These poor folks. My heart goes out to them. How broken hearted they must be to have their loved loved ones taken like that.
I can can only imagine if it was my family.
Yet grief can be blinding. And shame on the FBI for exploiting that grief.
Apple already tried to help. But the incompetence at the county got in the way.
There are two issues here:
1) the mass murder case.
2) the availability of encryption to protect EVERYONES privacy.
You cannot run roughshod over one to do the other. Especially considering how far reaching the one is.
This whole case is a government backdoor into destroying our right to privacy.
It it used to be the government had to get a warrant to spy on you. Now they want carts Blanche access.
That's asking for trouble. This is AMERICA. Not China. Not Russia. Not Iran.
Come on already.
I completely understand the grief from victims' families. I probably would be pretty much in the same boat if it's my family to let FBI take advantage of my case for their own agenda until someone explains the consequence to me. However, the real problem would be much larger once Apple give up their stand to meet FBI demands, then other governments in the world. Once, it gets to Russia or China, N. Korea will have it, then soon, cyber terrorists. That time, they disrupt the fcking financial systems, trust funds, social security, bank accounts and guess what...entire corporate trade secrets. I don't know if a dozen of victims' families would understand the epic impact later for supporting FBI on this. Government could not even protect their own data...yeah, talking about 20M employee profile hacked by China. Between Government and Apple, I chose Apple to protect my information.
Is this the modern day's McCarthyism at work - government leaning on families of victims to apply pressure on Apple?
What's the likelihood that the killers had used the county issued phone and failed to dump it when they reportedly dumped their personal phones and other devices? Looks like the FBI is using the San Bernardino attack as a way to get what James Comey has been trying to get for years - a backdoor into IOS.
Maybe someone can answer this question for me. If every Apple software engineer refuses to write a backdoor code how can it get done. Furthermore what if the task were to take 5 years of 50% man power working on the problem? Can the government bankrupt Apple in pursuit of something impossible. I think someone already said it. The FBI is afraid of Apple and it's followers and power, but I believe Tim is trying to do what he thinks is right and constitutional.
When was the last time the FBI said we are sorry we made a mistake? This is a clear indication that they don't care one bit about these people they are just pawns for an end goal.
Or...they say they try everything and cannot break it. What can FBI do? Government can force someone to try creating something but cannot force him to SUCCESSFULLY create it.
Are the majority of commenters really believing what you are saying. The FBI is trying to prevent further episodes like this, and Tim Cook is only interested in protecting his bottom dollar, the entire worth of Apple is not worth the single life of any of those of who died. Come to reality people we do not protect these people, and the only ones concerned in their protection, are obviously doing something, they have to protect. I guess the people who side with Apple on this will not care until it someone they care, or love, that gets killed.
As someone who has seen terrorist acts at first hand (IRA bombing of the Old Bailey in London) I probably have a different view than you of the matter at hand. If Apple give in then we might as well just have been living in the old East Germany where almost everyone was an informer of one sort of the other. Or the world painted so vividly in '1984' where just having thoughts that didn't toe the government line was enough to get you sent to [insert gulag of your choice here]. Personally, because the two people who commited this offense went to the trouble of destroying their own phones and not this one leads me to think that there is nothing on it that would incriminate them. so why the demand to see what's on it? I feel that is nothing more than a move to get access to everyone's phone, data (even if held locally) by setting a precident. Once the box is opened you can't close it again. Oh, and to hell with the 5th Ammendment and any thoughts about using it in future. Pleading the 5th won't work if you have anything anywhere on this planet stored electronically that relates to the crime you are charged with. The other bits of the US constitution that this rides rough shod over does IMHO make the whole thing useless. Did the founding fathers really mean for it to end this way? Somehow I doubt it. Just my irrelevant $0.02 worth on the subject.
Why not go after the gun companies? People seem more upset with Apple than they are with the company whose gun was used for the killings. Does that make any sense? The iPhone was never used to directly kill anyone. The biggest loser in this fight will be all Apple shareholders. It's hard for me to believe that most smartphone owners would want to have their right to privacy taken away by giving any intelligence agency the ability to break into their smartphones.
Are the majority of commenters really believing what you are saying. The FBI is trying to prevent further episodes like this, and Tim Cook is only interested in protecting his bottom dollar, the entire worth of Apple is not worth the single life of any of those of who died. Come to reality people we do not protect these people, and the only ones concerned in their protection, are obviously doing something, they have to protect. I guess the people who side with Apple on this will not care until it someone they care, or love, that gets killed.
The majority of commenters are diehard isheeps who will defend there apple product and bash all android products
It's being said most tech companies, including Google/Alphabet was siding with Apple in this case. Why bother to make a secure device if it can be easily hacked into.
The court should throw Tim Cook into jail for contempt of court, and fine apple for refusing to comply with a court order.
If you read what the court wrote, it asked Apple for feedback in the next 5 days, then extended that request. So the only notion of "contempt" is the one you made up.
The majority of commenters are diehard isheeps who will defend there apple product and bash all android products
I think I should point out that the vast majority of the Android camp is not so desperate to soothe their insecurity by trolling over an issue that would have serious ramifications for them as well.
Are the majority of commenters really believing what you are saying. The FBI is trying to prevent further episodes like this, and Tim Cook is only interested in protecting his bottom dollar, the entire worth of Apple is not worth the single life of any of those of who died. Come to reality people we do not protect these people, and the only ones concerned in their protection, are obviously doing something, they have to protect. I guess the people who side with Apple on this will not care until it someone they care, or love, that gets killed.
As someone who has seen terrorist acts at first hand (IRA bombing of the Old Bailey in London) I probably have a different view than you of the matter at hand. If Apple give in then we might as well just have been living in the old East Germany where almost everyone was an informer of one sort of the other. Or the world painted so vividly in '1984' where just having thoughts that didn't toe the government line was enough to get you sent to [insert gulag of your choice here]. Personally, because the two people who commited this offense went to the trouble of destroying their own phones and not this one leads me to think that there is nothing on it that would incriminate them. so why the demand to see what's on it? I feel that is nothing more than a move to get access to everyone's phone, data (even if held locally) by setting a precident. Once the box is opened you can't close it again. Oh, and to hell with the 5th Ammendment and any thoughts about using it in future. Pleading the 5th won't work if you have anything anywhere on this planet stored electronically that relates to the crime you are charged with. The other bits of the US constitution that this rides rough shod over does IMHO make the whole thing useless. Did the founding fathers really mean for it to end this way? Somehow I doubt it. Just my irrelevant $0.02 worth on the subject.
Well put rotateleftbyte, and as to what the founding fathers think of this, they were actually quite clear on the subject matter:
Benjamin Franklin: “Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
Thomas Jefferson: "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery." (Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.)
Jefferson also warned against using the "sluices of terrorism" as an excuse to remove our privacy and liberty.
George Washington: "Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action."
Patrick Henry: "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined."
The FBI already caught the perpetrators. The job is done. Anything else is an attempt to violate the principles of the founding fathers, the constitution, and the United States of America.
Here's the thing, though: if it's not a DoD wipe, ie alternate 0's and 1's are scanned across the entire storage drive multiple times in succession, then it's meaningless. I've been able to recover once-thought lost items from a reformatted hard drive using nothing but open-source consumer tools to find the ghost files. I would imagine the FBI would be able to get the information they needed even after wiping it.
Recovery from an ssd drive is not as straight forward because such a drive has active management. I tested this by throwing away some files on my mac and then using retrieval software to get it back. Almost all files were gone. Also recovering the info doesn't help decrypting it.
I agree with all of the thoughtful and logical points about preservation of privacy, civil liberties, and freedom. When the government starts taking those away from its citizenry in the name of fighting terrorism, as they have since 9/11, it's an admission that we've already lost the war. Three hundred and thirty million people brought into total submission by a tiny handful of bad actors. If that's not the perfect formula for incentivizing other groups on the wrong side of humanity to try their own hand at similar tactics, I don't know what is. We've become victims of terrorism - largely by choice and the constant fanning of the flames of fear and terror. The media, law enforcement, and politicians do their best to make sure we keep the fear and terror at the forefront of everything we do. The sad part is that because of the massive asymmetry of the threat, no matter how minute, it will will never go away. Maintaining massive standing armies and turning deserts into glass won't change a thing. All it takes is one incident by one or two nut balls to release the next wave of fear at even greater levels.
Unfortunately logic and balanced perspective is nearly always Trumped by fear, paranoia, and the worst possible fate for politicians and public figures - being cast in a negative light by a pervasive media. There are very few public officials in office today, elected or appointed, that will defend a correct yet unpopular decision. They only care about perception and covering their own asses. If that means throwing everything the country has struggled to support and defend against all enemies, foreign and domestic, under the bus they will not hesitate to do so as long they can cover their own ass in the media and paint themselves in a good and popular public light. The victims of the attackers suffered a horrible and tragic fate at the hands of people who had no regard for the civil, moral, or basic human rights. They deserve justice but we cannot stoop to the level of the same people who have no regard for civil, moral, or basic human rights to seek justice. We're better than that. I hope.
So, the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc...all know how iPhones (and others) work. Sounds to me like the FBI told SBC DoH to reset the password for a specific reason and not just for the hell of it. Not trying to start any conspiracy crap, but I mean really, these guys are supposed to be the best of the best. It'd be like trying to diffuse a bomb by detonating it, then complaining that the evidence has been "tampered" with.
can't apple just decrypt internally and hand in to FBI without revealing decryption technique or tools?
Even if they could, it would open Pandora's box. What would be the minimum threshold for Apple to comply: terrorism? Think of the children? Protestors? Traffic violations?
and the US doesn't live in a vacuum. Rogue nations will also make the request.
Are we looking this whole thing wrong way ? All over the world, hundreds of years of history speaks loudly including last few decades and confirms the most terrorists incidents were act from Muslims. Same will happen in future. Who is involved in terrorists act ? Muslims. Why not put ban on Muslims
immigration to this country and in fact you banning or stopping to import future
additional terrorism.. OR make laws that allow law enforcement where heavily suspected terrorists people in USA get vanished without trace.
You can't have a religious test to come into our nation. The Prez can ban folks from certain countries but you can't blanket ban an entire region.
can't apple just decrypt internally and hand in to FBI without revealing decryption technique or tools?
Even if they could, it would open Pandora's box. What would be the minimum threshold for Apple to comply: terrorism? Think of the children? Protestors? Traffic violations?
and the US doesn't live in a vacuum. Rogue nations will also make the request.
No it wouldn't - it would just require a properly constitued court order, just like any other law-enforcement request for information, unless you already think that search warrants and subpoenas are already a Pandora's Box. The good reasons for Apple not wishing to create flawed versions of iOS are entirely different.
Are we looking this whole thing wrong way ? All over the world, hundreds of years of history speaks loudly including last few decades and confirms the most terrorists incidents were act from Muslims. Same will happen in future. Who is involved in terrorists act ? Muslims. Why not put ban on Muslims
immigration to this country and in fact you banning or stopping to import future
additional terrorism.. OR make laws that allow law enforcement where heavily suspected terrorists people in USA get vanished without trace.
You can't have a religious test to come into our nation. The Prez can ban folks from certain countries but you can't blanket ban an entire region.
Right - I guess you could ban a region comprising a set of nationalities but, since religion is not listed in passports and is simply a matter of personal identification, that would seem to be completely impracticable. I suppose they could add it to the visitor question form along with the "are you intending to try to overthrow the government" questions, but I never understood the point of those either. Who answers "yes"?
Comments
However, the real problem would be much larger once Apple give up their stand to meet FBI demands, then other governments in the world. Once, it gets to Russia or China, N. Korea will have it, then soon, cyber terrorists. That time, they disrupt the fcking financial systems, trust funds, social security, bank accounts and guess what...entire corporate trade secrets. I don't know if a dozen of victims' families would understand the epic impact later for supporting FBI on this. Government could not even protect their own data...yeah, talking about 20M employee profile hacked by China. Between Government and Apple, I chose Apple to protect my information.
If Apple give in then we might as well just have been living in the old East Germany where almost everyone was an informer of one sort of the other. Or the world painted so vividly in '1984' where just having thoughts that didn't toe the government line was enough to get you sent to [insert gulag of your choice here].
Personally, because the two people who commited this offense went to the trouble of destroying their own phones and not this one leads me to think that there is nothing on it that would incriminate them.
so why the demand to see what's on it? I feel that is nothing more than a move to get access to everyone's phone, data (even if held locally) by setting a precident. Once the box is opened you can't close it again.
Oh, and to hell with the 5th Ammendment and any thoughts about using it in future. Pleading the 5th won't work if you have anything anywhere on this planet stored electronically that relates to the crime you are charged with.
The other bits of the US constitution that this rides rough shod over does IMHO make the whole thing useless. Did the founding fathers really mean for it to end this way? Somehow I doubt it.
Just my irrelevant $0.02 worth on the subject.
I think I should point out that the vast majority of the Android camp is not so desperate to soothe their insecurity by trolling over an issue that would have serious ramifications for them as well.
Do people in the US use suitcases with TSA approved locks?
Benjamin Franklin: “Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
Thomas Jefferson: "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery." (Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.)
Jefferson also warned against using the "sluices of terrorism" as an excuse to remove our privacy and liberty.
George Washington: "Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action."
Patrick Henry: "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined."
The FBI already caught the perpetrators. The job is done. Anything else is an attempt to violate the principles of the founding fathers, the constitution, and the United States of America.
Just pondering...
I tested this by throwing away some files on my mac and then using retrieval software to get it back.
Almost all files were gone.
Also recovering the info doesn't help decrypting it.
Thanks a lot, "victims"!
Unfortunately logic and balanced perspective is nearly always Trumped by fear, paranoia, and the worst possible fate for politicians and public figures - being cast in a negative light by a pervasive media. There are very few public officials in office today, elected or appointed, that will defend a correct yet unpopular decision. They only care about perception and covering their own asses. If that means throwing everything the country has struggled to support and defend against all enemies, foreign and domestic, under the bus they will not hesitate to do so as long they can cover their own ass in the media and paint themselves in a good and popular public light. The victims of the attackers suffered a horrible and tragic fate at the hands of people who had no regard for the civil, moral, or basic human rights. They deserve justice but we cannot stoop to the level of the same people who have no regard for civil, moral, or basic human rights to seek justice. We're better than that. I hope.
and the US doesn't live in a vacuum. Rogue nations will also make the request.
You can't have a religious test to come into our nation. The Prez can ban folks from certain countries but you can't blanket ban an entire region.
Right - I guess you could ban a region comprising a set of nationalities but, since religion is not listed in passports and is simply a matter of personal identification, that would seem to be completely impracticable. I suppose they could add it to the visitor question form along with the "are you intending to try to overthrow the government" questions, but I never understood the point of those either. Who answers "yes"?