Indian government turns down Apple request to import used iPhones for sale, report says

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 67
    rogifan_newrogifan_new Posts: 4,297member

    sog35 said:
    fallenjt said:
    There are more iPhone sales in Vietnam or Cambodia than in India even with the same or less income per capita and population < 10% in those 2 South East Asia countries. The Indian's shopping mentality is not the same as Chinese or South East Asian. Cook didn't understand that. If he wants iPhone sale to take off in India, price it at $200 for low tier SE and $400 for iPhone 6S.
    dumbest thing I've read in a while.

    So you want Apple to lose money on every single phone they sell in India?

    If you really want Apple to sell $200 phones in India the only strategy that would make sense would be to license iOS to one of the local brands and charge them a royalty. 


    Licensing iOS is an even dumber idea and something Apple will never do. The user experience comes from hardware and software being designed together not some cheap POS having iOS flashed on it. Maybe now isn't the right time for Apple to be pushing into India.
    patchythepiraterobrr
  • Reply 22 of 67
    jbdragonjbdragon Posts: 2,305member
    fallenjt said:
    There are more iPhone sales in Vietnam or Cambodia than in India even with the same or less income per capita and population < 10% in those 2 South East Asia countries. The Indian's shopping mentality is not the same as Chinese or South East Asian. Cook didn't understand that. If he wants iPhone sale to take off in India, price it at $200 for low tier SE and $400 for iPhone 6S.
    That's just dumb. Better off not selling any phones then throwing out your profit margin just to get sales. Makes no sense and creates problems with people expected that price cut everywhere else. Now you're playing the Android game, why? Better off to sell a few phones and make a profit then a zillion phones and breaking even.
    damonf
  • Reply 23 of 67
    jakebjakeb Posts: 562member
    They'll sort this out. They got an exception to open Apple stores in India, which is absolutely against regulations to have a non-Indian single brand stores. 
    caliradster360
  • Reply 24 of 67
    bkkcanuckbkkcanuck Posts: 864member
    bkkcanuck said:
    And how would that help them with selling phones in India?  If it is not going to help them then must refurb them in locations that make the most financial and technical sense... which is likely not India.


    ???

    1. India certainly has the talent to refurbish iPhones
    2. Refurbished-in-India iPhones could sell in India at tariff-free prices
    3. Apple has already made high profit and recouped R&D, etc. on these iPhones from their initial sale
    4. Apple & India resellers could sell these refurbs at a lower price and still make acceptable profit margins
    5. Encourages many new customers as entrants to the Apple ecosystem
    6. India customers get reasonable choice to buy the best phone/ecosystem
    7. India gets jobs & re-manufacturing industry

    Sounds like a win/win/win to me!


    You taking the post out of context.  The poster is recommending that there be an exception for phones that are imported, refurbished, then exported (not for sale inside India).  Why open a factory just to refurb phones for the purposes of refurbishing if they cannot sell them locally?  If not for this reason then the factory has to make financial sense as opposed to somewhere else that is more competitive in that area.
  • Reply 25 of 67
    bkkcanuckbkkcanuck Posts: 864member
    fallenjt said:
    There are more iPhone sales in Vietnam or Cambodia than in India even with the same or less income per capita and population < 10% in those 2 South East Asia countries. The Indian's shopping mentality is not the same as Chinese or South East Asian. Cook didn't understand that. If he wants iPhone sale to take off in India, price it at $200 for low tier SE and $400 for iPhone 6S.
    There are many Indians that are status driven and if the iPhone is perceived as a status symbol then people will buy it for that purpose. 

    People that cannot afford new versions of the phone but could buy a new looking one at a discount (refurbished) would be in the market for buying a refurbished one as well.  I worked with many Indians (graduate students in the US) that would buy a Mercedes before finding a place to live (and live in the car if necessary) since Mercedes is was a status symbol that said you made it.   I seem to remember one guy who drove a Lamborghini around and had an vehicle with security personnel that would pop out and run along all four corners of the car while in traffic (which is all over the place) to make sure regular folk did not get too close and mess up the finish... when he was able to get faster than running speed they would pop back in the vehicle and follow along....  Gold jewelry is also popular in India because of it's status.  

    There market is not all the lower class people, but those that are in the middle class and above and those that have future potential to get new phones in the future (even if they buy used products now).  Get them into the ecosystem now.... 
  • Reply 26 of 67
    anantksundaramanantksundaram Posts: 20,403member
    This was a dumb -- indeed, condescending -- move by Apple to begin with. Compete there with your good stuff at the best possible prices, and let the chips fall where they may. If you can't, go compete somewhere else.

    The Indian government did the right thing.
    This is nonsense. When I had an issue with the power button on my iPhone 5 I got the phone replaced at an Apple Store. It was a refurbished phone but looked like brand new. I've sold many an Apple device on Gazelle always in mint condition. There's nothing wrong with selling refurbished devices in order to get into an emerging market at a lower price. This is just India practicing protectionism and favoritism. It will come back to bite them in the ass eventually.
    What 'favoritism'? In what way is Samsung treated differently in India? And 'protectionism'? It's exactly the same playing field that everyone selling CE has, competing there.

    I agree that it will come back to bite the country the ass. Just as the lack of freedoms in China will, or the corruption in Brazil will. But those are currently the facts on the ground. You should take them into account if you want play there, or take your ball and go somewhere else.
  • Reply 27 of 67
    bkkcanuckbkkcanuck Posts: 864member
    This is nonsense. When I had an issue with the power button on my iPhone 5 I got the phone replaced at an Apple Store. It was a refurbished phone but looked like brand new. I've sold many an Apple device on Gazelle always in mint condition. There's nothing wrong with selling refurbished devices in order to get into an emerging market at a lower price. This is just India practicing protectionism and favoritism. It will come back to bite them in the ass eventually.
    What 'favoritism'? In what way is Samsung treated differently in India? And 'protectionism'? It's exactly the same playing field that everyone selling CE has, competing there.

    I agree that it will come back to bite the country the ass. Just as the lack of freedoms in China will, or the corruption in Brazil will. But those are currently the facts on the ground. You should take them into account if you want play there, or take your ball and go somewhere else.
    Or lobby your government to retaliate....
  • Reply 28 of 67
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 12,527member
    bkkcanuck said:
    bkkcanuck said:
    And how would that help them with selling phones in India?  If it is not going to help them then must refurb them in locations that make the most financial and technical sense... which is likely not India.


    ???

    1. India certainly has the talent to refurbish iPhones
    2. Refurbished-in-India iPhones could sell in India at tariff-free prices
    3. Apple has already made high profit and recouped R&D, etc. on these iPhones from their initial sale
    4. Apple & India resellers could sell these refurbs at a lower price and still make acceptable profit margins
    5. Encourages many new customers as entrants to the Apple ecosystem
    6. India customers get reasonable choice to buy the best phone/ecosystem
    7. India gets jobs & re-manufacturing industry

    Sounds like a win/win/win to me!


    You taking the post out of context.  The poster is recommending that there be an exception for phones that are imported, refurbished, then exported (not for sale inside India).  Why open a factory just to refurb phones for the purposes of refurbishing if they cannot sell them locally?  If not for this reason then the factory has to make financial sense as opposed to somewhere else that is more competitive in that area.

    If what you say is true, then I understand both of you even less.

    Why couldn't iPhones refurbished in India be sold in India?

    I suspect that:
    1.  iPhones could be refurbed in India as economically as in China (or elsewhere)
    2. the refurb factories could be setup in India in a way similar to what Apple did/does in China

  • Reply 29 of 67
    bkkcanuckbkkcanuck Posts: 864member
    bkkcanuck said:
    You taking the post out of context.  The poster is recommending that there be an exception for phones that are imported, refurbished, then exported (not for sale inside India).  Why open a factory just to refurb phones for the purposes of refurbishing if they cannot sell them locally?  If not for this reason then the factory has to make financial sense as opposed to somewhere else that is more competitive in that area.

    If what you say is true, then I understand both of you even less.

    Why couldn't iPhones refurbished in India be sold in India?

    I suspect that:
    1.  iPhones could be refurbed in India as economically as in China (or elsewhere)
    2. the refurb factories could be setup in India in a way similar to what Apple did/does in China

    The refurb factories in China, like all Apple factories in China are production facilities for worldwide distribution.  India has blocked used phones for import into India, and opening up an operation locally to "refurbish" phones is not going to be viewed in a new light.  Obviously Apple had already decided that refurbishing phones in China was the best economic decision because the supply for part replacements etc. are produced in that area.  

    The following are what are called a non-tarif barriers:

    Preventing international companies from opening local stores to sell their product, while allowing Indian companies to do the same -- forcing you to deal with a local distributor.  This would in fact inflate the price as it does in Canada (Denon sells products to a distributor in Canada that then supplies local stores - which only ends up inflating Canadian prices by 30% - 40%.... which is why I bought mine in the US).  

    Preventing the importation of used phones internationally and refurbishing them, while allowing some local indian company to do the same (and there are many).  

    India, like many companies rely heavily on exporting for their standard of living - and thus should be forced to eliminate non-tarif as well as tarif barriers - failing to do so should lead to retaliation with regards to international trade.
  • Reply 30 of 67
    cnocbuicnocbui Posts: 3,613member
    This was a dumb -- indeed, condescending -- move by Apple to begin with. Compete there with your good stuff at the best possible prices, and let the chips fall where they may. If you can't, go compete somewhere else.

    The Indian government did the right thing.
    This is nonsense. When I had an issue with the power button on my iPhone 5 I got the phone replaced at an Apple Store. It was a refurbished phone but looked like brand new. I've sold many an Apple device on Gazelle always in mint condition. There's nothing wrong with selling refurbished devices in order to get into an emerging market at a lower price. This is just India practicing protectionism and favoritism. It will come back to bite them in the ass eventually.
    India is doing exactly what China and most other countries still do - looking after local domestic manufacturers and employers.
  • Reply 31 of 67
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 12,527member
    bkkcanuck said:
    bkkcanuck said:
    You taking the post out of context.  The poster is recommending that there be an exception for phones that are imported, refurbished, then exported (not for sale inside India).  Why open a factory just to refurb phones for the purposes of refurbishing if they cannot sell them locally?  If not for this reason then the factory has to make financial sense as opposed to somewhere else that is more competitive in that area.

    If what you say is true, then I understand both of you even less.

    Why couldn't iPhones refurbished in India be sold in India?

    I suspect that:
    1.  iPhones could be refurbed in India as economically as in China (or elsewhere)
    2. the refurb factories could be setup in India in a way similar to what Apple did/does in China

    The refurb factories in China, like all Apple factories in China are production facilities for worldwide distribution.  India has blocked used phones for import into India, and opening up an operation locally to "refurbish" phones is not going to be viewed in a new light.  Obviously Apple had already decided that refurbishing phones in China was the best economic decision because the supply for part replacements etc. are produced in that area.  

    The following are what are called a non-tarif barriers:

    Preventing international companies from opening local stores to sell their product, while allowing Indian companies to do the same -- forcing you to deal with a local distributor.  This would in fact inflate the price as it does in Canada (Denon sells products to a distributor in Canada that then supplies local stores - which only ends up inflating Canadian prices by 30% - 40%.... which is why I bought mine in the US).  

    Preventing the importation of used phones internationally and refurbishing them, while allowing some local indian company to do the same (and there are many).  

    India, like many companies rely heavily on exporting for their standard of living - and thus should be forced to eliminate non-tarif as well as tarif barriers - failing to do so should lead to retaliation with regards to international trade.

    You give several (many?) reasons "why not."

    Likely, you understand the status quo in India better than I.


    I suggest, that companies and countries, alike, are amenable to making deals that are mutually beneficial.

    For example.  Setup refurb plants in India that can import used iPhones duty-free, refurb them,  and resell then in India or elsewhere.  Likely these would be somewhat more expensive than using the current refurb facilities in China,  It could be structured in such a way that it does disrupt the existing independent refurbers.

    India gains jobs and industry.

    Indian citizens gain better prices/more choices.

    Apple gains as it has an alternate source for refurbs.

    Apple gains India market potential.


    Lots of long term potential:
    1. New iPhone manufacturing in India
    2. iPhone Upgrade program within India
    3. iPhone Refurb within India
    4. More choices for India's citizens
    5. Virtuous circle

    To me that is an environment that is pregnant with the opportunity for making  a deal!

    edited May 2016
  • Reply 32 of 67
    tzeshantzeshan Posts: 2,351member
    damonf said:
    sog35 said:
    Cook needs to build some phones in India. 

    That would be a smart move and give Apple more leverage against China.

    But the Chinese could then say, "You move any iPhone manufacturing out of China into India, you can kiss iTunes Movies, etc. in China goodbye".  The problem is with India's protectionism.  Rather than get their population growth under control like China did with its "one child per family" policy, India thinks it can get the rest of the world to solve all of its current and future unemployment issues (just like Trump plans to force Apple to bring manufacturing back to the U.S.).  Maybe the U.S. should slap some tariffs on India's "remote IT services and support" sector.  That might get them to realize they can't play one-sided (all take, no give) in the world economy.
    No.  Since India is a democracy, US will help India with lots of free money and employment.  
  • Reply 33 of 67
    wigginwiggin Posts: 2,265member
    bkkcanuck said:
    What 'favoritism'? In what way is Samsung treated differently in India? And 'protectionism'? It's exactly the same playing field that everyone selling CE has, competing there.

    I agree that it will come back to bite the country the ass. Just as the lack of freedoms in China will, or the corruption in Brazil will. But those are currently the facts on the ground. You should take them into account if you want play there, or take your ball and go somewhere else.
    Or lobby your government to retaliate....
    How do we think the US government would respond if a foreign company requested to import used goods for sale into the US? Is anyone aware of an example of this? Folks are bashing India, and it seems clear that they do practice some protectionism; but the additional twist here is that it's used merchandise (regardless of how well it was refurbished). Many companies sell small quantities of refurbished items. I've purchased refurbished Macs and iPads from Apple. But it sounds like Apple's plan was to bring rather large quantities into an Indian market that they can't otherwise compete in. Can we say with certainty that the US government wouldn't make the same decision?

    Not to mention, I wonder if Samsung ad execs were salivating at the opportunity to run ads in India representing iPhones as used, second-hand devices. If Apple did manage to sell enough used iPhones to noticeably bump up their market share, I'd think they'd also be at risk of damaging their brand in India by being subject to this kind of marketing by the competition.
    anantksundaram
  • Reply 34 of 67
    bkkcanuckbkkcanuck Posts: 864member
    wiggin said:
    bkkcanuck said:
    Or lobby your government to retaliate....
    How do we think the US government would respond if a foreign company requested to import used goods for sale into the US? Is anyone aware of an example of this? Folks are bashing India, and it seems clear that they do practice some protectionism; but the additional twist here is that it's used merchandise (regardless of how well it was refurbished). Many companies sell small quantities of refurbished items. I've purchased refurbished Macs and iPads from Apple. But it sounds like Apple's plan was to bring rather large quantities into an Indian market that they can't otherwise compete in. Can we say with certainty that the US government wouldn't make the same decision?

    Not to mention, I wonder if Samsung ad execs were salivating at the opportunity to run ads in India representing iPhones as used, second-hand devices. If Apple did manage to sell enough used iPhones to noticeably bump up their market share, I'd think they'd also be at risk of damaging their brand in India by being subject to this kind of marketing by the competition.
    Yes, you can import used goods into the US market.  People do that all the time they buy and sell things if there is a market.  Apple currently has a refurb store online that sells stuff refurbished in China - which is accessible to just US and Canada.  I bought 3 refurbished Mac Mini 2009s from there.  Apple though does restrict some of their retailers from selling refurbs in certain markets because it is not beneficial when their new market is so established (Wind Mobile I think tried to sell refurbished phones along with new ones).

    There is a massive used phone market here in Thailand (not necessarily refurbished) ... you just have to visit MBK.  A lot of those phones came from places like Singapore etc.
    edited May 2016
  • Reply 35 of 67
    ktappektappe Posts: 823member
    damonf said:
    Rather than get their population growth under control like China did with its "one child per family" policy, India thinks it can get the rest of the world to solve all of its current and future unemployment issues
    I cannot agree more. India is its own worst enemy. 
  • Reply 36 of 67
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 12,527member
    edited May 2016
  • Reply 37 of 67
    freerangefreerange Posts: 1,597member
    So much for global markets and free trade! The thing we seem to export most of are jobs.
  • Reply 38 of 67
    freerangefreerange Posts: 1,597member
    This was a dumb -- indeed, condescending -- move by Apple to begin with. Compete there with your good stuff at the best possible prices, and let the chips fall where they may. If you can't, go compete somewhere else.

    The Indian government did the right thing.
    Bullshit! They would still be providing an advanced high quality product at a more affordable price point compared to all the cheap crap phones that are currently being sold there. Further, it would be with a far superior ecosystem. There is nothing in the least condescending about this. What is condescending is Samsung pouring cheap android crap into the market for unsuspecting consumers.
    radster360
  • Reply 39 of 67
    freerangefreerange Posts: 1,597member

    mike1 said:
    The US government should retaliate by increasing tariffs on imported drugs and textiles from India. The Indians can't have it both ways.
    More importantly, we should shut down work visas for Indian workers. India outsourcing companies are sucking up the majority of the work visa allotment each year by flooding the system with applications. Meanwhile taking American jobs. Same with the outsourcing companies operating in India, taking US jobs. The US government should be taking strong action! And not only with India, but also with China.
    edited May 2016
  • Reply 40 of 67
    bkkcanuckbkkcanuck Posts: 864member
    bkkcanuck said:
    They would still have to import the used phones..... otherwise they have had to sell the new ones first.

    I always knew there is something wonky with India with regards to importation of electronics.  It is funny seeing Indians in a hotel here, I remember seeing tour groups of Indians and they would each of purchased one TV (or maybe someone else has and is using the tour company to import) - and you will see 50+ TVs ready to go to the airport to go back to india with the tour group.
    Silly post. I don't know where you see this, or what the clientele is in the places you hang out. TVs cost about the same price in India -- or can be even lower -- than they are at a Best Buy here. For example, a 43-inch LG LED TV (say, LG 43LF540A 43 Inch Full HD LED TV) can be had for INR36,000, i.e., less than $550.
    BKK Thailand, Well then I have no idea (it has been a couple years since I have been in a hotel lobby or airport for long) but there were lots of Indians with one TV per person... unless of course many of those shops are selling TVs that were originally shipped to Thailand :wink: 


    http://www.firstpost.com/india/why-indians-love-bangkok-cheap-leds-233569.html

    edited May 2016
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