Editorial: The future of Steve Jobs' iPad vision for Post-PC computing

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  • Reply 61 of 113
    hydrogen said:
    "Post-PC" : only two words to burry Microsoft ... Brilliant ....
    The term "Post-PC" is a fallacy.  There are a lot of things that can be done on a phone or tablet that previously was done on a PC, but there will alway be a PC market because many things require a larger screen, and something other than touch input.  Examples: Programming, device management, advanced graphics/video editing, accounting, authoring tools, etc.

    What it comes down to it business still need PCs.  While Apple shifted focus from PCs to mobile (and rightly so) they ignored the opportunity of taking market share in business.  With all the younger people out there using their mobile devices, it would have been natural to capture the universe student market, and eventually move them to higher priced business Macs.

    The problem is Apple priced themselves out of the student market (for no reason).  A basic Windows PC for $500 does everything most students are looking for.  If Apple built one for $800 they would have taken that business.  Then, as the students became Professionals they would have demanded the high priced Macs rather than learn Windows.

    Apple could have taken 15-20% of the PC market, and be just as profitable while making Apple loyalists happy.  Margins wouldn't be as high per product, but profits would be higher.  Instead Apple squandered the opportunity.  Microsoft messed up their mobile strategy for years, but they have the potential now (in the 2 in 1 strategy) to taken market share back from Apple IPads.  Their aggressive pricing is tempting... my next device might be one.  That means no more IPads, which means me (and others) leaving Apples ecosystem altogether.  I don't even like the last 3 flavors of Windows.

    Apple is setting up their own fall, rather than be truely dominating long term.
    GeorgeBMacavon b7
  • Reply 62 of 113
    xixoxixo Posts: 449member
    steveau said:
    Good analysis and the suggestions for improvements are all relevant, but you have missed the big improvement that is totally necessary if the iPad is to be truly post-PC: native handwriting recognition. If you have a touch sensitive screen and a stylus, why do you have to mimic a PC and have an on screen keyboard, or look even more like a laptop and have an attached keyboard? Clearly, people who want to use a keyboard or voice dictation should be able to have that flexibility, but that freedom should also be extended to people who would prefer to write (and I suspect that with good enough software that would be most of us). Apple holds all the best patents on HWR (a legacy of the Newton), so they should either (A) develop the functionality into a future iOS release, (B) spin off a separate company (like Filemaker) to develop it as an app, or (C) sell off the patents. Options B and C make no sense to me, so here's hoping that they will finally realise that while a finger is great as a mouse replacement, the stylus is great as a pen replacement, and both should be supported. Native HWR will truly be the killer app for the iPad - and if the patents are strong enough, uncopyable.
    The only people that would use handwriting on their computing devices when a keyboard is available are:

    1. Those that don't have a working keyboard
    2. Those that are too lazy to learn how to type
    3. Those that have a very special use-case

    Very few people can write on anything by hand much faster than 20 words per minute, while a common typing speed is 40 WPM, and that's not remotely fast: I was able to do that while doing hunt-and-peck over 20 years ago: at this time, I'm capable of typing (no hunt-and-peck) at 90 WPM.  I'm not saying everyone can hope to get that fast (as a software engineer, and before, I've been typing for ~=35 years of my 45 year life, no typing class, just experience) but the point is, even the best handwriting recognition won't make handwriting nearly as efficient as typing is now, for those that know how to type.

    Here's the thing: if you have the coordination (which I really don't) to handwrite decently fast, you can also do the typing faster as a result: thus, there's no valuable reason to depend on handwriting on a computer if you have a keyboard you can use, if you don't need to do other graphic input at the same time.

    The only meaningfully valid use-case for handwriting recognition would be for something like taking notes in a math class where you are also drawing complex equations with symbols and want to see the graphical representation: in that context, typing with a regular keyboard would possibly be less efficient for regular typing, largely because higher math symbols are a nuisance to work with on any keyboard, and arranging typographical relationships via a keyboard is less than ideal.
    voice recognition is much easier
  • Reply 63 of 113
    tzeshantzeshan Posts: 2,351member
    tzeshan said:
    If Apple wants to sell a significantly larger number of iPads, it only needs to do two things to iOS: implement a file system and give mouse capabilities. (After all - it was Apple that said your hands belong on the keyboard when defending the MacBook Pro's touch bar. It's hypocritical to call the iPad Pro a "Super Computer" and not apply that same logic). 

    But Apple won't do that because they're more concerned with revenue from their laptops than they are in bringing a true solution that customers want. 

    So I bought a Surface and am loving it (you know - that whole "toaster/refrigerator hybrid Cook said doesn't work). And if Apple ever does make those two changes to iOS I'll be the first to come back. But as it stands now it's a real pain to even download stock video from the Internet to an iPad for a video project - something I do with ease on my Surface daily. 

    So much for the iPad Pro being a "super computer."
    My MacBook Pro with touch bar beats Surface hands down.  It has longer battery life. Light. High resolution retina screen. Touch bar will provide many capability of a touch screen.  Apple has outsmarted Microsoft with the touch bar. 
    I'm sure it does -- until you rip the screen off to use it as a tablet.
    Surface is a laptop disguised as a tablet. It costs as much as a MacBook.  To compare it with an iPad is not fair. Compare it with a MacBook is fair. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 64 of 113
    hydrogen said:
    "Post-PC" : only two words to burry Microsoft ... Brilliant ....
    The term "Post-PC" is a fallacy.  There are a lot of things that can be done on a phone or tablet that previously was done on a PC, but there will alway be a PC market because many things require a larger screen, and something other than touch input.  Examples: Programming, device management, advanced graphics/video editing, accounting, authoring tools, etc.

    Steve Jobs explained the "Post-PC" term as "PCs will become trucks". This is what the convertibles industry didn't understand: they tried to add a spare car on a truck.

    hydrogen said:
    "Post-PC" : only two words to burry Microsoft ... Brilliant

    What it comes down to it business still need PCs.  While Apple shifted focus from PCs to mobile (and rightly so) they ignored the opportunity of taking market share in business. 

    Apple has not ignored the enterprise market and this exactly what they are doing with the "MobileFirst" initiative in collaboration with IBM. No need to mention Swift (especially server-side) that will boost in-house programming after the demise of Java.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 65 of 113
    If Apple wants to sell a significantly larger number of iPads, it only needs to do two things to iOS: implement a file system and give mouse capabilities. (After all - it was Apple that said your hands belong on the keyboard when defending the MacBook Pro's touch bar. It's hypocritical to call the iPad Pro a "Super Computer" and not apply that same logic). 

    But Apple won't do that because they're more concerned with revenue from their laptops than they are in bringing a true solution that customers want. 

    So I bought a Surface and am loving it (you know - that whole "toaster/refrigerator hybrid Cook said doesn't work). And if Apple ever does make those two changes to iOS I'll be the first to come back. But as it stands now it's a real pain to even download stock video from the Internet to an iPad for a video project - something I do with ease on my Surface daily. 

    So much for the iPad Pro being a "super computer."
    iPad is the most secure device to download stock video from internet, especially if your venue is the Usenet (remember that?). Malware disguised as stock video cannot harm an iPad but will destroy your Surface (if it is not already part of a BotNet). You have a very dangerous online lifestyle, get the necessary protections for your Surface...
    pscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 66 of 113
    This is the type of article that brings out the best in AI forums.  We have a lot intelligence, imagination and experience.  It comes right out in topics like this.

    To me, iOS and macOS need to have discreet functionality for each to be optiomized.  The discreet hardware form factors are actually a reflection of this functionality, rather than the other way around.  

    Accordingly, when macOS runs on ARM, then we have seemless hardware form factor options.  We have an iPad/iPhone that functions as macOS when docked with a full sized keyboard and display and then can function as an iPad/iPhone/Mac when carried about.  This is full functionality in any scenario, which I imagine is the next paradigm.  iCloud provides the common cross-OS file system.  This seems the obvious solution.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 67 of 113
    WhyGee said:
    It became a consumer electronics company and even dropped the word 'Computer' from its name with the iPod.
    Apple dropped 'Computer' from its name when iPhone was introduced January, 9, 2007.
    edited February 2017 cornchipwatto_cobra
  • Reply 68 of 113
    In all my reading of rumors about upcoming iPad updates--mini and pro--nothing was written about the air 2. Have you heard anything about any upgrades to the non-pro iPad air 2 this year? 

    Thanks.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 69 of 113
    I think Apple has lost its way with the iPad. Instead of committing to the touch interface paradigm, Apple chose to backtrack with its keyboard cover and, to a lesser extent, the pencil. Now the iPad is just another touchscreen laptop. It's as if they took the original idea of the iPad and handed it over to Microsoft.
  • Reply 70 of 113
    I think Apple has lost its way with the iPad.
    Rumors of the iPad Pro (12.9" model) started about 18 months before it was actually available.  I drooled and drooled, waiting for the day it became available (check my posting history).

    After over a year of ownership, I would not trade mine for anything else.  I even bought a second Pencil after misplacing my first (ouch).  It's that good.

    I must say, though, I don't understand the keyboard cover remark.  You imply that it is a required accessory, which is not true.

    GeorgeBMacwatto_cobra
  • Reply 71 of 113
    kevin keekevin kee Posts: 1,289member
    I think Apple has lost its way with the iPad. Instead of committing to the touch interface paradigm, Apple chose to backtrack with its keyboard cover and, to a lesser extent, the pencil. Now the iPad is just another touchscreen laptop. It's as if they took the original idea of the iPad and handed it over to Microsoft.
    Which are coming only as an option with the  Pro version (See, the word "option"? You don't have to buy them.). See, iPad Pro was always intended for productivity (regardless of its success), and a total touch screen is a less ergonomic solution compare to a keyboard when it comes for typing 10 pages document, or that the pencil is a much better tool for drawing than your finger.

    iPad, iPhone, as "post-pc" devices are merely to indicate that the hardware are powerful enough to do common things that PC are no longer necessary for those particular tasks (checking email, reading news, browsing net, etc). The term is not meant that PC has been replaced by, but instead, it is no longer the only option. Soon or later, there would be many devices that have microchip in it and smart enough, such as wearable techs. (Watch and Airpods are only the beginning).
    GeorgeBMacwatto_cobra
  • Reply 72 of 113
    I think Apple has lost its way with the iPad. Instead of committing to the touch interface paradigm, Apple chose to backtrack with its keyboard cover and, to a lesser extent, the pencil. Now the iPad is just another touchscreen laptop. It's as if they took the original idea of the iPad and handed it over to Microsoft.
    Keyboard cover and pencil are not mandatory, these are just accessories. Pencil is a general purpose pointing device for precise data entry and selection but it isn't meant to replace the touch functionality. Apple had to introduce iPad to business meetings. One embarrassing shortcoming of iPad in business meetings is the inability to take notes using the keyboard, the pencil resolves that. And once you're present in corporate meetings, you begun to conquer the corporate realm. Believe me, those guys know their business...
    edited February 2017 cornchipwatto_cobra
  • Reply 73 of 113
    mattinozmattinoz Posts: 2,351member
    I think Apple has lost its way with the iPad. Instead of committing to the touch interface paradigm, Apple chose to backtrack with its keyboard cover and, to a lesser extent, the pencil. Now the iPad is just another touchscreen laptop. It's as if they took the original idea of the iPad and handed it over to Microsoft.
    Keyboard cover and pencil are not mandatory, these are just accessories. Pencil is a general purpose pointing device for precise data entry and selection but it isn't meant to replace the touch functionality. Apple had to introduce iPad to business meetings. One embarrassing shortcoming of iPad in business meetings is the inability to take notes using the keyboard, the pencil resolves that. And once you're present in corporate meetings, you begun to conquer the corporate realm. Believe me, those guys know their business...
    Indeed the best uses of the pencil use it in conjunction with touch to expand touch not to replace it.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 74 of 113
    hydrogen said:
    steveau said:
    Good analysis and the suggestions for improvements are all relevant, but you have missed the big improvement that is totally necessary if the iPad is to be truly post-PC: native handwriting recognition. <...>
    Handwriting ! relics of the past ! who still uses handwriting ?
    Actually in terms of learning handwriting is neurologically more complex. Hence making hand written notes are more effective than simply typing them. Your brain binds the position of the hand with the words themselves. Handwriting is no more the past than drawing is. 
    brucemc
  • Reply 75 of 113
    hydrogen said:
    steveau said:
    Good analysis and the suggestions for improvements are all relevant, but you have missed the big improvement that is totally necessary if the iPad is to be truly post-PC: native handwriting recognition. <...>
    Handwriting ! relics of the past ! who still uses handwriting ?
    Eat up Martha.




  • Reply 76 of 113
    hydrogen said:
    steveau said:
    Good analysis and the suggestions for improvements are all relevant, but you have missed the big improvement that is totally necessary if the iPad is to be truly post-PC: native handwriting recognition. <...>
    Handwriting ! relics of the past ! who still uses handwriting ?
    I do, and millions more. Much of my working life is spent in meetings. In meetings I want to take notes. Typing in a meeting is not appropriate. Dictating comments is not appropriate (particularly comments like "this guy is a dickhead"). So, ever since I had to give up my beloved Newton, I handwrite on paper. If I want to handwrite who are you to tell me that I shouldn't.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 77 of 113
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,376member
    steveau said:
    hydrogen said:
    steveau said:
    Good analysis and the suggestions for improvements are all relevant, but you have missed the big improvement that is totally necessary if the iPad is to be truly post-PC: native handwriting recognition. <...>
    Handwriting ! relics of the past ! who still uses handwriting ?
    I do, and millions more. Much of my working life is spent in meetings. In meetings I want to take notes. Typing in a meeting is not appropriate. Dictating comments is not appropriate (particularly comments like "this guy is a dickhead"). So, ever since I had to give up my beloved Newton, I handwrite on paper. If I want to handwrite who are you to tell me that I shouldn't.
    Not sure what the issue is for some people about handwriting notes; seems a useful alternative to typing or voice to text.

    There appear to be plenty of third party handwriting recognition apps for iPad Pro using the pencil. If anything, the Pencil(s) will probably become a ubiquitous accessory for all iPad's and even the iPhone over time. The only issue is whether Apple should have provided it, and I'm guessing that Apple thought that third parties could provide this better, at this time at least, than Apple.

    Enjoy your iPad Pro.

  • Reply 78 of 113
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    First, let me congratulate AI for having the courage to discuss the 'IPad in the Post-PC era'.  That took guts!

    But, the article is flawed for two reasons:
    1)  It bases its conclusions and projections on revenue.   Steve Jobs' Apple was based on technological innovation that made people's lives better.   Revenue derived from that.  It didn't drive that.  And, in fact, tech companies that drive innovation based on revenue projections are the most likely to fall behind and fail.   I hope that Apple does not fall into that trap.   It would be a great loss for all...

    2)  They say:  "Apple appears to be doubling down on Steve Jobs' vision of iPad as a "Post-PC" computing device".
    In that statement they are pitting the tablet format against the laptop format.   In the past and even today, that is a valid stand to take.   Tablets have simply not had to power to compete with their larger, heavier siblings.  But, that distinction is ending.   With 64bit, multi-core processors tablets are approaching the power of the laptop -- certainly that of the lower end laptops such as the MacBook.   The little brother is nipping at the heals of his older, larger brother....

    But, much more importantly, the functional abilities of each are constrained by their form factor.   Take a typical business example:
    An accountant is sitting at his desk preparing reports and spreadsheets for a coming month-end report and presentation.  For that, his laptop is well suited.   But, in the afternoon he needs to go out onto the shop floor to take an inventory.   For that task, his tablet is best suited to his needs because trying to balance a laptop in one hand and type with the other just doesn't work well.

    Ok, so now consider the future:   The accountant gets to work, drops his tablet into its dock and uses its keyboard, mouse and large screen to prepare his reports and spreadsheets.   In the afternoon, he pulls the tablet out of its dock and takes it out onto the shop floor and uses it as a conventional tablet to take inventory.

    Some would derisively call that devise a "hybrid".   It is not.   It is a convertible fully capable of providing high quality functionality of either a laptop or tablet at will.   It is the future.   If Apple does not do it, Microsoft & Samsung will -- with Google soon to follow.  The question is not IF, it is WHEN?   
    In Apple ecosytem those are called "toaster-fridge".

    Corporations could easily do it. But they didn't go that way. They have gone the iPad way and they still put true computers on the desk of their accountants, not empty shells with keyboard, mouse and large screen. Laptop with detachable display was already a patent of Apple. Microsoft is not a hardware producer and it will never be. They've just produced demo units to show their self-claimed versatility of Windows. If they will conquer the enterprise world, they will do that with many flavors of Windows, not with Surface.
    I looked for some logic in that, but found nothing but a chuckle -- especially at:  "Corporations could easily do it. But they didn't go that way".  There's a good reason why they didn't go that way:   It doesn't exist.   Apple hasn't done it, yet.  
    Of course it doesn't exist because iPad exists and it will never exist because again iPad exists.

    Toaster-fridge has appeared as the brilliant idea of Steve Ballmer as soon as Steve Jobs pronounced "Post-PC". Since then Steve Ballmer has been fired, iPad prevailed and "convertibles" business didn't hold. And to put an end to this convertibles saga and to undo the damage Steve Ballmer's epiphany has done to the PC industry, Microsoft released the good old PC in the form of a folding desktop: Surface Studio. There is nothing "convertible" in it, it's screen doesn't even swivel. Surface Studio marks the end of the "convertibles" urban legend.

    In the wireless era, any "dock" idea is obsolete because a dock is a wired connection. iPad is docked everywhere and to everything thanks to wi-fi/LTE and Blutooth. I don't need my iPad be "docked" to my computer because I already use my computer from within my iPad thanks to VNC over wi-fi. Thanks to the Continuity feature of iOS/macOS I continue any task on my iPad from where I left off on my computer. All these achievements make the "dock" idea obsolete.
    Your logic continues to go down hill...
    ...  That's typically what happens when a person argues from the standpoint of a rigid ideology.   They have to justify their conclusion -- even if it is unjustifiable.
  • Reply 79 of 113
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    hydrogen said:
    "Post-PC" : only two words to burry Microsoft ... Brilliant ....
    The term "Post-PC" is a fallacy.  There are a lot of things that can be done on a phone or tablet that previously was done on a PC, but there will alway be a PC market because many things require a larger screen, and something other than touch input.  Examples: Programming, device management, advanced graphics/video editing, accounting, authoring tools, etc.

    What it comes down to it business still need PCs.  While Apple shifted focus from PCs to mobile (and rightly so) they ignored the opportunity of taking market share in business.  With all the younger people out there using their mobile devices, it would have been natural to capture the universe student market, and eventually move them to higher priced business Macs.

    The problem is Apple priced themselves out of the student market (for no reason).  A basic Windows PC for $500 does everything most students are looking for.  If Apple built one for $800 they would have taken that business.  Then, as the students became Professionals they would have demanded the high priced Macs rather than learn Windows.

    Apple could have taken 15-20% of the PC market, and be just as profitable while making Apple loyalists happy.  Margins wouldn't be as high per product, but profits would be higher.  Instead Apple squandered the opportunity.  Microsoft messed up their mobile strategy for years, but they have the potential now (in the 2 in 1 strategy) to taken market share back from Apple IPads.  Their aggressive pricing is tempting... my next device might be one.  That means no more IPads, which means me (and others) leaving Apples ecosystem altogether.  I don't even like the last 3 flavors of Windows.

    Apple is setting up their own fall, rather than be truely dominating long term.
    All good points...  And, it is also the reason why Apple will, at some point, give in (just as they did with the IPhone Plus models) to the inevitable.   Students and other non-professionals will not be willing to shell out thousands for both a high priced tablet AND a high priced laptop or desktop -- and then recycle them every several years.   At some point, Apple will be forced by competition to expand the IPad to enable it to be a 2 in 1 device where you don't have to buy a separate mother board, cpu, memory, etc...  for each form factor.

    I have a 4th grader who loves his IPad but at some point will need a PC.   Am I to buy him both just because Apple refuses to bend on allowing his IPad to function as a PC?    If the answer was a few hundred $ I would say 'yes'.   But not for a few thousand $.  Meanwhile, the longer Apple remains in an outdated world, the stronger its competition becomes.  
    avon b7
  • Reply 80 of 113
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    tzeshan said:
    tzeshan said:
    If Apple wants to sell a significantly larger number of iPads, it only needs to do two things to iOS: implement a file system and give mouse capabilities. (After all - it was Apple that said your hands belong on the keyboard when defending the MacBook Pro's touch bar. It's hypocritical to call the iPad Pro a "Super Computer" and not apply that same logic). 

    But Apple won't do that because they're more concerned with revenue from their laptops than they are in bringing a true solution that customers want. 

    So I bought a Surface and am loving it (you know - that whole "toaster/refrigerator hybrid Cook said doesn't work). And if Apple ever does make those two changes to iOS I'll be the first to come back. But as it stands now it's a real pain to even download stock video from the Internet to an iPad for a video project - something I do with ease on my Surface daily. 

    So much for the iPad Pro being a "super computer."
    My MacBook Pro with touch bar beats Surface hands down.  It has longer battery life. Light. High resolution retina screen. Touch bar will provide many capability of a touch screen.  Apple has outsmarted Microsoft with the touch bar. 
    I'm sure it does -- until you rip the screen off to use it as a tablet.
    Surface is a laptop disguised as a tablet. It costs as much as a MacBook.  To compare it with an iPad is not fair. Compare it with a MacBook is fair. 
    Sorry, but it is both....   It is a 2 in 1.   Deal with it.
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