddworld, Sonic, Trine will work ok out of the box.
Currently the ?TV sells about 8 million units per year at the $99 price point. Given that they are continuing to sell the $69 box, the $149 box might only sell < 4 million units per year. But it will build up the userbase gradually just like the iOS devices did. The A9 series already doubles the GPU performance of A8. Another couple of revisions like that and it's in next-gen territory.
The ?TV was already one of the best-selling media boxes, this new model can help grow the platform. For families who just need a cheap way to keep young kids (under 8) entertained in front of the TV, this is a better platform than any other just now and there will be apps and games that link with TV series. There's a Game of Thrones game that people can play after watching the TV episodes. Movies and TV shows bring out promotional games and apps and rather than have to go all the way to the iOS device to play them on a small screen, you can just click the remote and start it on the TV.
The title says "Hands on:..." I didn't see anything in the article that really was hands on. Oh, maybe they stopped by and diddled with it in the demo area. We need a comprehensive hands on review of the device.
I did discover something interesting about ATV long ago: I initially put an ethernet cable to the airport since they were right next to each other. I thought this might prove for some faster speeds (and from the discussion I see I was likely wrong) and found out that this seems to disable AirPlay. The devices have to be on the same network, and apparently that only works when your mac (in my case an MBA) is connected via wifi to the same wifi network as ATV. Pulled the cable, and it lit right off.
That gaming controller is HURRENDOUS!! If you need to buy a separate controller for gaming, you blew it!
why? Jobs' quote was to say that requiring a stylus to operate is a fail. it has no bearing on optional superior controllers for those interested in gaming use cases. I'd be happy to get a quality controller when & if I need one.
Anyone notice that Apple is INTENTIONALLY fragmenting their hardware to get people to buy more?
?TV: No 3Dtouch or TouchID
iPhone 6s: 3D Touch, 2nd Gen Touch ID and A9.
iPad Pro: No 3D touch.
iPod Touch: self explanatory
Off the top of my head. There's no excuse other than to get people to buy them all for certain uses and hold back features intentionally to sell more devices.
what a load of nonsense. I don't plan on owning an iPad pro because it's too big for my uses and I don't plan on drawing or designing wire frames on it. I don't need 3D Touch or Touch ID on an Apple TV (I'm already authenticated on it). I have zero reason to buy an iPod touch.
Gaming on the new Apple TV is, to be frank, a joke. The GPU is comically weak, far weaker than what was found in the 10 year old Xbox 360 and PS3. Whilst it's true that Apple's GPUs get quicker each year, there's no guarantee that the Apple TV will get the new chips (that it's launching with an already antiquated chip is telling), the gulf between anything Apple offer and the GPUs in the XO and PS4 are gigantic.
Then there are other factors, such as RAM (PS4 and XO have 8gb), storage (500gb hard drives and blu-ray discs, vs 32gb and an utterly bizarre 200mb app size limit), and controllers (a standard, included in the box pad with all the required buttons and sticks, vs an even worse than the WiiMote remote with optional third party pads which will get little dev support).
Even if the GPU wasn't so underpowered, the issue of storage alone is a game killer. Many big console titles are open world, and so need access to the entire map on demand. Apple's idea of streaming in levels in a linear fashion is fundamentally incompatible with open world games. The Witcher 3 for example requires 40gb of instant access storage. So don't expect anything like Metal Gear Solid V, The Witcher 3, Arkham Knight, The Division, Assassin's Creed Syndicate, Fallout 4, or any other big game on the ATV, ever. Not that any of those would ever run on such a basic low end GPU with 2gb of RAM anyway of course.
The lack of an included controller is another dead end for gaming. If it's an optional extra, it will get next to no support. That's been true in gaming since the beginning, and it will never change. So all games will be written to work on the remote control (a remote control FFS!). Watching that plastic toy third person shooter shown the AI video was hilarious. A shooter with no strafing! What a farce.
the only joke I find myself laughing at is hardcore gamers trying to compare ATV to their niche use case. that's not its job to be done. it's a causal gaming device, and it'll do that very well. hardcore gaming is a niche use case. understand that.
Selling more than one AppleTV to a family is a business success which Apple has already achieved with previous models. The AppStore is a game changer this time.
perhaps I misinterpreted your post while reading the complaints on its gaming chops. I thought you were saying it would only appeal to children because it's not a hardcore enough gaming rig. my point was that it appeals to me, a non child, on the merits of media consumption primarily and gaming secondary.
We need a comprehensive hands on review of the device.
And while this link doesn't have one, there is an interesting comment over of 9to5mac:
"Despite some controversy online, we can confirm the new Apple TV does support Home Sharing so users will be able to stream content directly from iTunes on computers connected to the network."
The title says "Hands on:..." I didn't see anything in the article that really was hands on. Oh, maybe they stopped by and diddled with it in the demo area. We need a comprehensive hands on review of the device.
get it thru your head -- this isn't a review. "hands on" != "review". the device hasn't been released yet, thus a review is impossible. the most anyone can have is a hands on (from last week's event) summary write up. which is what the tech blogs have and why they have it.
Plex is a third party app, and they've committed to building a client app for the new ATV, which is terrific news but expected. I use their Plex server and look forward to the native ATV client.
Educated guess: Siri's search will only be as good as the tags associated with the files. So if your large iTunes library is mainly media that was purchased from iTunes, it's likely to work well. Ripped content is likely to be more limited depending upon what tags were actually entered for the rip.
I also have a large media library in iTunes, not purchase from Apple, all complete with all metadata. If I discover that Apple is giving this content second class treatment merely because it wasn't purchased from iTunes, the Apple TV will be returned. I will never purchase any DRM-encumbered content, and I will never pay for content I already own, just to get it in a different format.
the only joke I find myself laughing at is hardcore gamers trying to compare ATV to their niche use case. that's not its job to be done. it's a causal gaming device, and it'll do that very well. hardcore gaming is a niche use case. understand that.
PS4 sales are 50% higher than PS2 sales were at this point in the cycle, and the PS2 was the most successful gaming device of all time.
GTA V has sold more than 50 million units at £50 a pop after a £150,000,000 development spend.
Belittle it and call it niche if you like, but gaming is a huge deal in every way imaginable. But as I say, enjoy your free to play casual junk if you like. I'll stick with Metal Gear Solid V.
crap? I get the feeling you already don't like the device (and probably the company) and are looking to frame your narrative.
one reason articles aren't answering more -- the device isn't out yet and nobody has one.
On the contrary, I'm very excited about it. But I'm also frustrated that Apple was very coy about the details of how it will work with media from different sources. There's nothing magical about universal search and Siri-powered smart searches and video scrubbing if it only works on movies purchased form iTunes or received via a handful of partner services. It bothers me that neither Apple nor any of the folks who were present at the keynote have shared any details about what the experience will be like when searching for and playing back content via Home Sharing, and whether Apple expects to extend the full experience to most or all of the content channel/apps. I also have a sneaking suspicion that these features will work with HBO Now, and not with HBO Go, which would be ridiculous.
perhaps I misinterpreted your post while reading the complaints on its gaming chops. I thought you were saying it would only appeal to children because it's not a hardcore enough gaming rig. my point was that it appeals to me, a non child, on the merits of media consumption primarily and gaming secondary.
Forgive those complaints, swallowing a culture shock is not easy.
Actually AppleTV is not Apple's response to that console thing and it is not worth discussing / replying to console gaming further here.
Apple has other playgrounds such as Retina, Metal, 3D-Touch... to open new horizons in computing and gaming. If they have anything to claim in these playgrounds let's just welcome them. Otherwise a bluray player with a powerful GPU and large buffer hard disk attached to a cheap 1080p LCD TV receiver... a thing of the past already.
Comments
That gaming controller is HURRENDOUS!! If you need to buy a separate controller for gaming, you blew it!
Why on Earth did Apple deny its own A9x chip for AppleTV? This alone would have got a ton of gamers on board. Now it's being seen as a streaming box with optional gaming in the gamer community (IE not for games)
Anyone notice that Apple is INTENTIONALLY fragmenting their hardware to get people to buy more?
?TV: No 3Dtouch or TouchID
iPhone 6s: 3D Touch, 2nd Gen Touch ID and A9.
iPad Pro: No 3D touch.
iPod Touch: self explanatory
Off the top of my head. There's no excuse other than to get people to buy them all for certain uses and hold back features intentionally to sell more devices.
This is their way of avoiding canabalization but it's annoying in AppleTV's case.
They are not intentionally fragmenting their hardware, they're introduce new features where they make the most sense (and where it's currently possible.)
The A9 is a brand new SoC and as such fabrication volumes are only hitting the demand for the new iPhone 6s. Same goes for the A9X; they're only currently making enough to meet Apple's estimations for the iPad Pro. Same goes for the 3D Touch enabling displays and Haptic Engines required. And the same goes for the displays in the iPad Pro that enable the Apple Pencil to work. And I'm guessing the 2nd Gen Touch ID works in concert with the A9, so we'll only see it on devices that use the A9 or A9X.
These are all features that require brand new hardware components. Apple can't just snap their fingers and get everything they need in the volumes they need. So, certain technologies are used where they make the most sense. And then later, once demand dies down, and volumes approach a surplus level, they can start moving some of those components into other devices.
Apple's AnX series of chips are designed specifically for higher-resolution devices. 1080p on the Apple TV is not high resolution by today's standards. The A8 is more than capable at handling that resolution, especially since it is not being held back by limited power resources. This is not a console with "gamers" in mind. Apple never said it was. This is obviously not the device for you.
We don’t even have confirmation that local libraries can be used with the thing.
I’m amazed at how you don’t comprehend that gigabit Ethernet is faster than 100 meg.
You suggest enslaving yourself into paying for the rest of your life to access content you already own?
You suggest enslaving yourself into paying for the rest of your life to access content you already own?
That's not how it works and you know it
There's a list of console and mobile GPUs with performance levels here:
http://kyokojap.myweb.hinet.net/gpu_gflops/
A8X would have been a better option for performance as it rivals the K1 and surpasses the PS3/360 but the ?TV device doesn't have a battery so they have to stay well within the power supply limit. Increasing the clock speed will help move it closer. It looks like the old consoles are just ~50% faster than the A8, assuming the higher clock speed. This kind of performance matters for computation (complex shaders, shadow quality, anti-aliasing) but the extra memory means more data can be cached and APIs like Metal help deliver on performance. When you compare the PS3 and PS4 versions of Metal Gear Solid V:
[VIDEO]
you can see the visual quality and frame rate differences but they're still running the same game, giving largely the same experience and these are 10x apart in performance so ~50% isn't going to make much of a difference. The ?TV could run that game. The issues are that you can't easily get a 25GB+ game onto the ?TV, you couldn't sell it for $60 on that platform and those games need the controller which is sold separately.
I thought the remote games worked well enough. Rayman Adventures played just fine with the remote and the other game mechanic will probably be how games like Guitar Hero work. I thought the placement of the play button was a bit odd but it makes sense when it's being used for games.
Although the box doesn't have a full controller bundled, the fact that it can play games like Rayman with just the remote is better than other media boxes. Games like Limbo, Badlands, Oddworld, Sonic, Trine will work ok out of the box.
Currently the ?TV sells about 8 million units per year at the $99 price point. Given that they are continuing to sell the $69 box, the $149 box might only sell < 4 million units per year. But it will build up the userbase gradually just like the iOS devices did. The A9 series already doubles the GPU performance of A8. Another couple of revisions like that and it's in next-gen territory.
The ?TV was already one of the best-selling media boxes, this new model can help grow the platform. For families who just need a cheap way to keep young kids (under 8) entertained in front of the TV, this is a better platform than any other just now and there will be apps and games that link with TV series. There's a Game of Thrones game that people can play after watching the TV episodes. Movies and TV shows bring out promotional games and apps and rather than have to go all the way to the iOS device to play them on a small screen, you can just click the remote and start it on the TV.
not a review. doesn't claim to be a review.
The title says "Hands on:..." I didn't see anything in the article that really was hands on. Oh, maybe they stopped by and diddled with it in the demo area. We need a comprehensive hands on review of the device.
I did discover something interesting about ATV long ago: I initially put an ethernet cable to the airport since they were right next to each other. I thought this might prove for some faster speeds (and from the discussion I see I was likely wrong) and found out that this seems to disable AirPlay. The devices have to be on the same network, and apparently that only works when your mac (in my case an MBA) is connected via wifi to the same wifi network as ATV. Pulled the cable, and it lit right off.
So how does it work, because apparently I don’t know.
why? Jobs' quote was to say that requiring a stylus to operate is a fail. it has no bearing on optional superior controllers for those interested in gaming use cases. I'd be happy to get a quality controller when & if I need one.
what a load of nonsense. I don't plan on owning an iPad pro because it's too big for my uses and I don't plan on drawing or designing wire frames on it. I don't need 3D Touch or Touch ID on an Apple TV (I'm already authenticated on it). I have zero reason to buy an iPod touch.
so poof. there goes your hypothesis.
crap? I get the feeling you already don't like the device (and probably the company) and are looking to frame your narrative.
one reason articles aren't answering more -- the device isn't out yet and nobody has one.
the only joke I find myself laughing at is hardcore gamers trying to compare ATV to their niche use case. that's not its job to be done. it's a causal gaming device, and it'll do that very well. hardcore gaming is a niche use case. understand that.
perhaps I misinterpreted your post while reading the complaints on its gaming chops. I thought you were saying it would only appeal to children because it's not a hardcore enough gaming rig. my point was that it appeals to me, a non child, on the merits of media consumption primarily and gaming secondary.
We need a comprehensive hands on review of the device.
And while this link doesn't have one, there is an interesting comment over of 9to5mac:
"Despite some controversy online, we can confirm the new Apple TV does support Home Sharing so users will be able to stream content directly from iTunes on computers connected to the network."
The Plex stuff sounds kinda cool too.
get it thru your head -- this isn't a review. "hands on" != "review". the device hasn't been released yet, thus a review is impossible. the most anyone can have is a hands on (from last week's event) summary write up. which is what the tech blogs have and why they have it.
Plex is a third party app, and they've committed to building a client app for the new ATV, which is terrific news but expected. I use their Plex server and look forward to the native ATV client.
Educated guess: Siri's search will only be as good as the tags associated with the files. So if your large iTunes library is mainly media that was purchased from iTunes, it's likely to work well. Ripped content is likely to be more limited depending upon what tags were actually entered for the rip.
I also have a large media library in iTunes, not purchase from Apple, all complete with all metadata. If I discover that Apple is giving this content second class treatment merely because it wasn't purchased from iTunes, the Apple TV will be returned. I will never purchase any DRM-encumbered content, and I will never pay for content I already own, just to get it in a different format.
PS4 sales are 50% higher than PS2 sales were at this point in the cycle, and the PS2 was the most successful gaming device of all time.
GTA V has sold more than 50 million units at £50 a pop after a £150,000,000 development spend.
Belittle it and call it niche if you like, but gaming is a huge deal in every way imaginable. But as I say, enjoy your free to play casual junk if you like. I'll stick with Metal Gear Solid V.
crap? I get the feeling you already don't like the device (and probably the company) and are looking to frame your narrative.
one reason articles aren't answering more -- the device isn't out yet and nobody has one.
On the contrary, I'm very excited about it. But I'm also frustrated that Apple was very coy about the details of how it will work with media from different sources. There's nothing magical about universal search and Siri-powered smart searches and video scrubbing if it only works on movies purchased form iTunes or received via a handful of partner services. It bothers me that neither Apple nor any of the folks who were present at the keynote have shared any details about what the experience will be like when searching for and playing back content via Home Sharing, and whether Apple expects to extend the full experience to most or all of the content channel/apps. I also have a sneaking suspicion that these features will work with HBO Now, and not with HBO Go, which would be ridiculous.
perhaps I misinterpreted your post while reading the complaints on its gaming chops. I thought you were saying it would only appeal to children because it's not a hardcore enough gaming rig. my point was that it appeals to me, a non child, on the merits of media consumption primarily and gaming secondary.
Forgive those complaints, swallowing a culture shock is not easy.
Actually AppleTV is not Apple's response to that console thing and it is not worth discussing / replying to console gaming further here.
Apple has other playgrounds such as Retina, Metal, 3D-Touch... to open new horizons in computing and gaming. If they have anything to claim in these playgrounds let's just welcome them. Otherwise a bluray player with a powerful GPU and large buffer hard disk attached to a cheap 1080p LCD TV receiver... a thing of the past already.