Apple SSD in Touch Bar-equipped MacBook Pro fixed to motherboard, not removable

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Comments

  • Reply 121 of 178
    noraa1138noraa1138 Posts: 31unconfirmed, member
    Honestly the best thing us frustrated users can do is contact Tim Cook.  His e-mail is [email protected].  Of course he probably won't read them all, or respond to any of them, but if enough people contact him with their dissatisfaction it may send a message.  Apple has reversed course in the past and recognized its mistakes.  I don't know if this Apple has the humility to do that, but it can't hurt.
    edited November 2016 twa440duervo
  • Reply 122 of 178
    misamisa Posts: 827member
    macdarren said:
    I have been trying to decide if I would go with a 2016 model, or a 2015 or wait for the 2017.  This would almost certainly rule out the 2016 for me.  I keep my MacBooks for about 5 years (my current one is an early 2011) and I have consistently upgraded all of them....I had almost talked myself into a 2016 despite the memory limits since 16GB has proven sufficient MOST of the time but both HD and Memory constraints plus port shortage is really making it hard to go with the 2016...maybe some of that will be redressed in the next iteration but not sure I can wait that long...maybe a 2015 will get me to 2018 or even 2020 for the next big revision...maybe there will be a 'real' Pro version in the interim.

    All the talk of pro apps needing more RAM has not really stood up for me (granted I am not an HD Video renderer or editor) but for me Virtual Machines is the ultimate RAM sucker.  If I need 2 VMs running (typically Linux and Windows and sometimes multiples of each) and each VM needs 4-8GB and I still want my Mac to operate in a reasonably normal fashion 16GB gets really tight.
    I'm not sure why anyone would want to run a virtual machine on a laptop since that would force the laptop to run in the least efficient manner, even when the VM is idle.

    That said, SSD's do not last very long, and this is very troubling. You might get, max, 2 years out of a SSD that is used in the manner a "Pro" might use it. If it's lightly used, you might get 4 or 5. 

    It's almost as if some goverment regulation on the right to repair needs to exist, which would mandate that "wear" parts (eg hard drives, fans) be user-replaceable, like you would replace tires in a car. All Apple would have to do is make the SSD ejectable like a sd card.
  • Reply 123 of 178
    misamisa Posts: 827member
    I tend to use my laptops for six years before replacing them. My first-gen MBP is being used by my twelve-year-old for homework. A SSD has a limited lifespan. This is (sort-of) okay with a tablet or a phone, but I'm looking at spending over $3,000 on the new MacBook Pro early next year (to replace my early-2011). I'm highly unlikely to do spend that kind of cash on a machine that Apple is now considering disposable when a part wears out.
    I used mine for 10. The GPU parts in a laptop are easily the first part that becomes intolerable, followed by the RAM if it wasn't maxed out at purchase. The hard drive in a laptop always needs to be replaced within the first 3 years, regardless of the technology. SSD's are far worse for wearing out, and I would never buy a laptop with the primary storage soldered to the motherboard.
  • Reply 124 of 178
    noraa1138noraa1138 Posts: 31unconfirmed, member
    An e-mail sent to Tim Cook:

    Dear Mr. Cook,
    I have been a loyal (and happy) Mac user since I was old enough to use computers.  I stuck with Apple through it’s struggles in the 90’s and was thrilled when Steve Jobs returned to Apple and revitalized the company.  I have owned Mac’s ranging from the Performa 638 in the early 90’s (which had a built-in tv tuner which was just awesome at the time - especially for a kid in middle school), to a Power Computing clone, to the first iBook, a PowerMac, a PowerBook, a MacBook Pro, and currently a 27” iMac.  The bottom line is I love Apple, I love their products (I also own an iPhone 7 and the 2nd generation iPad Mini).  The macOS operating system is 2nd to none, and while iOS has it’s fair share of short-comings, it’s a solid OS that has evolved considerably over the years.

    However, over the past couple of years, I have become more and more frustrated by some of Apple’s hardware decisions, and all of that came to a head with the recent MacBook Pro announcements.  There has been a lot of vocal criticisms of these computers floating around the internet, some of it justifiable criticisms and some of it the typical Apple doom and gloom.

    In this e-mail I am going to try and breakthrough the noise, and hopefully explain just why some people are worried and frustrated with Apple.

    The biggest frustrations are coming from the “pro” users.  While such users are becoming more and more of a niche community, they are nonetheless the most loyal of Apple users.  A lot of these users, like myself, have been using Apple products for well over a decade.  Unfortunately this segment of users is seeing Apple less and less committed to the pro market.  This started a few years ago with the neglect of the Mac Pro, and the eventual replacement of it with the 2013 Mac Pro - an undeniably gorgeous and well engineered machine, but with so many compromises as to make it un-attractive to most users.  Even worse is the fact that this Mac Pro has not been updated since it was released 3 years ago.

    This brings me to the latest MacBook Pros.  Again, these computers are undeniably well built and well engineered.  The frustrations that most people feel around these computers however is that they don’t feel like “pro” machines, with too many compromises for the sake of thinness.  In addition, and for myself this a big one, they are drastically overpriced.  The main complaints are a lack of ports, the inability to upgrade the RAM beyond 16GB, and the lack of any replaceable parts
    Let’s go through these complaints one by one.  The all-in approach with Thunderbolt 3/USB-C is going to be a frustrating transition for many, however I think it is a worth while goal; and as Apple has proven in the past, an all-in approach, while painful at first, pays dividends in the future by ushering in a new era.  What many people are feeling, however, is that some very, very hand ports are being removed for no good reason.  The biggest of these ports is the SD-card slot.  Phil Schiller mention that such a port is cumbersome, as the SD card sticks out of the computer.  However, I fail to see how forcing photographers to use an external SD card reader is any less cumbersome.  While many new digital cameras, both consumer level and professional level, offer wireless transferring, such transfers are incredibly slow and far more cumbersome than being able to pop out the SD card and plug it in to the computer.  In addition, the removal of the MagSafe port, arguably one of these cleverest innovations by Apple, seems like a really odd decisions.  While Thunderbolt 3 is extremely versatile, and having the ability to charge the computer from any of 4 ports is nice, I truly don’t feel that the tradeoff is worth it.  At a bare minimum Apple should have provided a new charger, with a built in MagSafe Thunderbolt connection, similar to this 3rd-party product being offered by Griffin (https://griffintechnology.com/intl/breaksafe-magnetic-usb-c-power-cable).  While the design is far from perfect, as removing the magnet part that plugs directly in the USB-C port is cumbersome to do, I would think Apple could come up with a better design.  Instead, the MagSafe port was completely abandoned.

    The decision to limit the MacBook Pro to 16GB of RAM is a very frustrating compromise for pro users.  I understand Phil Schiller’s argument, that supporting DDR4 to allow for up to 32GB of RAM would adversely effect battery life, I think that should be a choice for the user to make.  Many pro users would be more than happy to sacrifice a couple of hours of battery life to go up to 32GB of RAM.

    Finally, this brings us to the lack of any user replaceable parts.  It’s been frustrating enough the RAM on the previous generation Retina MacBook Pros and MacBook Airs have been soldered directly to the logic board, but at least the SSDs (even with their proprietary connector) were user upgradeable and replaceable post-purchase.  However, even that option is now gone as the SSD is also soldered directly to the logic board on the new MacBook Pros with the TouchBar (though the non-TouchBar MacBook Pro still offers a replaceable SSD.  That seems like a very odd choice, allowing the SSD to be replaced on a lesser machine, and not on the top of the line machines).  While I’m sure a minority of users actually upgrade their machines post purchase, the ability to do so has been a staple of the pro machines since the beginning.  Case in point, my father currently is using a 2008 15” MacBook Pro that I have upgraded to 8GBs of RAM and a SATA SSD.  The computer is still going strong at 8 years old.  With these new MacBook Pros, there is an unfortunate planned obsolescence, which is a slap in the face to many pro users.
    As you can see, there are number of legitimate frustrations with these new MacBook Pros, and it is a troubling sign for many pro users.

    While Apple appears to have noble intentions with these machine, creating a lighter and thinner computer, the compromises for such a design on a Pro machine seem hardly worth it.  That is to say, if these computers were marketed for the average user, like the now discontinued MacBook Airs, and priced as such, they would be truly great machines.  However, with the compromises made, these simply are not pro machines.

    According to Phil Schiller, the initial orders of these MacBook Pros is quite high, however I am also aware of a number of canceled orders after the the realization of the various unnecessary compromises made to them.

    The concern about Apple’s commitment to the Mac goes beyond the Pro segment as well, as it extends to the entire Mac line.  As stated above, the Mac Pro has not been updated in 3 years, which is just criminal.  The iMac hasn’t been updated in over a year, and the Mac Mini in nearly a year and a half.  A lack of any mention of these computers at the “Hello Again” event is very troubling for many Mac users.  In addition, the killing of the MacBook Air is extremely sad.  They were great machines, and the compromises made to them for the sake of thinner and lighter was a great fit for a consumer machine.  It appears that the non-TouchBar MacBook Pro is designed as a replacement for the MacBook Air, but it is priced $500 more than a similarly specced MacBook Air.  The lack of including the extension cord for the power adapter of the new MacBook Pros seems like nothing more than a cash grab on Apple’s part; and while reducing the prices on the various adapters now required for the MacBook Pros is a nice gesture by Apple, I can’t help but feel somewhat insulted by it.  Reducing the price of an adapter by 10 or so dollars after purchasing an already overpriced machine doesn’t feel good.

    Finally, Apple’s response to these criticisms feels like nothing less than arrogance on Apple’s part.  Phil Schiller claiming to be surprised by the criticisms, his argument surrounding the SD card, and a justification of the much higher price seemingly shows that Apple is somewhat out of touch by their Mac user base.

    At the moment there is a lot of uncertainty in the air surrounding the Mac line; and for the loyal Mac user base the actions by Apple feel at the least troubling, and a most there is outright anger around said actions.  I truly hope I am wrong, and that next year Apple will release some killer new Macs across the board, as well as recognizing some of the compromises surrounding your pro machines were ill-designed.

    Finally, the frustrations, and at times anger towards Apple is simply because your users love Apple, and want to see Apple perform the best that it can.  Right now, myself and countless others don’t feel that that is the case.

    Thank you for taking the time to read this e-mail.  While I don’t expect a response, I hope that you can take these criticisms to heart and realize that your user base simply loves Apple enough to be so vocal in their frustrations.
    avon b7titantigerduervo
  • Reply 125 of 178
    I read somewhere that the real problem with the SSD being soldered is that, if the logic board fails (as has apparently happened in the past with certain Mbpro models), one could completely lose all the data on the drive. Is this true? If yes, wouldn't this be the greater concern than not being able to upgrade the SSD down the line?
  • Reply 126 of 178
    lukeilukei Posts: 381member
    sog35 said:
    This is needed to keep the form factor as small as possible
    Isn't it a massive error by lousy CEO, only good for being COO Tim Cook?
  • Reply 127 of 178
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,887member
    I read somewhere that the real problem with the SSD being soldered is that, if the logic board fails (as has apparently happened in the past with certain Mbpro models), one could completely lose all the data on the drive. Is this true? If yes, wouldn't this be the greater concern than not being able to upgrade the SSD down the line?
    That is true as far as I know although most people will have current backups to fall back on. 

    The bigger issue is when the SSD itself fails out of warranty. The repair will not be cheap, it will be harder (probably much harder to do yourself). 

    It just one of the serious compromises they made to make these things thinner. Apart from simply not being able to upgrade capacity down the line if you want to and at lower prices.


  • Reply 128 of 178
    misa said:
    I tend to use my laptops for six years before replacing them. My first-gen MBP is being used by my twelve-year-old for homework. A SSD has a limited lifespan. This is (sort-of) okay with a tablet or a phone, but I'm looking at spending over $3,000 on the new MacBook Pro early next year (to replace my early-2011). I'm highly unlikely to do spend that kind of cash on a machine that Apple is now considering disposable when a part wears out.
    I used mine for 10. The GPU parts in a laptop are easily the first part that becomes intolerable, followed by the RAM if it wasn't maxed out at purchase. The hard drive in a laptop always needs to be replaced within the first 3 years, regardless of the technology. SSD's are far worse for wearing out, and I would never buy a laptop with the primary storage soldered to the motherboard.
    Ignorance is bliss, right? SSD wears out only after several hundreds of terabytes of writes:
    The SSD Endurance Experiment: They're all dead - The Tech Report - Page 1

    And to know that a company of Apple grade would sell you a component that will fail after two years is certainly another bliss...
    edited November 2016 Soliwilliamlondon
  • Reply 129 of 178
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,887member
    Well said noraa1138.

    Feedback is important but is a black hole in the sense that only the receiver sees it. Making your mail public also serves a purpose.

    I happen to agree with virtually everything you said. Apple has gone off the tracks. The 'hello again' event was not worthy of the title and saying the Mac is an important part of the Apple ecosystem only to go into Christmas with 'old' hardware and not even mention the iMac or Mini would seem to go against that sentiment.
    edited November 2016 duervo
  • Reply 130 of 178
    xixo said:
    Apple's internal is NVMExpress over PCIe. That means an internal Thunderbolt SSD. If it is Thunderbolt then it doesn't matter whether it is internal or external. So you moan for $20 worth of an external case?
    please tell me where I can buy an external thunderbolt case for $20.
    I said case, not interface. I didn't say Thunderbolt would cost $20. If you want a Thunderbolt external you'll of course pay for the Thunderbolt. $20 was referring to the case only.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 131 of 178
    I read somewhere that the real problem with the SSD being soldered is that, if the logic board fails (as has apparently happened in the past with certain Mbpro models), one could completely lose all the data on the drive. Is this true? If yes, wouldn't this be the greater concern than not being able to upgrade the SSD down the line?

    Ever hear of TimeMachine? Cool feature! What "Pro" would not back their stuff up? For that matter, why would anyone not back their stuff up somewhere? Computers can fail at any time. It could be a day after you take it out of the box, month, 6 months, or 6 years. There's no excuse for backing your stuff up. None! As long as you're doing this, you should never lose anything. 

    Yeah it would be true if the laptop totally died. The same is also true however if the flash storage died as well. 
    williamlondon
  • Reply 132 of 178
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,387member

    I tend to use my laptops for six years before replacing them. My first-gen MBP is being used by my twelve-year-old for homework. A SSD has a limited lifespan. This is (sort-of) okay with a tablet or a phone, but I'm looking at spending over $3,000 on the new MacBook Pro early next year (to replace my early-2011). I'm highly unlikely to do spend that kind of cash on a machine that Apple is now considering disposable when a part wears out.
    They wear out only after several hundreds of terabytes of writes. See
    http://techreport.com/review/27909/the-ssd-endurance-experiment-theyre-all-dead

    Even if it was removable, you wouldn't want to replace it because these SSDs have an Apple controller and they run on NVMExpress and not on SATA-3 like the rest of the industry. Apple is the first to implement NVMExpress SSDs. SATA-3 SSDs are limited to 300-400 MB/s. NVMExpress peaks at 2-3 GB/s. If any PC maker launches a laptop with NVMExpress next year, you can bet that it will cost you much more than that $3000 you're willing to spend.
    I don't think you're correct about all other OEM's being more expensive and definitely not correct about Apple being the first to offer them as a search for "laptop with NVMExpress SSD" comes up with a few.

    EDIT: To the person giving my post a downvote: Is because it isn't true or you didn't like knowing about it? 
    edited November 2016 avon b7
  • Reply 133 of 178
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    dysamoria said:
    With 256GB no one will feel any squeeze under normal circumstances. 512 GB may be needed to partition for BootCamp, and that, only if they will store a lot of high end games.  

    Even if they feel, they will not go immediately external, they will go iCloud first. In this transitional period (from HD to SSD) Apple leverages the relatively small capacity of SSD by offering cloud storage to its customers and integrating its file system with cloud storage. iCloud based Documents and Desktop folders in macOS Sierra work pretty well.
    To photographers and musicians with gigabytes of data per project and slow internet access, this is the ridiculous claim of non-content-creators with privileged access to fast internet. Not everyone lives near google fiber and Verizon wet the bed on the fiber optic deals they made with the federal government because they don't like investing in anything anymore, like most huge corporations.
    Pros have SAN.  Even small shops can afford a decent NAS and Ethernet.  Pros have local raid and external drives which will benefit from USB-C/TB3.

    And finally, Pros can BTO a bigger drive.  If the replacement cycle is three years it's no big deal. For an indie or small business the cycle can be a bit longer but given the time savings from being your own IT the risk of a part failure in year 4 or 5 is worth it over windows.  Unless you have a big shift in workflow (like going from 1080 to 4K) your machine doesn't get slower.
    williamlondonindyfx
  • Reply 134 of 178
    macxpressmacxpress Posts: 5,871member
    noraa1138 said:
    An e-mail sent to Tim Cook:

    Dear Mr. Cook,
    I have been a loyal (and happy) Mac user since I was old enough to use computers.  I stuck with Apple through it’s struggles in the 90’s and was thrilled when Steve Jobs returned to Apple and revitalized the company.  I have owned Mac’s ranging from the Performa 638 in the early 90’s (which had a built-in tv tuner which was just awesome at the time - especially for a kid in middle school), to a Power Computing clone, to the first iBook, a PowerMac, a PowerBook, a MacBook Pro, and currently a 27” iMac.  The bottom line is I love Apple, I love their products (I also own an iPhone 7 and the 2nd generation iPad Mini).  The macOS operating system is 2nd to none, and while iOS has it’s fair share of short-comings, it’s a solid OS that has evolved considerably over the years.

    However, over the past couple of years, I have become more and more frustrated by some of Apple’s hardware decisions, and all of that came to a head with the recent MacBook Pro announcements.  There has been a lot of vocal criticisms of these computers floating around the internet, some of it justifiable criticisms and some of it the typical Apple doom and gloom.

    In this e-mail I am going to try and breakthrough the noise, and hopefully explain just why some people are worried and frustrated with Apple.

    The biggest frustrations are coming from the “pro” users.  While such users are becoming more and more of a niche community, they are nonetheless the most loyal of Apple users.  A lot of these users, like myself, have been using Apple products for well over a decade.  Unfortunately this segment of users is seeing Apple less and less committed to the pro market.  This started a few years ago with the neglect of the Mac Pro, and the eventual replacement of it with the 2013 Mac Pro - an undeniably gorgeous and well engineered machine, but with so many compromises as to make it un-attractive to most users.  Even worse is the fact that this Mac Pro has not been updated since it was released 3 years ago.

    This brings me to the latest MacBook Pros.  Again, these computers are undeniably well built and well engineered.  The frustrations that most people feel around these computers however is that they don’t feel like “pro” machines, with too many compromises for the sake of thinness.  In addition, and for myself this a big one, they are drastically overpriced.  The main complaints are a lack of ports, the inability to upgrade the RAM beyond 16GB, and the lack of any replaceable parts
    Let’s go through these complaints one by one.  The all-in approach with Thunderbolt 3/USB-C is going to be a frustrating transition for many, however I think it is a worth while goal; and as Apple has proven in the past, an all-in approach, while painful at first, pays dividends in the future by ushering in a new era.  What many people are feeling, however, is that some very, very hand ports are being removed for no good reason.  The biggest of these ports is the SD-card slot.  Phil Schiller mention that such a port is cumbersome, as the SD card sticks out of the computer.  However, I fail to see how forcing photographers to use an external SD card reader is any less cumbersome.  While many new digital cameras, both consumer level and professional level, offer wireless transferring, such transfers are incredibly slow and far more cumbersome than being able to pop out the SD card and plug it in to the computer.  In addition, the removal of the MagSafe port, arguably one of these cleverest innovations by Apple, seems like a really odd decisions.  While Thunderbolt 3 is extremely versatile, and having the ability to charge the computer from any of 4 ports is nice, I truly don’t feel that the tradeoff is worth it.  At a bare minimum Apple should have provided a new charger, with a built in MagSafe Thunderbolt connection, similar to this 3rd-party product being offered by Griffin (https://griffintechnology.com/intl/breaksafe-magnetic-usb-c-power-cable).  While the design is far from perfect, as removing the magnet part that plugs directly in the USB-C port is cumbersome to do, I would think Apple could come up with a better design.  Instead, the MagSafe port was completely abandoned.

    The decision to limit the MacBook Pro to 16GB of RAM is a very frustrating compromise for pro users.  I understand Phil Schiller’s argument, that supporting DDR4 to allow for up to 32GB of RAM would adversely effect battery life, I think that should be a choice for the user to make.  Many pro users would be more than happy to sacrifice a couple of hours of battery life to go up to 32GB of RAM.

    Finally, this brings us to the lack of any user replaceable parts.  It’s been frustrating enough the RAM on the previous generation Retina MacBook Pros and MacBook Airs have been soldered directly to the logic board, but at least the SSDs (even with their proprietary connector) were user upgradeable and replaceable post-purchase.  However, even that option is now gone as the SSD is also soldered directly to the logic board on the new MacBook Pros with the TouchBar (though the non-TouchBar MacBook Pro still offers a replaceable SSD.  That seems like a very odd choice, allowing the SSD to be replaced on a lesser machine, and not on the top of the line machines).  While I’m sure a minority of users actually upgrade their machines post purchase, the ability to do so has been a staple of the pro machines since the beginning.  Case in point, my father currently is using a 2008 15” MacBook Pro that I have upgraded to 8GBs of RAM and a SATA SSD.  The computer is still going strong at 8 years old.  With these new MacBook Pros, there is an unfortunate planned obsolescence, which is a slap in the face to many pro users.
    As you can see, there are number of legitimate frustrations with these new MacBook Pros, and it is a troubling sign for many pro users.

    While Apple appears to have noble intentions with these machine, creating a lighter and thinner computer, the compromises for such a design on a Pro machine seem hardly worth it.  That is to say, if these computers were marketed for the average user, like the now discontinued MacBook Airs, and priced as such, they would be truly great machines.  However, with the compromises made, these simply are not pro machines.

    According to Phil Schiller, the initial orders of these MacBook Pros is quite high, however I am also aware of a number of canceled orders after the the realization of the various unnecessary compromises made to them.

    The concern about Apple’s commitment to the Mac goes beyond the Pro segment as well, as it extends to the entire Mac line.  As stated above, the Mac Pro has not been updated in 3 years, which is just criminal.  The iMac hasn’t been updated in over a year, and the Mac Mini in nearly a year and a half.  A lack of any mention of these computers at the “Hello Again” event is very troubling for many Mac users.  In addition, the killing of the MacBook Air is extremely sad.  They were great machines, and the compromises made to them for the sake of thinner and lighter was a great fit for a consumer machine.  It appears that the non-TouchBar MacBook Pro is designed as a replacement for the MacBook Air, but it is priced $500 more than a similarly specced MacBook Air.  The lack of including the extension cord for the power adapter of the new MacBook Pros seems like nothing more than a cash grab on Apple’s part; and while reducing the prices on the various adapters now required for the MacBook Pros is a nice gesture by Apple, I can’t help but feel somewhat insulted by it.  Reducing the price of an adapter by 10 or so dollars after purchasing an already overpriced machine doesn’t feel good.

    Finally, Apple’s response to these criticisms feels like nothing less than arrogance on Apple’s part.  Phil Schiller claiming to be surprised by the criticisms, his argument surrounding the SD card, and a justification of the much higher price seemingly shows that Apple is somewhat out of touch by their Mac user base.

    At the moment there is a lot of uncertainty in the air surrounding the Mac line; and for the loyal Mac user base the actions by Apple feel at the least troubling, and a most there is outright anger around said actions.  I truly hope I am wrong, and that next year Apple will release some killer new Macs across the board, as well as recognizing some of the compromises surrounding your pro machines were ill-designed.

    Finally, the frustrations, and at times anger towards Apple is simply because your users love Apple, and want to see Apple perform the best that it can.  Right now, myself and countless others don’t feel that that is the case.

    Thank you for taking the time to read this e-mail.  While I don’t expect a response, I hope that you can take these criticisms to heart and realize that your user base simply loves Apple enough to be so vocal in their frustrations.
    You most likely wasted your time. Like he has time to read a book. If you want to get his attention you have to be quick to the point. Nobody cares how long you've been using a Mac. That doesn't warrant anything. 
    williamlondonfastasleep
  • Reply 135 of 178
    WestCoaster and djames4242 are quite right. People who should be buying Macs are buying MS Surface. People do not need thin Macs. Ive should be told he is no longer responsible for Mac computers.
  • Reply 136 of 178
    sflocal said:
    Dear Apple,

    Stop doing this shit.  No one likes it.  It's of zero benefit to your customers.  We don't care if it allows the laptop to be two microns thinner or a tenth of a gram lighter.  Two things should always be user upgradeable:  RAM and a hard drive.  If the motherboard or some power port is hard to access and replace, so be it.  Most people will never touch those things.  But if my hard drive craps out or the RAM goes blinky, I should be able to pop open a case, pull the bad part out and snap the good one in.  

    I love Apple products, but this shit is getting old.


    Waahhh.... 

    It's a non-issue for just about everyone.  The fact that you feel progress means denying you a rarely-used ability is of zero consequence for just about everyone else.

    Go cry elsewhere.  This is a solid update, removes a known failure-point, and uses the fastest SSD drives around.  Get lost.
    Then you should be able to easily tell me not only how often these "failure points" actually fail and how much faster the drive is in this configuration over one that is removable.
    the data is out there, go find it. 

    and tell me -- do you likewise moan about the inability to swap out HD or RAM in your ipad? iphone? ipod? nope, nope, and nope. 

    same thing. appliance computing is here to stay. it adds value for the vast majority of customers. DIY tinkering is a fringe case, and if you expect apple to halt progress for it then i really can't take you seriously. 
    1.  I'm not the one making the assertion that this change somehow is a benefit to users because of connector failures.  It's not on me to go prove a point others are trying to make.  Put up or shut up.

    2.  No, because as I said there is a difference in very compact handheld electronics and something the size of a notebook computer.  There is hardly any space available inside an iPhone or iPad.  There are finger width gaps inside the casing of the new MBP.  The soldering of the RAM and SSD do not save us any space that wasn't already available.

    3.  You keep asserting that it adds value without actually showing how.  Merely repeating the assertion doesn't make it more true.  Explain to me what tangible benefits making RAM and SSDs non-user-replaceable bring to me that offset the tangible benefits they took away from the user.
  • Reply 137 of 178

    avon b7 said:
    macxpress said:

    This is Pro?
    I didn't know Pro meant removable storage? I wonder how many times someone has actually changed their storage later on?
    pro enterprise software dev here, let me chime in. never -- never is the number of times I've later changed the storage on my MBPs. or any of my client-issued laptops, for that matter. they have a lifespan and once its expired i or they replace it. it's that simple.
    Let me counter that with the fact that I have upgraded the internal storage on every MBP that my family has had. As for the lifespan, it is until they fail but some get requalified as secondary machines when we get a new one so a user could have two active machines at once.

    There is a healthy aftermarket trade for upgrades to some machines.

    Am I right in thinking that, should these soldered on drives suffer some kind of failure, the entire motherboard will need replacing?
    you tinkering with your family computers has jack to do with pro users. we don't DIY tinker with our machines in enterprise, we get new machines when the lifespan has ended. 

    just admit it -- the DIY tinkerer is a fringe case. you don't represent any sort of notable demographic.

    this is has been apple's direction since the original Mac. it ain't changing. only the bitching about it is constant. 
    This is patently untrue.  I've worked in the graphic design field.  And I worked in marketing, who interfaced with graphic designers constantly.  Pro users do "DIY tinker" with their machines.  That doesn't have to mean they are always in there overclocking processors, swapping out processors, installing some elaborate cooling system and what not.  But they do expand drive capacity.  They do swap out hard drives if there are indications that a drive may be failing.  They do add RAM if needed.  These are easy fixes, not hobbyist "build you own box" type oddities.  No one is asking for Mac to be a tech version of a Lego set.  But there are a few easy to replace parts that there is no real need to make non-upgradeable.  
  • Reply 138 of 178
    macxpress said:
    fallenjt said:
    I don't understand the whining behind this. If you can spend $1800+ for a laptop, why skim $200 for the storage? Really don't get it!
    Because some people can't spend $1800 for a laptop.  It might be a stretch for them to spend $1499 for one and they can't afford pricey upgrades from Apple.  But they want to remain Apple customers and they buy the best one they can afford.  And if they need more storage later, they used to be able to know they could easily snag a larger drive off Amazon or from OWC for a good price and pop it in themselves in minutes.
    Then go buy something else. Nobody is forcing you to buy a new Mac. Its only a matter of time until other manufacturers follow suit with the rare exceptions. 
    Why is this always the response from a certain segment of the Mac user base?  I like Macs.  But when Apple does something like this, I prefer that it be something of genuine benefit if they are going to take capabilities away from me.  How is that some radical opinion to hold that warrants a "go buy something else", "take it or leave it" kind of response?  
    because you're conveniently ignoring the advantages of these tightly integrated machines. speed is one. power efficiency another. mass is another -- thinner and lighter portables are awesome. it's less for me to carry and that has value. all completely ignored by you. 
    Yet none of these benefits were delivered to us in any appreciable or noticeable fashion by the decisions on the SSD and RAM being soldered in.  The speed and power efficiency gains are minimal at best.  The weight of the solder vs a connector is measured in grams or fractions of a gram.  The case has plenty of room inside so it would have been just as thin.

    I'm not ignoring any of these things.  I'm actually pointing out that this change in the MBP fails to deliver on any of the things that such a move would normally bring to the table, as it does in the iPhone for instance.  The MBP without the Touch Bar has a user replaceable drive.  There was simply no reasonable excuse for arbitrarily making the one that costs $300 more not have this ability as well.
  • Reply 139 of 178
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,887member
    The issue of soldered on SSDs opens another can of worms: Privacy. If your motherboard fails under warranty, you technically have to hand the faulty part over to Apple (in this case the motherboard would include the SSD and its data). From then on, I believe there is no protocol in place to transparently destroy that data or get it back to the owner. In protocol terms even if the user has encrypted the drive it would still not be enough.

    In Europe I believe the consumer has the right to receive the part that is replaced during any repair or sign it off for safe disposal/recycling.

    I've had a few platter based drives fail under warranty but Apple has always refused me (through its dealers) the faulty part claiming that the dealer has to return the part to Apple for them to certify the repair was necessary under warranty. I wasn't too concerned as the drives themselves were dead but that all changes now. The data on an SSD soldered onto a faulty motherboard could still be live and potentially accessible with the right tools (hardware or software). When the board begins its journey back to wherever it goes, anyone in the chain could potentially gain access to your data. This quite worrying, given that nowadays our data can include very sensitive information.

    People have long criticised copy shops for not wiping the hard disks on their photocopiers before they send them in for recycling. This could be far worse.

    Apple at the very least should provide for safe return or destruction of data on any storage device that goes back to them.
  • Reply 140 of 178
    indyfxindyfx Posts: 321member
    dysamoria said:
    sflocal said:
    What percentage of MacBook Pro users have ever replaced their hard drive or SSD drive?  I'll bet it's 1-2%, if even that.

    This is a non-issue.  If it means better reliability by removing a known point of failure (albeit rare), and it being the fastest SSD drive speeds anywhere, I'm all for it.

    No tears are shed from me.  I'm waiting for them to be in the stores so I can see one for myself, and likely purchase one.


    Myself and several photographers and other Mac users I know have replaced drives and upgraded RAM on their MacBooks...

    Disposable computers are the antithesis of "consumer friendly" or "environmentally friendly", Apple. 
    I have to strongly disagree, and your obliviousness to the (actual) reality of the situation really makes me question whether you own Mac or just troll Apple News sites.
    My biggest issue with your reply is using line "disposable computers", nothing could be further from the truth. Upgrading computers by selling (or trading) up to a new one is the ultimate in environmental friendliness it's zero waste. The Product is actually used (by second and possibly 3rd or 4th owners) to the ultimate end of it's serviceable lifetime. They are also made of highly recyclable materials 
    Windows Machines are "upgradeable" but generate waste when you upgrade them (old components that are typically landfilled) Interestingly enough most windows laptops have a far shorter service life (based on countless TCO studies) than their "un-upgradable" Mac counterparts 
    williamlondon
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