Genius Bar doesn't hire retired Apple engineer, fires up age discrimination debate

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Comments

  • Reply 61 of 112
    Okay, so he was turned down because he is too old. And? Why this totalitarian anti-age discrimination law exist to begin with is nonsensical. The  stores give off a certain youthful ambiance. Obviously hiring a 60+ year old would be contradictory to that. I don't want to walk into the stores and be greeted by grandparents. The youth are forward looking (generally), while older individuals tend to be stuck in their ways. If  wants to be seen as innovative, then their store employees should reflect that.
    An anecdotal story;

    The Apple Store I've been to has a few employees that are older then me.  One especially is a Genius that really knows the ends and outs of Apple.  Here is the crazy thing, the students from UCSB will only go to him.  Both of them speak a language that's pure beauty.

    I believe in who ever is best qualified should get the job.  The employer shouldn't take age in consideration.
    tallest skilronnbaconstangstompy
  • Reply 62 of 112
    While there are pretentious arrogant bigots like Vinod, he is wrong.

    I have as good ideas as I had 30-40 years ago, though they have decreased somewhat due to lack of environmental stimulation (retired 14 years ago).

    I have better ideas than Apple sometimes, even living in a non tech environment.  Something they patented last spring, I tried to give to them no strings attached in 2011, but lawyers you know..., and I an outsider.

    And age??:  a few months ago I got hired by Apple, even with no prior customer service exp in the sense of the job that I was hired for, and I am 73 now.  It is for a college job too, for which one would expect a preference for 18-20 year olds.  And another bone: I am over qualified (PhD, MIT and though somewhat embarrassing, Stanford too), but I WANTED the job and didn't push "oh I am so great", and/or deserving.  I think that I am blessed to work for Apple.

    It is heavy customer service, a bit like a "Genius", and I can assure you that 30 years ago I wouldn't have been hired for it.  Not the "no experience", but the no prime customer service personality, and I was an outstanding engineer then, as good as Scheinberg, or maybe better being at top of my field.  But certainly NOT qualified for Apple style customer service (which I greatly admire and am proud to be a part of).
    baconstang
  • Reply 63 of 112
    jdwjdw Posts: 699member
    After reading the article and the comments here, I found it rather interesting no one posted famous quotes from the heart-and-soul of Apple, Steve Jobs.  But maybe only I remember these because I am so old.  ;-)

    "I never trust anyone over 40 years old."  (Steve Jobs, before he turned 40 himself.)

    "It's rare that you see an artist in his 30s or 40s able to really contribute something amazing." (A youthful Steve Jobs in a 1985 Playboy article)

    I also find it interesting that Apple started off with a very youthful team and, amazingly enough, the executive team aged over time.  :-)  Tim Cook and all the top brass are certainly not in their 20's and 30's. Yet most Apple stores are staffed by those in their 20's and 30's.  If younger people point too many fingers at "old geezers" they'd also be pointing at all the gray headed guys leading Apple today, which include Mr. Ive.  But despite what Jobs said in his younger days, he contributed a lot in his older days, as has Mr. Ive, Mr. Cook and many others in leadership roles at Apple.

    Even if it is not a matter of company policy, human beings are prone to err.  Younger people, if not but on a subconscious level, tend to associate better with those closer to their age group and tend to be a tad distrustful of those much older than themselves, regardless of any high qualifications that younger person may see on an older person's resume.  So this case may just have been "inadvertent" age discrimination rather than willful.  Even so, I think that Apple engineer, over qualified or not, could still contribute positively and effectively at any Apple store where he might be hired.

    Lastly, one commenter in this forum said, "
    older individuals tend to be stuck in their ways."  While true, it is a rather derogatory comment and it also is problematic.  Consider well that Apple is successful because they stubbornly are "stuck in their ways" when it comes to NOT releasing a product until it is insanely great.  So there are benefits to being "stuck in one's ways" that some younger people may not be able to see clearly.  All said, just love others as you love your own self, be less judgmental, and give people a chance.  That kind of motto will make the world, and Apple stores, a better place.
    baconstang
  • Reply 64 of 112
    jdw said:
    Lastly, one commenter in this forum said, "older individuals tend to be stuck in their ways."  While true, it is a rather derogatory comment and it also is problematic.
    I’m so fucking sick of that word that I could scream. Truth is not a matter of opinion. Truth doesn’t give a fuck about your (third person nondescript) feelings.
    Consider well that Apple is successful because they stubbornly are "stuck in their ways" when it comes to NOT releasing a product until it is insanely great.  So there are benefits to being "stuck in one's ways" that some younger people may not be able to see clearly.
    Hear hear. What’s the old saying… You never respect or appreciate the way your parents did things until you’re one yourself and have screwed up by doing them every other way. That’s obviously not it at all, but the sentiment is there…
    jdwewtheckmanbestkeptsecret
  • Reply 65 of 112
    welshdogwelshdog Posts: 1,657member
    TurboPGT said:

    Private companies need to be left the hell alone to do as they please. 
    Why do people think this? 
    ronnbaconstangktappe
  • Reply 66 of 112
    I should start applying for jobs as a race car driver and sue if anyone hires a younger candidate. I've been driving really fast for over 20 years, so if I'm not hired it must be because of my age and nothing to do with my ability to perform a specific job related to something I have great amounts of experience in.
    brertechtallest skil
  • Reply 67 of 112
    Age discrimination is a serious issue - or at least it is for those who are impacted by it.
    I see a lot of poorly informed comments here and a lot of creative suppositions. Where to start?
    An Apple Genius is trained and certified, regardless of age. Other store positions also require training. Saying that a 19 year old's up-to-date certification is more valid than a sixty year old's  up-to-date certification is absurd.
    As for the wisdom of long experience, it can be much more valuable than that of a young tunnel-visioned genius. (Ever had an issue where an upgrade produced one new shiny thing and killed two much more important things? Or where a change in the OS reduces your productivity because it forces you to work in very narrow ways? Thank the people who don't have the sense or wisdom tounderstand what it is they are destroying.)
    I've been a victim of this in very big ways. My portfolio is impressive - a lot of high profile work generating millions of dollars in sales for major well-known brands. But I have to choose between including a lot of my well-known work over the years or keeping the resume over one page. And when the year I graduated is right there at the top, it doesn't matter anyway. They won't read one word more. They may have 100 resumes to choose from and mine will be rejected without reading. Of course, I could lie, include only my best work, change the years and get an interview, but I was raised to tell the truth.
    And if you have ever walked into an interview and seen the smiling face of the interviewer instantly turn into a scowl, followed by ten minutes of them asking questions and not listening, then saying goodbye after only fifteen minutes, you will know what discrimination is.
    Every single person has seen and is familiar with multiple examples of my work over the years – feature films, national TV commercials, store shelves, etc., but when you receive only two calls from over one hundred individually tailored resumes tailored by an expert in marketing communications whose won multiple industry awards - one does become suspicious. (And if my mother weren't dying I would not have left the highly responsible and well-paying job I had, which threw me into the world of age discrimination, I might have been much less sensitive to this issue. 
    baconstangjeffharrisMogar
  • Reply 68 of 112
    metrixmetrix Posts: 245member
    freerange said:
    asdasd said:
    In Scheinberg's case it might well have been over qualification for the store. I'm sure he could walk into another job in Apple.  (He subsequently became a CTO at a game company). 
    Hard to believe the there are morons on this site that would indicate a "like" for this comment. If the customer is the most important in the eyes of Apple, providing the best possible customer service at the genius bar should be the priority. And most certainly there would be no such thing as an "overly qualified" candidate. The comment is beyond stupid, and arrogant.  This candidate would also most likely be a role model and source of knowledge and training for the rest of the genius team at the store. But maybe you're too young and smart to figure that out on your own.
    I have been an software applications engineer for sometime and I am near 50 and can say most engineers like him would be poor communicators toward the public because we would probably give you a life story of how and why we developed the functionality. We are typically not social talkers. 
    brertechtallest skil
  • Reply 69 of 112
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,678member
    metrix said:
    freerange said:
    asdasd said:
    In Scheinberg's case it might well have been over qualification for the store. I'm sure he could walk into another job in Apple.  (He subsequently became a CTO at a game company). 
    Hard to believe the there are morons on this site that would indicate a "like" for this comment. If the customer is the most important in the eyes of Apple, providing the best possible customer service at the genius bar should be the priority. And most certainly there would be no such thing as an "overly qualified" candidate. The comment is beyond stupid, and arrogant.  This candidate would also most likely be a role model and source of knowledge and training for the rest of the genius team at the store. But maybe you're too young and smart to figure that out on your own.
    I have been an software applications engineer for sometime and I am near 50 and can say most engineers like him would be poor communicators toward the public because we would probably give you a life story of how and why we developed the functionality. We are typically not social talkers. 
    I'm not saying in any way what his social, communicative, or technical level may be in regards to the Genius position, but I do know from experience—which is purely anecdotal—that the people that have the ability to code at that level of expertise are typically the farthest thing from being able to listen to an upset and techtarded customer talk about their thingamajiggy not working properly while interchanging terms like CPU, RAM, hard drive, and other terms to try to seem knowledgeable, and ten figure out what the customer is trying to relay without being frustrated by their poor level of communication. The Apple Genius then has to determine what the problem is and then relay this technical data back to the customer in a way that they can understand what they're being told. This is even more difficult when it comes to tech support over the phone. I know brilliant programmers who would absolutely suck at any job where they had to deal with customers who are by-and-large ignorant when it comes to even the most rudimentary aspects of technology.

    Again, let me state that I'm in no way say that Scheinberg was discriminated against, and if he truly feels that he was he should pursue that matter as they scan help others help Apple Stores honest, but nothing in this article shows that he was, and there have been plenty of anecdotal comments from forum members stating that they are or know or older Apple Genius employees. My 2nd favorite at my store is a guy who is clearly in his 50s, and he only dropped to #2 after my last experience with a wonderful Genius in her 20s who was so exceptional in her knowledge and efficiency that I doubt I'll ever see her equal again in any retail environment.
    brertech
  • Reply 70 of 112
    No-one but the person who chose the new employee will ever know if discrimination was used. People can play the race/sex/ageism card all they like, there are always reasons for choosing one person over another - it could be qualifications and experience but equally important sometimes is a person's likeability, their personality and attitude. Maybe the company is looking long-term and wants someone who will stay with the company for a set number of years and climb the ladder. 

    I know personally when I went for my first interview while I was still in school, they had a key question "do you want to go to university?". It was a trick - most people to make a good impression would say yes. I said No, I'm keen to get working and learn on the job - this saw myself and a handful of others picked from the 60+ candidates. The job coincidentally put me through university anyway but it was part of the apprenticeship. Those that said yes, had perfect grades etc. could not understand why they were not chosen.

    What I see nowadays is companies being told to have an equal number of men and women, an equal number of nationalities, an equal number of differing ethnic backgrounds. Positive discrimination. It won't be long till the HR dept has to actively recruit someone under 4ft high and someone over 6ft high to keep everyone happy.
  • Reply 71 of 112
    macseeker said:
    Okay, so he was turned down because he is too old. And? Why this totalitarian anti-age discrimination law exist to begin with is nonsensical. The  stores give off a certain youthful ambiance. Obviously hiring a 60+ year old would be contradictory to that. I don't want to walk into the stores and be greeted by grandparents. The youth are forward looking (generally), while older individuals tend to be stuck in their ways. If  wants to be seen as innovative, then their store employees should reflect that.
    An anecdotal story;

    The Apple Store I've been to has a few employees that are older then me.  One especially is a Genius that really knows the ends and outs of Apple.  Here is the crazy thing, the students from UCSB will only go to him.  Both of them speak a language that's pure beauty.

    I believe in who ever is best qualified should get the job.  The employer shouldn't take age in consideration.
    In this case, age may actually be a qualification for the job. Working for the  store may be more than simply having the best technical expertise. Regardless, If you believe it isn't, then you should be free to select based on your own criteria. If  wanted younger store employees, then they should be free to choose them over older ones. It is completely nonsensical for your government to enact a law forcing employers to hire grandparents when they wouldn't want to otherwise.
    edited September 2016
  • Reply 72 of 112
    Let's be honest: some older people are dicks!  

    Add into that an air entitlement going into the interview with an 'I'm so qualified that you're lucky I even applied' attitude, I could see why he may not have been offered the role.
  • Reply 73 of 112
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,678member
    gremlin said:
    Let's be honest: some older people are dicks!  

    Add into that an air entitlement going into the interview with an 'I'm so qualified that you're lucky I even applied' attitude, I could see why he may not have been offered the role.
    I don't understand the point of your comment. One can just as easily say:
    Let's be honest: some [younger] people are dicks!  

    Add into that an air entitlement going into the interview with an 'I'm so qualified that you're lucky I even applied' attitude, I could see why he may not have been offered the role.
    EVERY FUCKING GENERATION HAS PEOPLE THAT FEEL THEY ARE ENTITLED. We see this every day on this very forum from all across the world, with different ages, income brackets, and every other demographic when it comes to what they feel Apple (or another company) owes them for being a long-time and loyal customer.
    jeffharrisbaconstangktappe
  • Reply 74 of 112
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,265member
    clexman said:
    I should start applying for jobs as a race car driver and sue if anyone hires a younger candidate. I've been driving really fast for over 20 years, so if I'm not hired it must be because of my age and nothing to do with my ability to perform a specific job related to something I have great amounts of experience in.
    In no way relevant here. This guy is vastly more qualified to do the job than any other "genius" and he has hardly fallen off in his ability. I don't really buy the customer facing argument either, not all engineers are aspergers. 

    baconstang
  • Reply 75 of 112
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,265member
    macseeker said:
    Okay, so he was turned down because he is too old. And? Why this totalitarian anti-age discrimination law exist to begin with is nonsensical. The  stores give off a certain youthful ambiance. Obviously hiring a 60+ year old would be contradictory to that. I don't want to walk into the stores and be greeted by grandparents. The youth are forward looking (generally), while older individuals tend to be stuck in their ways. If  wants to be seen as innovative, then their store employees should reflect that.
    An anecdotal story;

    The Apple Store I've been to has a few employees that are older then me.  One especially is a Genius that really knows the ends and outs of Apple.  Here is the crazy thing, the students from UCSB will only go to him.  Both of them speak a language that's pure beauty.

    I believe in who ever is best qualified should get the job.  The employer shouldn't take age in consideration.
    In this case, age may actually be a qualification for the job. Working for the  store may be more than simply having the best technical expertise. Regardless, If you believe it isn't, then you should be free to select based on your own criteria. If  wanted younger store employees, then they should be free to choose them over older ones. It is completely nonsensical for your government to enact a law forcing employers to hire grandparents when they wouldn't want to otherwise.
    Maybe. Ignoring government involvement - why does Apple think my 70 year old mother wouldn't prefer to meet an older man rather than a hipster, when she brings her Mac for repair? Often companies create a culture (and Apple retail is its own sub culture) and this one seems to be youth and temporary employee orientated. I doubt if there are too many veteran employees there. 
    baconstang
  • Reply 76 of 112
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,678member
    asdasd said:
    clexman said:
    I should start applying for jobs as a race car driver and sue if anyone hires a younger candidate. I've been driving really fast for over 20 years, so if I'm not hired it must be because of my age and nothing to do with my ability to perform a specific job related to something I have great amounts of experience in.
    This guy is vastly more qualified to do the job than any other "genius" and he has hardly fallen off in his ability.
    I see no evidence that he's either more qualified or even idealized qualified for this position. He certainly has a level of expertise that far exceeds what is needed for the technical aspects for being an Apple Genius, but his work with rewriting the macOS core to run on Intel does not automatically qualify him to work with customers in a reality environment.
    tallest skilbrertechbaconstang
  • Reply 77 of 112
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,265member
    Soli said:
    asdasd said:
    clexman said:
    I should start applying for jobs as a race car driver and sue if anyone hires a younger candidate. I've been driving really fast for over 20 years, so if I'm not hired it must be because of my age and nothing to do with my ability to perform a specific job related to something I have great amounts of experience in.
    This guy is vastly more qualified to do the job than any other "genius" and he has hardly fallen off in his ability.
    I see no evidence that he's either more qualified or even idealized qualified for this position. He certainly has a level of expertise that far exceeds what is needed for the technical aspects for being an Apple Genius, but his work with rewriting the macOS core to run on Intel does not automatically qualify him to work with customers in a reality environment.
    I dispute that working with customers is all that difficult. You go in, say my iPhone is on the blink, they run tests and fix it there and then or ask you to come back. It's not a sales job. Least I hope not. 
    edited September 2016
  • Reply 78 of 112
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,678member
    asdasd said:
    Soli said:
    asdasd said:
    clexman said:
    I should start applying for jobs as a race car driver and sue if anyone hires a younger candidate. I've been driving really fast for over 20 years, so if I'm not hired it must be because of my age and nothing to do with my ability to perform a specific job related to something I have great amounts of experience in.
    This guy is vastly more qualified to do the job than any other "genius" and he has hardly fallen off in his ability.
    I see no evidence that he's either more qualified or even idealized qualified for this position. He certainly has a level of expertise that far exceeds what is needed for the technical aspects for being an Apple Genius, but his work with rewriting the macOS core to run on Intel does not automatically qualify him to work with customers in a reality environment.
    I dispute that working with customers is all that difficult.
    I find the comment extremely comical on multiple levels.
    edited September 2016 brertechbaconstang
  • Reply 79 of 112
    jungmarkjungmark Posts: 6,658member
    There is more than meets the eye. Perhaps he's not a people person. I can't stand people. That's why I'm in IT. :)
    brertechbaconstang
  • Reply 80 of 112
    I think that companies should favour employing younger people. They are trying to get somewhere in life whereas a retired person has a moral obligation to have sorted their life and finances out by the time they retire. Also, the younger generation are easier to teach new things.
    Out of any shop I have visited, Apple seem to have the widest variety of people and there are some Apple employees who I think would have problems finding customer facing jobs elsewhere due to excessive piercings or tattoos.
    awilliams87
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