You are right. Macs are more expensive, but I just priced out a high end DIY computer over at CDW and I got it up to $4,415 for equivalent specs to the Mac Pro minus the extra GPU. I did add in the cost of Windows 10 Pro and also Office Pro but you are going to need those to do any work and the Mac Pro already comes with OS and productivity suite.
You couldn't find an old copy of Windows 7 lying around to upgrade to Windows 10? And CDW must be out of touch with the best prices at newegg.com.
Is anyone else growing tired of Time Cook's Apple? All of these 21" iMacs have only crappy slow spinning-disk hard drives! What is the f'ing problem Tim? The world has moved on to SSDs but you and the entire iMac line are stuck in the last decade. Do you NOT want us to buy these? MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!
Yes, I know I can custom order an SSD with these, but I shouldn't have too. If they can sell an 11" MacBook Air with an SSD for well under $1000, then the $1500 21" 4K iMac should have one too. I can add slow storage with an external drive - but Apple makes slow storage THE GOLD STANDARD!
UNBELIEVABLE!!
Too many ALL CAPS in that post. Blocked.
In response to Tim Cook's Apple.It is great if you like toys...like the Apple Watch, iPad and the iPhone. These mobile devices make Tim's world. The entire computer line up is in disarray. Partial updates within the Macbook, MBA and MBP lines. Each notebook has different processors from one another. Macbook has a core M processor, The MBA and the 13" MBP has the 5th generation i5 and i7 chips but dual core. The 15" MBP has i5 and i7 chips but quad core. We are told that the Macbook is the future because of the single USB-C port. Oh really, then why the 27 inch iMac with the new Skyline chips not embrace this technology. TB3 can be included because they have the same port configuration. The iMac line up is really an array of disorganization. You basically have 3 different models of the iMac. There are 2 - 21.5 inch models without Retina, another 21.5 inch model with Retina and 3 models of the 27" inch with Retina. The 21.5 inch models has the Broadwell processors and the 27 inch has the new Skylake processors. No changes in the ports. Why??? This is a great mystery to me. It appears that this upgrade is one to quiet Apple's critics about doing minimal support to the computer line. This is a shame.
We've benchmarked those "Pro" cards in our lab - they are hamburger at steak prices. The "Pro" designation for graphics cards is really just a rouse to inflate the price.
Yeah, that's it. /s
Same GPU's, hardly any performance differences, but cherry picked for performance and thermal properties and build in-house, certified and supported drivers for people that want those things, and there are lots of them, packed with ECC memory, and lots of it, and double precision support for those that need it for workloads, like engineering, science, finance, film and animation that take advantage of this. Not to mention more outputs for more screens.
But of course, since you don't do those things, then "The "Pro" designation for graphics cards is really just a rouse to inflate the price."
In response to Tim Cook's Apple.It is great if you like toys...like the Apple Watch, iPad and the iPhone. These mobile devices make Tim's world. The entire computer line up is in disarray. Partial updates within the Macbook, MBA and MBP lines. Each notebook has different processors from one another. Macbook has a core M processor, The MBA and the 13" MBP has the 5th generation i5 and i7 chips but dual core. The 15" MBP has i5 and i7 chips but quad core. We are told that the Macbook is the future because of the single USB-C port. Oh really, then why the 27 inch iMac with the new Skyline chips not embrace this technology. TB3 can be included because they have the same port configuration. The iMac line up is really an array of disorganization. You basically have 3 different models of the iMac. There are 2 - 21.5 inch models without Retina, another 21.5 inch model with Retina and 3 models of the 27" inch with Retina. The 21.5 inch models has the Broadwell processors and the 27 inch has the new Skylake processors. No changes in the ports. Why??? This is a great mystery to me. It appears that this upgrade is one to quiet Apple's critics about doing minimal support to the computer line. This is a shame.
I find it interesting that no one seems to have mentioned that these new models support 25% beyond sRGB screens; kind of a big deal, as are the new keyboard, magic tablet, and magic mouse, all of which contribute to making the new iMacs significantly better.
Same GPU's, hardly any performance differences, but cherry picked for performance and thermal properties and build in-house, certified and supported drivers for people that want those things, and there are lots of them, packed with ECC memory, and lots of it, and double precision support for those that need it for workloads, like engineering, science, finance, film and animation that take advantage of this. Not to mention more outputs for more screens.
But of course, since you don't do those things, then "The "Pro" designation for graphics cards is really just a rouse to inflate the price."
Whatever.
You really need to read specs more carefully. No where does Apple claim that the GPU's in the Mac Pro have ECC memory. It's the Same GDDR5 VRAM you'll find in consumer grade cards. "Certified and Supported Drivers" What a joke! As a software developer I can tell you that nothing is further from the truth. Their drivers are actually MORE buggy than consumer graphic cards.
These updated iMacs will be very well received by the target customers they are going after. Apple has more than enough of a product mix in this category to consistently keep their Mac numbers going up in a sea of declining PC sales. Not sure where all the hate is coming from. You all realize that desktop PCs are a slowly diminishing cash cow market. Nothing Microsoft is doing in the PC space is innovative, just a form factor game running the same old desktop operating system and same old cash cow legacy apps. All they're doing is stealing market share from their former partners and eating their cash cows too.
To be truthful I half expected some serious whine about the lack of a Rose Gold option on the refreshed iMacs. Now that would have been Whine Time justified...
I am very disappointed. A retina 4K display with anemic graphics and a slow hard drive is not going to cut it.
The fusion drive pairs a very slow 5400 rpm hard drive with a small SSD. We have these same fusion drives in our iMacs where I work, and they are often slow.
The integrated graphics will barely drive the 4K screen for light browsing. It will certainly not be capable of any kind of pro or midlevel video editing, design, gaming, etc.
Same old 16 GBs of RAM. This is fine for now, but will be inadequate in a few years for work that requires having four or five hungry programs to be open at the same time.
Bottom line, the internal specs on this new 21.5 inch 4K iMac are grossly inadequate now and will get worse as computing power demands increase within a few years. Macs last many years, but this one will be slow from day one and obsolete within two years.
This is a no buy.
I so wanted to get a new 21.5 inch iMac to replace my 2010 iMac. But my 2010 iMac has a 7200 RPM one TB hard drive, 16 GBs of Ram, a fast enough processor, and a discrete graphics card. It works fine. I will keep my current iMac for another year until Apple updates the 21.5 inch iMac to include internal specs to support its 4K display.
I don't have enough room for a 27 inch iMac, and so that is not an option.
Last gen Intel processors, only Intel integrated graphics and still no standard SSD...disappointing, it seems to me Apple has made the latest 21.5" iMac's with such low spec to make people spend more dosh on the 27" iMac's instead. A bit like the stingy 16GB standard iPhones, so you spend an extra $100 for the 64GB versions.
You really need to read specs more carefully. No where does Apple claim that the GPU's in the Mac Pro have ECC memory. It's the Same GDDR5 VRAM you'll find in consumer grade cards. "Certified and Supported Drivers" What a joke! As a software developer I can tell you that nothing is further from the truth. Their drivers are actually MORE buggy than consumer graphic cards.
My error on the ECC memory; only on the AMD FirePro's.
My various MCAD software runs on "certified drivers", in my case SolidWorks and Inventor on Quador 5000's and 4000's and I haven't had any issues.
I don't need to. I already have a Windows 10 PC that handily outscores even an 8 core MacPro in every single benchmark I have thrown at it, but that's not really my point here... I also need to own a Mac (it's a job thing) and I'm tired of having to pay ridiculous up-charges to get simple things, that quite frankly, should have been included in the base price. I didn't have to play this silly game when I built my kick-ass DIY PC? My only advice to Apple at this point is......you really need to TRY HARDER.
I agree with you. But I have some questions.
Did you use i7s in your PC build? And if so, how many cores? Xeons are much more expensive and their value don't always show up in benchmarks when compared to i7s. I have a 2009 MacPro with dual Westmere 3.46GHz CPUs and the 64-bit multicore score is 32000. But the single core score is lower than an i7. For apps that take full advantage of all cores the performence increase over any i7 is impressive. Only the OC'd high core count i7s come close. The majority of users don't need Xeons, but I do as my two everyday apps are built for them.
I don't know your PC build but don't compare it to an 8 core MacPro if you're not using Xeons because a lot of its price is in those Xeons and the now long in the tooth dual graphics cards.
You see, I'm the biggest Apple fanboy in the universe but I'm a realist and even I know when Apple is making frustrating mistakes that could be worked around with some determined engineering. Samsung SM951s are cheap and Apple should not be charging so much for their flash drive models compared to the fusion drive models. They should also include better graphics, allow for more RAM (which is a logic board design issue), and work out a way to avoid thermal throttling of the CPU. I'd also like to see a BTO option for 6 or 8 core i7 when all of the above is addressed.
Then I'd consider an iMac or a MInI. Until then I can only realistically use a MacPro (without the gorgeous 5k retina display - although I understand why Apple may be waiting for TB3, although I'm not sure it's necessary). One last thing, I do believe Apple's MacPro release cycle is dangerously slow. You can retrofit SM951s in a nMP and upgrade CPUs, but that doesn't quite cut it.
Remember when Steve Jobs was so aggressive with release dates? Despite rumors I don't think he would have ignored the pro user like Cook does. And I sense Phil Schiller, who should be CEO knows this. Cook should graciously move back to CFO but I'm afraid he and his supporters are blinded by profits. I don't think he had "the vision". Watch his TV interviews soon after Job's death. He looked like a deer in the headlights when asked about future products. I don't believe he really knew what he wanted to do. On the other hand Phil would bring back that killer spirit, IMO.
Sorry for the long post. Please reply if you think I'm wrong.
I find it interesting that no one seems to have mentioned that these new models support 25% beyond sRGB screens; kind of a big deal, as are the new keyboard, magic tablet, and magic mouse, all of which contribute to making the new iMacs significantly better.
That's because there are too many people here who love to see their posts on the web. They compare specs and pick and choose those that make themselves feel smart. It's very sad.
It would be so nice to just have some constructive discussions every now and then, especially on a new product. Instead we get silly arguments over who can assemble the fastest computer for the least amount of money.
Glad you mentioned the colour issue. I had noticed the keyboard and mouse as well as the apparently running cooler and hence more silent. The 21" retina model is very appealing to me ( with the Fusion option). Just have to decide if I really want an iPad Pro or not as opposed to an iMac ( seems crazy but I already have an iPad Air 2 and my handwriting days are less frequent. Have never liked any laptop due to the keyboard being attacked to the screen and no new Mini came out. That leaves the iMac which would be very useful. OSX is still quite a bit more flexible than iOS.
Its a little disappointing that Apple didn't include at least one usb type c port.
They came out with it on the MacBook it would have been nice to begin the transition over to all things except what needs the thinner form factor of the lightning connect i.e. the iPhone. This includes recharging the new Trackpad, magic mouse and wireless keyboard.
Its a little disappointing that Apple didn't include at least one usb type c port.
They came out with it on the MacBook it would have been nice to begin the transition over to all things except what needs the thinner form factor of the lightning connect i.e. the iPhone. This includes recharging the new Trackpad, magic mouse and wireless keyboard.
Speculating, but I wouldn't be surprised if Apple doesn't include any USB Type C connectors until TB 3 is released for various product lines that have a Skylake processor; MacBook won't be getting TB 3 which might cause some future confusion.
Speculating, but I wouldn't be surprised if Apple doesn't include any USB Type C connectors until TB 3 is released
Hate to say it, but that’s probably the reason. And you know what they’re going to do, don’t you? They’re not going to give us six Thunderbolt 3+USB C ports like they do now with USB A and Thunderbolt 2. No, no. They’ll just lop off two of them and give us four ports, max.
Hate to say it, but that’s probably the reason. And you know what they’re going to do, don’t you? They’re not going to give us six Thunderbolt 3+USB C ports like they do now with USB A and Thunderbolt 2. No, no. They’ll just lop off two of them and give us four ports, max.
Which is why Apple should have included at least one USB type C port. So that you could begin buy peripherals that use USB typeC.
It will be interesting to see if they include at least once USB type C port on new MacBook Airs and MacBook Pros. Those should be out soon. If not its a total fail.
Comments
You are right. Macs are more expensive, but I just priced out a high end DIY computer over at CDW and I got it up to $4,415 for equivalent specs to the Mac Pro minus the extra GPU. I did add in the cost of Windows 10 Pro and also Office Pro but you are going to need those to do any work and the Mac Pro already comes with OS and productivity suite.
You couldn't find an old copy of Windows 7 lying around to upgrade to Windows 10? And CDW must be out of touch with the best prices at newegg.com.
You couldn't find an old copy of Windows 7 lying around to upgrade to Windows 10? And CDW must be out of touch with the best prices at newegg.com.
Actually Newegg was more expensive on some of the stuff like the FirePro card
Is anyone else growing tired of Time Cook's Apple? All of these 21" iMacs have only crappy slow spinning-disk hard drives! What is the f'ing problem Tim? The world has moved on to SSDs but you and the entire iMac line are stuck in the last decade. Do you NOT want us to buy these? MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!
Yes, I know I can custom order an SSD with these, but I shouldn't have too. If they can sell an 11" MacBook Air with an SSD for well under $1000, then the $1500 21" 4K iMac should have one too. I can add slow storage with an external drive - but Apple makes slow storage THE GOLD STANDARD!
UNBELIEVABLE!!
Too many ALL CAPS in that post. Blocked.
In response to Tim Cook's Apple.It is great if you like toys...like the Apple Watch, iPad and the iPhone. These mobile devices make Tim's world. The entire computer line up is in disarray. Partial updates within the Macbook, MBA and MBP lines. Each notebook has different processors from one another. Macbook has a core M processor, The MBA and the 13" MBP has the 5th generation i5 and i7 chips but dual core. The 15" MBP has i5 and i7 chips but quad core. We are told that the Macbook is the future because of the single USB-C port. Oh really, then why the 27 inch iMac with the new Skyline chips not embrace this technology. TB3 can be included because they have the same port configuration. The iMac line up is really an array of disorganization. You basically have 3 different models of the iMac. There are 2 - 21.5 inch models without Retina, another 21.5 inch model with Retina and 3 models of the 27" inch with Retina. The 21.5 inch models has the Broadwell processors and the 27 inch has the new Skylake processors. No changes in the ports. Why??? This is a great mystery to me. It appears that this upgrade is one to quiet Apple's critics about doing minimal support to the computer line. This is a shame.
We've benchmarked those "Pro" cards in our lab - they are hamburger at steak prices. The "Pro" designation for graphics cards is really just a rouse to inflate the price.
Yeah, that's it. /s
Same GPU's, hardly any performance differences, but cherry picked for performance and thermal properties and build in-house, certified and supported drivers for people that want those things, and there are lots of them, packed with ECC memory, and lots of it, and double precision support for those that need it for workloads, like engineering, science, finance, film and animation that take advantage of this. Not to mention more outputs for more screens.
But of course, since you don't do those things, then "The "Pro" designation for graphics cards is really just a rouse to inflate the price."
Whatever.
In response to Tim Cook's Apple.It is great if you like toys...like the Apple Watch, iPad and the iPhone. These mobile devices make Tim's world. The entire computer line up is in disarray. Partial updates within the Macbook, MBA and MBP lines. Each notebook has different processors from one another. Macbook has a core M processor, The MBA and the 13" MBP has the 5th generation i5 and i7 chips but dual core. The 15" MBP has i5 and i7 chips but quad core. We are told that the Macbook is the future because of the single USB-C port. Oh really, then why the 27 inch iMac with the new Skyline chips not embrace this technology. TB3 can be included because they have the same port configuration. The iMac line up is really an array of disorganization. You basically have 3 different models of the iMac. There are 2 - 21.5 inch models without Retina, another 21.5 inch model with Retina and 3 models of the 27" inch with Retina. The 21.5 inch models has the Broadwell processors and the 27 inch has the new Skylake processors. No changes in the ports. Why??? This is a great mystery to me. It appears that this upgrade is one to quiet Apple's critics about doing minimal support to the computer line. This is a shame.
I find it interesting that no one seems to have mentioned that these new models support 25% beyond sRGB screens; kind of a big deal, as are the new keyboard, magic tablet, and magic mouse, all of which contribute to making the new iMacs significantly better.
Yeah, that's it. /s
Same GPU's, hardly any performance differences, but cherry picked for performance and thermal properties and build in-house, certified and supported drivers for people that want those things, and there are lots of them, packed with ECC memory, and lots of it, and double precision support for those that need it for workloads, like engineering, science, finance, film and animation that take advantage of this. Not to mention more outputs for more screens.
But of course, since you don't do those things, then "The "Pro" designation for graphics cards is really just a rouse to inflate the price."
Whatever.
You really need to read specs more carefully. No where does Apple claim that the GPU's in the Mac Pro have ECC memory. It's the Same GDDR5 VRAM you'll find in consumer grade cards. "Certified and Supported Drivers" What a joke! As a software developer I can tell you that nothing is further from the truth. Their drivers are actually MORE buggy than consumer graphic cards.
...packed with ECC memory, and lots of it...
To be fair the FirePros that Apple uses only have 3 GB RAM. AMD makes FirePros with up to 16 GB RAM.
To be truthful I half expected some serious whine about the lack of a Rose Gold option on the refreshed iMacs. Now that would have been Whine Time justified...
I am very disappointed. A retina 4K display with anemic graphics and a slow hard drive is not going to cut it.
The fusion drive pairs a very slow 5400 rpm hard drive with a small SSD. We have these same fusion drives in our iMacs where I work, and they are often slow.
The integrated graphics will barely drive the 4K screen for light browsing. It will certainly not be capable of any kind of pro or midlevel video editing, design, gaming, etc.
Same old 16 GBs of RAM. This is fine for now, but will be inadequate in a few years for work that requires having four or five hungry programs to be open at the same time.
Bottom line, the internal specs on this new 21.5 inch 4K iMac are grossly inadequate now and will get worse as computing power demands increase within a few years. Macs last many years, but this one will be slow from day one and obsolete within two years.
This is a no buy.
I so wanted to get a new 21.5 inch iMac to replace my 2010 iMac. But my 2010 iMac has a 7200 RPM one TB hard drive, 16 GBs of Ram, a fast enough processor, and a discrete graphics card. It works fine. I will keep my current iMac for another year until Apple updates the 21.5 inch iMac to include internal specs to support its 4K display.
I don't have enough room for a 27 inch iMac, and so that is not an option.
Good for you. You don’t have a clue what the Mac Pro is or what it can do compared to that.
Get the best of both worlds and buy a Mac Pro with a 980, like me.
Hard drives were invented in the ‘60s. That’s more than a decade ago.
The notion, of course, you’re just inventing off the top of your head.
Last gen Intel processors, only Intel integrated graphics and still no standard SSD...disappointing, it seems to me Apple has made the latest 21.5" iMac's with such low spec to make people spend more dosh on the 27" iMac's instead. A bit like the stingy 16GB standard iPhones, so you spend an extra $100 for the 64GB versions.
You really need to read specs more carefully. No where does Apple claim that the GPU's in the Mac Pro have ECC memory. It's the Same GDDR5 VRAM you'll find in consumer grade cards. "Certified and Supported Drivers" What a joke! As a software developer I can tell you that nothing is further from the truth. Their drivers are actually MORE buggy than consumer graphic cards.
My error on the ECC memory; only on the AMD FirePro's.
My various MCAD software runs on "certified drivers", in my case SolidWorks and Inventor on Quador 5000's and 4000's and I haven't had any issues.
I agree with you. But I have some questions.
Did you use i7s in your PC build? And if so, how many cores? Xeons are much more expensive and their value don't always show up in benchmarks when compared to i7s. I have a 2009 MacPro with dual Westmere 3.46GHz CPUs and the 64-bit multicore score is 32000. But the single core score is lower than an i7. For apps that take full advantage of all cores the performence increase over any i7 is impressive. Only the OC'd high core count i7s come close. The majority of users don't need Xeons, but I do as my two everyday apps are built for them.
I don't know your PC build but don't compare it to an 8 core MacPro if you're not using Xeons because a lot of its price is in those Xeons and the now long in the tooth dual graphics cards.
You see, I'm the biggest Apple fanboy in the universe but I'm a realist and even I know when Apple is making frustrating mistakes that could be worked around with some determined engineering. Samsung SM951s are cheap and Apple should not be charging so much for their flash drive models compared to the fusion drive models. They should also include better graphics, allow for more RAM (which is a logic board design issue), and work out a way to avoid thermal throttling of the CPU. I'd also like to see a BTO option for 6 or 8 core i7 when all of the above is addressed.
Then I'd consider an iMac or a MInI. Until then I can only realistically use a MacPro (without the gorgeous 5k retina display - although I understand why Apple may be waiting for TB3, although I'm not sure it's necessary). One last thing, I do believe Apple's MacPro release cycle is dangerously slow. You can retrofit SM951s in a nMP and upgrade CPUs, but that doesn't quite cut it.
Remember when Steve Jobs was so aggressive with release dates? Despite rumors I don't think he would have ignored the pro user like Cook does. And I sense Phil Schiller, who should be CEO knows this. Cook should graciously move back to CFO but I'm afraid he and his supporters are blinded by profits. I don't think he had "the vision". Watch his TV interviews soon after Job's death. He looked like a deer in the headlights when asked about future products. I don't believe he really knew what he wanted to do. On the other hand Phil would bring back that killer spirit, IMO.
Sorry for the long post. Please reply if you think I'm wrong.
Cheers All.
That's because there are too many people here who love to see their posts on the web. They compare specs and pick and choose those that make themselves feel smart. It's very sad.
It would be so nice to just have some constructive discussions every now and then, especially on a new product. Instead we get silly arguments over who can assemble the fastest computer for the least amount of money.
Glad you mentioned the colour issue. I had noticed the keyboard and mouse as well as the apparently running cooler and hence more silent. The 21" retina model is very appealing to me ( with the Fusion option). Just have to decide if I really want an iPad Pro or not as opposed to an iMac ( seems crazy but I already have an iPad Air 2 and my handwriting days are less frequent. Have never liked any laptop due to the keyboard being attacked to the screen and no new Mini came out. That leaves the iMac which would be very useful. OSX is still quite a bit more flexible than iOS.
No usb-c? odd.
Its a little disappointing that Apple didn't include at least one usb type c port.
They came out with it on the MacBook it would have been nice to begin the transition over to all things except what needs the thinner form factor of the lightning connect i.e. the iPhone. This includes recharging the new Trackpad, magic mouse and wireless keyboard.
Its a little disappointing that Apple didn't include at least one usb type c port.
They came out with it on the MacBook it would have been nice to begin the transition over to all things except what needs the thinner form factor of the lightning connect i.e. the iPhone. This includes recharging the new Trackpad, magic mouse and wireless keyboard.
Speculating, but I wouldn't be surprised if Apple doesn't include any USB Type C connectors until TB 3 is released for various product lines that have a Skylake processor; MacBook won't be getting TB 3 which might cause some future confusion.
Hate to say it, but that’s probably the reason. And you know what they’re going to do, don’t you? They’re not going to give us six Thunderbolt 3+USB C ports like they do now with USB A and Thunderbolt 2. No, no. They’ll just lop off two of them and give us four ports, max.
Hate to say it, but that’s probably the reason. And you know what they’re going to do, don’t you? They’re not going to give us six Thunderbolt 3+USB C ports like they do now with USB A and Thunderbolt 2. No, no. They’ll just lop off two of them and give us four ports, max.
But you could daisy chain them!
But you could daisy chain them!
Which is why Apple should have included at least one USB type C port. So that you could begin buy peripherals that use USB typeC.
It will be interesting to see if they include at least once USB type C port on new MacBook Airs and MacBook Pros. Those should be out soon. If not its a total fail.