If indeed the sales are falling away more than previous years which is not proven, The reason might be the fact that the iP6 was such a great phone it is really hard to make it better apart from a faster processor and camera. So all you geniuses how exactly can the phone be made any better except a few incremental improvements. Its easy to criticize but where are your suggestions? You don't have any do you because you are just the kind of people Jobs would never have hired. You are idiots who work at companies who design square boxes and dump crappy hardware in them and flog them 2 for the price of one. Oh right !
It's an expensive phone. In Europe the phone starts at $825 including 23% tax. $635 excluding tax.
I reckon if the phone started at €649 instead of €779 it'd be an awful lot more popular for new phone buyers here.
Gee 23% tax, in the US it more like 6% to 8%. No wonder the EU is in trouble you have to tax the hell out of people so they can pay for all the free services people coming to the EU want. Now you know why the UK decided to exit
Believe me. The UK is waking up to some harsh realities of Brexit and nothing real has actually happened yet. V.A.T is 20% (general) and will probably rise as a result of Brexit. Sales tax varies across the EU depending on the member state. Some items are subject to reduced tax or zero tax. Sales taxes are necessary but when they go over 20%, can be the difference between purchasing something or not (or choosing a lower priced item). If your currency is strong, the situation can be somewhat mitigated but if it is weak, you are in trouble (the buyer that just cannot afford the item, and the manufacturer that can't get the sale). All the manufacturer can do is reduce margins or release cheaper products. Pound Sterling has taken a battering because of Brexit. V.A.T is on the 20% point and Apple is not currently producing ANY new affordable machines. I fully expect Apple sales to implode in the UK and see significant falls in the rest of the EU. That in itself is cause for concern but the other cause for concern is lost market share. Apple will say that while it's products are sold at high margins, volume is not an issue. This is a crass error. A large part of the current user base are not 'Mac users'. They are 'users' who use Macs and or iDevices. There is a massive difference. They might be buying Apple products today but tomorrow they could just as easily be buying from competitors. If your market share starts to dive you will be in trouble quickly unless you have enough critical mass to keep things going. The fall in share price will be the first issue.
iPhone 8 might not be enough if they stick to ultra premium pricing.
The Mac, as it currently stands, exists for 4 major markets.
1. FCPX users 2. LPX users 3. Software Developers (iOS or otherwise) 4. Post-secondary students
All four have strong and growing communities. There are many other Pro apps that pro users use on a Mac (ie: Adobe / Autodesk) but those also run equally well on Windows. So if you don't fall into one of those 3 categories, there's a good chance that you don't NEED a Mac.
As a side note, as "PC" sales decline, laptops / desktops are moving to the premium end of the market and becoming specialized tools. The smartphone, and in a more limited way the tablet, have taken over the mainstream computing market.
Edit: Added post-secondary students as major market
5. IBM Worldwide 6. Windows users 7. you name it...
So, Windows is the default and Mac is in question only if you NEED it. Is that it?
Do not underestimate Apple's penetration in the corporate market. Even outside corporate market, many professionals (not self-claimed ones) and business owners prefer Mac. The first three ones in your list are vertical markets and vertical markets are not Apple's main target, never been. Consider FCPX and LPX as "benevolence". Apple produces for the mass market, not for vertical markets. According to Steve Jobs, "PCs will become trucks" but we are far away from that point yet. Maybe the smartphone will never take over the mainstream computing market, we don't know that yet. Did all smartphone owners throw away their home computers and laptops? We just left "one computer for all" era of the 2000s and entered "multiple devices for everyone" era.
"Maybe the smartphone will never take over the mainstream computing market"
It already has. PC sales stand at around 250 million units per year. Smartphones are just under 2 billion units a year. To me that's called taking over. Everyone, or at least everyone that can afford one, will need a smartphone. Not everyone will need a PC, Mac, or even iPad.
"So, Windows is the default and Mac is in question only if you NEED it. Is that it"
I used Mac because that's the topic of discussion. It can equally apply that the same situation will happen to Windows PCs.
"Apple produces for the mass market"
The mass market is smartphones. And in a distant second, iPads (I could say tablets but essentially the tablet market is an iPad market in terms of tablets that actually get used)
It's an expensive phone. In Europe the phone starts at $825 including 23% tax. $635 excluding tax.
I reckon if the phone started at €649 instead of €779 it'd be an awful lot more popular for new phone buyers here.
Gee 23% tax, in the US it more like 6% to 8%. No wonder the EU is in trouble you have to tax the hell out of people so they can pay for all the free services people coming to the EU want. Now you know why the UK decided to exit
The EU doesn't set a sales tax, and doesn't directly provide free services, countries are free to tax and provide what they want. The UK has a 20% VAT rate now, similar to most other countries in the bloc, but not because of any obligation, and it'll likely have the exact same rate after the exit.
It's an expensive phone. In Europe the phone starts at $825 including 23% tax. $635 excluding tax.
I reckon if the phone started at €649 instead of €779 it'd be an awful lot more popular for new phone buyers here.
Gee 23% tax, in the US it more like 6% to 8%. No wonder the EU is in trouble you have to tax the hell out of people so they can pay for all the free services people coming to the EU want. Now you know why the UK decided to exit
Believe me. The UK is waking up to some harsh realities of Brexit and nothing real has actually happened yet. V.A.T is 20% (general) and will probably rise as a result of Brexit. Sales tax varies across the EU depending on the member state. Some items are subject to reduced tax or zero tax. Sales taxes are necessary but when they go over 20%, can be the difference between purchasing something or not (or choosing a lower priced item). If your currency is strong, the situation can be somewhat mitigated but if it is weak, you are in trouble (the buyer that just cannot afford the item, and the manufacturer that can't get the sale). All the manufacturer can do is reduce margins or release cheaper products. Pound Sterling has taken a battering because of Brexit. V.A.T is on the 20% point and Apple is not currently producing ANY new affordable machines. I fully expect Apple sales to implode in the UK and see significant falls in the rest of the EU. That in itself is cause for concern but the other cause for concern is lost market share. Apple will say that while it's products are sold at high margins, volume is not an issue. This is a crass error. A large part of the current user base are not 'Mac users'. They are 'users' who use Macs and or iDevices. There is a massive difference. They might be buying Apple products today but tomorrow they could just as easily be buying from competitors. If your market share starts to dive you will be in trouble quickly unless you have enough critical mass to keep things going. The fall in share price will be the first issue.
iPhone 8 might not be enough if they stick to ultra premium pricing.
The Mac, as it currently stands, exists for 4 major markets.
1. FCPX users 2. LPX users 3. Software Developers (iOS or otherwise) 4. Post-secondary students
All four have strong and growing communities. There are many other Pro apps that pro users use on a Mac (ie: Adobe / Autodesk) but those also run equally well on Windows. So if you don't fall into one of those 3 categories, there's a good chance that you don't NEED a Mac.
As a side note, as "PC" sales decline, laptops / desktops are moving to the premium end of the market and becoming specialized tools. The smartphone, and in a more limited way the tablet, have taken over the mainstream computing market.
Edit: Added post-secondary students as major market
5. IBM Worldwide 6. Windows users 7. you name it...
So, Windows is the default and Mac is in question only if you NEED it. Is that it?
Do not underestimate Apple's penetration in the corporate market. Even outside corporate market, many professionals (not self-claimed ones) and business owners prefer Mac. The first three ones in your list are vertical markets and vertical markets are not Apple's main target, never been. Consider FCPX and LPX as "benevolence". Apple produces for the mass market, not for vertical markets. According to Steve Jobs, "PCs will become trucks" but we are far away from that point yet. Maybe the smartphone will never take over the mainstream computing market, we don't know that yet. Did all smartphone owners throw away their home computers and laptops? We just left "one computer for all" era of the 2000s and entered "multiple devices for everyone" era.
"Maybe the smartphone will never take over the mainstream computing market"
It already has. PC sales stand at around 250 million units per year. Smartphones are just under 2 billion units a year. To me that's called taking over. Everyone, or at least everyone that can afford one, will need a smartphone. Not everyone will need a PC, Mac, or even iPad.
"So, Windows is the default and Mac is in question only if you NEED it. Is that it"
I used Mac because that's the topic of discussion. It can equally apply that the same situation will happen to Windows PCs.
"Apple produces for the mass market"
The mass market is smartphones. And in a distant second, iPads (I could say tablets but essentially the tablet market is an iPad market in terms of tablets that actually get used)
If you say "laptops will take over desktops" then you are right because these are devices of the same category (computers). But smartphones are totally a different category of device, how do you compare the two? Smartphone's functions are limited to accessibility, accessibility to information, accessibility to communication. Computers are for productivity. Try to be productive with a smartphone. Smartphone is a substitute only for a very narrow subset of a computer's functions. This is why Apple has implemented some of iPhone's core features into the Mac: continuity, FaceTime, call from iPhone, SMS on the Mac etc... When the two are present this is the Mac which takes over the iPhone. You don't use your iPhone for iMessage when your Mac is reachable. You don't even use your iPhone for calls, you start and receive calls directly on your Mac.
When you consider a family of four, then the smartphone will sell four times than the computer because a single computer may serve all four, but everyone will need her/his smartphone. That doesn't mean that the smartphone has taken over the computer. The computer is still there and still needed. But a computer is shareable while the smarphone is not shareable. Since the smartphone is tightly associated with a person, smartphone comes first in fulfilling personal needs. There was such a huge market and Apple saw it first.
But the mass market is both smartphones and computers. These are just different segments of the same mass market. Once an iPhone is sold to a person, the next target is to sell an iPad and eventually a Mac to that person. Apple has achieved this with the exploding iPad sales. Functionally the iPad is more closer to a computer than to a smartphone.
The hype of "smartphones taking over computers" is far from truth and relieves only the blogosphere people in search of self-medication.
It's an expensive phone. In Europe the phone starts at $825 including 23% tax. $635 excluding tax.
I reckon if the phone started at €649 instead of €779 it'd be an awful lot more popular for new phone buyers here.
Gee 23% tax, in the US it more like 6% to 8%. No wonder the EU is in trouble you have to tax the hell out of people so they can pay for all the free services people coming to the EU want. Now you know why the UK decided to exit
Believe me. The UK is waking up to some harsh realities of Brexit and nothing real has actually happened yet. V.A.T is 20% (general) and will probably rise as a result of Brexit. Sales tax varies across the EU depending on the member state. Some items are subject to reduced tax or zero tax. Sales taxes are necessary but when they go over 20%, can be the difference between purchasing something or not (or choosing a lower priced item). If your currency is strong, the situation can be somewhat mitigated but if it is weak, you are in trouble (the buyer that just cannot afford the item, and the manufacturer that can't get the sale). All the manufacturer can do is reduce margins or release cheaper products. Pound Sterling has taken a battering because of Brexit. V.A.T is on the 20% point and Apple is not currently producing ANY new affordable machines. I fully expect Apple sales to implode in the UK and see significant falls in the rest of the EU. That in itself is cause for concern but the other cause for concern is lost market share. Apple will say that while it's products are sold at high margins, volume is not an issue. This is a crass error. A large part of the current user base are not 'Mac users'. They are 'users' who use Macs and or iDevices. There is a massive difference. They might be buying Apple products today but tomorrow they could just as easily be buying from competitors. If your market share starts to dive you will be in trouble quickly unless you have enough critical mass to keep things going. The fall in share price will be the first issue.
iPhone 8 might not be enough if they stick to ultra premium pricing.
"Apple is not currently producing ANY new affordable machines."
Not true, new iPads are on the way. The new 13" MBP with function keys is the most recent example of an affordable machine.
"Apple will say that while it's products are sold at high margins, volume is not an issue. This is a crass error."
Apple has never said anything like that. Volume is their prime concern and their biggest competitive power. They design, develop and produce for volume. If there is no volume, Apple is not into that product. This is why Apple does not produce for vertical markets. There is no volume in vertical markets.
Cheap junk doesn't mean volume.
"They might be buying Apple products today but tomorrow they could just as easily be buying from competitors."
This is true also for Apple's competitors but for Apple this is even less true. Compare the volume of "iOS switchers" vs "Android switchers" and you'll see the difference. Apple would never lose its customers as fast as its competitors because it doesn't produce smartphones that explode. And it would never lose customers because of pricing.
"If your market share starts to dive you will be in trouble quickly unless you have enough critical mass to keep things going."
Apple products have enough critical mass to keep things going, don't worry about that.
The new 13" MBP with function buttons starts at 1699€. Unaffordable for too many people. Add to that that you absolutely must configure it - and at time of purchase - with what you need for the entire life of the machine, and you understand why they will probably be poor sellers. Any future iPad doesn't count as we are talking new now, not the in the future. Of course 'now' is basically Christmas and not having one of your potential big Christmas sellers ready in time is a business failure. Ditto the iMac. From a business perspective, going into your best quarter and not having refreshed iMacs, iPad, Minis etc ready, is a disaster. Even more so when you have deemed all the ports on those old Macs (which you are selling as brand new) as 'old,' and replaced them with a 'new' port on the new MBPs. It's a marketing nightmare.
Apple has a Jeckll and Hyde approach to volume (in market share terms). Historically they have said it wasn't part of their focus and when they hit rough waters, a large part of the problem was not having enough users to feed from in the pool. Even Jobs said that market share wasn't an issue (for the Mac) only to turn around and state that with 5% marketshare they wanted to go after the other 95%. They even advertised the fact in the press. Apple is also an extras company (Apple Care, dongles, cases etc) All high margin products. Lower sales also push down the sales of those extras. Lost revenues and margins.
Movements over the last few years have been in the opposite direction. Protect margins with new more expensive machines. First the shift to retina and now the new MBPs. The halo effect was real but that new generation of users (who had no previous experience with Apple) is now largely up for renewal but possibly not buying into the platforms second time around. There have been plenty of real indicators but nobody really knows what is happening. Tim Cook generally mentions margins (in very generic terms) in earnings calls and clearly the big.money is there, especially on the high volume, premium priced iPhone but you can only justify those premium prices if your product really is much better than the rest. That hasn't been the case for a few years. Samsung has been pushing Apple to the wire in the public eye. The Note line was the first major threat to Apple: large screens. We all know that Apple admitted (indirectly) that it didn't have what its customers wanted. Number one on many people's list was a larger screen but Apple thought it knew better than it's customers. They definitely lost sales because of that. Now they think they know what's better for Mac users with the lock stock and barrel switch to USB-C on the new MBP. The negative response has been heard far and wide. It didn't take long for brands like Huawei to put better, faster implementations of the fingerprint sensor onto the market. Google finally took fragmentation of Android more seriously and from Android 6 there has been a noticeable shift in the amount of older phones elegible for upgrade.
My 'Apple will say ...' was not literal. It was a summary of the Apple way of thinking based on past comments and actions from the company. Right now there is nothing in the actions or the words of the company to make us believe they after pushing volume.
Apple is losing customers on pricing. I am one example of that and we would be foolish to tthink ootherwise. Here we return to affordable again. If you want a relatively large screen or it is a must have for you, you have to pony up an Apple premium price or move out of the Apple ecosystem. Apple just doesn't have the product spread at the low end or mid range to cater for those users. We are back to margins again. Apple is happy with this but surely losing customers. Yes, the same things happens to competitors but with a manot difference. While competitors can lose customers, they lose them to competitors feeding off the same Android pool. However, those same companies are also receiving from the pool and have the opportunity to absorb iOS switchers too. Apple's offering is logically smaller in the amount of options it can offer but the premium price is a barrier along with screen size etc.
I seriously doubt that Apple has enough critical mass to keep things going if there is a turn around in public opinion. With the launch of the iPhone people began switching in earnest to Apple. People bought products simply because they were Apple products, because they thought they were synonymous of quality. However, these new Apple purchasers do not have the brand loyalty that kept the company afloat in the past. Not long ago, Sony was the king of the hill in consumer electronics. Very much like Apple today. Look at how little it took for Sony to fall from grace.
There is a lot that is wrong at Apple right now. A lot of it is stale thinking but there is also too much 'we know best' and users must adapt to what we decide.
The opposite should be true. The customers should be playing a key role in deciding where the company is heading.
"Even Jobs said that market share wasn't an issue (for the Mac) only to turn around and state that with 5% marketshare they wanted to go after the other 95%. They even advertised the fact in the press"
Any source or reference for that?
"There is a lot that is wrong at Apple right now. A lot of it is stale thinking but there is also too much 'we know best' and users must adapt to what we decide.
The opposite should be true. The customers should be playing a key role in deciding where the company is heading."
Yeah. Apple must openly discuss incoming products prior to design, even auction the ports, display resolution, CPU speed, GPU specs and only include the ones that would receive the most bid from the public in the park.
You know what? Adding more and more judgements without any supportive reasoning, argument or fact doesn't help. Because everyone already knows here that you are unfalsifiable. Expose your metaphysics here as long as you want, continue to overuse this forum as your personal blog. No one cares...
The new 13" MBP with function buttons starts at 1699€. Unaffordable for too many people. Add to that that you absolutely must configure it - and at time of purchase - with what you need for the entire life of the machine, and you understand why they will probably be poor sellers. Any future iPad doesn't count as we are talking new now, not the in the future. Of course 'now' is basically Christmas and not having one of your potential big Christmas sellers ready in time is a business failure. Ditto the iMac. From a business perspective, going into your best quarter and not having refreshed iMacs, iPad, Minis etc ready, is a disaster. Even more so when you have deemed all the ports on those old Macs (which you are selling as brand new) as 'old,' and replaced them with a 'new' port on the new MBPs. It's a marketing nightmare.
Apple has a Jeckll and Hyde approach to volume (in market share terms). Historically they have said it wasn't part of their focus and when they hit rough waters, a large part of the problem was not having enough users to feed from in the pool. Even Jobs said that market share wasn't an issue (for the Mac) only to turn around and state that with 5% marketshare they wanted to go after the other 95%. They even advertised the fact in the press. Apple is also an extras company (Apple Care, dongles, cases etc) All high margin products. Lower sales also push down the sales of those extras. Lost revenues and margins.
Movements over the last few years have been in the opposite direction. Protect margins with new more expensive machines. First the shift to retina and now the new MBPs. The halo effect was real but that new generation of users (who had no previous experience with Apple) is now largely up for renewal but possibly not buying into the platforms second time around. There have been plenty of real indicators but nobody really knows what is happening. Tim Cook generally mentions margins (in very generic terms) in earnings calls and clearly the big.money is there, especially on the high volume, premium priced iPhone but you can only justify those premium prices if your product really is much better than the rest. That hasn't been the case for a few years. Samsung has been pushing Apple to the wire in the public eye. The Note line was the first major threat to Apple: large screens. We all know that Apple admitted (indirectly) that it didn't have what its customers wanted. Number one on many people's list was a larger screen but Apple thought it knew better than it's customers. They definitely lost sales because of that. Now they think they know what's better for Mac users with the lock stock and barrel switch to USB-C on the new MBP. The negative response has been heard far and wide. It didn't take long for brands like Huawei to put better, faster implementations of the fingerprint sensor onto the market. Google finally took fragmentation of Android more seriously and from Android 6 there has been a noticeable shift in the amount of older phones elegible for upgrade.
My 'Apple will say ...' was not literal. It was a summary of the Apple way of thinking based on past comments and actions from the company. Right now there is nothing in the actions or the words of the company to make us believe they after pushing volume.
Apple is losing customers on pricing. I am one example of that and we would be foolish to tthink ootherwise. Here we return to affordable again. If you want a relatively large screen or it is a must have for you, you have to pony up an Apple premium price or move out of the Apple ecosystem. Apple just doesn't have the product spread at the low end or mid range to cater for those users. We are back to margins again. Apple is happy with this but surely losing customers. Yes, the same things happens to competitors but with a manot difference. While competitors can lose customers, they lose them to competitors feeding off the same Android pool. However, those same companies are also receiving from the pool and have the opportunity to absorb iOS switchers too. Apple's offering is logically smaller in the amount of options it can offer but the premium price is a barrier along with screen size etc.
I seriously doubt that Apple has enough critical mass to keep things going if there is a turn around in public opinion. With the launch of the iPhone people began switching in earnest to Apple. People bought products simply because they were Apple products, because they thought they were synonymous of quality. However, these new Apple purchasers do not have the brand loyalty that kept the company afloat in the past. Not long ago, Sony was the king of the hill in consumer electronics. Very much like Apple today. Look at how little it took for Sony to fall from grace.
There is a lot that is wrong at Apple right now. A lot of it is stale thinking but there is also too much 'we know best' and users must adapt to what we decide.
The opposite should be true. The customers should be playing a key role in deciding where the company is heading.
Blah blah blah.
1. Market share isn't their focus still. Market share only matters if you're not making money or if you're a commodity. Apple is making tons of money and its products aren't commodities.
2. Apple has been "losing" customers on pricing for years. No difference after the last refresh. Yet they still earn money.
3. Apple doesn't play on the low end market. It hasn't hurt them one bit. Why should they cater to every customer group? Apple is unlike any company. Its customers are loyal but not sheep.
4. Apple makes 90% of profits in the phone business. They don't need the low end. Let the other companies worry about the low end. Most of them are struggling. Market share doesn't pay the bills.
5. Doesn't have enough critical mass? What are you smoking? Many developers still develop for iOS first. Its main phone competitor has an exploding phone and recall!
6. A lot of wrong? Damn, Lots of companies would love to be as "wrong" as Apple is currently. Apple has a history of knowing what's best. Sure they're not 100% correct but they are generally more right than wrong.
7. If you listen to customers we would have faster horses, shitty flip phones, and vga, parallel ports, 5 1/4" floppy drives on our computers.
Thanks to former Apple loyalists like myself who broke their habit of upgrading iPhone every 2 years due to the mediocrity (and lack of imagination) of iPhone 7, Tim Cook, and Jony Ive. Yes, I'm afraid Apple is dying under Tim Cook.
Nice story. Apple's been "dying" since 1977.
mediocrity? According to whose metrics? iPhones get faster every year. They get better cameras (software and lenses). More features, etc.
According to one loyal customer to whom Apple just lost $5K in sales! iPhone 7 pass, MBP pass, AirPods pass, Watch pass. Multiply me by millions of professionals like me who believe Apple has lost its way. What's today's AI headline? What did Oppenheimer say? "Oppenheimer analysts have issued an unusually scathing Apple investor memo, charging that the company is headed in the wrong direction and poised for a "decade-long malaise" as a result." I, and millions of former Apple loyalists, have been calling out Tim Cook and Jony Ive on their shabby, underwhelming products, and mediocre performance, for years now. Isn't it time for all the apologist on AI to wake up from their slumber and admit they were wrong all along?
It's an expensive phone. In Europe the phone starts at $825 including 23% tax. $635 excluding tax.
I reckon if the phone started at €649 instead of €779 it'd be an awful lot more popular for new phone buyers here.
Gee 23% tax, in the US it more like 6% to 8%. No wonder the EU is in trouble you have to tax the hell out of people so they can pay for all the free services people coming to the EU want. Now you know why the UK decided to exit
Believe me. The UK is waking up to some harsh realities of Brexit and nothing real has actually happened yet. V.A.T is 20% (general) and will probably rise as a result of Brexit. Sales tax varies across the EU depending on the member state. Some items are subject to reduced tax or zero tax. Sales taxes are necessary but when they go over 20%, can be the difference between purchasing something or not (or choosing a lower priced item). If your currency is strong, the situation can be somewhat mitigated but if it is weak, you are in trouble (the buyer that just cannot afford the item, and the manufacturer that can't get the sale). All the manufacturer can do is reduce margins or release cheaper products. Pound Sterling has taken a battering because of Brexit. V.A.T is on the 20% point and Apple is not currently producing ANY new affordable machines. I fully expect Apple sales to implode in the UK and see significant falls in the rest of the EU. That in itself is cause for concern but the other cause for concern is lost market share. Apple will say that while it's products are sold at high margins, volume is not an issue. This is a crass error. A large part of the current user base are not 'Mac users'. They are 'users' who use Macs and or iDevices. There is a massive difference. They might be buying Apple products today but tomorrow they could just as easily be buying from competitors. If your market share starts to dive you will be in trouble quickly unless you have enough critical mass to keep things going. The fall in share price will be the first issue.
iPhone 8 might not be enough if they stick to ultra premium pricing.
"Apple is not currently producing ANY new affordable machines."
Not true, new iPads are on the way. The new 13" MBP with function keys is the most recent example of an affordable machine.
"Apple will say that while it's products are sold at high margins, volume is not an issue. This is a crass error."
Apple has never said anything like that. Volume is their prime concern and their biggest competitive power. They design, develop and produce for volume. If there is no volume, Apple is not into that product. This is why Apple does not produce for vertical markets. There is no volume in vertical markets.
Cheap junk doesn't mean volume.
"They might be buying Apple products today but tomorrow they could just as easily be buying from competitors."
This is true also for Apple's competitors but for Apple this is even less true. Compare the volume of "iOS switchers" vs "Android switchers" and you'll see the difference. Apple would never lose its customers as fast as its competitors because it doesn't produce smartphones that explode. And it would never lose customers because of pricing.
"If your market share starts to dive you will be in trouble quickly unless you have enough critical mass to keep things going."
Apple products have enough critical mass to keep things going, don't worry about that.
The new 13" MBP with function buttons starts at 1699€. Unaffordable for too many people. Add to that that you absolutely must configure it - and at time of purchase - with what you need for the entire life of the machine, and you understand why they will probably be poor sellers. Any future iPad doesn't count as we are talking new now, not the in the future. Of course 'now' is basically Christmas and not having one of your potential big Christmas sellers ready in time is a business failure. Ditto the iMac. From a business perspective, going into your best quarter and not having refreshed iMacs, iPad, Minis etc ready, is a disaster. Even more so when you have deemed all the ports on those old Macs (which you are selling as brand new) as 'old,' and replaced them with a 'new' port on the new MBPs. It's a marketing nightmare.
Apple has a Jeckll and Hyde approach to volume (in market share terms). Historically they have said it wasn't part of their focus and when they hit rough waters, a large part of the problem was not having enough users to feed from in the pool. Even Jobs said that market share wasn't an issue (for the Mac) only to turn around and state that with 5% marketshare they wanted to go after the other 95%. They even advertised the fact in the press. Apple is also an extras company (Apple Care, dongles, cases etc) All high margin products. Lower sales also push down the sales of those extras. Lost revenues and margins.
Movements over the last few years have been in the opposite direction. Protect margins with new more expensive machines. First the shift to retina and now the new MBPs. The halo effect was real but that new generation of users (who had no previous experience with Apple) is now largely up for renewal but possibly not buying into the platforms second time around. There have been plenty of real indicators but nobody really knows what is happening. Tim Cook generally mentions margins (in very generic terms) in earnings calls and clearly the big.money is there, especially on the high volume, premium priced iPhone but you can only justify those premium prices if your product really is much better than the rest. That hasn't been the case for a few years. Samsung has been pushing Apple to the wire in the public eye. The Note line was the first major threat to Apple: large screens. We all know that Apple admitted (indirectly) that it didn't have what its customers wanted. Number one on many people's list was a larger screen but Apple thought it knew better than it's customers. They definitely lost sales because of that. Now they think they know what's better for Mac users with the lock stock and barrel switch to USB-C on the new MBP. The negative response has been heard far and wide. It didn't take long for brands like Huawei to put better, faster implementations of the fingerprint sensor onto the market. Google finally took fragmentation of Android more seriously and from Android 6 there has been a noticeable shift in the amount of older phones elegible for upgrade.
My 'Apple will say ...' was not literal. It was a summary of the Apple way of thinking based on past comments and actions from the company. Right now there is nothing in the actions or the words of the company to make us believe they after pushing volume.
Apple is losing customers on pricing. I am one example of that and we would be foolish to tthink ootherwise. Here we return to affordable again. If you want a relatively large screen or it is a must have for you, you have to pony up an Apple premium price or move out of the Apple ecosystem. Apple just doesn't have the product spread at the low end or mid range to cater for those users. We are back to margins again. Apple is happy with this but surely losing customers. Yes, the same things happens to competitors but with a manot difference. While competitors can lose customers, they lose them to competitors feeding off the same Android pool. However, those same companies are also receiving from the pool and have the opportunity to absorb iOS switchers too. Apple's offering is logically smaller in the amount of options it can offer but the premium price is a barrier along with screen size etc.
I seriously doubt that Apple has enough critical mass to keep things going if there is a turn around in public opinion. With the launch of the iPhone people began switching in earnest to Apple. People bought products simply because they were Apple products, because they thought they were synonymous of quality. However, these new Apple purchasers do not have the brand loyalty that kept the company afloat in the past. Not long ago, Sony was the king of the hill in consumer electronics. Very much like Apple today. Look at how little it took for Sony to fall from grace.
There is a lot that is wrong at Apple right now. A lot of it is stale thinking but there is also too much 'we know best' and users must adapt to what we decide.
The opposite should be true. The customers should be playing a key role in deciding where the company is heading.
I think the reason Apple extended the iPhone 6 design into the 7 model is because the new design which will be introduced as the 8 was not ready yet. Which makes most people are predicting that 8 will be a radical change in design, materials and some new tricks. I tend to hold onto my iPhones for 3 years so I don't really care but I am puzzled by people that upgrade every year for what recently has been minor changes (3D touch) and camera improvements. I see no reason for it but then again I live debt free, pay my cc bill in full each month and don't shop because I am bored.
I told am holding a 3 year old phone the 6+
I see ZERO reason to buy the 6s or the 6ss.
Ok. All you ever f@$king do is complain. Like if something from Digitimes can be totally trusted. I'm sure someone like you would want a completely new device every year. See how that is working out for Samsung. Let's see what the 8 looks like before we count Tim out. Same crap every year Apple is doom.
Actually I believe he posts depending on either his position in the stock or if he has run out of his meds or not. One day it's rainbows and butterflies, the next day it's chicken little.
The new 13" MBP with function buttons starts at 1699€. Unaffordable for too many people. Add to that that you absolutely must configure it - and at time of purchase - with what you need for the entire life of the machine, and you understand why they will probably be poor sellers. Any future iPad doesn't count as we are talking new now, not the in the future. Of course 'now' is basically Christmas and not having one of your potential big Christmas sellers ready in time is a business failure. Ditto the iMac. From a business perspective, going into your best quarter and not having refreshed iMacs, iPad, Minis etc ready, is a disaster. Even more so when you have deemed all the ports on those old Macs (which you are selling as brand new) as 'old,' and replaced them with a 'new' port on the new MBPs. It's a marketing nightmare.
Apple has a Jeckll and Hyde approach to volume (in market share terms). Historically they have said it wasn't part of their focus and when they hit rough waters, a large part of the problem was not having enough users to feed from in the pool. Even Jobs said that market share wasn't an issue (for the Mac) only to turn around and state that with 5% marketshare they wanted to go after the other 95%. They even advertised the fact in the press. Apple is also an extras company (Apple Care, dongles, cases etc) All high margin products. Lower sales also push down the sales of those extras. Lost revenues and margins.
Movements over the last few years have been in the opposite direction. Protect margins with new more expensive machines. First the shift to retina and now the new MBPs. The halo effect was real but that new generation of users (who had no previous experience with Apple) is now largely up for renewal but possibly not buying into the platforms second time around. There have been plenty of real indicators but nobody really knows what is happening. Tim Cook generally mentions margins (in very generic terms) in earnings calls and clearly the big.money is there, especially on the high volume, premium priced iPhone but you can only justify those premium prices if your product really is much better than the rest. That hasn't been the case for a few years. Samsung has been pushing Apple to the wire in the public eye. The Note line was the first major threat to Apple: large screens. We all know that Apple admitted (indirectly) that it didn't have what its customers wanted. Number one on many people's list was a larger screen but Apple thought it knew better than it's customers. They definitely lost sales because of that. Now they think they know what's better for Mac users with the lock stock and barrel switch to USB-C on the new MBP. The negative response has been heard far and wide. It didn't take long for brands like Huawei to put better, faster implementations of the fingerprint sensor onto the market. Google finally took fragmentation of Android more seriously and from Android 6 there has been a noticeable shift in the amount of older phones elegible for upgrade.
My 'Apple will say ...' was not literal. It was a summary of the Apple way of thinking based on past comments and actions from the company. Right now there is nothing in the actions or the words of the company to make us believe they after pushing volume.
Apple is losing customers on pricing. I am one example of that and we would be foolish to tthink ootherwise. Here we return to affordable again. If you want a relatively large screen or it is a must have for you, you have to pony up an Apple premium price or move out of the Apple ecosystem. Apple just doesn't have the product spread at the low end or mid range to cater for those users. We are back to margins again. Apple is happy with this but surely losing customers. Yes, the same things happens to competitors but with a manot difference. While competitors can lose customers, they lose them to competitors feeding off the same Android pool. However, those same companies are also receiving from the pool and have the opportunity to absorb iOS switchers too. Apple's offering is logically smaller in the amount of options it can offer but the premium price is a barrier along with screen size etc.
I seriously doubt that Apple has enough critical mass to keep things going if there is a turn around in public opinion. With the launch of the iPhone people began switching in earnest to Apple. People bought products simply because they were Apple products, because they thought they were synonymous of quality. However, these new Apple purchasers do not have the brand loyalty that kept the company afloat in the past. Not long ago, Sony was the king of the hill in consumer electronics. Very much like Apple today. Look at how little it took for Sony to fall from grace.
There is a lot that is wrong at Apple right now. A lot of it is stale thinking but there is also too much 'we know best' and users must adapt to what we decide.
The opposite should be true. The customers should be playing a key role in deciding where the company is heading.
Blah blah blah.
1. Market share isn't their focus still. Market share only matters if you're not making money or if you're a commodity. Apple is making tons of money and its products aren't commodities.
2. Apple has been "losing" customers on pricing for years. No difference after the last refresh. Yet they still earn money.
3. Apple doesn't play on the low end market. It hasn't hurt them one bit. Why should they cater to every customer group? Apple is unlike any company. Its customers are loyal but not sheep.
4. Apple makes 90% of profits in the phone business. They don't need the low end. Let the other companies worry about the low end. Most of them are struggling. Market share doesn't pay the bills.
5. Doesn't have enough critical mass? What are you smoking? Many developers still develop for iOS first. Its main phone competitor has an exploding phone and recall!
6. A lot of wrong? Damn, Lots of companies would love to be as "wrong" as Apple is currently. Apple has a history of knowing what's best. Sure they're not 100% correct but they are generally more right than wrong.
7. If you listen to customers we would have faster horses, shitty flip phones, and vga, parallel ports, 5 1/4" floppy drives on our computers.
1. As I said, Apple isn't worried about market share - now. In the past it was. Market share (volume) is everything. You say that iOS developers write for iOS first. Do you think that the same will be true when volumes slip? The reason Apple doesn't have a range of phones at non premium pricing is because those phones will cannibalize its high end sales where it makes its profit and there you have a key piece of information. Apple knows that its phones are overpriced but as long as people buy them, they just don't care. They'd much rather bleed the high end and rake in the profits. A massive error. You need volume. Just ask Microsoft, Blackberry, Palm etc. The days of iPhones being alone at the top of the hill are long gone and they are already losing users to manufacturers with just as much clout (if not more) as them. They haven't helped themselves with the insistence on crippling phones by having no expandable memory and shipping the starters in the line with 16GB for far too long. I have never met an owner of one of those phones who hadn't complained about it. Not one. Many just switched to Android when the time to upgrade came or tried to upgrade to 32GB only to find that Apple didn't offer that option on second tier phones and instead wanted users to suffer with 16GB or jump to 64GB. Or jump into the ultra premium first tier. Pretty nasty whichever way you look at it from the customer's viewpoint but just fine from Apple's (even if they eventually moved the baseline up to 32GB). These are the marketing decisions that cost you users in the long term. They apply these tactics across the entire Mac line.
2. Already ccovered in point 1. Gain for today. Pain for tomorrow.
3. "Apple doesn't cater to ...". You probably remember the LCs, Performas, original iMac etc. That was the low end. Apple definitely was in that area and the fact that is only there now with 'old' machines is an example of how things have changed.
4. A very short sighted view. If the iPhone had never existed the Mac lines would possibly be at its healthiest level ever. It isn't performing as well as it could, probably due to resources being pumped into the iPhone business. Perhaps it's time for Apple to make its Mac business separate from the mobile division. The iPhone bubble may have burst already. The fact that it is currently the biggest earner by far for Apple takes nothing away from its other business areas.
5. I don't smoke. See my point one.
6. Short sighted again. It isn't what you have. It's what you could have. Apple is underperforming.
7. How wrong you are. A company that doesn't listen to what its customers want is dependent on guessing right. Large screen iPhones were the most recent example of Apple not listening to customers in time. Famously, Apple management had to be told 'we don't have what our customers want'
"Even Jobs said that market share wasn't an issue (for the Mac) only to turn around and state that with 5% marketshare they wanted to go after the other 95%. They even advertised the fact in the press"
Any source or reference for that?
"There is a lot that is wrong at Apple right now. A lot of it is stale thinking but there is also too much 'we know best' and users must adapt to what we decide.
The opposite should be true. The customers should be playing a key role in deciding where the company is heading."
Yeah. Apple must openly discuss incoming products prior to design, even auction the ports, display resolution, CPU speed, GPU specs and only include the ones that would receive the most bid from the public in the park.
You know what? Adding more and more judgements without any supportive reasoning, argument or fact doesn't help. Because everyone already knows here that you are unfalsifiable. Expose your metaphysics here as long as you want, continue to overuse this forum as your personal blog. No one cares...
I read the market share piece in an interview with Jobs and shortly after, advertisements began appearing in the press and IIRC, it was the mainstream press and not the tech press and possibly full page ads. I will try to get you a reference but this was a while back.
Where did you read that Apple must openly discuss incoming products prior to design and auction ports? Can you give me a reference for that?
I have reasoned pretty much everything I have written. That said, I don't profess to have the absolute truth on where the market will go. I made it clear that the new MBPs are a mistake on many levels and the only way to seek change is by not buying the product until at least the biggest impediment (price) comes down to make the other compromises worth it. That might not happen at all but if these new models are flying off the shelves in unprecedented numbers, the critics will have to accept it and abandon the Mac. I'm in that group and I think it's pretty big.
We have have not heard Schilller beating the drum on sales since the first week of sales and even then he chose his words very carefully. The new MBPs were discounted over Black Friday too. These Macs got the 'Hello Again' treatment. They are supposedly revolutionary but people just criticised them - and in unheard of numbers. Availability might say some models will take weeks for delivery but there are many reasons that could justify that and which are not sales related. I have insisted that the next earnings call will be worth listening too. We just have to wait.
"Even Jobs said that market share wasn't an issue (for the Mac) only to turn around and state that with 5% marketshare they wanted to go after the other 95%. They even advertised the fact in the press"
Any source or reference for that?
"There is a lot that is wrong at Apple right now. A lot of it is stale thinking but there is also too much 'we know best' and users must adapt to what we decide.
The opposite should be true. The customers should be playing a key role in deciding where the company is heading."
Yeah. Apple must openly discuss incoming products prior to design, even auction the ports, display resolution, CPU speed, GPU specs and only include the ones that would receive the most bid from the public in the park.
You know what? Adding more and more judgements without any supportive reasoning, argument or fact doesn't help. Because everyone already knows here that you are unfalsifiable. Expose your metaphysics here as long as you want, continue to overuse this forum as your personal blog. No one cares...
I read the market share piece in an interview with Jobs and shortly after, advertisements began appearing in the press and IIRC, it was the mainstream press and not the tech press and possibly full page ads. I will try to get you a reference but this was a while back.
Where did you read that Apple must openly discuss incoming products prior to design and auction ports? Can you give me a reference for that?
I have reasoned pretty much everything I have written. That said, I don't profess to have the absolute truth on where the market will go. I made it clear that the new MBPs are a mistake on many levels and the only way to seek change is by not buying the product until at least the biggest impediment (price) comes down to make the other compromises worth it. That might not happen at all but if these new models are flying off the shelves in unprecedented numbers, the critics will have to accept it and abandon the Mac. I'm in that group and I think it's pretty big.
We have have not heard Schilller beating the drum on sales since the first week of sales and even then he chose his words very carefully. The new MBPs were discounted over Black Friday too. These Macs got the 'Hello Again' treatment. They are supposedly revolutionary but people just criticised them - and in unheard of numbers. Availability might say some models will take weeks for delivery but there are many reasons that could justify that and which are not sales related. I have insisted that the next earnings call will be worth listening too. We just have to wait.
"business failure", "disaster", "nightmare"... These are everything but reasoning but I'll keep it simple, just a self-injected doping to sustain your cheap psychodrama... That advertising on incoming stores you tweaked to humiliate Steve Jobs doesn't make it "reasoning" either.
"Even Jobs said that market share wasn't an issue (for the Mac) only to turn around and state that with 5% marketshare they wanted to go after the other 95%. They even advertised the fact in the press"
Any source or reference for that?
"There is a lot that is wrong at Apple right now. A lot of it is stale thinking but there is also too much 'we know best' and users must adapt to what we decide.
The opposite should be true. The customers should be playing a key role in deciding where the company is heading."
Yeah. Apple must openly discuss incoming products prior to design, even auction the ports, display resolution, CPU speed, GPU specs and only include the ones that would receive the most bid from the public in the park.
You know what? Adding more and more judgements without any supportive reasoning, argument or fact doesn't help. Because everyone already knows here that you are unfalsifiable. Expose your metaphysics here as long as you want, continue to overuse this forum as your personal blog. No one cares...
I read the market share piece in an interview with Jobs and shortly after, advertisements began appearing in the press and IIRC, it was the mainstream press and not the tech press and possibly full page ads. I will try to get you a reference but this was a while back.
Where did you read that Apple must openly discuss incoming products prior to design and auction ports? Can you give me a reference for that?
I have reasoned pretty much everything I have written. That said, I don't profess to have the absolute truth on where the market will go. I made it clear that the new MBPs are a mistake on many levels and the only way to seek change is by not buying the product until at least the biggest impediment (price) comes down to make the other compromises worth it. That might not happen at all but if these new models are flying off the shelves in unprecedented numbers, the critics will have to accept it and abandon the Mac. I'm in that group and I think it's pretty big.
We have have not heard Schilller beating the drum on sales since the first week of sales and even then he chose his words very carefully. The new MBPs were discounted over Black Friday too. These Macs got the 'Hello Again' treatment. They are supposedly revolutionary but people just criticised them - and in unheard of numbers. Availability might say some models will take weeks for delivery but there are many reasons that could justify that and which are not sales related. I have insisted that the next earnings call will be worth listening too. We just have to wait.
"business failure", "disaster", "nightmare"... These are everything but reasoning but I'll keep it simple, just a self-injected doping to sustain your cheap psychodrama... That advertising on incoming stores you tweaked to humiliate Steve Jobs doesn't make it "reasoning" either.
"business failure", "disaster", "nightmare".
"Reasoning" ?
No. That is 'opinion'. Are you really unable to distinguish? However, my opinion is reasoned and supported by facts where relevant. You just choose to pluck words out of posts where they get stripped of context and then try to put words into the OPs comments: "... Apple must openly discuss incoming products prior to design". That is not constructive debate. It is a pathetic attempt at manipulation and quite common in some posters here
"That advertising on incoming stores you tweaked to humiliate Steve Jobs doesn't make it "reasoning" either"
Well, in fact it does. My point was that historically Apple has demonstrated that volume in terms of marketshare is important but now, under TC, that had changed.
I told you that those words were spoken by Apple and Steve Jobs himself and your only conclusion was that I was attempting to humiliate him?
No.
I gave my opinion, I reasoned it. I provided sufficient support for that reasoning, to the point of searching for a solid reference for you to chew on and, as is also common among some posters here, your only recourse was:
"just a self-injected doping to sustain your cheap psychodrama... "
Yeah. It is your opinion, but it isn't based on any fact.
I will resist the temptation to turn your own phrase on you.
"Even Jobs said that market share wasn't an issue (for the Mac) only to turn around and state that with 5% marketshare they wanted to go after the other 95%. They even advertised the fact in the press"
Any source or reference for that?
"There is a lot that is wrong at Apple right now. A lot of it is stale thinking but there is also too much 'we know best' and users must adapt to what we decide.
The opposite should be true. The customers should be playing a key role in deciding where the company is heading."
Yeah. Apple must openly discuss incoming products prior to design, even auction the ports, display resolution, CPU speed, GPU specs and only include the ones that would receive the most bid from the public in the park.
You know what? Adding more and more judgements without any supportive reasoning, argument or fact doesn't help. Because everyone already knows here that you are unfalsifiable. Expose your metaphysics here as long as you want, continue to overuse this forum as your personal blog. No one cares...
I read the market share piece in an interview with Jobs and shortly after, advertisements began appearing in the press and IIRC, it was the mainstream press and not the tech press and possibly full page ads. I will try to get you a reference but this was a while back.
Where did you read that Apple must openly discuss incoming products prior to design and auction ports? Can you give me a reference for that?
I have reasoned pretty much everything I have written. That said, I don't profess to have the absolute truth on where the market will go. I made it clear that the new MBPs are a mistake on many levels and the only way to seek change is by not buying the product until at least the biggest impediment (price) comes down to make the other compromises worth it. That might not happen at all but if these new models are flying off the shelves in unprecedented numbers, the critics will have to accept it and abandon the Mac. I'm in that group and I think it's pretty big.
We have have not heard Schilller beating the drum on sales since the first week of sales and even then he chose his words very carefully. The new MBPs were discounted over Black Friday too. These Macs got the 'Hello Again' treatment. They are supposedly revolutionary but people just criticised them - and in unheard of numbers. Availability might say some models will take weeks for delivery but there are many reasons that could justify that and which are not sales related. I have insisted that the next earnings call will be worth listening too. We just have to wait.
"business failure", "disaster", "nightmare"... These are everything but reasoning but I'll keep it simple, just a self-injected doping to sustain your cheap psychodrama... That advertising on incoming stores you tweaked to humiliate Steve Jobs doesn't make it "reasoning" either.
"business failure", "disaster", "nightmare".
"Reasoning" ?
No. That is 'opinion'. Are you really unable to distinguish? However, my opinion is reasoned and supported by facts where relevant. You just choose to pluck words out of posts where they get stripped of context and then try to put words into the OPs comments: "... Apple must openly discuss incoming products prior to design". That is not constructive debate. It is a pathetic attempt at manipulation and quite common in some posters here
"That advertising on incoming stores you tweaked to humiliate Steve Jobs doesn't make it "reasoning" either"
Well, in fact it does. My point was that historically Apple has demonstrated that volume in terms of marketshare is important but now, under TC, that had changed.
I told you that those words were spoken by Apple and Steve Jobs himself and your only conclusion was that I was attempting to humiliate him?
No.
I gave my opinion, I reasoned it. I provided sufficient support for that reasoning, to the point of searching for a solid reference for you to chew on and, as is also common among some posters here, your only recourse was:
"just a self-injected doping to sustain your cheap psychodrama... "
Yeah. It is your opinion, but it isn't based on any fact.
I will resist the temptation to turn your own phrase on you.
Those are your words: "Even Jobs said that market share wasn't an issue (for the Mac) only to turn around and state that with 5% marketshare they wanted to go after the other 95%"
To be factual you must supply evidence on these two things unless your intention is to humiliate Steve Jobs: 1) How and when Steve Jobs said first that market share wasn't an issue (for the Mac) only 2) How and when he then "turned around" to state that with 5% marketshare they wanted to go after the other 95%.
You may criticise Apple's policies but that is not enough for you. You have to introduce Steve Jobs to emphasize your... what? From that point it is up to you to prove your good faith, you exhausted all your credits in that.
"Even Jobs said that market share wasn't an issue (for the Mac) only to turn around and state that with 5% marketshare they wanted to go after the other 95%. They even advertised the fact in the press"
Any source or reference for that?
"There is a lot that is wrong at Apple right now. A lot of it is stale thinking but there is also too much 'we know best' and users must adapt to what we decide.
The opposite should be true. The customers should be playing a key role in deciding where the company is heading."
Yeah. Apple must openly discuss incoming products prior to design, even auction the ports, display resolution, CPU speed, GPU specs and only include the ones that would receive the most bid from the public in the park.
You know what? Adding more and more judgements without any supportive reasoning, argument or fact doesn't help. Because everyone already knows here that you are unfalsifiable. Expose your metaphysics here as long as you want, continue to overuse this forum as your personal blog. No one cares...
I read the market share piece in an interview with Jobs and shortly after, advertisements began appearing in the press and IIRC, it was the mainstream press and not the tech press and possibly full page ads. I will try to get you a reference but this was a while back.
Where did you read that Apple must openly discuss incoming products prior to design and auction ports? Can you give me a reference for that?
I have reasoned pretty much everything I have written. That said, I don't profess to have the absolute truth on where the market will go. I made it clear that the new MBPs are a mistake on many levels and the only way to seek change is by not buying the product until at least the biggest impediment (price) comes down to make the other compromises worth it. That might not happen at all but if these new models are flying off the shelves in unprecedented numbers, the critics will have to accept it and abandon the Mac. I'm in that group and I think it's pretty big.
We have have not heard Schilller beating the drum on sales since the first week of sales and even then he chose his words very carefully. The new MBPs were discounted over Black Friday too. These Macs got the 'Hello Again' treatment. They are supposedly revolutionary but people just criticised them - and in unheard of numbers. Availability might say some models will take weeks for delivery but there are many reasons that could justify that and which are not sales related. I have insisted that the next earnings call will be worth listening too. We just have to wait.
"business failure", "disaster", "nightmare"... These are everything but reasoning but I'll keep it simple, just a self-injected doping to sustain your cheap psychodrama... That advertising on incoming stores you tweaked to humiliate Steve Jobs doesn't make it "reasoning" either.
"business failure", "disaster", "nightmare".
"Reasoning" ?
No. That is 'opinion'. Are you really unable to distinguish? However, my opinion is reasoned and supported by facts where relevant. You just choose to pluck words out of posts where they get stripped of context and then try to put words into the OPs comments: "... Apple must openly discuss incoming products prior to design". That is not constructive debate. It is a pathetic attempt at manipulation and quite common in some posters here
"That advertising on incoming stores you tweaked to humiliate Steve Jobs doesn't make it "reasoning" either"
Well, in fact it does. My point was that historically Apple has demonstrated that volume in terms of marketshare is important but now, under TC, that had changed.
I told you that those words were spoken by Apple and Steve Jobs himself and your only conclusion was that I was attempting to humiliate him?
No.
I gave my opinion, I reasoned it. I provided sufficient support for that reasoning, to the point of searching for a solid reference for you to chew on and, as is also common among some posters here, your only recourse was:
"just a self-injected doping to sustain your cheap psychodrama... "
Yeah. It is your opinion, but it isn't based on any fact.
I will resist the temptation to turn your own phrase on you.
Those are your words: "Even Jobs said that market share wasn't an issue (for the Mac) only to turn around and state that with 5% marketshare they wanted to go after the other 95%"
To be factual you must supply evidence on these two things unless your intention is to humiliate Steve Jobs: 1) How and when Steve Jobs said first that market share wasn't an issue (for the Mac) only 2) How and when he then "turned around" to state that with 5% marketshare they wanted to go after the other 95%.
You may criticise Apple's policies but that is not enough for you. You have to introduce Steve Jobs to emphasize your... what? From that point it is up to you to prove your good faith, you exhausted all your credits in that.
Please take a step back and read what you are saying. It is absurd in the extreme.
"Even Jobs said that market share wasn't an issue (for the Mac) only to turn around and state that with 5% marketshare they wanted to go after the other 95%. They even advertised the fact in the press"
Any source or reference for that?
"There is a lot that is wrong at Apple right now. A lot of it is stale thinking but there is also too much 'we know best' and users must adapt to what we decide.
The opposite should be true. The customers should be playing a key role in deciding where the company is heading."
Yeah. Apple must openly discuss incoming products prior to design, even auction the ports, display resolution, CPU speed, GPU specs and only include the ones that would receive the most bid from the public in the park.
You know what? Adding more and more judgements without any supportive reasoning, argument or fact doesn't help. Because everyone already knows here that you are unfalsifiable. Expose your metaphysics here as long as you want, continue to overuse this forum as your personal blog. No one cares...
I read the market share piece in an interview with Jobs and shortly after, advertisements began appearing in the press and IIRC, it was the mainstream press and not the tech press and possibly full page ads. I will try to get you a reference but this was a while back.
Where did you read that Apple must openly discuss incoming products prior to design and auction ports? Can you give me a reference for that?
I have reasoned pretty much everything I have written. That said, I don't profess to have the absolute truth on where the market will go. I made it clear that the new MBPs are a mistake on many levels and the only way to seek change is by not buying the product until at least the biggest impediment (price) comes down to make the other compromises worth it. That might not happen at all but if these new models are flying off the shelves in unprecedented numbers, the critics will have to accept it and abandon the Mac. I'm in that group and I think it's pretty big.
We have have not heard Schilller beating the drum on sales since the first week of sales and even then he chose his words very carefully. The new MBPs were discounted over Black Friday too. These Macs got the 'Hello Again' treatment. They are supposedly revolutionary but people just criticised them - and in unheard of numbers. Availability might say some models will take weeks for delivery but there are many reasons that could justify that and which are not sales related. I have insisted that the next earnings call will be worth listening too. We just have to wait.
"business failure", "disaster", "nightmare"... These are everything but reasoning but I'll keep it simple, just a self-injected doping to sustain your cheap psychodrama... That advertising on incoming stores you tweaked to humiliate Steve Jobs doesn't make it "reasoning" either.
"business failure", "disaster", "nightmare".
"Reasoning" ?
No. That is 'opinion'. Are you really unable to distinguish? However, my opinion is reasoned and supported by facts where relevant. You just choose to pluck words out of posts where they get stripped of context and then try to put words into the OPs comments: "... Apple must openly discuss incoming products prior to design". That is not constructive debate. It is a pathetic attempt at manipulation and quite common in some posters here
"That advertising on incoming stores you tweaked to humiliate Steve Jobs doesn't make it "reasoning" either"
Well, in fact it does. My point was that historically Apple has demonstrated that volume in terms of marketshare is important but now, under TC, that had changed.
I told you that those words were spoken by Apple and Steve Jobs himself and your only conclusion was that I was attempting to humiliate him?
No.
I gave my opinion, I reasoned it. I provided sufficient support for that reasoning, to the point of searching for a solid reference for you to chew on and, as is also common among some posters here, your only recourse was:
"just a self-injected doping to sustain your cheap psychodrama... "
Yeah. It is your opinion, but it isn't based on any fact.
I will resist the temptation to turn your own phrase on you.
Those are your words: "Even Jobs said that market share wasn't an issue (for the Mac) only to turn around and state that with 5% marketshare they wanted to go after the other 95%"
To be factual you must supply evidence on these two things unless your intention is to humiliate Steve Jobs: 1) How and when Steve Jobs said first that market share wasn't an issue (for the Mac) only 2) How and when he then "turned around" to state that with 5% marketshare they wanted to go after the other 95%.
You may criticise Apple's policies but that is not enough for you. You have to introduce Steve Jobs to emphasize your... what? From that point it is up to you to prove your good faith, you exhausted all your credits in that.
Please take a step back and read what you are saying. It is absurd in the extreme.
I hope you can see that for yourself.
None of your idiotic opinions are even vaguely supported by any facts and the only "reasoning" you provide is circular. Apple is always wrong whether it changes to meet customer demand with a larger screen size or if it goes it's own route.
Anyone as disappointed in any company as you are with Apple should short the stock and buy competing products that better fit your needs from a company more responsive to your desires.
"Even Jobs said that market share wasn't an issue (for the Mac) only to turn around and state that with 5% marketshare they wanted to go after the other 95%. They even advertised the fact in the press"
Any source or reference for that?
"There is a lot that is wrong at Apple right now. A lot of it is stale thinking but there is also too much 'we know best' and users must adapt to what we decide.
The opposite should be true. The customers should be playing a key role in deciding where the company is heading."
Yeah. Apple must openly discuss incoming products prior to design, even auction the ports, display resolution, CPU speed, GPU specs and only include the ones that would receive the most bid from the public in the park.
You know what? Adding more and more judgements without any supportive reasoning, argument or fact doesn't help. Because everyone already knows here that you are unfalsifiable. Expose your metaphysics here as long as you want, continue to overuse this forum as your personal blog. No one cares...
I read the market share piece in an interview with Jobs and shortly after, advertisements began appearing in the press and IIRC, it was the mainstream press and not the tech press and possibly full page ads. I will try to get you a reference but this was a while back.
Where did you read that Apple must openly discuss incoming products prior to design and auction ports? Can you give me a reference for that?
I have reasoned pretty much everything I have written. That said, I don't profess to have the absolute truth on where the market will go. I made it clear that the new MBPs are a mistake on many levels and the only way to seek change is by not buying the product until at least the biggest impediment (price) comes down to make the other compromises worth it. That might not happen at all but if these new models are flying off the shelves in unprecedented numbers, the critics will have to accept it and abandon the Mac. I'm in that group and I think it's pretty big.
We have have not heard Schilller beating the drum on sales since the first week of sales and even then he chose his words very carefully. The new MBPs were discounted over Black Friday too. These Macs got the 'Hello Again' treatment. They are supposedly revolutionary but people just criticised them - and in unheard of numbers. Availability might say some models will take weeks for delivery but there are many reasons that could justify that and which are not sales related. I have insisted that the next earnings call will be worth listening too. We just have to wait.
"business failure", "disaster", "nightmare"... These are everything but reasoning but I'll keep it simple, just a self-injected doping to sustain your cheap psychodrama... That advertising on incoming stores you tweaked to humiliate Steve Jobs doesn't make it "reasoning" either.
"business failure", "disaster", "nightmare".
"Reasoning" ?
No. That is 'opinion'. Are you really unable to distinguish? However, my opinion is reasoned and supported by facts where relevant. You just choose to pluck words out of posts where they get stripped of context and then try to put words into the OPs comments: "... Apple must openly discuss incoming products prior to design". That is not constructive debate. It is a pathetic attempt at manipulation and quite common in some posters here
"That advertising on incoming stores you tweaked to humiliate Steve Jobs doesn't make it "reasoning" either"
Well, in fact it does. My point was that historically Apple has demonstrated that volume in terms of marketshare is important but now, under TC, that had changed.
I told you that those words were spoken by Apple and Steve Jobs himself and your only conclusion was that I was attempting to humiliate him?
No.
I gave my opinion, I reasoned it. I provided sufficient support for that reasoning, to the point of searching for a solid reference for you to chew on and, as is also common among some posters here, your only recourse was:
"just a self-injected doping to sustain your cheap psychodrama... "
Yeah. It is your opinion, but it isn't based on any fact.
I will resist the temptation to turn your own phrase on you.
Those are your words: "Even Jobs said that market share wasn't an issue (for the Mac) only to turn around and state that with 5% marketshare they wanted to go after the other 95%"
To be factual you must supply evidence on these two things unless your intention is to humiliate Steve Jobs: 1) How and when Steve Jobs said first that market share wasn't an issue (for the Mac) only 2) How and when he then "turned around" to state that with 5% marketshare they wanted to go after the other 95%.
You may criticise Apple's policies but that is not enough for you. You have to introduce Steve Jobs to emphasize your... what? From that point it is up to you to prove your good faith, you exhausted all your credits in that.
Please take a step back and read what you are saying. It is absurd in the extreme.
I hope you can see that for yourself.
None of your idiotic opinions are even vaguely supported by any facts and the only "reasoning" you provide is circular. Apple is always wrong whether it changes to meet customer demand with a larger screen size or if it goes it's own route.
Anyone as disappointed in any company as you are with Apple should short the stock and buy competing products that better fit your needs from a company more responsive to your desires.
I thought you were going to put me on your ignore list. If that is your plan just do it.
I have supported everything I need to with facts. I have supported my opinions with reasoning.
Why do people like you always try to put words in others people's mouths?
'Apple is always wrong...'
Please don't answer that. I know the answer.
I have never said Apple is always wrong.
The large screen iPhone was a perfect example of Apple getting it wrong and thinking it knew better than the customer.
The fact they eventually changed to meet customer demand is irrelevant in this case. The point was that they thought they knew better than the customer.
Instead of just admitting that I am right on screen size, that those are the facts and that Apple was wrong, you choose to 'defend' them with a ' [they] change to meet customer demand.'
THAT IS NOT THE POINT.
The point is they often think they know what the customer wants - to the detriment of the customer. It seems you cannot bring yourself to admit that.
Why would people want to buy a phone with a 3 year old design? I mean seriously. If someone holds their phone for 2 year, this phone will have a 5 year old design at the end of their ownership cycle.
To release the same phone design THREE YEARS IN A ROW is the height of Apple's arrogance. But that's Tim Cook's Apple for you. The amount of mistakes this idiot CEO has made is ridiculous.
I hope this iPhone 6SS sells like crap. Hope the stock tanks hard by early 2017. And the board/shareholders wake up and fire Tim Cook. With a competent CEO who actually cares about growing the business and brand (instead of going on some dumb ass social crusade) this stock would be at $200 by now.
This coming from the guy who think mining people's personal information and selling the information is better way to make money. I am still waiting for you to share with me all your email accounts and passwords and Bank account information so I can see if you really do not have anything to hide.
BTW have you looked around at the competitors in the last 3 or 4 years all their phones look the same, and perform worse than an Apple phone. Okay a few took out the SD card and put them back in so people thought they were getting something new. A few other are playing the specmanship game or check list buying game of the 90's to make people think they got a new better product. Grant I do not buy ever new phone that comes out I trend to get them replace every 3 to 4 yrs since the apple phones are tough as nails and just work for a long time. But apple does not kill the last product with the next release of software.
I dare you to name one product which the actually visual design have changed significantly enough every year that you can tell which module year it is with a quick look. Even cars which relay in trying to look different all the time only cycle every 5 yrs, all the other changes are color choose from year to year or some subtle trim change. No company is evolving their designs as fast a apple is, in 9 Yrs they gone through 3.5 design platform on the phone. Who in 10 yrs has done more then more than this. Keep in mind that all cell phone today pretty much look like an iphone, I think that is your real issue.
Samsung.
Compare the S5 to the S7. Huge difference between the 2 years.
I expect significant design changes every 2 years with iPhone. iPhone4 vs 5 vs 6. Big design changes. So big you can tell instantly the difference.
So Apple should have made the iPhone 6 butt ugly? ;-) H
This is what you called change, they went from a plastic back phone to a Metal back phone after copying the Iphone 5 and they camera hole went from square to round. Oh lets not forget, they moved the flash to form the bottom to the side. Lets not even talk about he curved screen since even the hard core Android user said it was a gimmick and was worthless as a feature.
I see your point you do not care what the change is as long as it looks different. So does you significant other expect you to look difference every couple years otherwise you are the same old boring person.
You did have not pointed out a good example of a product/company who is evolving their design every yr to two, and Samsung does not count since they just coping what apple did last. this means they Samsung is now on a 3 yr cycle as well, noting to copy this time.
Comments
It already has. PC sales stand at around 250 million units per year. Smartphones are just under 2 billion units a year. To me that's called taking over. Everyone, or at least everyone that can afford one, will need a smartphone. Not everyone will need a PC, Mac, or even iPad.
"So, Windows is the default and Mac is in question only if you NEED it. Is that it"
I used Mac because that's the topic of discussion. It can equally apply that the same situation will happen to Windows PCs.
"Apple produces for the mass market"
The mass market is smartphones. And in a distant second, iPads (I could say tablets but essentially the tablet market is an iPad market in terms of tablets that actually get used)
When you consider a family of four, then the smartphone will sell four times than the computer because a single computer may serve all four, but everyone will need her/his smartphone. That doesn't mean that the smartphone has taken over the computer. The computer is still there and still needed. But a computer is shareable while the smarphone is not shareable. Since the smartphone is tightly associated with a person, smartphone comes first in fulfilling personal needs. There was such a huge market and Apple saw it first.
But the mass market is both smartphones and computers. These are just different segments of the same mass market. Once an iPhone is sold to a person, the next target is to sell an iPad and eventually a Mac to that person. Apple has achieved this with the exploding iPad sales. Functionally the iPad is more closer to a computer than to a smartphone.
The hype of "smartphones taking over computers" is far from truth and relieves only the blogosphere people in search of self-medication.
Apple has a Jeckll and Hyde approach to volume (in market share terms). Historically they have said it wasn't part of their focus and when they hit rough waters, a large part of the problem was not having enough users to feed from in the pool. Even Jobs said that market share wasn't an issue (for the Mac) only to turn around and state that with 5% marketshare they wanted to go after the other 95%. They even advertised the fact in the press. Apple is also an extras company (Apple Care, dongles, cases etc) All high margin products. Lower sales also push down the sales of those extras. Lost revenues and margins.
Movements over the last few years have been in the opposite direction. Protect margins with new more expensive machines. First the shift to retina and now the new MBPs. The halo effect was real but that new generation of users (who had no previous experience with Apple) is now largely up for renewal but possibly not buying into the platforms second time around. There have been plenty of real indicators but nobody really knows what is happening. Tim Cook generally mentions margins (in very generic terms) in earnings calls and clearly the big.money is there, especially on the high volume, premium priced iPhone but you can only justify those premium prices if your product really is much better than the rest. That hasn't been the case for a few years. Samsung has been pushing Apple to the wire in the public eye. The Note line was the first major threat to Apple: large screens. We all know that Apple admitted (indirectly) that it didn't have what its customers wanted. Number one on many people's list was a larger screen but Apple thought it knew better than it's customers. They definitely lost sales because of that. Now they think they know what's better for Mac users with the lock stock and barrel switch to USB-C on the new MBP. The negative response has been heard far and wide. It didn't take long for brands like Huawei to put better, faster implementations of the fingerprint sensor onto the market. Google finally took fragmentation of Android more seriously and from Android 6 there has been a noticeable shift in the amount of older phones elegible for upgrade.
My 'Apple will say ...' was not literal. It was a summary of the Apple way of thinking based on past comments and actions from the company. Right now there is nothing in the actions or the words of the company to make us believe they after pushing volume.
Apple is losing customers on pricing. I am one example of that and we would be foolish to tthink ootherwise. Here we return to affordable again. If you want a relatively large screen or it is a must have for you, you have to pony up an Apple premium price or move out of the Apple ecosystem. Apple just doesn't have the product spread at the low end or mid range to cater for those users. We are back to margins again. Apple is happy with this but surely losing customers. Yes, the same things happens to competitors but with a manot difference. While competitors can lose customers, they lose them to competitors feeding off the same Android pool. However, those same companies are also receiving from the pool and have the opportunity to absorb iOS switchers too. Apple's offering is logically smaller in the amount of options it can offer but the premium price is a barrier along with screen size etc.
I seriously doubt that Apple has enough critical mass to keep things going if there is a turn around in public opinion. With the launch of the iPhone people began switching in earnest to Apple. People bought products simply because they were Apple products, because they thought they were synonymous of quality. However, these new Apple purchasers do not have the brand loyalty that kept the company afloat in the past. Not long ago, Sony was the king of the hill in consumer electronics. Very much like Apple today. Look at how little it took for Sony to fall from grace.
There is a lot that is wrong at Apple right now. A lot of it is stale thinking but there is also too much 'we know best' and users must adapt to what we decide.
The opposite should be true. The customers should be playing a key role in deciding where the company is heading.
Any source or reference for that?
"There is a lot that is wrong at Apple right now. A lot of it is stale thinking but there is also too much 'we know best' and users must adapt to what we decide.
The opposite should be true. The customers should be playing a key role in deciding where the company is heading."
Yeah. Apple must openly discuss incoming products prior to design, even auction the ports, display resolution, CPU speed, GPU specs and only include the ones that would receive the most bid from the public in the park.
You know what? Adding more and more judgements without any supportive reasoning, argument or fact doesn't help. Because everyone already knows here that you are unfalsifiable. Expose your metaphysics here as long as you want, continue to overuse this forum as your personal blog. No one cares...
1. Market share isn't their focus still. Market share only matters if you're not making money or if you're a commodity. Apple is making tons of money and its products aren't commodities.
2. Apple has been "losing" customers on pricing for years. No difference after the last refresh. Yet they still earn money.
3. Apple doesn't play on the low end market. It hasn't hurt them one bit. Why should they cater to every customer group? Apple is unlike any company. Its customers are loyal but not sheep.
4. Apple makes 90% of profits in the phone business. They don't need the low end. Let the other companies worry about the low end. Most of them are struggling. Market share doesn't pay the bills.
5. Doesn't have enough critical mass? What are you smoking? Many developers still develop for iOS first. Its main phone competitor has an exploding phone and recall!
6. A lot of wrong? Damn, Lots of companies would love to be as "wrong" as Apple is currently. Apple has a history of knowing what's best. Sure they're not 100% correct but they are generally more right than wrong.
7. If you listen to customers we would have faster horses, shitty flip phones, and vga, parallel ports, 5 1/4" floppy drives on our computers.
2. Already ccovered in point 1. Gain for today. Pain for tomorrow.
3. "Apple doesn't cater to ...". You probably remember the LCs, Performas, original iMac etc. That was the low end. Apple definitely was in that area and the fact that is only there now with 'old' machines is an example of how things have changed.
4. A very short sighted view. If the iPhone had never existed the Mac lines would possibly be at its healthiest level ever. It isn't performing as well as it could, probably due to resources being pumped into the iPhone business. Perhaps it's time for Apple to make its Mac business separate from the mobile division. The iPhone bubble may have burst already. The fact that it is currently the biggest earner by far for Apple takes nothing away from its other business areas.
5. I don't smoke. See my point one.
6. Short sighted again. It isn't what you have. It's what you could have. Apple is underperforming.
7. How wrong you are. A company that doesn't listen to what its customers want is dependent on guessing right. Large screen iPhones were the most recent example of Apple not listening to customers in time. Famously, Apple management had to be told 'we don't have what our customers want'
EDIT:
http://www.macworld.com/article/1017497/manifesto.html
Where did you read that Apple must openly discuss incoming products prior to design and auction ports? Can you give me a reference for that?
I have reasoned pretty much everything I have written. That said, I don't profess to have the absolute truth on where the market will go. I made it clear that the new MBPs are a mistake on many levels and the only way to seek change is by not buying the product until at least the biggest impediment (price) comes down to make the other compromises worth it. That might not happen at all but if these new models are flying off the shelves in unprecedented numbers, the critics will have to accept it and abandon the Mac. I'm in that group and I think it's pretty big.
We have have not heard Schilller beating the drum on sales since the first week of sales and even then he chose his words very carefully. The new MBPs were discounted over Black Friday too. These Macs got the 'Hello Again' treatment. They are supposedly revolutionary but people just criticised them - and in unheard of numbers. Availability might say some models will take weeks for delivery but there are many reasons that could justify that and which are not sales related. I have insisted that the next earnings call will be worth listening too. We just have to wait.
"Reasoning" ?
No. That is 'opinion'. Are you really unable to distinguish? However, my opinion is reasoned and supported by facts where relevant. You just choose to pluck words out of posts where they get stripped of context and then try to put words into the OPs comments: "... Apple must openly discuss incoming products prior to design". That is not constructive debate. It is a pathetic attempt at manipulation and quite common in some posters here
"That advertising on incoming stores you tweaked to humiliate Steve Jobs doesn't make it "reasoning" either"
Well, in fact it does. My point was that historically Apple has demonstrated that volume in terms of marketshare is important but now, under TC, that had changed.
I told you that those words were spoken by Apple and Steve Jobs himself and your only conclusion was that I was attempting to humiliate him?
No.
I gave my opinion, I reasoned it. I provided sufficient support for that reasoning, to the point of searching for a solid reference for you to chew on and, as is also common among some posters here, your only recourse was:
"just a self-injected doping to sustain your cheap psychodrama... "
Yeah. It is your opinion, but it isn't based on any fact.
I will resist the temptation to turn your own phrase on you.
To be factual you must supply evidence on these two things unless your intention is to humiliate Steve Jobs:
1) How and when Steve Jobs said first that market share wasn't an issue (for the Mac) only
2) How and when he then "turned around" to state that with 5% marketshare they wanted to go after the other 95%.
You may criticise Apple's policies but that is not enough for you. You have to introduce Steve Jobs to emphasize your... what? From that point it is up to you to prove your good faith, you exhausted all your credits in that.
I hope you can see that for yourself.
Anyone as disappointed in any company as you are with Apple should short the stock and buy competing products that better fit your needs from a company more responsive to your desires.
I have supported everything I need to with facts. I have supported my opinions with reasoning.
Why do people like you always try to put words in others people's mouths?
'Apple is always wrong...'
Please don't answer that. I know the answer.
I have never said Apple is always wrong.
The large screen iPhone was a perfect example of Apple getting it wrong and thinking it knew better than the customer.
The fact they eventually changed to meet customer demand is irrelevant in this case. The point was that they thought they knew better than the customer.
Instead of just admitting that I am right on screen size, that those are the facts and that Apple was wrong, you choose to 'defend' them with a ' [they] change to meet customer demand.'
THAT IS NOT THE POINT.
The point is they often think they know what the customer wants - to the detriment of the customer. It seems you cannot bring yourself to admit that.
This is what you called change, they went from a plastic back phone to a Metal back phone after copying the Iphone 5 and they camera hole went from square to round. Oh lets not forget, they moved the flash to form the bottom to the side. Lets not even talk about he curved screen since even the hard core Android user said it was a gimmick and was worthless as a feature.
I see your point you do not care what the change is as long as it looks different. So does you significant other expect you to look difference every couple years otherwise you are the same old boring person.
You did have not pointed out a good example of a product/company who is evolving their design every yr to two, and Samsung does not count since they just coping what apple did last. this means they Samsung is now on a 3 yr cycle as well, noting to copy this time.