The cost issues is basically Intel's fault. And one reason why you haven't seen a single AMD GPU / Motherboard with TB3 built in.
I have a feeling this move has a lot to do with keeping Apple with Intel. As opening up and making this free is very Un-Intel. They could have done this many years ago. Why now? Why mentioned TB3 was suppose to be included in Kaby Lake and didn't? Depending on Model that could save $25 - $50 of BOM cost on MBP.
I think and I hope this is Apple unhappy with Intel's roadmap and performance, from CPU to Baseband, and still failed to open up their Fab. ( We are pretty certain Apple will be with TSMC all the way to 5nm in 2020)
It tells me they've already lost the Apple exclusivity and Apple is going to offer AMD Ryzen CPUs/APUs moving forward. USB 3.1 gen 2 already in Ryzen CPUs. The release of Threadripper 16 Core/32 thread Ryzen 9 this July never mind the Epyc 32/64 for Dataservers [Apple will love these] makes it clear that the performance gains of the Infinity band interconnect and Perf/watt of AMDs new systems makes it a no brainer if you're Apple.
AMDs first Ryzen APU comes with Vega GPGPU. iGPU just can't compete. They are designed for low power 15W to 45W laptop systems.
Ryzen2 this Spring is 7nm fab on TSMC and GlobalFoundries. Same with their GPGPUs. The HBM2 memory is just another piece of the puzzle.
Ryzen 2, or Zen 2 is actually 14nm+, Zen 3 is 7nm, so that is 2019. We will have Cannonlake 10nm CPU early next year with Integrated TB3, while Vega GPU is great, I think Apple will likely stick with Intel on the Laptops.
I am actually thinking Apple will switch to AMD on all of their Desktop Mac, which is iMac and Mac Pro in 2018. Since there is no 10nm Desktop CPU in 2018 as Intel doesn;t give a damn about the shrinking Desktop Market.
They should've never demanded royalties in the first place. We need a standard connector, bus, and protocol to replace USB 2, and we need it yesterday. Thunderbolt is good tech (not as good as it should've been, though), but the costs have been ridiculous and have been a huge roadblock to widespread adoption since day one.
Firewire 400, Firewire 800, Thunderbolt 1, Thunderbolt 2, Thunderbolt 3. It's time to stop with the failure proprietary connectors.
It's totally different. With T3, it can be USB or Thunderbolt and it can do display or emulate any other protocols via an adaptor. Hardly a failure. If the device is just USB, it will work with USB-C port with adaptor but expect to see more USB-C types and if you get Thunderbolt 3 device, it will still use the USB port. It's really a win-win situation.
For those who have USB-C port without Thunderbolt 3, they will naturally not be able to use T3 devices since it's not supported. But for Mac users, they are able to use Thunderbolt 3 on new Mac laptops.
So does this mean it will be royalty-free for AMD to make Thunderbolt 3 controllers for their CPUs?
No. Intel is dropping royalty fees, not licensing. They still get to decide who can use it, they're just saying they will no longer charge a fee above and beyond the hardware cost to manufacturers who are licensed to implement it.
So does this mean it will be royalty-free for AMD to make Thunderbolt 3 controllers for their CPUs?
No. Intel is dropping royalty fees, not licensing. They still get to decide who can use it, they're just saying they will no longer charge a fee above and beyond the hardware cost to manufacturers who are licensed to implement it.
You'd assume Apple would be a licensee if they are partners on this. They have the expertise to make their own controllers with PA Semi (that specialised in ARM Controllers PCIe switches for networking equipment). Apple already have build PCIe into the A Series Chips and I'd assume Lightning and Thunderbolt are same school of design anyway. They could well go Thunderbolt in the Aseries and use those chips as platform controller across the Mac range completely free themselves up to choose which ever x86 applications procesor they want. Thinking Modular Mac Pro, Aseries Platform Hub Plugs x86 (to start) applications processor and supporting GPU's. The same design assuming this is true would work for a MacBook but with a low power x86 and iGPU from either Intel or AMD.
Firewire 400, Firewire 800, Thunderbolt 1, Thunderbolt 2, Thunderbolt 3. It's time to stop with the failure proprietary connectors.
I wouldn't necessarily call FireWire a failure either...sure, it didn't take off like USB did, but at the time, USB didn't have the bandwidth of FireWire so FireWire did serve its purpose and people still rely on it today. It certainly had its place in the market. Thunderbolt will be the same way.
Actually, Firewire did take off, especially with higher-end (at the time) video cameras. Firewire could handle more devices than USB. USB became the defacto-standard because it was the cheapest I/O port available for commodity PCs. Apple has never been about using the cheapest or slowest of anything, contrary to what many will say, they've been about pushing the envelope on everything that makes sense. The problem we have today with Thunderbolt is its cost and I'm still waiting for an anonymous source to answer my cost questions (reply 2) to see who we can blame and determine whether licensing costs are actually a big deal. I don't want guesses or rumors, I want to know (and can handle) the truth!
I don't have firm numbers on licensing costs, but I was told about 10 minutes ago by somebody I've known with for about 20 years that going free on TB3 is "pretty major" for his company and will "save a shitload of money."
A big "shitload" or a small "shitload"? I'm sure licensing figures are confidential, although I don't understand why, but a bit more transparency on everyone's part would go a long way towards understanding where the costs really come from. We have a general idea how much profit Apple makes, how much their R&D budget is, but don't know anything close to real numbers for component and licensing costs.
Here's an example. Maybe OWC can fill in the blanks and be transparent about their costs. (It's more difficult since they don't carry their RAID boxes without Thunderbolt anymore)
OWC Mercury Elite Pro Qx2, 4-bay 3.5” disk enclosure, USB3/2, FW800, eSATA on sale $249.99
These are as close to compatible as they list so why does the Thunderbolt-only enclosure cost $150 more (even more when not on sale)? Is this mainly hardware costs for the TB controller or licensing? The older model has way more hardware costs and more types of licensing yet it costs less.
I presume your friend supplies peripherals and not computers? Can we interpret "pretty major" as dropping costs 10%? 20%? 30%? Way more? or not even a 10% savings to the customer?
Got some anonymous data from a few sources. They all claim that it costs them between $8 and $10 for licensing PER PLUG END, MALE OR FEMALE, at present for any flavor of Thunderbolt.
So, $16 - $20 per cable, dock, or enclosure with pass-through.
Firewire 400, Firewire 800, Thunderbolt 1, Thunderbolt 2, Thunderbolt 3. It's time to stop with the failure proprietary connectors.
I wouldn't necessarily call FireWire a failure either...sure, it didn't take off like USB did, but at the time, USB didn't have the bandwidth of FireWire so FireWire did serve its purpose and people still rely on it today. It certainly had its place in the market. Thunderbolt will be the same way.
Actually, Firewire did take off, especially with higher-end (at the time) video cameras. Firewire could handle more devices than USB. USB became the defacto-standard because it was the cheapest I/O port available for commodity PCs. Apple has never been about using the cheapest or slowest of anything, contrary to what many will say, they've been about pushing the envelope on everything that makes sense. The problem we have today with Thunderbolt is its cost and I'm still waiting for an anonymous source to answer my cost questions (reply 2) to see who we can blame and determine whether licensing costs are actually a big deal. I don't want guesses or rumors, I want to know (and can handle) the truth!
I don't have firm numbers on licensing costs, but I was told about 10 minutes ago by somebody I've known with for about 20 years that going free on TB3 is "pretty major" for his company and will "save a shitload of money."
A big "shitload" or a small "shitload"? I'm sure licensing figures are confidential, although I don't understand why, but a bit more transparency on everyone's part would go a long way towards understanding where the costs really come from. We have a general idea how much profit Apple makes, how much their R&D budget is, but don't know anything close to real numbers for component and licensing costs.
Here's an example. Maybe OWC can fill in the blanks and be transparent about their costs. (It's more difficult since they don't carry their RAID boxes without Thunderbolt anymore)
OWC Mercury Elite Pro Qx2, 4-bay 3.5” disk enclosure, USB3/2, FW800, eSATA on sale $249.99
These are as close to compatible as they list so why does the Thunderbolt-only enclosure cost $150 more (even more when not on sale)? Is this mainly hardware costs for the TB controller or licensing? The older model has way more hardware costs and more types of licensing yet it costs less.
I presume your friend supplies peripherals and not computers? Can we interpret "pretty major" as dropping costs 10%? 20%? 30%? Way more? or not even a 10% savings to the customer?
Got some anonymous data from a few sources. They all claim that it costs them between $8 and $10 for licensing PER PLUG END, MALE OR FEMALE, at present for any flavor of Thunderbolt.
So, $16 - $20 per cable, dock, or enclosure with pass-through.
Nice work Mikey! Any idea how that compares to USB? Are there licensing fees associated with that?
Firewire 400, Firewire 800, Thunderbolt 1, Thunderbolt 2, Thunderbolt 3. It's time to stop with the failure proprietary connectors.
I wouldn't necessarily call FireWire a failure either...sure, it didn't take off like USB did, but at the time, USB didn't have the bandwidth of FireWire so FireWire did serve its purpose and people still rely on it today. It certainly had its place in the market. Thunderbolt will be the same way.
Actually, Firewire did take off, especially with higher-end (at the time) video cameras. Firewire could handle more devices than USB. USB became the defacto-standard because it was the cheapest I/O port available for commodity PCs. Apple has never been about using the cheapest or slowest of anything, contrary to what many will say, they've been about pushing the envelope on everything that makes sense. The problem we have today with Thunderbolt is its cost and I'm still waiting for an anonymous source to answer my cost questions (reply 2) to see who we can blame and determine whether licensing costs are actually a big deal. I don't want guesses or rumors, I want to know (and can handle) the truth!
I don't have firm numbers on licensing costs, but I was told about 10 minutes ago by somebody I've known with for about 20 years that going free on TB3 is "pretty major" for his company and will "save a shitload of money."
A big "shitload" or a small "shitload"? I'm sure licensing figures are confidential, although I don't understand why, but a bit more transparency on everyone's part would go a long way towards understanding where the costs really come from. We have a general idea how much profit Apple makes, how much their R&D budget is, but don't know anything close to real numbers for component and licensing costs.
Here's an example. Maybe OWC can fill in the blanks and be transparent about their costs. (It's more difficult since they don't carry their RAID boxes without Thunderbolt anymore)
OWC Mercury Elite Pro Qx2, 4-bay 3.5” disk enclosure, USB3/2, FW800, eSATA on sale $249.99
These are as close to compatible as they list so why does the Thunderbolt-only enclosure cost $150 more (even more when not on sale)? Is this mainly hardware costs for the TB controller or licensing? The older model has way more hardware costs and more types of licensing yet it costs less.
I presume your friend supplies peripherals and not computers? Can we interpret "pretty major" as dropping costs 10%? 20%? 30%? Way more? or not even a 10% savings to the customer?
Got some anonymous data from a few sources. They all claim that it costs them between $8 and $10 for licensing PER PLUG END, MALE OR FEMALE, at present for any flavor of Thunderbolt.
So, $16 - $20 per cable, dock, or enclosure with pass-through.
Nice work Mikey! Any idea how that compares to USB? Are there licensing fees associated with that?
Mike Wuerthele, not Mikey Campbell
Yes. Generally about $1 per device or cable, but it can be lower.
Firewire 400, Firewire 800, Thunderbolt 1, Thunderbolt 2, Thunderbolt 3. It's time to stop with the failure proprietary connectors.
I wouldn't necessarily call FireWire a failure either...sure, it didn't take off like USB did, but at the time, USB didn't have the bandwidth of FireWire so FireWire did serve its purpose and people still rely on it today. It certainly had its place in the market. Thunderbolt will be the same way.
Actually, Firewire did take off, especially with higher-end (at the time) video cameras. Firewire could handle more devices than USB. USB became the defacto-standard because it was the cheapest I/O port available for commodity PCs. Apple has never been about using the cheapest or slowest of anything, contrary to what many will say, they've been about pushing the envelope on everything that makes sense. The problem we have today with Thunderbolt is its cost and I'm still waiting for an anonymous source to answer my cost questions (reply 2) to see who we can blame and determine whether licensing costs are actually a big deal. I don't want guesses or rumors, I want to know (and can handle) the truth!
I don't have firm numbers on licensing costs, but I was told about 10 minutes ago by somebody I've known with for about 20 years that going free on TB3 is "pretty major" for his company and will "save a shitload of money."
A big "shitload" or a small "shitload"? I'm sure licensing figures are confidential, although I don't understand why, but a bit more transparency on everyone's part would go a long way towards understanding where the costs really come from. We have a general idea how much profit Apple makes, how much their R&D budget is, but don't know anything close to real numbers for component and licensing costs.
Here's an example. Maybe OWC can fill in the blanks and be transparent about their costs. (It's more difficult since they don't carry their RAID boxes without Thunderbolt anymore)
OWC Mercury Elite Pro Qx2, 4-bay 3.5” disk enclosure, USB3/2, FW800, eSATA on sale $249.99
These are as close to compatible as they list so why does the Thunderbolt-only enclosure cost $150 more (even more when not on sale)? Is this mainly hardware costs for the TB controller or licensing? The older model has way more hardware costs and more types of licensing yet it costs less.
I presume your friend supplies peripherals and not computers? Can we interpret "pretty major" as dropping costs 10%? 20%? 30%? Way more? or not even a 10% savings to the customer?
Got some anonymous data from a few sources. They all claim that it costs them between $8 and $10 for licensing PER PLUG END, MALE OR FEMALE, at present for any flavor of Thunderbolt.
So, $16 - $20 per cable, dock, or enclosure with pass-through.
Nice work Mikey! Any idea how that compares to USB? Are there licensing fees associated with that?
Mike Wuerthele, not Mikey Campbell
Yes. Generally about $1 per device or cable, but it can be lower.
It had actually slipped my mind that there's another Micheal at AI when I wrote that. It did occur to me that you may not care for being called Mikey. I work with a guy who doesn't like being called Mikey, but that might be because his name is David. I didn't expect that it might give the impression that I was confused about to whom I was responding.
A combination of age, limited intelligence and several head traumas do lead to me often being confused, but in this case the injection hose should be connected directly to the feeder flange. Sometimes I repeat myself too, partly because of age, partly as a result of several head traumas, but mostly because I'm just not that bright. I sometimes get confused and repeat myself, too.
That's quite a difference in licensing costs! I wonder how long it will take for the change to trickle down and make Thunderbolt cables more affordable? I also wonder how much of the cost savings vendors will pass along to customers? Would it be cynical to think that because people are accustomed to paying more for less common interfaces, manufacturers may be inclined to use this opportunity to pad their margins?
Comments
We will have Cannonlake 10nm CPU early next year with Integrated TB3, while Vega GPU is great, I think Apple will likely stick with Intel on the Laptops.
I am actually thinking Apple will switch to AMD on all of their Desktop Mac, which is iMac and Mac Pro in 2018. Since there is no 10nm Desktop CPU in 2018 as Intel doesn;t give a damn about the shrinking Desktop Market.
Now Apple.. how about that audio over lightning that you were so "brave" to push? Royalty free now?
Yes. Generally about $1 per device or cable, but it can be lower.
A combination of age, limited intelligence and several head traumas do lead to me often being confused, but in this case the injection hose should be connected directly to the feeder flange. Sometimes I repeat myself too, partly because of age, partly as a result of several head traumas, but mostly because I'm just not that bright. I sometimes get confused and repeat myself, too.
That's quite a difference in licensing costs! I wonder how long it will take for the change to trickle down and make Thunderbolt cables more affordable? I also wonder how much of the cost savings vendors will pass along to customers? Would it be cynical to think that because people are accustomed to paying more for less common interfaces, manufacturers may be inclined to use this opportunity to pad their margins?