Tim Cook himself has become a political activist of sorts for a tiny and arguably "insignificant" percentage of the population, standing in their defense.
There are indeed situations when Apple "owes."
and they are the most valuable company on the planet. These two things are not unrelated: Apple started building great all-around machines like the iMac, the Mac mini, and the iBook/MacBook Air/MacBook, and the (largely) PC-buying public responded by starting to switch. As Jobs himself said (paraphrasing), capturing even five percent of the PC-buying populace would double or triple Apple's revenues, and would barely register as a rounding error to Redmond. Turns out he was articulating Apple's strategy, and his plan worked exactly as described.
Nice try, but Apple is not the most valuable company on the planet because of the Mac. It's all because of the iPhone. Let's get real. I don't know the exact percentage, but Mac is a very small part of Apple's overall revenues.
Yeah - the first sentence that you clipped out before your quoted part in your response spells that out. The percentage is about 12 percent of Apple's revenue.
@JDW, pork and brisket are excellent, thanks. Quick lunches for the work-week.
Tim Cook himself has become a political activist of sorts for a tiny and arguably "insignificant" percentage of the population, standing in their defense.
There are indeed situations when Apple "owes."
and they are the most valuable company on the planet. These two things are not unrelated: Apple started building great all-around machines like the iMac, the Mac mini, and the iBook/MacBook Air/MacBook, and the (largely) PC-buying public responded by starting to switch. As Jobs himself said (paraphrasing), capturing even five percent of the PC-buying populace would double or triple Apple's revenues, and would barely register as a rounding error to Redmond. Turns out he was articulating Apple's strategy, and his plan worked exactly as described.
Nice try, but Apple is not the most valuable company on the planet because of the Mac. It's all because of the iPhone. Let's get real. I don't know the exact percentage, but Mac is a very small part of Apple's overall revenues.
It's not "very small": it was well over 10% in Q2 2017 (almost $6 billion out of $53 billion total revenue).
Apple's Mac business is the single most profitable personal computer brand in the world.
I don't seem to reed it in this article. Is this a winner, or is it an OK laptop for a very high price?
Neither.
It's still crap in a lot of ways, there's still a 16GB RAM limit, the SSD and RAM are still soldered, the battery is still glued, the keyboard is still awful, the graphics chip is still wimpy. Oh, and it's overpriced.
This is not a significant upgrade from the 2012 MBP, and in many ways it's a downgrade.
I'm not saying it's the wrong laptop for everybody, but this really should be called the MacBook Executive, because it's not a pro machine, but it's great for VP types.
I don't seem to reed it in this article. Is this a winner, or is it an OK laptop for a very high price?
Neither.
It's still crap in a lot of ways, there's still a 16GB RAM limit, the SSD and RAM are still soldered, the battery is still glued, the keyboard is still awful, the graphics chip is still wimpy. Oh, and it's overpriced.
This is not a significant upgrade from the 2012 MBP, and in many ways it's a downgrade.
I'm not saying it's the wrong laptop for everybody, but this really should be called the MacBook Executive, because it's not a pro machine, but it's great for VP types.
"And in many ways it's a downgrade", do you know how full of shit even just that one statement is?! It's superior to all previous MBP's before it in every measurable metric, PERIOD.
Smaller battery to make the case as thin as Mr. Ive alone wanted
No internal SD card slot, necessitating the need for a stupid dongle
Not even 1 legacy USB-A connector, necessitating the need for another dongle or adapter
No MagSafe = NotSafe
No LED on power connector
Trackpad so large you need extremely advanced palm rejection to make it usable
No illuminated Apple logo on back
Still no 32GB of RAM
Yeah, that's fulfilling a promise alright.
And before the status-quo-at-Cupertino defenders start to take issue with me, consider well I speak of the 15" model, which has plenty of space to have accommodated 1 legacy USB-A port and an SD card slot. At the very least they should have done that. USB-C won't be seen "pretty much everywhere" for at least another 3-5 years. Having one legacy USB-A port would have been the right thing to do, to slowly transition the machine into the future. And as to SD cards, they are no going anywhere, not even 5 years hence. The remove of that was just a stupid over simplification. And I say this as someone who tends to like Apple's simplifications.
Last November I turned a blind eye to the above deficiencies and placed an order for the 2016 MBP 15", top-end spec. After a month of waiting, I could wait no more so I cancelled the order and found a top-end late 2015 edition rMBP 15" with dGPU. I bought that and until a week ago did not regret that decision. Now after a merely 5 light wipe-downs of the screen, the anti-glare coating is starting to come off as shown in my video here:
I used to think Apple was an exception to the rule when one thought about "American Made." You know what I mean. American cars compared to Japanese cars being no comparison in that American cars break down far more. Yet in years past I always thought Apple in a class of its own. Then I bought a late 2009 iMac and had the video card die just after the AppleCare expired, and it took an email to Tim Cook to get it fixed, which I appreciate. But 3 years after the video card swap the same problem happened, prompting me to perform a DIY fix as shown here:
I love Apple, yet Apple pisses me off too. Boy do they piss me off. Especially the stupid delimitation problem even on the last good rMBP (the 2015 edition). Joining the Staingate FaceBook page I see people who are on their 3 screen and still have the same problem, which means Apple never fixed the problem. And who knows if the 2016 and 2017 rMBP's have that problem too. Yet I've never had such delimitation problems on any iOS device, despite my having cleaned them in a more harsh way (rubbing my iPad on my T-shirt, etc.). If Apple can make decent iOS devices, what's the deal with the low Mac quality?
I've also owned a variety of Macs since my first Mac, the 128k, in 1984. Macs of old were truly built like tanks and even now I have my vintage Macs like the SE/30 going strong. But more modern Macs are of a different level of quality.
Low quality Macs Apple won't fix (replacing a screen that has a delimitation problem with another screen that will potential have the same problem is no fix at all), coupled with gutted "pro" machines (read the caveat list above) makes me sick to my stomach. I want to continue to love my favorite computer maker, but what in the world is wrong with Apple? Why can't all that money, all those employees, and all that sheer brainpower produce a level of quality in their computers that matches the price? The previous poster said, "With Apple you get your money's worth." More than 10 years ago, I would have agreed. But as I've said, Macs in recent years are not necessarily one's that give you your money's worth. And it saddens me terribly to say that. Indeed, I want Apple to change that, while making it right with all the customers who have been plagued with problems.
Sorry for the rant. I'm just frustrated to tears.
Garbage.....
You could have stopped reading when he listed the lack of an illuminated logo as evidence that Apple isn't fulfilling a promise. When you see nonsense like this then you're dealing with a fashionista, not an Apple user.
For me, everything starts with price. It doesn't matter how great something is if I can't afford it. One of the most absurd comments I've heard on the subject is to save for longer. Sigh.
Next problem is what you get for the price. Again, it doesn't matter how great something is if you don't really need it. Some people love retina screens but I could get by easily with non retina. Same for soldered RAM/SSD. Once again, I could get by without the fastest options if flexibility were factored into the offer. The option to upgrade down the line is something I have always taken advantage of.
Thinness? This is probably a Jony Ive obsession which I can easily live without if accessibility and longer battery life are the end result. The previous line was already thin. Having the battery glued to the upper casing is something I could also do without and after repeated use in different stores I still dislike the keyboard.
Touch Bar and Touch ID? For the added cost that comes with it, I could easily do without both. At the end of the day they are convenience items. Nothing more.
So what we have is an expensive (no other word for it) base system that could easily cost far less and which you have to BTO at current Apple pricing pushing the price even higher.
I haven't bought a laptop for a few years now and my current upgraded Macs have new blood in them. I will not be buying into this line until prices come down and/or ugradeability is looked at with a new corporate perspective.
People will say something stupid like 'Apple doesn't cater to me'. That is irrelevant. Apple caters to sales. It seems clear that new MBP sales didn't fly off the charts. There was pent up demand and that was quenched. We will see what Apple does in the future if sales flatten out. After many people claiming the MBA was eol, that wasn't the case. Just as it wasn't the case that anything not USB-C was 'legacy'.
Apple put itself into a pigeon hole. If people are willing to buy into the sealed up, glued in, BTO at purchase, short warranty, expensive laptop, that's their decision. Mine is to pass.
The question is how many others pass or not.
Good that you pass you would not be happy with a Mac so go on to a different computer that won't last as long as a Apple computer. With Apple you get your money's worth.
You could have stopped reading when he mentioned price as his main driver, above quality. What you're dealing with here is someone who is outside Apple's demographic and so would be much happier buying a Dell machine. For some people, a superficial short-term saving is more important than longevity and build quality.
I've had one for a few months and I've noticed cracks around the keyboard housing. But it was much cheaper than the MacBook Pro that'll be replacing it as my main development machine.
Tim Cook himself has become a political activist of sorts for a tiny and arguably "insignificant" percentage of the population, standing in their defense.
There are indeed situations when Apple "owes."
and they are the most valuable company on the planet. These two things are not unrelated: Apple started building great all-around machines like the iMac, the Mac mini, and the iBook/MacBook Air/MacBook, and the (largely) PC-buying public responded by starting to switch. As Jobs himself said (paraphrasing), capturing even five percent of the PC-buying populace would double or triple Apple's revenues, and would barely register as a rounding error to Redmond. Turns out he was articulating Apple's strategy, and his plan worked exactly as described.
Nice try, but Apple is not the most valuable company on the planet because of the Mac. It's all because of the iPhone. Let's get real. I don't know the exact percentage, but Mac is a very small part of Apple's overall revenues.
It's not "very small": it was well over 10% in Q2 2017 (almost $6 billion out of $53 billion total revenue).
Apple's Mac business is the single most profitable personal computer brand in the world.
For me, everything starts with price. It doesn't matter how great something is if I can't afford it. One of the most absurd comments I've heard on the subject is to save for longer. Sigh.
Next problem is what you get for the price. Again, it doesn't matter how great something is if you don't really need it. Some people love retina screens but I could get by easily with non retina. Same for soldered RAM/SSD. Once again, I could get by without the fastest options if flexibility were factored into the offer. The option to upgrade down the line is something I have always taken advantage of.
Thinness? This is probably a Jony Ive obsession which I can easily live without if accessibility and longer battery life are the end result. The previous line was already thin. Having the battery glued to the upper casing is something I could also do without and after repeated use in different stores I still dislike the keyboard.
Touch Bar and Touch ID? For the added cost that comes with it, I could easily do without both. At the end of the day they are convenience items. Nothing more.
So what we have is an expensive (no other word for it) base system that could easily cost far less and which you have to BTO at current Apple pricing pushing the price even higher.
I haven't bought a laptop for a few years now and my current upgraded Macs have new blood in them. I will not be buying into this line until prices come down and/or ugradeability is looked at with a new corporate perspective.
People will say something stupid like 'Apple doesn't cater to me'. That is irrelevant. Apple caters to sales. It seems clear that new MBP sales didn't fly off the charts. There was pent up demand and that was quenched. We will see what Apple does in the future if sales flatten out. After many people claiming the MBA was eol, that wasn't the case. Just as it wasn't the case that anything not USB-C was 'legacy'.
Apple put itself into a pigeon hole. If people are willing to buy into the sealed up, glued in, BTO at purchase, short warranty, expensive laptop, that's their decision. Mine is to pass.
The question is how many others pass or not.
Good that you pass you would not be happy with a Mac so go on to a different computer that won't last as long as a Apple computer. With Apple you get your money's worth.
My previous MBP lasted 8 years and was far less expensive, even adjusting for inflation, so I'm not sure we are getting our money's worth (I did buy the late 2016 MBP, but I was very pissed at the high price.) There is no question that Apple is ripping us off on the SSD storage costs and I'm with those who think these machines should have removable storage, memory and battery. There is absolutely no reason why Apple couldn't have used standard SSD modules that were on a plug. None. (Except greed). Is anyone really going to maintain that the best way to build a machine is with a lot of glue? Really?
Without being able to upgrade memory and storage and change the battery, the machines don't "last as long" in terms of useful life and it belies Apple's commitment to being green, since the machines will wind up in the trash faster. (I went to a recycling fair recently and it was amazing what people were recycling: hundreds of computers (maybe thousands), both Macs and PCs). The only reason my previous late-2008 MBP lasted so long is because I was able to upgrade memory and storage and replace the battery. If that makes the machine a little thicker, so be it. Apple's (Ive's?) obsession with thinness and no lines in the case as opposed to all else borders on mental illness, IMO. It's like their obsession with the design of the iPhone which few people ever actually see because almost everyone keeps theirs in a case so it survives a fall.
Other than that, it is a very nice machine, but the touch pad is too large as part of my palms rest on it and sends the cursor to places I don't intend for it to go. This has radically slowed down my typing and I don't sense that the larger pad has any advantages. The touch pad drives me nuts and it's apparent to me that Apple did not test this larger touchpad with real users. It is not a natural position to rest the palms outside of the touchpad. Maybe Apple thinks that people type with their hands in the air without resting their palms. I, for one, don't. The TouchBar is almost worthless because your eyes don't naturally look there. It might have been better if it had been located right at the top edge.
The switch to USB-C didn't bother me, except for losing magsafe. Why people get so upset adding a dongle or adapter to a cable is strange to me. Just make believe it was always part of the cable. You can get adapters for as little as $4. People defend Apple when there are complaints that an equipped machine is $3K, but then they complain about a $4 adapter or $10 cable? Having said that, I do have one problem: I have a USB cable that goes to a USB speaker system. If I plug it in with the dongle attached, the system does not automatically switch to the speaker system. If I pull the USB-C out and plug it back in to the Mac, it still doesn't switch. But if I detach the USB-A from the adapter dongle and plug it back in to the adapter, it does switch. It's a minor annoyance, but still an annoyance as it requires two actions instead of one.
I totally agree on the glued together laptop that is not upgradable. That is perhaps the greatest thing stopping me from investing in a Mac.
Phone technology is progressing so rapidly and they get used so hard and portability is such an inherent feature, that replacing a phone every few years is not a problem. But, those conditions do not apply to a laptop - particularly one that cost 2, 3 or 4 times what a phone costs...
How long is it since IBM made a laptop? 10, 12 years? Well, the laptop I use for my finances (Thinkpad T60p) has the IBM logo on it and works pretty much perfectly... It boots quickly, responds quickly, I just installed a second drive in it for backups, the keyboard is absolutely outstanding and its OS, apps and antivirus are current. Through the years I not only upgraded the memory but even the WiFi card to 811-n and, of course, replaced the battery. I have thought about installing an SSD, but its quick enough now that I decided to save my money. To me, that is quality. A quality that Apple has never achieved (nor tried to achieve).
I suspect that Apple, in its laptop line is valuing portability over functionality. But, in my experience, most laptops are more stationary than mobile.
Tim Cook himself has become a political activist of sorts for a tiny and arguably "insignificant" percentage of the population, standing in their defense.
There are indeed situations when Apple "owes."
and they are the most valuable company on the planet. These two things are not unrelated: Apple started building great all-around machines like the iMac, the Mac mini, and the iBook/MacBook Air/MacBook, and the (largely) PC-buying public responded by starting to switch. As Jobs himself said (paraphrasing), capturing even five percent of the PC-buying populace would double or triple Apple's revenues, and would barely register as a rounding error to Redmond. Turns out he was articulating Apple's strategy, and his plan worked exactly as described.
Nice try, but Apple is not the most valuable company on the planet because of the Mac. It's all because of the iPhone. Let's get real. I don't know the exact percentage, but Mac is a very small part of Apple's overall revenues.
Yeah - the first sentence that you clipped out before your quoted part in your response spells that out. The percentage is about 12 percent of Apple's revenue.
@JDW, pork and brisket are excellent, thanks. Quick lunches for the work-week.
For me, everything starts with price. It doesn't matter how great something is if I can't afford it. One of the most absurd comments I've heard on the subject is to save for longer. Sigh.
Next problem is what you get for the price. Again, it doesn't matter how great something is if you don't really need it. Some people love retina screens but I could get by easily with non retina. Same for soldered RAM/SSD. Once again, I could get by without the fastest options if flexibility were factored into the offer. The option to upgrade down the line is something I have always taken advantage of.
Thinness? This is probably a Jony Ive obsession which I can easily live without if accessibility and longer battery life are the end result. The previous line was already thin. Having the battery glued to the upper casing is something I could also do without and after repeated use in different stores I still dislike the keyboard.
Touch Bar and Touch ID? For the added cost that comes with it, I could easily do without both. At the end of the day they are convenience items. Nothing more.
So what we have is an expensive (no other word for it) base system that could easily cost far less and which you have to BTO at current Apple pricing pushing the price even higher.
I haven't bought a laptop for a few years now and my current upgraded Macs have new blood in them. I will not be buying into this line until prices come down and/or ugradeability is looked at with a new corporate perspective.
People will say something stupid like 'Apple doesn't cater to me'. That is irrelevant. Apple caters to sales. It seems clear that new MBP sales didn't fly off the charts. There was pent up demand and that was quenched. We will see what Apple does in the future if sales flatten out. After many people claiming the MBA was eol, that wasn't the case. Just as it wasn't the case that anything not USB-C was 'legacy'.
Apple put itself into a pigeon hole. If people are willing to buy into the sealed up, glued in, BTO at purchase, short warranty, expensive laptop, that's their decision. Mine is to pass.
The question is how many others pass or not.
Good that you pass you would not be happy with a Mac so go on to a different computer that won't last as long as a Apple computer. With Apple you get your money's worth.
You could have stopped reading when he mentioned price as his main driver, above quality. What you're dealing with here is someone who is outside Apple's demographic and so would be much happier buying a Dell machine. For some people, a superficial short-term saving is more important than longevity and build quality.
I've had one for a few months and I've noticed cracks around the keyboard housing. But it was much cheaper than the MacBook Pro that'll be replacing it as my main development machine.
Longevity? Being non-upgradable because its all glued & soldered together, MBPs are very short on longevity. Actually, they fall more into the "planned obsolescence" realm...
While they offer some great features -- particularly power combined with portability, longevity is a weak point rather than a strong point.
First point, regarding Tim Cook: no, he's not a political activist for "a tiny and arguably 'insignificant' percentage of the population." He's a human rights advocate...
Second point, regarding Apple "owing": you're (willfully) misinterpreting what Mike has said. He's been clear in saying that Apple doesn't "owe" veteran customers machines that are exclusively geared to them...
Back in the 80s and early 90s when the majority of Mac buyers were "creative pros," Apple built machines that excelled at that. Today, that is a TINY percentage (well under 10 percent.
If Apple "owes" anyone, it's their shareholders...
No one can truly say what Tim Cook is other than Tim Cook himself, but the fact remains that he is a staunch defender of a small segment of the population because he himself is a part of that segment. It is a fact. Label it what you will, but I was speaking about specifics with regard to "percentages of the population" to make the point that numbers don't necessarily matter at Apple. Even Steve Jobs himself said that numerous times. It wasn't about being the biggest or making the most money. It was about a "core philosophy." Again, that is my point. My point was to steer us away from those cold, heartless "numbers," which don't always matter.
The person who started the use of the word "owe" was not me. That word was put into my mouth and I was merely trying to take it out. I did that by saying there are indeed times when Apple owes. If it is argued that I took words out of context, then I would argue my earlier words were taken out of context in that I never said "owe" in my opening post in this thread. End of story.
I already dealt with "creative pros" in my previous post, but based on your remarks I now should make it more clear. PEOPLE WITH THE MONEY AND DESIRE BUY MACS, EVEN MACS GEARED FOR AN AUDIENCE THAT WOULDN'T INCLUDE THEM.
It doesn't matter if you are a creative pro or a man on the moon. If you have cash and desire, you will buy whatever Mac you want. That was the point I was making in my previous post. It doesn't matter if Apple targets the Mac Pro at whom they deem "a pro." If I as a non-Pro want it and have the money, I shall buy it. Again, that is my point. So there is no reason to talk about creative pros or what Apple did in the past. My earlier post was about QUALITY and that transcends all the talk of creative pros and target audience. The fact remains Apple built their computers like tanks in the past and they lasted a very long time. It can be argued that has changed in recent years, for a variety of reasons, but that change is nevertheless a reality. (I speak of Macs, not iOS devices. In my experience, iOS devices are built rock solid.) But that doesn't mean we ought to throw up our hands and say, "Well, if they could make a better Mac in terms of quality, they would." Sometimes Apple needs a little prodding, and as I stated before, I do leave them such feedback on a regular basis. Yet others trying to force Apple to act using legal action, but I for one am staunchly against using the courts for that. And as to whether the removal of the SD card slot (which is used for supplementing storage too, BTW, not just for camera users), I stand by my earlier comments. Just because some of you, my highly respected fellow Mac users, don't need it doesn't mean no one needs it. And indeed, Apple thought people needed it for a very long time because it was in Apple notebooks for a long time. I could go on, but I spare you.
As to AAPL shareholders, I happen to be one. I first started buying AAPL in 1999 and have continued throughout they years, never selling a single share. As to what AAPL owes me, well, I lived a long time without dividends (prior to 2012), and you know what? I never though Apple owed me any dividends. Never. Again, I don't know where this "owing" thing came up, but let's dispense with it, please!
All I did is express disappointment with the 2016 and now 2017 rMBP 15", then spoke of quality citing two examples from my own Mac collection, and then I received a brow-beating by my fellow Apple/Mac lovers. (But despite that, I hold no animosity toward any of you. We can agree to disagree.) That is why I said "empathy" and "love of one's fellow man" is what we need the most. I stand by those words.
- - - -
Mike W., thanks for letting me know about the pork and brisket. Your post reminded me that I need fire up the BBQ this weekend.
In November this year we will be able to start gauging out of warranty failures and how people feel about them. We will also be able to compare MBP and BTO pricing of last year with this year's and evaluate if it was a good deal to pay between 3,000-5,000 dollars for a three to five year investment. I'm sure that some users would have preferred to wait for this refresh if they had known it was coming. And to think people were insisting that the incorporation of the newest processors would only produce minimal gains. In the end, this refresh has seen enough gains to make some rethink their decisions.
So much bullshit, so little time.
Apple has never let people down on warranties. If there is a design problem (not seeing one so far), Apple will extend warranties for these issues as they always do.
And clearly, this update does only provide minimal gains – with real work, they are not even noticeable, unless your work is running benchmarks.
Fact is, I have been using the now previous model 10-12 hours every day since it came out and made several times its price using it. Do I rethink my decision? Fuck, no.
First point, regarding Tim Cook: no, he's not a political activist for "a tiny and arguably 'insignificant' percentage of the population." He's a human rights advocate...
Second point, regarding Apple "owing": you're (willfully) misinterpreting what Mike has said. He's been clear in saying that Apple doesn't "owe" veteran customers machines that are exclusively geared to them...
Back in the 80s and early 90s when the majority of Mac buyers were "creative pros," Apple built machines that excelled at that. Today, that is a TINY percentage (well under 10 percent.
If Apple "owes" anyone, it's their shareholders...
No one can truly say what Tim Cook is other than Tim Cook himself, but the fact remains that he is a staunch defender of a small segment of the population because he himself is a part of that segment. It is a fact. Label it what you will, but I was speaking about specifics with regard to "percentages of the population" to make the point that numbers don't necessarily matter at Apple. Even Steve Jobs himself said that numerous times. It wasn't about being the biggest or making the most money. It was about a "core philosophy." Again, that is my point. My point was to steer us away from those cold, heartless "numbers," which don't always matter.
The person who started the use of the word "owe" was not me. That word was put into my mouth and I was merely trying to take it out. I did that by saying there are indeed times when Apple owes. If it is argued that I took words out of context, then I would argue my earlier words were taken out of context in that I never said "owe" in my opening post in this thread. End of story.
I already dealt with "creative pros" in my previous post, but based on your remarks I now should make it more clear. PEOPLE WITH THE MONEY AND DESIRE BUY MACS, EVEN MACS GEARED FOR AN AUDIENCE THAT WOULDN'T INCLUDE THEM.
It doesn't matter if you are a creative pro or a man on the moon. If you have cash and desire, you will buy whatever Mac you want. That was the point I was making in my previous post. It doesn't matter if Apple targets the Mac Pro at whom they deem "a pro." If I as a non-Pro want it and have the money, I shall buy it. Again, that is my point. So there is no reason to talk about creative pros or what Apple did in the past. My earlier post was about QUALITY and that transcends all the talk of creative pros and target audience. The fact remains Apple built their computers like tanks in the past and they lasted a very long time. It can be argued that has changed in recent years, for a variety of reasons, but that change is nevertheless a reality. (I speak of Macs, not iOS devices. In my experience, iOS devices are built rock solid.) But that doesn't mean we ought to throw up our hands and say, "Well, if they could make a better Mac in terms of quality, they would." Sometimes Apple needs a little prodding, and as I stated before, I do leave them such feedback on a regular basis. Yet others trying to force Apple to act using legal action, but I for one am staunchly against using the courts for that. And as to whether the removal of the SD card slot (which is used for supplementing storage too, BTW, not just for camera users), I stand by my earlier comments. Just because some of you, my highly respected fellow Mac users, don't need it doesn't mean no one needs it. And indeed, Apple thought people needed it for a very long time because it was in Apple notebooks for a long time. I could go on, but I spare you.
As to AAPL shareholders, I happen to be one. I first started buying AAPL in 1999 and have continued throughout they years, never selling a single share. As to what AAPL owes me, well, I lived a long time without dividends (prior to 2012), and you know what? I never though Apple owed me any dividends. Never. Again, I don't know where this "owing" thing came up, but let's dispense with it, please!
All I did is express disappointment with the 2016 and now 2017 rMBP 15", then spoke of quality citing two examples from my own Mac collection, and then I received a brow-beating by my fellow Apple/Mac lovers. (But despite that, I hold no animosity toward any of you. We can agree to disagree.) That is why I said "empathy" and "love of one's fellow man" is what we need the most. I stand by those words.
- - - -
Mike W., thanks for letting me know about the pork and brisket. Your post reminded me that I need fire up the BBQ this weekend.
The 'brow beating' is just a select few who, for some reason, feel the need to label people and if they think you are bad mouthing their baby, out come the pitchforks and torches but remember they have their opinions too so just be a little thick skinned and ride over it.
Likewise, it's your opinion. It's as valid as anyone else's, so voice it if you want and defend it if you have the energy but don't let negative comments get to you. There are far more people that read your comments than respond to them and many of them might agree with you although that's pretty irrelevant per se.
Feedback to Apple is all well and good but it is a one way street, a black hole and not public. Places like this and hundreds more are where you can get a real feel of opinion at street level. Apple actually keeps an eye on the internet and what people say and when it's said in public it resonates further so if you have an opinion, speak it and don't worry about what others think or say.
Why not tell the full story? MacBook Pro is great (albeit expensive), but Apple should use standard ports and connectors, not soldered proprietary components. Apple should allow to use custom SSD for instance, like the awesome Samsung 960 PRO SSD. Besides not charging two to three times more for them, as now does with iMac RAM, for instance when compared to market price at sites like Amazon. Do not get me wrong. I love the Mac, but Apple does not do it right sometimes. And this is a positive criticism to make happy customers and boost market share.
What planet are you from? Because here on earth, USBC is a standard port.
And comparing MBP components with Amazon crap is rich. As if.
Lastly, you seem to be routinely asking for installable DIY components in the slimmest, lightest, most power efficient, longest lasting notebooks on our planet – not going to happen. Ever. Just stop. Buy a Dell.
I meant the SSD connector. You cannot install Samsung 960 PRO SSD for instance, which is better and cheaper from sites like Amazon. On the other side, you did not get it. What I like most of Mac is macOS. The problem with Apple is that it is a monopoly internally. All these problems would go if there were Mac clones.
Why not tell the full story? MacBook Pro is great (albeit expensive), but Apple should use standard ports and connectors, not soldered proprietary components. Apple should allow to use custom SSD for instance, like the awesome Samsung 960 PRO SSD. Besides not charging two to three times more for them, as now does with iMac RAM, for instance when compared to market price at sites like Amazon. Do not get me wrong. I love the Mac, but Apple does not do it right sometimes. And this is a positive criticism to make happy customers and boost market share.
By your logic in this post Apple NEVER does anything right. And taking your “requirements” into mind why would you buy any Apple product? So no, you don’t love the Mac.
Apple does many things right. Starting with macOS (albeit it could be clearly improved, sometimes not removing useful productive features like colored names in Finder, arrowheads in scrolls, customizable Command F searches that do not have "Kind - Any" by default but "Name - Contains", etc). See my comment above.
”There’s absolutely no reason Apple couldn’t make the battery, SSD, or RAM user replaceable except greed.”
Oh really, Einstein?
Have you looked into the specs for how these high-speed components integrate? Because there are no other options. Have you looked into the physical forces exerted on a laptop that would necessitate repair due to socket failure? How about the electrical components that create heat and consume more power? What about thermal design inside of the space?
Oh and if the battery wasn’t the entire insides of the laptop, it would have like 2-3 hours of battery life. Battery technology has improved to a point where the battery will continue to operate in the machines foreseeable useful lifecycle. There’s no need to make it replaceable. None. Just get an external battery pack with USB-C and charge up.
The fact is that Apple employees thousands of people who figure out what the market wants and designs to those specs. You’re a tiny fraction of the market. They’ve determined (as well as other companies) that people want a laptop that is portable (surprise) and gets certain levels of battery life. They want a great screen.
Now many of the gripes I’ve seen have more to do with modern PC architecture (Intel) than Apple. No you can’t have socketed RAM in these newer designs and achieve the same power/performance ratio. Oh and USB-C? That’s a standard and it’s a wonderful port. You should get onboard. Yes I have one single and use one every now and then, but the future of a single interconnect that is almost unlimited in its power and speed is worth the temporary inconvenience.
Why not tell the full story? MacBook Pro is great (albeit expensive), but Apple should use standard ports and connectors, not soldered proprietary components. Apple should allow to use custom SSD for instance, like the awesome Samsung 960 PRO SSD. Besides not charging two to three times more for them, as now does with iMac RAM, for instance when compared to market price at sites like Amazon. Do not get me wrong. I love the Mac, but Apple does not do it right sometimes. And this is a positive criticism to make happy customers and boost market share.
What planet are you from? Because here on earth, USBC is a standard port.
And comparing MBP components with Amazon crap is rich. As if.
Lastly, you seem to be routinely asking for installable DIY components in the slimmest, lightest, most power efficient, longest lasting notebooks on our planet – not going to happen. Ever. Just stop. Buy a Dell.
I meant the SSD connector. You cannot install Samsung 960 PRO SSD for instance, which is better and cheaper from sites like Amazon. On the other side, you did not get it. What I like most of Mac is macOS. The problem with Apple is that it is a monopoly internally. All these problems would go if there were Mac clones.
The 960 pro is cheaper. It is not better. It also draws about 3W of power while it runs, where it looks like the Apple drive pulls about 1.2W.
Want to know how I know? I have a Hackintosh with one. It's half the speed of the drive in the MBP, both in Windows and in macOS.
I'm also doing research on a story about service rates over time. The story's not told yet, as I only have data from the last two years, and from 2000-2002. but the Mac failure rates from 2015-2017 are about one quarter of what they were in 2000-2002, with the average age of machines brought in for service younger in 2000-2002 at about 14 months, versus now at about 20 months. The data suggests that the sealed gear is LESS prone to failure, not MORE crying out for user repair.
Also, based on some previous polling I did last year, the number of users who have the skill to do upgrades are right around one percent of all Mac users. I'll be repeating this as well at some point.
There is no massive, nascent user base awaiting upgradeable macs.
Again, I get that we here in the AI forums might like it, but don't confuse a concentration of stand-out users in one place as "the entire user base." If I can figure this out, then so can Apple, and I'm sure they're going to make the choice to appeal to 99% of their user base with lower failure rates, and longer battery life than the 1% who might say otherwise.
I don't seem to reed it in this article. Is this a winner, or is it an OK laptop for a very high price?
Neither.
It's still crap in a lot of ways, there's still a 16GB RAM limit, the SSD and RAM are still soldered, the battery is still glued, the keyboard is still awful, the graphics chip is still wimpy. Oh, and it's overpriced.
This is not a significant upgrade from the 2012 MBP, and in many ways it's a downgrade.
I'm not saying it's the wrong laptop for everybody, but this really should be called the MacBook Executive, because it's not a pro machine, but it's great for VP types.
Nonsense. I'm a software dev pro (per Craig they believe most pro customers are), and this new portable suits me perfectly -- thin, light, power efficient, powerful. Id link you to articles showing that 16gb is very adequate for running the apps I run (xcode VMware etc) but it gets tiresome to post the same stuff over and over.
Its a great laptop. But the whining will never cease, because...well Apple.
For me, everything starts with price. It doesn't matter how great something is if I can't afford it. One of the most absurd comments I've heard on the subject is to save for longer. Sigh.
Next problem is what you get for the price. Again, it doesn't matter how great something is if you don't really need it. Some people love retina screens but I could get by easily with non retina. Same for soldered RAM/SSD. Once again, I could get by without the fastest options if flexibility were factored into the offer. The option to upgrade down the line is something I have always taken advantage of.
Thinness? This is probably a Jony Ive obsession which I can easily live without if accessibility and longer battery life are the end result. The previous line was already thin. Having the battery glued to the upper casing is something I could also do without and after repeated use in different stores I still dislike the keyboard.
Touch Bar and Touch ID? For the added cost that comes with it, I could easily do without both. At the end of the day they are convenience items. Nothing more.
So what we have is an expensive (no other word for it) base system that could easily cost far less and which you have to BTO at current Apple pricing pushing the price even higher.
I haven't bought a laptop for a few years now and my current upgraded Macs have new blood in them. I will not be buying into this line until prices come down and/or ugradeability is looked at with a new corporate perspective.
People will say something stupid like 'Apple doesn't cater to me'. That is irrelevant. Apple caters to sales. It seems clear that new MBP sales didn't fly off the charts. There was pent up demand and that was quenched. We will see what Apple does in the future if sales flatten out. After many people claiming the MBA was eol, that wasn't the case. Just as it wasn't the case that anything not USB-C was 'legacy'.
Apple put itself into a pigeon hole. If people are willing to buy into the sealed up, glued in, BTO at purchase, short warranty, expensive laptop, that's their decision. Mine is to pass.
The question is how many others pass or not.
Good that you pass you would not be happy with a Mac so go on to a different computer that won't last as long as a Apple computer. With Apple you get your money's worth.
You could have stopped reading when he mentioned price as his main driver, above quality. What you're dealing with here is someone who is outside Apple's demographic and so would be much happier buying a Dell machine. For some people, a superficial short-term saving is more important than longevity and build quality.
I've had one for a few months and I've noticed cracks around the keyboard housing. But it was much cheaper than the MacBook Pro that'll be replacing it as my main development machine.
Longevity? Being non-upgradable because its all glued & soldered together, MBPs are very short on longevity. Actually, they fall more into the "planned obsolescence" realm...
While they offer some great features -- particularly power combined with portability, longevity is a weak point rather than a strong point.
Nonsense. You're pretending as if if non user upgradble means not serviceable. It doesn't. You'll be able to get it repaired for years to come if need be.
Apple gear has the longest useful lifespan with the highest resale values. That's the opposite of planned obsolescence inspires you theory nonsense.
First point, regarding Tim Cook: no, he's not a political activist for "a tiny and arguably 'insignificant' percentage of the population." He's a human rights advocate...
Second point, regarding Apple "owing": you're (willfully) misinterpreting what Mike has said. He's been clear in saying that Apple doesn't "owe" veteran customers machines that are exclusively geared to them...
Back in the 80s and early 90s when the majority of Mac buyers were "creative pros," Apple built machines that excelled at that. Today, that is a TINY percentage (well under 10 percent.
If Apple "owes" anyone, it's their shareholders...
No one can truly say what Tim Cook is other than Tim Cook himself, but the fact remains that he is a staunch defender of a small segment of the population because he himself is a part of that segment. It is a fact. Label it what you will, but I was speaking about specifics with regard to "percentages of the population" to make the point that numbers don't necessarily matter at Apple. Even Steve Jobs himself said that numerous times. It wasn't about being the biggest or making the most money. It was about a "core philosophy." Again, that is my point. My point was to steer us away from those cold, heartless "numbers," which don't always matter.
The person who started the use of the word "owe" was not me. That word was put into my mouth and I was merely trying to take it out. I did that by saying there are indeed times when Apple owes. If it is argued that I took words out of context, then I would argue my earlier words were taken out of context in that I never said "owe" in my opening post in this thread. End of story.
I already dealt with "creative pros" in my previous post, but based on your remarks I now should make it more clear. PEOPLE WITH THE MONEY AND DESIRE BUY MACS, EVEN MACS GEARED FOR AN AUDIENCE THAT WOULDN'T INCLUDE THEM.
It doesn't matter if you are a creative pro or a man on the moon. If you have cash and desire, you will buy whatever Mac you want. That was the point I was making in my previous post. It doesn't matter if Apple targets the Mac Pro at whom they deem "a pro." If I as a non-Pro want it and have the money, I shall buy it. Again, that is my point. So there is no reason to talk about creative pros or what Apple did in the past. My earlier post was about QUALITY and that transcends all the talk of creative pros and target audience. The fact remains Apple built their computers like tanks in the past and they lasted a very long time. It can be argued that has changed in recent years, for a variety of reasons, but that change is nevertheless a reality. (I speak of Macs, not iOS devices. In my experience, iOS devices are built rock solid.) But that doesn't mean we ought to throw up our hands and say, "Well, if they could make a better Mac in terms of quality, they would." Sometimes Apple needs a little prodding, and as I stated before, I do leave them such feedback on a regular basis. Yet others trying to force Apple to act using legal action, but I for one am staunchly against using the courts for that. And as to whether the removal of the SD card slot (which is used for supplementing storage too, BTW, not just for camera users), I stand by my earlier comments. Just because some of you, my highly respected fellow Mac users, don't need it doesn't mean no one needs it. And indeed, Apple thought people needed it for a very long time because it was in Apple notebooks for a long time. I could go on, but I spare you.
As to AAPL shareholders, I happen to be one. I first started buying AAPL in 1999 and have continued throughout they years, never selling a single share. As to what AAPL owes me, well, I lived a long time without dividends (prior to 2012), and you know what? I never though Apple owed me any dividends. Never. Again, I don't know where this "owing" thing came up, but let's dispense with it, please!
All I did is express disappointment with the 2016 and now 2017 rMBP 15", then spoke of quality citing two examples from my own Mac collection, and then I received a brow-beating by my fellow Apple/Mac lovers. (But despite that, I hold no animosity toward any of you. We can agree to disagree.) That is why I said "empathy" and "love of one's fellow man" is what we need the most. I stand by those words.
- - - -
Mike W., thanks for letting me know about the pork and brisket. Your post reminded me that I need fire up the BBQ this weekend.
The 'brow beating' is just a select few who, for some reason, feel the need to label people and if they think you are bad mouthing their baby, out come the pitchforks and torches but remember they have their opinions too so just be a little thick skinned and ride over it.
Likewise, it's your opinion. It's as valid as anyone else's, so voice it if you want and defend it if you have the energy but don't let negative comments get to you. There are far more people that read your comments than respond to them and many of them might agree with you although that's pretty irrelevant per se.
Feedback to Apple is all well and good but it is a one way street, a black hole and not public. Places like this and hundreds more are where you can get a real feel of opinion at street level. Apple actually keeps an eye on the internet and what people say and when it's said in public it resonates further so if you have an opinion, speak it and don't worry about what others think or say.
No, Apple doesn't design based on the forum posts on AI.
But it even if they did, the likes on the posts saying this is a great machine for its intended use cases far outweigh the likes on the whining. Seems the whiner opinion is in the minority, even here.
I personally like the decisions Apple makes on its gear and think they'll continue to be successful and lead the industry.
Comments
@JDW, pork and brisket are excellent, thanks. Quick lunches for the work-week.
Apple's Mac business is the single most profitable personal computer brand in the world.
Great for VP types? Do us all a favour, get lost.
I've had one for a few months and I've noticed cracks around the keyboard housing. But it was much cheaper than the MacBook Pro that'll be replacing it as my main development machine.
Phone technology is progressing so rapidly and they get used so hard and portability is such an inherent feature, that replacing a phone every few years is not a problem. But, those conditions do not apply to a laptop - particularly one that cost 2, 3 or 4 times what a phone costs...
How long is it since IBM made a laptop? 10, 12 years? Well, the laptop I use for my finances (Thinkpad T60p) has the IBM logo on it and works pretty much perfectly... It boots quickly, responds quickly, I just installed a second drive in it for backups, the keyboard is absolutely outstanding and its OS, apps and antivirus are current. Through the years I not only upgraded the memory but even the WiFi card to 811-n and, of course, replaced the battery. I have thought about installing an SSD, but its quick enough now that I decided to save my money. To me, that is quality. A quality that Apple has never achieved (nor tried to achieve).
I suspect that Apple, in its laptop line is valuing portability over functionality. But, in my experience, most laptops are more stationary than mobile.
Being non-upgradable because its all glued & soldered together, MBPs are very short on longevity. Actually, they fall more into the "planned obsolescence" realm...
While they offer some great features -- particularly power combined with portability, longevity is a weak point rather than a strong point.
The person who started the use of the word "owe" was not me. That word was put into my mouth and I was merely trying to take it out. I did that by saying there are indeed times when Apple owes. If it is argued that I took words out of context, then I would argue my earlier words were taken out of context in that I never said "owe" in my opening post in this thread. End of story.
I already dealt with "creative pros" in my previous post, but based on your remarks I now should make it more clear. PEOPLE WITH THE MONEY AND DESIRE BUY MACS, EVEN MACS GEARED FOR AN AUDIENCE THAT WOULDN'T INCLUDE THEM.
It doesn't matter if you are a creative pro or a man on the moon. If you have cash and desire, you will buy whatever Mac you want. That was the point I was making in my previous post. It doesn't matter if Apple targets the Mac Pro at whom they deem "a pro." If I as a non-Pro want it and have the money, I shall buy it. Again, that is my point. So there is no reason to talk about creative pros or what Apple did in the past. My earlier post was about QUALITY and that transcends all the talk of creative pros and target audience. The fact remains Apple built their computers like tanks in the past and they lasted a very long time. It can be argued that has changed in recent years, for a variety of reasons, but that change is nevertheless a reality. (I speak of Macs, not iOS devices. In my experience, iOS devices are built rock solid.) But that doesn't mean we ought to throw up our hands and say, "Well, if they could make a better Mac in terms of quality, they would." Sometimes Apple needs a little prodding, and as I stated before, I do leave them such feedback on a regular basis. Yet others trying to force Apple to act using legal action, but I for one am staunchly against using the courts for that. And as to whether the removal of the SD card slot (which is used for supplementing storage too, BTW, not just for camera users), I stand by my earlier comments. Just because some of you, my highly respected fellow Mac users, don't need it doesn't mean no one needs it. And indeed, Apple thought people needed it for a very long time because it was in Apple notebooks for a long time. I could go on, but I spare you.
As to AAPL shareholders, I happen to be one. I first started buying AAPL in 1999 and have continued throughout they years, never selling a single share. As to what AAPL owes me, well, I lived a long time without dividends (prior to 2012), and you know what? I never though Apple owed me any dividends. Never. Again, I don't know where this "owing" thing came up, but let's dispense with it, please!
All I did is express disappointment with the 2016 and now 2017 rMBP 15", then spoke of quality citing two examples from my own Mac collection, and then I received a brow-beating by my fellow Apple/Mac lovers. (But despite that, I hold no animosity toward any of you. We can agree to disagree.) That is why I said "empathy" and "love of one's fellow man" is what we need the most. I stand by those words.
- - - -
Mike W., thanks for letting me know about the pork and brisket. Your post reminded me that I need fire up the BBQ this weekend.
Likewise, it's your opinion. It's as valid as anyone else's, so voice it if you want and defend it if you have the energy but don't let negative comments get to you. There are far more people that read your comments than respond to them and many of them might agree with you although that's pretty irrelevant per se.
Feedback to Apple is all well and good but it is a one way street, a black hole and not public. Places like this and hundreds more are where you can get a real feel of opinion at street level. Apple actually keeps an eye on the internet and what people say and when it's said in public it resonates further so if you have an opinion, speak it and don't worry about what others think or say.
”There’s absolutely no reason Apple couldn’t make the battery, SSD, or RAM user replaceable except greed.”
Oh really, Einstein?
Have you looked into the specs for how these high-speed components integrate? Because there are no other options. Have you looked into the physical forces exerted on a laptop that would necessitate repair due to socket failure? How about the electrical components that create heat and consume more power? What about thermal design inside of the space?
Oh and if the battery wasn’t the entire insides of the laptop, it would have like 2-3 hours of battery life. Battery technology has improved to a point where the battery will continue to operate in the machines foreseeable useful lifecycle. There’s no need to make it replaceable. None. Just get an external battery pack with USB-C and charge up.
The fact is that Apple employees thousands of people who figure out what the market wants and designs to those specs. You’re a tiny fraction of the market. They’ve determined (as well as other companies) that people want a laptop that is portable (surprise) and gets certain levels of battery life. They want a great screen.
Now many of the gripes I’ve seen have more to do with modern PC architecture (Intel) than Apple. No you can’t have socketed RAM in these newer designs and achieve the same power/performance ratio. Oh and USB-C? That’s a standard and it’s a wonderful port. You should get onboard. Yes I have one single and use one every now and then, but the future of a single interconnect that is almost unlimited in its power and speed is worth the temporary inconvenience.
A salad it ain't. It also isn't McDonalds.
Its a great laptop. But the whining will never cease, because...well Apple.
Apple gear has the longest useful lifespan with the highest resale values. That's the opposite of planned obsolescence inspires you theory nonsense.
But it even if they did, the likes on the posts saying this is a great machine for its intended use cases far outweigh the likes on the whining. Seems the whiner opinion is in the minority, even here.
I personally like the decisions Apple makes on its gear and think they'll continue to be successful and lead the industry.