Apple's iPhone 7 & 7 Plus top Q2 smartphone market, beating Samsung's Galaxy S8

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 40
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 7,314member
    avon b7 said:

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    This was also in the news recently but not picked up here. LOL:

    uk.businessinsider.com/huawei-could-overtake-apple-second-biggest-smartphone-canalys-data-2017-8

    I personally think there will be a supercycle and that is great because, if there is one, it shows at the very least, Apple is not losing users...

    ...Competition is good.

    Apple does not compete at the bottom end. Those who make or sell the most smartphones and those who make the most profitable and high end smartphones are two entirely separate entities.
    This article is based on Q2 data.

    Take a look at some Q1 data:

    www.counterpointresearch.com/afforadable-smartphones-increase-q1-2017/

    That huge increase in the affordable premium  is where the action was, not the bottom end. And that is where Apple doesn't really operate.

    Year on year, Apple is flat (see link in previous post). The pack is closing in on second position. In fact, in some regions Apple has already been bumped down the pecking order.

    Apple and Huawei are slugging it out in major European markets. Q2 saw Huawei take the round:

    https://www.canalys.com/newsroom/huawei-overtakes-apple-cee-xiaomi-rockets-top-five

    In some countries in Europe Huawei is consistently topping Apple:

    "According a GfK report, as of December 2016, Huawei’s North-East Europe market share surpassed 20%, while in Western Europe it reached nearly 15%. Its market share in has topped 20% in many European countries, including Finland, Holland, Belgium, Poland, Spain, Italy and the Czech Republic. For the Western Europe and North-east Europe markets, sales revenue and shipments continue to increase by nearly 100% year-on-year and are expected to maintain strong momentum."

    That was from the horse's mouth so take it at face value.

    www.huawei.com/en/news/2017/4/2017HAS-showcases-strong-growth

    I think Android in Spain is touching 80 or even 90%. Apple is suffering in some regions. Of course one of the biggest areas where it is not suffering is the US. If Huawei does get a carrier deal you can bet they won't be pushing bottom end phones.

    Yes, Huawei also makes low end phones but that isn't where its growth has been. In fact it has decided to pull out of the low end. Not because it doesn't make money there, it just doesn't make enough.

    This article makes it pretty clear that the bottom end isn't where Huawei is generating success:

    https://www.mobileworldlive.com/asia/asia-news/huawei-to-pull-out-of-low-end-smartphone-market/

    As for profits, I saw some numbers the other day that seemed to indicate that Apple was raking in 10% less of handset profits than at the end of 2016, probably as a result of what I just outlined: competitors are squaring up to Apple at the high end but also filling the affordable premium segment with quality phones, that are also profitable.

    We will soon have one iPhone refresh to take us full circle through to September 2018. A long year. That's a lot of weight to carry when, out of the gate, your competitors will also be releasing new hardware head on. Then there will be another wave for MWC 2018 another four months after that.

    Apple has to repeat what it has managed to do this year (largely on the back of the the Plus iPhones).

    The next refresh, plus iPhone 8 (or whatever it is called) might do the trick. Huawei might implode, there might be component shortages across the board. I don't know.

    What I do know is that there is a lot of anti Android talk that is not based on much real information at all. It's often the same codswallop that gets served up again and a again.

    What counts is competition. That is what we have. That can only be good for consumers.
    Funny, Apple’s demise is always next year. 
    No one mentioned 'demise' (or even doomed! LOL). You only need to read the post I was referring to to see the context.

    Of course, if there is anything factually wrong in what I said, I'm sure you'll set me straight.
    I think you’re being coy. You clearly suggested the cheap knockoff brands will soon be a serious threat to Apple. this is the exact same story we’ve heard from supporters of Knockoff Brand X every year. still waiting. 

    As for Huawei, no brand with a name most Americans can’t even pronounce by sight is going to be a domestic threat to the premium brand and ecosystem that is Apple. 
    edited August 2017
  • Reply 22 of 40
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,656member
    avon b7 said:

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    This was also in the news recently but not picked up here. LOL:

    uk.businessinsider.com/huawei-could-overtake-apple-second-biggest-smartphone-canalys-data-2017-8

    I personally think there will be a supercycle and that is great because, if there is one, it shows at the very least, Apple is not losing users...

    ...Competition is good.

    Apple does not compete at the bottom end. Those who make or sell the most smartphones and those who make the most profitable and high end smartphones are two entirely separate entities.
    This article is based on Q2 data.

    Take a look at some Q1 data:

    www.counterpointresearch.com/afforadable-smartphones-increase-q1-2017/

    That huge increase in the affordable premium  is where the action was, not the bottom end. And that is where Apple doesn't really operate.

    Year on year, Apple is flat (see link in previous post). The pack is closing in on second position. In fact, in some regions Apple has already been bumped down the pecking order.

    Apple and Huawei are slugging it out in major European markets. Q2 saw Huawei take the round:

    https://www.canalys.com/newsroom/huawei-overtakes-apple-cee-xiaomi-rockets-top-five

    In some countries in Europe Huawei is consistently topping Apple:

    "According a GfK report, as of December 2016, Huawei’s North-East Europe market share surpassed 20%, while in Western Europe it reached nearly 15%. Its market share in has topped 20% in many European countries, including Finland, Holland, Belgium, Poland, Spain, Italy and the Czech Republic. For the Western Europe and North-east Europe markets, sales revenue and shipments continue to increase by nearly 100% year-on-year and are expected to maintain strong momentum."

    That was from the horse's mouth so take it at face value.

    www.huawei.com/en/news/2017/4/2017HAS-showcases-strong-growth

    I think Android in Spain is touching 80 or even 90%. Apple is suffering in some regions. Of course one of the biggest areas where it is not suffering is the US. If Huawei does get a carrier deal you can bet they won't be pushing bottom end phones.

    Yes, Huawei also makes low end phones but that isn't where its growth has been. In fact it has decided to pull out of the low end. Not because it doesn't make money there, it just doesn't make enough.

    This article makes it pretty clear that the bottom end isn't where Huawei is generating success:

    https://www.mobileworldlive.com/asia/asia-news/huawei-to-pull-out-of-low-end-smartphone-market/

    As for profits, I saw some numbers the other day that seemed to indicate that Apple was raking in 10% less of handset profits than at the end of 2016, probably as a result of what I just outlined: competitors are squaring up to Apple at the high end but also filling the affordable premium segment with quality phones, that are also profitable.

    We will soon have one iPhone refresh to take us full circle through to September 2018. A long year. That's a lot of weight to carry when, out of the gate, your competitors will also be releasing new hardware head on. Then there will be another wave for MWC 2018 another four months after that.

    Apple has to repeat what it has managed to do this year (largely on the back of the the Plus iPhones).

    The next refresh, plus iPhone 8 (or whatever it is called) might do the trick. Huawei might implode, there might be component shortages across the board. I don't know.

    What I do know is that there is a lot of anti Android talk that is not based on much real information at all. It's often the same codswallop that gets served up again and a again.

    What counts is competition. That is what we have. That can only be good for consumers.
    Funny, Apple’s demise is always next year. 
    No one mentioned 'demise' (or even doomed! LOL). You only need to read the post I was referring to to see the context.

    Of course, if there is anything factually wrong in what I said, I'm sure you'll set me straight.
    I think you’re being coy. You clearly suggested the cheap knockoff brands will soon be a serious threat to Apple. this is the exact same story we’ve heard from supporters of Knockoff Brand X every year. still waiting. 

    As for Huawei, no brand with a name most Americans can’t even pronounce by sight is going to be a domestic threat to the premium brand and ecosystem that is Apple. 
    LOL

    I was actually going to congratulate you on not using the word 'knock-off' but you just blew it. I guess it's something you can't control now.

    I was just responding to a post  and filling in the bigger picture with some real information.

    As for Huawei not being a US domestic threat, I suggest you read this:

    http://fortune.com/huawei-china-smartphone/

    A threat it certainly is. If they take off in the US I don't know - and neither do you.

    I'm sure the affluent iPhone touting public of Finland thought exactly the same as you not so long ago.

    Now 'Huawei' rolls off the tongue as easy as Nokia in most of the world. I'm sure the people in the US won't have that many problems pronouncing it.


    edited August 2017
  • Reply 23 of 40
    avon b7 said:

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    This was also in the news recently but not picked up here. LOL:

    uk.businessinsider.com/huawei-could-overtake-apple-second-biggest-smartphone-canalys-data-2017-8

    I personally think there will be a supercycle and that is great because, if there is one, it shows at the very least, Apple is not losing users...

    ...Competition is good.

    Apple does not compete at the bottom end. Those who make or sell the most smartphones and those who make the most profitable and high end smartphones are two entirely separate entities.
    This article is based on Q2 data.

    Take a look at some Q1 data:

    www.counterpointresearch.com/afforadable-smartphones-increase-q1-2017/

    That huge increase in the affordable premium  is where the action was, not the bottom end. And that is where Apple doesn't really operate.

    Year on year, Apple is flat (see link in previous post). The pack is closing in on second position. In fact, in some regions Apple has already been bumped down the pecking order.

    Apple and Huawei are slugging it out in major European markets. Q2 saw Huawei take the round:

    https://www.canalys.com/newsroom/huawei-overtakes-apple-cee-xiaomi-rockets-top-five

    In some countries in Europe Huawei is consistently topping Apple:

    "According a GfK report, as of December 2016, Huawei’s North-East Europe market share surpassed 20%, while in Western Europe it reached nearly 15%. Its market share in has topped 20% in many European countries, including Finland, Holland, Belgium, Poland, Spain, Italy and the Czech Republic. For the Western Europe and North-east Europe markets, sales revenue and shipments continue to increase by nearly 100% year-on-year and are expected to maintain strong momentum."

    That was from the horse's mouth so take it at face value.

    www.huawei.com/en/news/2017/4/2017HAS-showcases-strong-growth

    I think Android in Spain is touching 80 or even 90%. Apple is suffering in some regions. Of course one of the biggest areas where it is not suffering is the US. If Huawei does get a carrier deal you can bet they won't be pushing bottom end phones.

    Yes, Huawei also makes low end phones but that isn't where its growth has been. In fact it has decided to pull out of the low end. Not because it doesn't make money there, it just doesn't make enough.

    This article makes it pretty clear that the bottom end isn't where Huawei is generating success:

    https://www.mobileworldlive.com/asia/asia-news/huawei-to-pull-out-of-low-end-smartphone-market/

    As for profits, I saw some numbers the other day that seemed to indicate that Apple was raking in 10% less of handset profits than at the end of 2016, probably as a result of what I just outlined: competitors are squaring up to Apple at the high end but also filling the affordable premium segment with quality phones, that are also profitable.

    We will soon have one iPhone refresh to take us full circle through to September 2018. A long year. That's a lot of weight to carry when, out of the gate, your competitors will also be releasing new hardware head on. Then there will be another wave for MWC 2018 another four months after that.

    Apple has to repeat what it has managed to do this year (largely on the back of the the Plus iPhones).

    The next refresh, plus iPhone 8 (or whatever it is called) might do the trick. Huawei might implode, there might be component shortages across the board. I don't know.

    What I do know is that there is a lot of anti Android talk that is not based on much real information at all. It's often the same codswallop that gets served up again and a again.

    What counts is competition. That is what we have. That can only be good for consumers.
    Funny, Apple’s demise is always next year. 
    No one mentioned 'demise' (or even doomed! LOL). You only need to read the post I was referring to to see the context.

    Of course, if there is anything factually wrong in what I said, I'm sure you'll set me straight.
    I think you’re being coy. You clearly suggested the cheap knockoff brands will soon be a serious threat to Apple. this is the exact same story we’ve heard from supporters of Knockoff Brand X every year. still waiting. 

    As for Huawei, no brand with a name most Americans can’t even pronounce by sight is going to be a domestic threat to the premium brand and ecosystem that is Apple

    Actually I have a question on this ecosystem being talked about so frequently in this forum. What does the Apple ecosystem consist of? And how many active users of that ecosystem? Let us try to put some numbers and see the big picture.

    1. iPhones - About 800 million to 1 billion?

    2. iPads - About 200 million?

    3. Macs (MBP, MacBook, iMac, iMac Pro, Mac Pro, minis all put together) - About 200 million?

    4. Airpods - 10 to 20 million?

    5. Apple Watch - 100 million?

    6. Apple Music - 30 million?

    7. Apple TV - I don't have any clue. Anyone can come up with numbers?

    8. iPods - Is it relevant anymore?

    9. Anything else important that I missed out? (App store does not count, because that is already included in iPhones and iPad because it is NOT open to any other product in the outside world)


    If we carefully look at the numbers, at least 75% to 80% of the people own only 1 Apple product, i.e. iPhones. Not the entire ecosystem which is mentioned as strength of Apple. Given that this is the REALITY - i.e. most of the people do NOT own Apple's ecosystem, but just ONE product named iPhone, how can everyone keep saying that Apple's strength is ecosystem which MOST of its users ARE NOT using anyway?


    Am I missing something? if anyone can come up with more accurate numbers (which are drastically different from mine), I would be more than happy to stand corrected.

    edited August 2017
  • Reply 24 of 40
    nhtnht Posts: 4,429member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    This was also in the news recently but not picked up here. LOL:

    uk.businessinsider.com/huawei-could-overtake-apple-second-biggest-smartphone-canalys-data-2017-8

    I personally think there will be a supercycle and that is great because, if there is one, it shows at the very least, Apple is not losing users...

    ...Competition is good.

    Apple does not compete at the bottom end. Those who make or sell the most smartphones and those who make the most profitable and high end smartphones are two entirely separate entities.
    This article is based on Q2 data.

    Take a look at some Q1 data:

    www.counterpointresearch.com/afforadable-smartphones-increase-q1-2017/

    That huge increase in the affordable premium  is where the action was, not the bottom end. And that is where Apple doesn't really operate.

    Year on year, Apple is flat (see link in previous post). The pack is closing in on second position. In fact, in some regions Apple has already been bumped down the pecking order.

    Apple and Huawei are slugging it out in major European markets. Q2 saw Huawei take the round:

    https://www.canalys.com/newsroom/huawei-overtakes-apple-cee-xiaomi-rockets-top-five

    In some countries in Europe Huawei is consistently topping Apple:

    "According a GfK report, as of December 2016, Huawei’s North-East Europe market share surpassed 20%, while in Western Europe it reached nearly 15%. Its market share in has topped 20% in many European countries, including Finland, Holland, Belgium, Poland, Spain, Italy and the Czech Republic. For the Western Europe and North-east Europe markets, sales revenue and shipments continue to increase by nearly 100% year-on-year and are expected to maintain strong momentum."

    That was from the horse's mouth so take it at face value.

    www.huawei.com/en/news/2017/4/2017HAS-showcases-strong-growth

    I think Android in Spain is touching 80 or even 90%. Apple is suffering in some regions. Of course one of the biggest areas where it is not suffering is the US. If Huawei does get a carrier deal you can bet they won't be pushing bottom end phones.

    Yes, Huawei also makes low end phones but that isn't where its growth has been. In fact it has decided to pull out of the low end. Not because it doesn't make money there, it just doesn't make enough.

    This article makes it pretty clear that the bottom end isn't where Huawei is generating success:

    https://www.mobileworldlive.com/asia/asia-news/huawei-to-pull-out-of-low-end-smartphone-market/

    As for profits, I saw some numbers the other day that seemed to indicate that Apple was raking in 10% less of handset profits than at the end of 2016, probably as a result of what I just outlined: competitors are squaring up to Apple at the high end but also filling the affordable premium segment with quality phones, that are also profitable.

    We will soon have one iPhone refresh to take us full circle through to September 2018. A long year. That's a lot of weight to carry when, out of the gate, your competitors will also be releasing new hardware head on. Then there will be another wave for MWC 2018 another four months after that.

    Apple has to repeat what it has managed to do this year (largely on the back of the the Plus iPhones).

    The next refresh, plus iPhone 8 (or whatever it is called) might do the trick. Huawei might implode, there might be component shortages across the board. I don't know.

    What I do know is that there is a lot of anti Android talk that is not based on much real information at all. It's often the same codswallop that gets served up again and a again.

    What counts is competition. That is what we have. That can only be good for consumers.
    Funny, Apple’s demise is always next year. 
    No one mentioned 'demise' (or even doomed! LOL). You only need to read the post I was referring to to see the context.

    Of course, if there is anything factually wrong in what I said, I'm sure you'll set me straight.
    I think you’re being coy. You clearly suggested the cheap knockoff brands will soon be a serious threat to Apple. this is the exact same story we’ve heard from supporters of Knockoff Brand X every year. still waiting. 

    As for Huawei, no brand with a name most Americans can’t even pronounce by sight is going to be a domestic threat to the premium brand and ecosystem that is Apple. 
    LOL

    I was actually going to congratulate you on not using the word 'knock-off' but you just blew it. I guessed it's something you can't control now.

    I was just responding to a post  and filling in the bigger picture with some real information.

    As for Huawei not being a US domestic threat, I suggest you read this:

    http://fortune.com/huawei-china-smartphone/

    A threat it certainly is. If they take off in the US I don't know - and neither do you.

    I'm sure the affluent iPhone touting public of Finland thought exactly the same as you not so long ago.

    Now 'Huawei' Rolls off the tongue as easy as Nokia in most of the world. I'm sure the people in the US won't have that many problems pronouncing it.
    There are already "affordable premium" android devices in the US and have been for a while (called mid-tier by most folks) and if Huawei is taking share it's from them.  These aren't actually premium because they lack water resistance which is a godsend unless you are buying phones every two years.

    Which Huawei expects because they won't update Android more than a couple model years.  The Mate 7 (Oct 2014) won't get nougat and is stuck on marshmellow. In comparison the iPhone 5 (2012) has iOS 10.

    https://huaweidl.com/huawei-android-7-0-nougat-emui-5-0-firmware-updates/

    The Honor 8 is slower than any of the flagships (Android or iOS) and is comparable to the iPhone SE.  The Kirin 950 simply can't keep up with the Snapdragon 821 or the A10 in overall performance (mostly deficient in graphics power).  I buy these mid-tier phones for the kids, not because I think they are better, but because ScreenTime works better on Android than iOS.  The iPhone SE would be a much better buy.

    Huawei is next up in a long line of Samsung killers from China.  Better positioned because of Chinese government help but hampered in competing they the US for the same reasons.  So no, no significant take off in the US because they can't payoff carriers like the did in Europe.
  • Reply 25 of 40
    carnegiecarnegie Posts: 718member
    brucemc said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    This was also in the news recently but not picked up here. LOL:

    uk.businessinsider.com/huawei-could-overtake-apple-second-biggest-smartphone-canalys-data-2017-8

    I personally think there will be a supercycle and that is great because, if there is one, it shows at the very least, Apple is not losing users...

    ...Competition is good.

    Apple does not compete at the bottom end. Those who make or sell the most smartphones and those who make the most profitable and high end smartphones are two entirely separate entities.
    This article is based on Q2 data.

    Take a look at some Q1 data:

    www.counterpointresearch.com/afforadable-smartphones-increase-q1-2017/

    That huge increase in the affordable premium  is where the action was, not the bottom end. And that is where Apple doesn't really operate.

    Year on year, Apple is flat (see link in previous post). The pack is closing in on second position. In fact, in some regions Apple has already been bumped down the pecking order.

    Apple and Huawei are slugging it out in major European markets. Q2 saw Huawei take the round:

    https://www.canalys.com/newsroom/huawei-overtakes-apple-cee-xiaomi-rockets-top-five

    In some countries in Europe Huawei is consistently topping Apple:

    "According a GfK report, as of December 2016, Huawei’s North-East Europe market share surpassed 20%, while in Western Europe it reached nearly 15%. Its market share in has topped 20% in many European countries, including Finland, Holland, Belgium, Poland, Spain, Italy and the Czech Republic. For the Western Europe and North-east Europe markets, sales revenue and shipments continue to increase by nearly 100% year-on-year and are expected to maintain strong momentum."

    That was from the horse's mouth so take it at face value.

    www.huawei.com/en/news/2017/4/2017HAS-showcases-strong-growth

    I think Android in Spain is touching 80 or even 90%. Apple is suffering in some regions. Of course one of the biggest areas where it is not suffering is the US. If Huawei does get a carrier deal you can bet they won't be pushing bottom end phones.

    Yes, Huawei also makes low end phones but that isn't where its growth has been. In fact it has decided to pull out of the low end. Not because it doesn't make money there, it just doesn't make enough.

    This article makes it pretty clear that the bottom end isn't where Huawei is generating success:

    https://www.mobileworldlive.com/asia/asia-news/huawei-to-pull-out-of-low-end-smartphone-market/

    As for profits, I saw some numbers the other day that seemed to indicate that Apple was raking in 10% less of handset profits than at the end of 2016, probably as a result of what I just outlined: competitors are squaring up to Apple at the high end but also filling the affordable premium segment with quality phones, that are also profitable.

    We will soon have one iPhone refresh to take us full circle through to September 2018. A long year. That's a lot of weight to carry when, out of the gate, your competitors will also be releasing new hardware head on. Then there will be another wave for MWC 2018 another four months after that.

    Apple has to repeat what it has managed to do this year (largely on the back of the the Plus iPhones).

    The next refresh, plus iPhone 8 (or whatever it is called) might do the trick. Huawei might implode, there might be component shortages across the board. I don't know.

    What I do know is that there is a lot of anti Android talk that is not based on much real information at all. It's often the same codswallop that gets served up again and a again.

    What counts is competition. That is what we have. That can only be good for consumers.




    Apple isn't competing with Android merely with iPhone handsets.  It's all about platforms and ecosystem.  This is the reason it's been reported recently the billion+ iOS device installed base.  That's one company with over a billion active devices versus the entire universe of Android vendors having about a 3 billion installed base.  IOS devices are outnumbered, until you think about where the money is spent, about how many of the competition's installed base are on the latest major Android release, about how loyal iOS users are, about how well integrated those iOS devices are with the rest of the growing Apple ecosystem, about how Apple is adding platforms (Apple Pay, HomeKit, HealyhKit, ARKit, etc) that add value to a large percentage of the iOS installed base, etc.  Apple is becoming a defacto ecosystem/platform standard.  Android remains fragmented.  That's the story. 
    I would be surprised if there are 3B Android phones in use yet.  At the May 2017 Google I/O event, Google indicated that there were 2B monthly active Android devices (which Google can count as using their services).  The largest group outside of Google Android would be in China - would there be 1B active (installed base) Android devices, in a country with a total population of 1.3B?  I would think 500M is closer to reality.

    Apple reported 1B active iOS devices last year.  Given the units sold in last 12 months (while accounting for some that would be retired/broken), 1.2B active iOS devices seems quite plausible.  1.2B out of 3.7B is ~32% "smart device" installed base share globally - not exactly beleaguered - especially when you consider this is mostly the top 30% of users as it pertains to purchasing power.
    Apple didn't report 1 billion active iOS devices, it reported 1 billion active devices. That would include Apple TVs, Apple Watches and Macs. Most of those 1 billion devices would, of course, have been iOS devices. But at that time there would have been perhaps 50 million active Apple TVs and Apple Watches and perhaps 100 million active Macs. Apple had sold around 90 million Macs in the previous 5 years. And for thoroughness, Apple was counting as active any device which had engaged with Apple services in the previous 90 days.

    Apple had previously announced that in November of 2014 it shipped its 1 billionth iOS device.

    By my calculations, when Apple announced 1 billion active devices in January of 2016 it had shipped (i.e. sell-in) around 860 million iPhones and 310 million iPads. I'd have to do some digging when it comes to the number of iPod Touches shipped.
  • Reply 26 of 40
    nhtnht Posts: 4,429member
    avon b7 said:

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    This was also in the news recently but not picked up here. LOL:

    uk.businessinsider.com/huawei-could-overtake-apple-second-biggest-smartphone-canalys-data-2017-8

    I personally think there will be a supercycle and that is great because, if there is one, it shows at the very least, Apple is not losing users...

    ...Competition is good.

    Apple does not compete at the bottom end. Those who make or sell the most smartphones and those who make the most profitable and high end smartphones are two entirely separate entities.
    This article is based on Q2 data.

    Take a look at some Q1 data:

    www.counterpointresearch.com/afforadable-smartphones-increase-q1-2017/

    That huge increase in the affordable premium  is where the action was, not the bottom end. And that is where Apple doesn't really operate.

    Year on year, Apple is flat (see link in previous post). The pack is closing in on second position. In fact, in some regions Apple has already been bumped down the pecking order.

    Apple and Huawei are slugging it out in major European markets. Q2 saw Huawei take the round:

    https://www.canalys.com/newsroom/huawei-overtakes-apple-cee-xiaomi-rockets-top-five

    In some countries in Europe Huawei is consistently topping Apple:

    "According a GfK report, as of December 2016, Huawei’s North-East Europe market share surpassed 20%, while in Western Europe it reached nearly 15%. Its market share in has topped 20% in many European countries, including Finland, Holland, Belgium, Poland, Spain, Italy and the Czech Republic. For the Western Europe and North-east Europe markets, sales revenue and shipments continue to increase by nearly 100% year-on-year and are expected to maintain strong momentum."

    That was from the horse's mouth so take it at face value.

    www.huawei.com/en/news/2017/4/2017HAS-showcases-strong-growth

    I think Android in Spain is touching 80 or even 90%. Apple is suffering in some regions. Of course one of the biggest areas where it is not suffering is the US. If Huawei does get a carrier deal you can bet they won't be pushing bottom end phones.

    Yes, Huawei also makes low end phones but that isn't where its growth has been. In fact it has decided to pull out of the low end. Not because it doesn't make money there, it just doesn't make enough.

    This article makes it pretty clear that the bottom end isn't where Huawei is generating success:

    https://www.mobileworldlive.com/asia/asia-news/huawei-to-pull-out-of-low-end-smartphone-market/

    As for profits, I saw some numbers the other day that seemed to indicate that Apple was raking in 10% less of handset profits than at the end of 2016, probably as a result of what I just outlined: competitors are squaring up to Apple at the high end but also filling the affordable premium segment with quality phones, that are also profitable.

    We will soon have one iPhone refresh to take us full circle through to September 2018. A long year. That's a lot of weight to carry when, out of the gate, your competitors will also be releasing new hardware head on. Then there will be another wave for MWC 2018 another four months after that.

    Apple has to repeat what it has managed to do this year (largely on the back of the the Plus iPhones).

    The next refresh, plus iPhone 8 (or whatever it is called) might do the trick. Huawei might implode, there might be component shortages across the board. I don't know.

    What I do know is that there is a lot of anti Android talk that is not based on much real information at all. It's often the same codswallop that gets served up again and a again.

    What counts is competition. That is what we have. That can only be good for consumers.
    Funny, Apple’s demise is always next year. 
    No one mentioned 'demise' (or even doomed! LOL). You only need to read the post I was referring to to see the context.

    Of course, if there is anything factually wrong in what I said, I'm sure you'll set me straight.
    I think you’re being coy. You clearly suggested the cheap knockoff brands will soon be a serious threat to Apple. this is the exact same story we’ve heard from supporters of Knockoff Brand X every year. still waiting. 

    As for Huawei, no brand with a name most Americans can’t even pronounce by sight is going to be a domestic threat to the premium brand and ecosystem that is Apple

    Actually I have a question on this ecosystem being talked about so frequently in this forum. What does the Apple ecosystem consist of? And how many active users of that ecosystem? Let us try to put some numbers and see the big picture.

    1. iPhones - About 800 million to 1 billion?

    2. iPads - About 200 million?

    3. Macs (MBP, MacBook, iMac, iMac Pro, Mac Pro, minis all put together) - About 200 million?

    4. Airpods - 10 to 20 million?

    5. Apple Watch - 100 million?

    6. Apple Music - 30 million?

    7. Apple TV - I don't have any clue. Anyone can come up with numbers?

    8. iPods - Is it relevant anymore?

    9. Anything else important that I missed out? (App store does not count, because that is already included in iPhones and iPad because it is NOT open to any other product in the outside world)


    If we carefully look at the numbers, at least 75% to 80% of the people own only 1 Apple product, i.e. iPhones. Not the entire ecosystem which is mentioned as strength of Apple. Given that this is the REALITY - i.e. most of the people do NOT own Apple's ecosystemsem, but just ONE product named iPhone, how can everyone keep saying that Apple's strength is ecosystem which MOST of its users ARE NOT using anyway?

    Am I missing something? if anyone can come up with more accurate numbers (which are drastically different from mine), I would be more than happy to stand corrected.

    Really? You don't understand that the Apple ecosystem is the combination of hardware, software and services?

    That even if you only own an iPhone the stickiness of the platform is due to the ecosystem that includes imessaging other Apple users, the ability to buy content from iTunes, the ability to back up to iCloud, the ability to pay using ApplePay, the free lifestyle apps like health, the iOS only apps, etc.

    Thats ignoring that if 20% of people own more than one device that means many households own 3 or more Apple devices.  A family of 4, using that 20-25% value means 2 iphones for the parents, two iPads/phones for the kids and a Mac?  

    Really?
  • Reply 27 of 40
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,656member
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    This was also in the news recently but not picked up here. LOL:

    uk.businessinsider.com/huawei-could-overtake-apple-second-biggest-smartphone-canalys-data-2017-8

    I personally think there will be a supercycle and that is great because, if there is one, it shows at the very least, Apple is not losing users...

    ...Competition is good.

    Apple does not compete at the bottom end. Those who make or sell the most smartphones and those who make the most profitable and high end smartphones are two entirely separate entities.
    This article is based on Q2 data.

    Take a look at some Q1 data:

    www.counterpointresearch.com/afforadable-smartphones-increase-q1-2017/

    That huge increase in the affordable premium  is where the action was, not the bottom end. And that is where Apple doesn't really operate.

    Year on year, Apple is flat (see link in previous post). The pack is closing in on second position. In fact, in some regions Apple has already been bumped down the pecking order.

    Apple and Huawei are slugging it out in major European markets. Q2 saw Huawei take the round:

    https://www.canalys.com/newsroom/huawei-overtakes-apple-cee-xiaomi-rockets-top-five

    In some countries in Europe Huawei is consistently topping Apple:

    "According a GfK report, as of December 2016, Huawei’s North-East Europe market share surpassed 20%, while in Western Europe it reached nearly 15%. Its market share in has topped 20% in many European countries, including Finland, Holland, Belgium, Poland, Spain, Italy and the Czech Republic. For the Western Europe and North-east Europe markets, sales revenue and shipments continue to increase by nearly 100% year-on-year and are expected to maintain strong momentum."

    That was from the horse's mouth so take it at face value.

    www.huawei.com/en/news/2017/4/2017HAS-showcases-strong-growth

    I think Android in Spain is touching 80 or even 90%. Apple is suffering in some regions. Of course one of the biggest areas where it is not suffering is the US. If Huawei does get a carrier deal you can bet they won't be pushing bottom end phones.

    Yes, Huawei also makes low end phones but that isn't where its growth has been. In fact it has decided to pull out of the low end. Not because it doesn't make money there, it just doesn't make enough.

    This article makes it pretty clear that the bottom end isn't where Huawei is generating success:

    https://www.mobileworldlive.com/asia/asia-news/huawei-to-pull-out-of-low-end-smartphone-market/

    As for profits, I saw some numbers the other day that seemed to indicate that Apple was raking in 10% less of handset profits than at the end of 2016, probably as a result of what I just outlined: competitors are squaring up to Apple at the high end but also filling the affordable premium segment with quality phones, that are also profitable.

    We will soon have one iPhone refresh to take us full circle through to September 2018. A long year. That's a lot of weight to carry when, out of the gate, your competitors will also be releasing new hardware head on. Then there will be another wave for MWC 2018 another four months after that.

    Apple has to repeat what it has managed to do this year (largely on the back of the the Plus iPhones).

    The next refresh, plus iPhone 8 (or whatever it is called) might do the trick. Huawei might implode, there might be component shortages across the board. I don't know.

    What I do know is that there is a lot of anti Android talk that is not based on much real information at all. It's often the same codswallop that gets served up again and a again.

    What counts is competition. That is what we have. That can only be good for consumers.
    Funny, Apple’s demise is always next year. 
    No one mentioned 'demise' (or even doomed! LOL). You only need to read the post I was referring to to see the context.

    Of course, if there is anything factually wrong in what I said, I'm sure you'll set me straight.
    I think you’re being coy. You clearly suggested the cheap knockoff brands will soon be a serious threat to Apple. this is the exact same story we’ve heard from supporters of Knockoff Brand X every year. still waiting. 

    As for Huawei, no brand with a name most Americans can’t even pronounce by sight is going to be a domestic threat to the premium brand and ecosystem that is Apple

    Actually I have a question on this ecosystem being talked about so frequently in this forum. What does the Apple ecosystem consist of? And how many active users of that ecosystem? Let us try to put some numbers and see the big picture.

    1. iPhones - About 800 million to 1 billion?

    2. iPads - About 200 million?

    3. Macs (MBP, MacBook, iMac, iMac Pro, Mac Pro, minis all put together) - About 200 million?

    4. Airpods - 10 to 20 million?

    5. Apple Watch - 100 million?

    6. Apple Music - 30 million?

    7. Apple TV - I don't have any clue. Anyone can come up with numbers?

    8. iPods - Is it relevant anymore?

    9. Anything else important that I missed out? (App store does not count, because that is already included in iPhones and iPad because it is NOT open to any other product in the outside world)


    If we carefully look at the numbers, at least 75% to 80% of the people own only 1 Apple product, i.e. iPhones. Not the entire ecosystem which is mentioned as strength of Apple. Given that this is the REALITY - i.e. most of the people do NOT own Apple's ecosystemsem, but just ONE product named iPhone, how can everyone keep saying that Apple's strength is ecosystem which MOST of its users ARE NOT using anyway?

    Am I missing something? if anyone can come up with more accurate numbers (which are drastically different from mine), I would be more than happy to stand corrected.

    Really? You don't understand that the Apple ecosystem is the combination of hardware, software and services?

    That even if you only own an iPhone the stickiness of the platform is due to the ecosystem that includes imessaging other Apple users, the ability to buy content from iTunes, the ability to back up to iCloud, the ability to pay using ApplePay, the free lifestyle apps like health, the iOS only apps, etc.

    Thats ignoring that if 20% of people own more than one device that means many households own 3 or more Apple devices.  A family of 4, using that 20-25% value means 2 iphones for the parents, two iPads/phones for the kids and a Mac?  

    Really?
    Owning one Apple device does not an ecosystem make.

    That would make it identical to Android and the whole point of of the ecosystem claim is to differentiate the platform from Android.

    Android users also use cloud services, send messages and purchase from Android Stores with the same stickiness.
  • Reply 28 of 40
    avon b7 said:
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    This was also in the news recently but not picked up here. LOL:

    uk.businessinsider.com/huawei-could-overtake-apple-second-biggest-smartphone-canalys-data-2017-8

    I personally think there will be a supercycle and that is great because, if there is one, it shows at the very least, Apple is not losing users...

    ...Competition is good.

    Apple does not compete at the bottom end. Those who make or sell the most smartphones and those who make the most profitable and high end smartphones are two entirely separate entities.
    This article is based on Q2 data.

    Take a look at some Q1 data:

    www.counterpointresearch.com/afforadable-smartphones-increase-q1-2017/

    That huge increase in the affordable premium  is where the action was, not the bottom end. And that is where Apple doesn't really operate.

    Year on year, Apple is flat (see link in previous post). The pack is closing in on second position. In fact, in some regions Apple has already been bumped down the pecking order.

    Apple and Huawei are slugging it out in major European markets. Q2 saw Huawei take the round:

    https://www.canalys.com/newsroom/huawei-overtakes-apple-cee-xiaomi-rockets-top-five

    In some countries in Europe Huawei is consistently topping Apple:

    "According a GfK report, as of December 2016, Huawei’s North-East Europe market share surpassed 20%, while in Western Europe it reached nearly 15%. Its market share in has topped 20% in many European countries, including Finland, Holland, Belgium, Poland, Spain, Italy and the Czech Republic. For the Western Europe and North-east Europe markets, sales revenue and shipments continue to increase by nearly 100% year-on-year and are expected to maintain strong momentum."

    That was from the horse's mouth so take it at face value.

    www.huawei.com/en/news/2017/4/2017HAS-showcases-strong-growth

    I think Android in Spain is touching 80 or even 90%. Apple is suffering in some regions. Of course one of the biggest areas where it is not suffering is the US. If Huawei does get a carrier deal you can bet they won't be pushing bottom end phones.

    Yes, Huawei also makes low end phones but that isn't where its growth has been. In fact it has decided to pull out of the low end. Not because it doesn't make money there, it just doesn't make enough.

    This article makes it pretty clear that the bottom end isn't where Huawei is generating success:

    https://www.mobileworldlive.com/asia/asia-news/huawei-to-pull-out-of-low-end-smartphone-market/

    As for profits, I saw some numbers the other day that seemed to indicate that Apple was raking in 10% less of handset profits than at the end of 2016, probably as a result of what I just outlined: competitors are squaring up to Apple at the high end but also filling the affordable premium segment with quality phones, that are also profitable.

    We will soon have one iPhone refresh to take us full circle through to September 2018. A long year. That's a lot of weight to carry when, out of the gate, your competitors will also be releasing new hardware head on. Then there will be another wave for MWC 2018 another four months after that.

    Apple has to repeat what it has managed to do this year (largely on the back of the the Plus iPhones).

    The next refresh, plus iPhone 8 (or whatever it is called) might do the trick. Huawei might implode, there might be component shortages across the board. I don't know.

    What I do know is that there is a lot of anti Android talk that is not based on much real information at all. It's often the same codswallop that gets served up again and a again.

    What counts is competition. That is what we have. That can only be good for consumers.
    Funny, Apple’s demise is always next year. 
    No one mentioned 'demise' (or even doomed! LOL). You only need to read the post I was referring to to see the context.

    Of course, if there is anything factually wrong in what I said, I'm sure you'll set me straight.
    I think you’re being coy. You clearly suggested the cheap knockoff brands will soon be a serious threat to Apple. this is the exact same story we’ve heard from supporters of Knockoff Brand X every year. still waiting. 

    As for Huawei, no brand with a name most Americans can’t even pronounce by sight is going to be a domestic threat to the premium brand and ecosystem that is Apple

    Actually I have a question on this ecosystem being talked about so frequently in this forum. What does the Apple ecosystem consist of? And how many active users of that ecosystem? Let us try to put some numbers and see the big picture.

    1. iPhones - About 800 million to 1 billion?

    2. iPads - About 200 million?

    3. Macs (MBP, MacBook, iMac, iMac Pro, Mac Pro, minis all put together) - About 200 million?

    4. Airpods - 10 to 20 million?

    5. Apple Watch - 100 million?

    6. Apple Music - 30 million?

    7. Apple TV - I don't have any clue. Anyone can come up with numbers?

    8. iPods - Is it relevant anymore?

    9. Anything else important that I missed out? (App store does not count, because that is already included in iPhones and iPad because it is NOT open to any other product in the outside world)


    If we carefully look at the numbers, at least 75% to 80% of the people own only 1 Apple product, i.e. iPhones. Not the entire ecosystem which is mentioned as strength of Apple. Given that this is the REALITY - i.e. most of the people do NOT own Apple's ecosystemsem, but just ONE product named iPhone, how can everyone keep saying that Apple's strength is ecosystem which MOST of its users ARE NOT using anyway?

    Am I missing something? if anyone can come up with more accurate numbers (which are drastically different from mine), I would be more than happy to stand corrected.

    Really? You don't understand that the Apple ecosystem is the combination of hardware, software and services?

    That even if you only own an iPhone the stickiness of the platform is due to the ecosystem that includes imessaging other Apple users, the ability to buy content from iTunes, the ability to back up to iCloud, the ability to pay using ApplePay, the free lifestyle apps like health, the iOS only apps, etc.

    Thats ignoring that if 20% of people own more than one device that means many households own 3 or more Apple devices.  A family of 4, using that 20-25% value means 2 iphones for the parents, two iPads/phones for the kids and a Mac?  

    Really?
    Owning one Apple device does not an ecosystem make.

    That would make it identical to Android and the whole point of of the ecosystem claim is to differentiate the platform from Android.

    Android users also use cloud services, send messages and purchase from Android Stores with the same stickiness.

    Ah, I was about to say the same thing. You beat me to it. And regarding a family having 1 Mac and 2 iphones on an average, I accept that argument. Even accounting for it, at least 60% of iPhone users do NOT own any other product (not even a single one of iPad/Mac/Watch/TV/Airpods) from Apple. So the MAJORITY of iPhone users do NOT enjoy the ecosystem that people talk about here. The MAJORITY still owns ONLY ONE product from Apple, i.e. iPhone. This is NOT going to change anytime soon. So when you talk about eco system, please do keep in mind the bigger picture.
  • Reply 29 of 40
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,656member
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    This was also in the news recently but not picked up here. LOL:

    uk.businessinsider.com/huawei-could-overtake-apple-second-biggest-smartphone-canalys-data-2017-8

    I personally think there will be a supercycle and that is great because, if there is one, it shows at the very least, Apple is not losing users...

    ...Competition is good.

    Apple does not compete at the bottom end. Those who make or sell the most smartphones and those who make the most profitable and high end smartphones are two entirely separate entities.
    This article is based on Q2 data.

    Take a look at some Q1 data:

    www.counterpointresearch.com/afforadable-smartphones-increase-q1-2017/

    That huge increase in the affordable premium  is where the action was, not the bottom end. And that is where Apple doesn't really operate.

    Year on year, Apple is flat (see link in previous post). The pack is closing in on second position. In fact, in some regions Apple has already been bumped down the pecking order.

    Apple and Huawei are slugging it out in major European markets. Q2 saw Huawei take the round:

    https://www.canalys.com/newsroom/huawei-overtakes-apple-cee-xiaomi-rockets-top-five

    In some countries in Europe Huawei is consistently topping Apple:

    "According a GfK report, as of December 2016, Huawei’s North-East Europe market share surpassed 20%, while in Western Europe it reached nearly 15%. Its market share in has topped 20% in many European countries, including Finland, Holland, Belgium, Poland, Spain, Italy and the Czech Republic. For the Western Europe and North-east Europe markets, sales revenue and shipments continue to increase by nearly 100% year-on-year and are expected to maintain strong momentum."

    That was from the horse's mouth so take it at face value.

    www.huawei.com/en/news/2017/4/2017HAS-showcases-strong-growth

    I think Android in Spain is touching 80 or even 90%. Apple is suffering in some regions. Of course one of the biggest areas where it is not suffering is the US. If Huawei does get a carrier deal you can bet they won't be pushing bottom end phones.

    Yes, Huawei also makes low end phones but that isn't where its growth has been. In fact it has decided to pull out of the low end. Not because it doesn't make money there, it just doesn't make enough.

    This article makes it pretty clear that the bottom end isn't where Huawei is generating success:

    https://www.mobileworldlive.com/asia/asia-news/huawei-to-pull-out-of-low-end-smartphone-market/

    As for profits, I saw some numbers the other day that seemed to indicate that Apple was raking in 10% less of handset profits than at the end of 2016, probably as a result of what I just outlined: competitors are squaring up to Apple at the high end but also filling the affordable premium segment with quality phones, that are also profitable.

    We will soon have one iPhone refresh to take us full circle through to September 2018. A long year. That's a lot of weight to carry when, out of the gate, your competitors will also be releasing new hardware head on. Then there will be another wave for MWC 2018 another four months after that.

    Apple has to repeat what it has managed to do this year (largely on the back of the the Plus iPhones).

    The next refresh, plus iPhone 8 (or whatever it is called) might do the trick. Huawei might implode, there might be component shortages across the board. I don't know.

    What I do know is that there is a lot of anti Android talk that is not based on much real information at all. It's often the same codswallop that gets served up again and a again.

    What counts is competition. That is what we have. That can only be good for consumers.
    Funny, Apple’s demise is always next year. 
    No one mentioned 'demise' (or even doomed! LOL). You only need to read the post I was referring to to see the context.

    Of course, if there is anything factually wrong in what I said, I'm sure you'll set me straight.
    I think you’re being coy. You clearly suggested the cheap knockoff brands will soon be a serious threat to Apple. this is the exact same story we’ve heard from supporters of Knockoff Brand X every year. still waiting. 

    As for Huawei, no brand with a name most Americans can’t even pronounce by sight is going to be a domestic threat to the premium brand and ecosystem that is Apple. 
    LOL

    I was actually going to congratulate you on not using the word 'knock-off' but you just blew it. I guessed it's something you can't control now.

    I was just responding to a post  and filling in the bigger picture with some real information.

    As for Huawei not being a US domestic threat, I suggest you read this:

    http://fortune.com/huawei-china-smartphone/

    A threat it certainly is. If they take off in the US I don't know - and neither do you.

    I'm sure the affluent iPhone touting public of Finland thought exactly the same as you not so long ago.

    Now 'Huawei' Rolls off the tongue as easy as Nokia in most of the world. I'm sure the people in the US won't have that many problems pronouncing it.
    There are already "affordable premium" android devices in the US and have been for a while (called mid-tier by most folks) and if Huawei is taking share it's from them.  These aren't actually premium because they lack water resistance which is a godsend unless you are buying phones every two years.

    Which Huawei expects because they won't update Android more than a couple model years.  The Mate 7 (Oct 2014) won't get nougat and is stuck on marshmellow. In comparison the iPhone 5 (2012) has iOS 10.

    https://huaweidl.com/huawei-android-7-0-nougat-emui-5-0-firmware-updates/

    The Honor 8 is slower than any of the flagships (Android or iOS) and is comparable to the iPhone SE.  The Kirin 950 simply can't keep up with the Snapdragon 821 or the A10 in overall performance (mostly deficient in graphics power).  I buy these mid-tier phones for the kids, not because I think they are better, but because ScreenTime works better on Android than iOS.  The iPhone SE would be a much better buy.

    Huawei is next up in a long line of Samsung killers from China.  Better positioned because of Chinese government help but hampered in competing they the US for the same reasons.  So no, no significant take off in the US because they can't payoff carriers like the did in Europe.
    There is a gigantic difference between a device being available in a country and that device being picked up and actively pushed by a large carrier. It is like night and day.

    Water resistance is not a required characteristic for a premium device.

    For mid tier phones many users actually do upgrade every two years. It's one of the advantages of not breaking the bank on a premium phone and trying to use it for longer to squeeze more out if it on an economic level. That also puts the Android OS upgrade issue into perspective although people buy the phones, perfectly aware of the situation anyway.

    You should not be comparing any Honor phone with any Flagship phone. Honor is a sub-brand of Huawei and gets none of the fresh hot stuff. Honor has to wait for hand me downs of the important stuff. Huawei reserves those elements for it own branded flagships, hence the Honor 9 has just released with the Kirin 960 because the Kirin 970 is already rumoured to be in mass production. 

    The Honor 8 has been a record breaker for Honor and competed very well with other phones in its class.

    The Honor 9 has taken that competiveness to a new level. Is there anything in its class to top it? How many negative reviews have you seen?

    I use a low end Kirin and do not notice any speed issues. None. 

    No one has said the Kirin 960 is a slouch so the 970 will be a step even further ahead but for your average user the normal use of the phone is great from the 950 up. Phones have been fast enough for many users for a few years now. Being 'faster' isn't such a big deal until something comes along that weighs things down again.

    The 970 will bring some new elements into play (if rumours are to be believed) but I'd say graphics will get a major push in the Mate 10.  Along with locally resolved AI. Until it is announced though, it just pie in the sky.

    The iPhone SE is a niche phone because of screen size. Apple's biggest earners have been the Plus phones and an important selling point is the screen size. I'm sure an SE Plus would be a very hot seller but I doubt Apple wants to do that if it can avoid it.

    Huawei hasn't paid anyone off in Europe. They offer handset discounts to carriers depending on how much Huawei infrastructure they purchase. They are able to do that because they produce hardware and software for literally every element in the communications chain. Every single element.

    As for the 'long line' of Chinese Samsung killers. Can you name just one? Apart from Huawei. To be a 'Samsung killer' you need worldwide reach. AFAIK, Huawei is the only Chinese handset maker with that reach.
  • Reply 30 of 40
    avon b7 said:
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    This was also in the news recently but not picked up here. LOL:

    uk.businessinsider.com/huawei-could-overtake-apple-second-biggest-smartphone-canalys-data-2017-8

    I personally think there will be a supercycle and that is great because, if there is one, it shows at the very least, Apple is not losing users...

    ...Competition is good.

    Apple does not compete at the bottom end. Those who make or sell the most smartphones and those who make the most profitable and high end smartphones are two entirely separate entities.
    This article is based on Q2 data.

    Take a look at some Q1 data:

    www.counterpointresearch.com/afforadable-smartphones-increase-q1-2017/

    That huge increase in the affordable premium  is where the action was, not the bottom end. And that is where Apple doesn't really operate.

    Year on year, Apple is flat (see link in previous post). The pack is closing in on second position. In fact, in some regions Apple has already been bumped down the pecking order.

    Apple and Huawei are slugging it out in major European markets. Q2 saw Huawei take the round:

    https://www.canalys.com/newsroom/huawei-overtakes-apple-cee-xiaomi-rockets-top-five

    In some countries in Europe Huawei is consistently topping Apple:

    "According a GfK report, as of December 2016, Huawei’s North-East Europe market share surpassed 20%, while in Western Europe it reached nearly 15%. Its market share in has topped 20% in many European countries, including Finland, Holland, Belgium, Poland, Spain, Italy and the Czech Republic. For the Western Europe and North-east Europe markets, sales revenue and shipments continue to increase by nearly 100% year-on-year and are expected to maintain strong momentum."

    That was from the horse's mouth so take it at face value.

    www.huawei.com/en/news/2017/4/2017HAS-showcases-strong-growth

    I think Android in Spain is touching 80 or even 90%. Apple is suffering in some regions. Of course one of the biggest areas where it is not suffering is the US. If Huawei does get a carrier deal you can bet they won't be pushing bottom end phones.

    Yes, Huawei also makes low end phones but that isn't where its growth has been. In fact it has decided to pull out of the low end. Not because it doesn't make money there, it just doesn't make enough.

    This article makes it pretty clear that the bottom end isn't where Huawei is generating success:

    https://www.mobileworldlive.com/asia/asia-news/huawei-to-pull-out-of-low-end-smartphone-market/

    As for profits, I saw some numbers the other day that seemed to indicate that Apple was raking in 10% less of handset profits than at the end of 2016, probably as a result of what I just outlined: competitors are squaring up to Apple at the high end but also filling the affordable premium segment with quality phones, that are also profitable.

    We will soon have one iPhone refresh to take us full circle through to September 2018. A long year. That's a lot of weight to carry when, out of the gate, your competitors will also be releasing new hardware head on. Then there will be another wave for MWC 2018 another four months after that.

    Apple has to repeat what it has managed to do this year (largely on the back of the the Plus iPhones).

    The next refresh, plus iPhone 8 (or whatever it is called) might do the trick. Huawei might implode, there might be component shortages across the board. I don't know.

    What I do know is that there is a lot of anti Android talk that is not based on much real information at all. It's often the same codswallop that gets served up again and a again.

    What counts is competition. That is what we have. That can only be good for consumers.
    Funny, Apple’s demise is always next year. 
    No one mentioned 'demise' (or even doomed! LOL). You only need to read the post I was referring to to see the context.

    Of course, if there is anything factually wrong in what I said, I'm sure you'll set me straight.
    I think you’re being coy. You clearly suggested the cheap knockoff brands will soon be a serious threat to Apple. this is the exact same story we’ve heard from supporters of Knockoff Brand X every year. still waiting. 

    As for Huawei, no brand with a name most Americans can’t even pronounce by sight is going to be a domestic threat to the premium brand and ecosystem that is Apple. 
    LOL

    I was actually going to congratulate you on not using the word 'knock-off' but you just blew it. I guessed it's something you can't control now.

    I was just responding to a post  and filling in the bigger picture with some real information.

    As for Huawei not being a US domestic threat, I suggest you read this:

    http://fortune.com/huawei-china-smartphone/

    A threat it certainly is. If they take off in the US I don't know - and neither do you.

    I'm sure the affluent iPhone touting public of Finland thought exactly the same as you not so long ago.

    Now 'Huawei' Rolls off the tongue as easy as Nokia in most of the world. I'm sure the people in the US won't have that many problems pronouncing it.
    There are already "affordable premium" android devices in the US and have been for a while (called mid-tier by most folks) and if Huawei is taking share it's from them.  These aren't actually premium because they lack water resistance which is a godsend unless you are buying phones every two years.

    Which Huawei expects because they won't update Android more than a couple model years.  The Mate 7 (Oct 2014) won't get nougat and is stuck on marshmellow. In comparison the iPhone 5 (2012) has iOS 10.

    https://huaweidl.com/huawei-android-7-0-nougat-emui-5-0-firmware-updates/

    The Honor 8 is slower than any of the flagships (Android or iOS) and is comparable to the iPhone SE.  The Kirin 950 simply can't keep up with the Snapdragon 821 or the A10 in overall performance (mostly deficient in graphics power).  I buy these mid-tier phones for the kids, not because I think they are better, but because ScreenTime works better on Android than iOS.  The iPhone SE would be a much better buy.

    Huawei is next up in a long line of Samsung killers from China.  Better positioned because of Chinese government help but hampered in competing they the US for the same reasons.  So no, no significant take off in the US because they can't payoff carriers like the did in Europe.
    There is a gigantic difference between a device being available in a country and that device being picked up and actively pushed by a large carrier. It is like night and day.

    Water resistance is not a required characteristic for a premium device.

    For mid tier phones many users actually do upgrade every two years. It's one of the advantages of not breaking the bank on a premium phone and trying to use it for longer to squeeze more out if it on an economic level. That also puts the Android OS upgrade issue into perspective although people buy the phones, perfectly aware of the situation anyway.

    You should not be comparing any Honor phone with any Flagship phone. Honor is a sub-brand of Huawei and gets none of the fresh hot stuff. Honor has to wait for hand me downs of the important stuff. Huawei reserves those elements for it own branded flagships, hence the Honor 9 has just released with the Kirin 960 because the Kirin 970 is already rumoured to be in mass production. 

    The Honor 8 has been a record breaker for Honor and competed very well with other phones in its class.

    The Honor 9 has taken that competiveness to a new level. Is there anything in its class to top it? How many negative reviews have you seen?

    I use a low end Kirin and do not notice any speed issues. None. 

    No one has said the Kirin 960 is a slouch so the 970 will be a step even further ahead but for your average user the normal use of the phone is great from the 950 up. Phones have been fast enough for many users for a few years now. Being 'faster' isn't such a big deal until something comes along that weighs things down again.

    The 970 will bring some new elements into play (if rumours are to be believed) but I'd say graphics will get a major push in the Mate 10.  Along with locally resolved AI. Until it is announced though, it just pie in the sky.

    The iPhone SE is a niche phone because of screen size. Apple's biggest earners have been the Plus phones and an important selling point is the screen size. I'm sure an SE Plus would be a very hot seller but I doubt Apple wants to do that if it can avoid it.

    Huawei hasn't paid anyone off in Europe. They offer handset discounts to carriers depending on how much Huawei infrastructure they purchase. They are able to do that because they produce hardware and software for literally every element in the communications chain. Every single element.

    As for the 'long line' of Chinese Samsung killers. Can you name just one? Apart from Huawei. To be a 'Samsung killer' you need worldwide reach. AFAIK, Huawei is the only Chinese handset maker with that reach.

    Agreed with you all the points, except the last one. Actually BBK electronics (Oppo + Vivo + OnePlus) has made huge strides in improving their offline sales, not just in China but in other countries as well. So they are a legitimate threat to Samsung.

    Xiaomi was another one, which looked like would be a Samsung killer couple of years back. But they withdrew from the battle quite inexplicably on their own by NOT manufacturing enough handsets for sale, for reasons known only to them. They are on the rise again. But I don't really have any clue what their strategy for future would be (meaning would they retreat again on their own by manufacturing less handsets than they are capable of selling, or increase prices dramatically and put a self-goal - no one knows), so no comments on them.

    edited August 2017
  • Reply 31 of 40
    nht said:
    There are already "affordable premium" android devices in the US and have been for a while (called mid-tier by most folks) and if Huawei is taking share it's from them.  These aren't actually premium because they lack water resistance which is a godsend unless you are buying phones every two years..
    isn't it a bit funny when water resistance become a non-negotiable feature once Apple implements OFFICIALLY in iPhones in late 2016, but a gimmick/useless feature when Sony introduces it in early 2013 and NOT an issue for iPhone 5s/6/6s but only applicable to Honor 9 or Mate 7?
    edited August 2017 avon b7singularity
  • Reply 32 of 40
    nhtnht Posts: 4,429member
    avon b7 said:
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    This was also in the news recently but not picked up here. LOL:

    uk.businessinsider.com/huawei-could-overtake-apple-second-biggest-smartphone-canalys-data-2017-8

    I personally think there will be a supercycle and that is great because, if there is one, it shows at the very least, Apple is not losing users...

    ...Competition is good.

    Apple does not compete at the bottom end. Those who make or sell the most smartphones and those who make the most profitable and high end smartphones are two entirely separate entities.
    This article is based on Q2 data.

    Take a look at some Q1 data:

    www.counterpointresearch.com/afforadable-smartphones-increase-q1-2017/

    That huge increase in the affordable premium  is where the action was, not the bottom end. And that is where Apple doesn't really operate.

    Year on year, Apple is flat (see link in previous post). The pack is closing in on second position. In fact, in some regions Apple has already been bumped down the pecking order.

    Apple and Huawei are slugging it out in major European markets. Q2 saw Huawei take the round:

    https://www.canalys.com/newsroom/huawei-overtakes-apple-cee-xiaomi-rockets-top-five

    In some countries in Europe Huawei is consistently topping Apple:

    "According a GfK report, as of December 2016, Huawei’s North-East Europe market share surpassed 20%, while in Western Europe it reached nearly 15%. Its market share in has topped 20% in many European countries, including Finland, Holland, Belgium, Poland, Spain, Italy and the Czech Republic. For the Western Europe and North-east Europe markets, sales revenue and shipments continue to increase by nearly 100% year-on-year and are expected to maintain strong momentum."

    That was from the horse's mouth so take it at face value.

    www.huawei.com/en/news/2017/4/2017HAS-showcases-strong-growth

    I think Android in Spain is touching 80 or even 90%. Apple is suffering in some regions. Of course one of the biggest areas where it is not suffering is the US. If Huawei does get a carrier deal you can bet they won't be pushing bottom end phones.

    Yes, Huawei also makes low end phones but that isn't where its growth has been. In fact it has decided to pull out of the low end. Not because it doesn't make money there, it just doesn't make enough.

    This article makes it pretty clear that the bottom end isn't where Huawei is generating success:

    https://www.mobileworldlive.com/asia/asia-news/huawei-to-pull-out-of-low-end-smartphone-market/

    As for profits, I saw some numbers the other day that seemed to indicate that Apple was raking in 10% less of handset profits than at the end of 2016, probably as a result of what I just outlined: competitors are squaring up to Apple at the high end but also filling the affordable premium segment with quality phones, that are also profitable.

    We will soon have one iPhone refresh to take us full circle through to September 2018. A long year. That's a lot of weight to carry when, out of the gate, your competitors will also be releasing new hardware head on. Then there will be another wave for MWC 2018 another four months after that.

    Apple has to repeat what it has managed to do this year (largely on the back of the the Plus iPhones).

    The next refresh, plus iPhone 8 (or whatever it is called) might do the trick. Huawei might implode, there might be component shortages across the board. I don't know.

    What I do know is that there is a lot of anti Android talk that is not based on much real information at all. It's often the same codswallop that gets served up again and a again.

    What counts is competition. That is what we have. That can only be good for consumers.
    Funny, Apple’s demise is always next year. 
    No one mentioned 'demise' (or even doomed! LOL). You only need to read the post I was referring to to see the context.

    Of course, if there is anything factually wrong in what I said, I'm sure you'll set me straight.
    I think you’re being coy. You clearly suggested the cheap knockoff brands will soon be a serious threat to Apple. this is the exact same story we’ve heard from supporters of Knockoff Brand X every year. still waiting. 

    As for Huawei, no brand with a name most Americans can’t even pronounce by sight is going to be a domestic threat to the premium brand and ecosystem that is Apple

    Actually I have a question on this ecosystem being talked about so frequently in this forum. What does the Apple ecosystem consist of? And how many active users of that ecosystem? Let us try to put some numbers and see the big picture.

    1. iPhones - About 800 million to 1 billion?

    2. iPads - About 200 million?

    3. Macs (MBP, MacBook, iMac, iMac Pro, Mac Pro, minis all put together) - About 200 million?

    4. Airpods - 10 to 20 million?

    5. Apple Watch - 100 million?

    6. Apple Music - 30 million?

    7. Apple TV - I don't have any clue. Anyone can come up with numbers?

    8. iPods - Is it relevant anymore?

    9. Anything else important that I missed out? (App store does not count, because that is already included in iPhones and iPad because it is NOT open to any other product in the outside world)


    If we carefully look at the numbers, at least 75% to 80% of the people own only 1 Apple product, i.e. iPhones. Not the entire ecosystem which is mentioned as strength of Apple. Given that this is the REALITY - i.e. most of the people do NOT own Apple's ecosystemsem, but just ONE product named iPhone, how can everyone keep saying that Apple's strength is ecosystem which MOST of its users ARE NOT using anyway?

    Am I missing something? if anyone can come up with more accurate numbers (which are drastically different from mine), I would be more than happy to stand corrected.

    Really? You don't understand that the Apple ecosystem is the combination of hardware, software and services?

    That even if you only own an iPhone the stickiness of the platform is due to the ecosystem that includes imessaging other Apple users, the ability to buy content from iTunes, the ability to back up to iCloud, the ability to pay using ApplePay, the free lifestyle apps like health, the iOS only apps, etc.

    Thats ignoring that if 20% of people own more than one device that means many households own 3 or more Apple devices.  A family of 4, using that 20-25% value means 2 iphones for the parents, two iPads/phones for the kids and a Mac?  

    Really?
    Owning one Apple device does not an ecosystem make.

    That would make it identical to Android and the whole point of of the ecosystem claim is to differentiate the platform from Android.

    Android users also use cloud services, send messages and purchase from Android Stores with the same stickiness.
    False.  Owning one device means the user has access to the Apple ecosystem because that ecosystem is designed to keep customers Apple owners.  To claim otherwise is to also claim that Microsoft never had a product and services ecosystem to try to lock people into the Windows platform when an entire household had only one Windows device.

    True.  Google has an ecosystem and Android is part of it.  Google has one also because of the desire to lock people into the google revenue stream.

    False.  Android doesn't enjoy the same sticiyness because Google allows full access to their ecosystem to iOS and Windows users.  Google wants to lock you into their revenue generating products...namely ads so they don't really care the retention rate of android if everyone else goes to Apple which still has google search as default.  Windows, with Bing as a default, is a different story but Microsoft isn't a competitor to Android anymore. Llikewise Google doesn't care  hardware stickiness.

    Apple devices have stickiness because Apple ecosystem features are mostly exclusive to Apple products.  Just like MS Office used to be a Windows exclusive and why it was a big deal for MS to promise support for the Mac to Steve Jobs.

    Access to the Apple ecosystem from other platforms/devices is grudging...like iTunes on Windows.

  • Reply 33 of 40
    nhtnht Posts: 4,429member

    avon b7 said:
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    This was also in the news recently but not picked up here. LOL:

    uk.businessinsider.com/huawei-could-overtake-apple-second-biggest-smartphone-canalys-data-2017-8

    I personally think there will be a supercycle and that is great because, if there is one, it shows at the very least, Apple is not losing users...

    ...Competition is good.

    Apple does not compete at the bottom end. Those who make or sell the most smartphones and those who make the most profitable and high end smartphones are two entirely separate entities.
    This article is based on Q2 data.

    Take a look at some Q1 data:

    www.counterpointresearch.com/afforadable-smartphones-increase-q1-2017/

    That huge increase in the affordable premium  is where the action was, not the bottom end. And that is where Apple doesn't really operate.

    Year on year, Apple is flat (see link in previous post). The pack is closing in on second position. In fact, in some regions Apple has already been bumped down the pecking order.

    Apple and Huawei are slugging it out in major European markets. Q2 saw Huawei take the round:

    https://www.canalys.com/newsroom/huawei-overtakes-apple-cee-xiaomi-rockets-top-five

    In some countries in Europe Huawei is consistently topping Apple:

    "According a GfK report, as of December 2016, Huawei’s North-East Europe market share surpassed 20%, while in Western Europe it reached nearly 15%. Its market share in has topped 20% in many European countries, including Finland, Holland, Belgium, Poland, Spain, Italy and the Czech Republic. For the Western Europe and North-east Europe markets, sales revenue and shipments continue to increase by nearly 100% year-on-year and are expected to maintain strong momentum."

    That was from the horse's mouth so take it at face value.

    www.huawei.com/en/news/2017/4/2017HAS-showcases-strong-growth

    I think Android in Spain is touching 80 or even 90%. Apple is suffering in some regions. Of course one of the biggest areas where it is not suffering is the US. If Huawei does get a carrier deal you can bet they won't be pushing bottom end phones.

    Yes, Huawei also makes low end phones but that isn't where its growth has been. In fact it has decided to pull out of the low end. Not because it doesn't make money there, it just doesn't make enough.

    This article makes it pretty clear that the bottom end isn't where Huawei is generating success:

    https://www.mobileworldlive.com/asia/asia-news/huawei-to-pull-out-of-low-end-smartphone-market/

    As for profits, I saw some numbers the other day that seemed to indicate that Apple was raking in 10% less of handset profits than at the end of 2016, probably as a result of what I just outlined: competitors are squaring up to Apple at the high end but also filling the affordable premium segment with quality phones, that are also profitable.

    We will soon have one iPhone refresh to take us full circle through to September 2018. A long year. That's a lot of weight to carry when, out of the gate, your competitors will also be releasing new hardware head on. Then there will be another wave for MWC 2018 another four months after that.

    Apple has to repeat what it has managed to do this year (largely on the back of the the Plus iPhones).

    The next refresh, plus iPhone 8 (or whatever it is called) might do the trick. Huawei might implode, there might be component shortages across the board. I don't know.

    What I do know is that there is a lot of anti Android talk that is not based on much real information at all. It's often the same codswallop that gets served up again and a again.

    What counts is competition. That is what we have. That can only be good for consumers.
    Funny, Apple’s demise is always next year. 
    No one mentioned 'demise' (or even doomed! LOL). You only need to read the post I was referring to to see the context.

    Of course, if there is anything factually wrong in what I said, I'm sure you'll set me straight.
    I think you’re being coy. You clearly suggested the cheap knockoff brands will soon be a serious threat to Apple. this is the exact same story we’ve heard from supporters of Knockoff Brand X every year. still waiting. 

    As for Huawei, no brand with a name most Americans can’t even pronounce by sight is going to be a domestic threat to the premium brand and ecosystem that is Apple

    Actually I have a question on this ecosystem being talked about so frequently in this forum. What does the Apple ecosystem consist of? And how many active users of that ecosystem? Let us try to put some numbers and see the big picture.

    1. iPhones - About 800 million to 1 billion?

    2. iPads - About 200 million?

    3. Macs (MBP, MacBook, iMac, iMac Pro, Mac Pro, minis all put together) - About 200 million?

    4. Airpods - 10 to 20 million?

    5. Apple Watch - 100 million?

    6. Apple Music - 30 million?

    7. Apple TV - I don't have any clue. Anyone can come up with numbers?

    8. iPods - Is it relevant anymore?

    9. Anything else important that I missed out? (App store does not count, because that is already included in iPhones and iPad because it is NOT open to any other product in the outside world)


    If we carefully look at the numbers, at least 75% to 80% of the people own only 1 Apple product, i.e. iPhones. Not the entire ecosystem which is mentioned as strength of Apple. Given that this is the REALITY - i.e. most of the people do NOT own Apple's ecosystemsem, but just ONE product named iPhone, how can everyone keep saying that Apple's strength is ecosystem which MOST of its users ARE NOT using anyway?

    Am I missing something? if anyone can come up with more accurate numbers (which are drastically different from mine), I would be more than happy to stand corrected.

    Really? You don't understand that the Apple ecosystem is the combination of hardware, software and services?

    That even if you only own an iPhone the stickiness of the platform is due to the ecosystem that includes imessaging other Apple users, the ability to buy content from iTunes, the ability to back up to iCloud, the ability to pay using ApplePay, the free lifestyle apps like health, the iOS only apps, etc.

    Thats ignoring that if 20% of people own more than one device that means many households own 3 or more Apple devices.  A family of 4, using that 20-25% value means 2 iphones for the parents, two iPads/phones for the kids and a Mac?  

    Really?
    Owning one Apple device does not an ecosystem make.

    That would make it identical to Android and the whole point of of the ecosystem claim is to differentiate the platform from Android.

    Android users also use cloud services, send messages and purchase from Android Stores with the same stickiness.

    Ah, I was about to say the same thing. You beat me to it. And regarding a family having 1 Mac and 2 iphones on an average, I accept that argument. Even accounting for it, at least 60% of iPhone users do NOT own any other product (not even a single one of iPad/Mac/Watch/TV/Airpods) from Apple. So the MAJORITY of iPhone users do NOT enjoy the ecosystem that people talk about here. The MAJORITY still owns ONLY ONE product from Apple, i.e. iPhone. This is NOT going to change anytime soon. So when you talk about eco system, please do keep in mind the bigger picture.
    Nope.  First, see above.  If you have an iPhone and use Apple Music, Videos, Apple apps, etc. the Apple ecosystem is at work making Apple device ownership sticky so the next single device you own is also likely Apple.

    An exclusive software and services ecosystem is an important tool for device manufacturers to keep users buying their gear.  Lack of this means it's easy for folks to switch to a competitor based on price, features or simply the desire for something different.  Like Samsung owner switching to Huawei.  

    The cost of switching is higher if you realize all your photos, movies and music are in iCloud.

    Second, people don't have to be in the same family to benefit from using the Apple ecosystem with each other.  iMessage, FaceTime, photo sharing, etc.
  • Reply 34 of 40
    nhtnht Posts: 4,429member
    Another comment to you Apple Ecosystem Deniers.

    What does it tell you that Google is willing to give Apple over half its Google Play store cut (30% of $17B app sales revenue) to stay as the default search engine?  And that Apple is willing to accept it?

    It should tell you the obvious:  

    Google's ecosystem is designed to lock in ad revenue and as nice as hardware and service revenue is, its secondary.  Letting folks buy Apple hardware doesn't really harm Google.

    Android and Android hardware ecosystems are defensive plays to protect ad sales.  Making money is just a bonus. Yah, it's worth billions. So?

    Likewise Apples ecosystem is designed to lock in device sales and as nice as service revenue is, it's secondary.  Letting Google search onto Apple devices doesn't really harm Apple...or at least not $3B worth of harm.

    Apple iCloud ecosystem services are defensive plays to protect hardware sales.  Making money is just a bonus.  Yah, it's worth billions. So?
  • Reply 35 of 40
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,656member
    avon b7 said:
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    This was also in the news recently but not picked up here. LOL:

    uk.businessinsider.com/huawei-could-overtake-apple-second-biggest-smartphone-canalys-data-2017-8

    I personally think there will be a supercycle and that is great because, if there is one, it shows at the very least, Apple is not losing users...

    ...Competition is good.

    Apple does not compete at the bottom end. Those who make or sell the most smartphones and those who make the most profitable and high end smartphones are two entirely separate entities.
    This article is based on Q2 data.

    Take a look at some Q1 data:

    www.counterpointresearch.com/afforadable-smartphones-increase-q1-2017/

    That huge increase in the affordable premium  is where the action was, not the bottom end. And that is where Apple doesn't really operate.

    Year on year, Apple is flat (see link in previous post). The pack is closing in on second position. In fact, in some regions Apple has already been bumped down the pecking order.

    Apple and Huawei are slugging it out in major European markets. Q2 saw Huawei take the round:

    https://www.canalys.com/newsroom/huawei-overtakes-apple-cee-xiaomi-rockets-top-five

    In some countries in Europe Huawei is consistently topping Apple:

    "According a GfK report, as of December 2016, Huawei’s North-East Europe market share surpassed 20%, while in Western Europe it reached nearly 15%. Its market share in has topped 20% in many European countries, including Finland, Holland, Belgium, Poland, Spain, Italy and the Czech Republic. For the Western Europe and North-east Europe markets, sales revenue and shipments continue to increase by nearly 100% year-on-year and are expected to maintain strong momentum."

    That was from the horse's mouth so take it at face value.

    www.huawei.com/en/news/2017/4/2017HAS-showcases-strong-growth

    I think Android in Spain is touching 80 or even 90%. Apple is suffering in some regions. Of course one of the biggest areas where it is not suffering is the US. If Huawei does get a carrier deal you can bet they won't be pushing bottom end phones.

    Yes, Huawei also makes low end phones but that isn't where its growth has been. In fact it has decided to pull out of the low end. Not because it doesn't make money there, it just doesn't make enough.

    This article makes it pretty clear that the bottom end isn't where Huawei is generating success:

    https://www.mobileworldlive.com/asia/asia-news/huawei-to-pull-out-of-low-end-smartphone-market/

    As for profits, I saw some numbers the other day that seemed to indicate that Apple was raking in 10% less of handset profits than at the end of 2016, probably as a result of what I just outlined: competitors are squaring up to Apple at the high end but also filling the affordable premium segment with quality phones, that are also profitable.

    We will soon have one iPhone refresh to take us full circle through to September 2018. A long year. That's a lot of weight to carry when, out of the gate, your competitors will also be releasing new hardware head on. Then there will be another wave for MWC 2018 another four months after that.

    Apple has to repeat what it has managed to do this year (largely on the back of the the Plus iPhones).

    The next refresh, plus iPhone 8 (or whatever it is called) might do the trick. Huawei might implode, there might be component shortages across the board. I don't know.

    What I do know is that there is a lot of anti Android talk that is not based on much real information at all. It's often the same codswallop that gets served up again and a again.

    What counts is competition. That is what we have. That can only be good for consumers.
    Funny, Apple’s demise is always next year. 
    No one mentioned 'demise' (or even doomed! LOL). You only need to read the post I was referring to to see the context.

    Of course, if there is anything factually wrong in what I said, I'm sure you'll set me straight.
    I think you’re being coy. You clearly suggested the cheap knockoff brands will soon be a serious threat to Apple. this is the exact same story we’ve heard from supporters of Knockoff Brand X every year. still waiting. 

    As for Huawei, no brand with a name most Americans can’t even pronounce by sight is going to be a domestic threat to the premium brand and ecosystem that is Apple. 
    LOL

    I was actually going to congratulate you on not using the word 'knock-off' but you just blew it. I guessed it's something you can't control now.

    I was just responding to a post  and filling in the bigger picture with some real information.

    As for Huawei not being a US domestic threat, I suggest you read this:

    http://fortune.com/huawei-china-smartphone/

    A threat it certainly is. If they take off in the US I don't know - and neither do you.

    I'm sure the affluent iPhone touting public of Finland thought exactly the same as you not so long ago.

    Now 'Huawei' Rolls off the tongue as easy as Nokia in most of the world. I'm sure the people in the US won't have that many problems pronouncing it.
    There are already "affordable premium" android devices in the US and have been for a while (called mid-tier by most folks) and if Huawei is taking share it's from them.  These aren't actually premium because they lack water resistance which is a godsend unless you are buying phones every two years.

    Which Huawei expects because they won't update Android more than a couple model years.  The Mate 7 (Oct 2014) won't get nougat and is stuck on marshmellow. In comparison the iPhone 5 (2012) has iOS 10.

    https://huaweidl.com/huawei-android-7-0-nougat-emui-5-0-firmware-updates/

    The Honor 8 is slower than any of the flagships (Android or iOS) and is comparable to the iPhone SE.  The Kirin 950 simply can't keep up with the Snapdragon 821 or the A10 in overall performance (mostly deficient in graphics power).  I buy these mid-tier phones for the kids, not because I think they are better, but because ScreenTime works better on Android than iOS.  The iPhone SE would be a much better buy.

    Huawei is next up in a long line of Samsung killers from China.  Better positioned because of Chinese government help but hampered in competing they the US for the same reasons.  So no, no significant take off in the US because they can't payoff carriers like the did in Europe.
    There is a gigantic difference between a device being available in a country and that device being picked up and actively pushed by a large carrier. It is like night and day.

    Water resistance is not a required characteristic for a premium device.

    For mid tier phones many users actually do upgrade every two years. It's one of the advantages of not breaking the bank on a premium phone and trying to use it for longer to squeeze more out if it on an economic level. That also puts the Android OS upgrade issue into perspective although people buy the phones, perfectly aware of the situation anyway.

    You should not be comparing any Honor phone with any Flagship phone. Honor is a sub-brand of Huawei and gets none of the fresh hot stuff. Honor has to wait for hand me downs of the important stuff. Huawei reserves those elements for it own branded flagships, hence the Honor 9 has just released with the Kirin 960 because the Kirin 970 is already rumoured to be in mass production. 

    The Honor 8 has been a record breaker for Honor and competed very well with other phones in its class.

    The Honor 9 has taken that competiveness to a new level. Is there anything in its class to top it? How many negative reviews have you seen?

    I use a low end Kirin and do not notice any speed issues. None. 

    No one has said the Kirin 960 is a slouch so the 970 will be a step even further ahead but for your average user the normal use of the phone is great from the 950 up. Phones have been fast enough for many users for a few years now. Being 'faster' isn't such a big deal until something comes along that weighs things down again.

    The 970 will bring some new elements into play (if rumours are to be believed) but I'd say graphics will get a major push in the Mate 10.  Along with locally resolved AI. Until it is announced though, it just pie in the sky.

    The iPhone SE is a niche phone because of screen size. Apple's biggest earners have been the Plus phones and an important selling point is the screen size. I'm sure an SE Plus would be a very hot seller but I doubt Apple wants to do that if it can avoid it.

    Huawei hasn't paid anyone off in Europe. They offer handset discounts to carriers depending on how much Huawei infrastructure they purchase. They are able to do that because they produce hardware and software for literally every element in the communications chain. Every single element.

    As for the 'long line' of Chinese Samsung killers. Can you name just one? Apart from Huawei. To be a 'Samsung killer' you need worldwide reach. AFAIK, Huawei is the only Chinese handset maker with that reach.

    Agreed with you all the points, except the last one. Actually BBK electronics (Oppo + Vivo + OnePlus) has made huge strides in improving their offline sales, not just in China but in other countries as well. So they are a legitimate threat to Samsung.

    Xiaomi was another one, which looked like would be a Samsung killer couple of years back. But they withdrew from the battle quite inexplicably on their own by NOT manufacturing enough handsets for sale, for reasons known only to them. They are on the rise again. But I don't really have any clue what their strategy for future would be (meaning would they retreat again on their own by manufacturing less handsets than they are capable of selling, or increase prices dramatically and put a self-goal - no one knows), so no comments on them.

    Oppo, Vivo, One Plus do not have the reach to affect Samsung worldwide although they are very strong in China.

    OppoStyle Support for Europe has shut down I think and everything gets referred to the main site. In Europe you see Huawei literally everywhere but although you see some other Chinese handsets it is still way off the presence Huawei has.

    Chinese brands seem to be looking to Europe to break out of their strongholds and Xiaomi un particular has seen some strong growth of late.

    I think Oppo, Vivo didn't register in the top five in Central and Eastern Europe in that latest Canalys report and to be considered a threat to Samsung they should at least be rubbing shoulders with Huawei worldwide. And even after that, there is still a way to go to reach Samsung.

    AFAIK, Huawei is the only brand that has set a public goal of topping Apple first then Samsung​ in sales. I think the timeframe they set was 2020.
  • Reply 36 of 40
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    This was also in the news recently but not picked up here. LOL:

    uk.businessinsider.com/huawei-could-overtake-apple-second-biggest-smartphone-canalys-data-2017-8

    I personally think there will be a supercycle and that is great because, if there is one, it shows at the very least, Apple is not losing users...

    ...Competition is good.

    Apple does not compete at the bottom end. Those who make or sell the most smartphones and those who make the most profitable and high end smartphones are two entirely separate entities.
    This article is based on Q2 data.

    Take a look at some Q1 data:

    www.counterpointresearch.com/afforadable-smartphones-increase-q1-2017/

    That huge increase in the affordable premium  is where the action was, not the bottom end. And that is where Apple doesn't really operate.

    Year on year, Apple is flat (see link in previous post). The pack is closing in on second position. In fact, in some regions Apple has already been bumped down the pecking order.

    Apple and Huawei are slugging it out in major European markets. Q2 saw Huawei take the round:

    https://www.canalys.com/newsroom/huawei-overtakes-apple-cee-xiaomi-rockets-top-five

    In some countries in Europe Huawei is consistently topping Apple:

    "According a GfK report, as of December 2016, Huawei’s North-East Europe market share surpassed 20%, while in Western Europe it reached nearly 15%. Its market share in has topped 20% in many European countries, including Finland, Holland, Belgium, Poland, Spain, Italy and the Czech Republic. For the Western Europe and North-east Europe markets, sales revenue and shipments continue to increase by nearly 100% year-on-year and are expected to maintain strong momentum."

    That was from the horse's mouth so take it at face value.

    www.huawei.com/en/news/2017/4/2017HAS-showcases-strong-growth

    I think Android in Spain is touching 80 or even 90%. Apple is suffering in some regions. Of course one of the biggest areas where it is not suffering is the US. If Huawei does get a carrier deal you can bet they won't be pushing bottom end phones.

    Yes, Huawei also makes low end phones but that isn't where its growth has been. In fact it has decided to pull out of the low end. Not because it doesn't make money there, it just doesn't make enough.

    This article makes it pretty clear that the bottom end isn't where Huawei is generating success:

    https://www.mobileworldlive.com/asia/asia-news/huawei-to-pull-out-of-low-end-smartphone-market/

    As for profits, I saw some numbers the other day that seemed to indicate that Apple was raking in 10% less of handset profits than at the end of 2016, probably as a result of what I just outlined: competitors are squaring up to Apple at the high end but also filling the affordable premium segment with quality phones, that are also profitable.

    We will soon have one iPhone refresh to take us full circle through to September 2018. A long year. That's a lot of weight to carry when, out of the gate, your competitors will also be releasing new hardware head on. Then there will be another wave for MWC 2018 another four months after that.

    Apple has to repeat what it has managed to do this year (largely on the back of the the Plus iPhones).

    The next refresh, plus iPhone 8 (or whatever it is called) might do the trick. Huawei might implode, there might be component shortages across the board. I don't know.

    What I do know is that there is a lot of anti Android talk that is not based on much real information at all. It's often the same codswallop that gets served up again and a again.

    What counts is competition. That is what we have. That can only be good for consumers.
    Funny, Apple’s demise is always next year. 
    No one mentioned 'demise' (or even doomed! LOL). You only need to read the post I was referring to to see the context.

    Of course, if there is anything factually wrong in what I said, I'm sure you'll set me straight.
    I think you’re being coy. You clearly suggested the cheap knockoff brands will soon be a serious threat to Apple. this is the exact same story we’ve heard from supporters of Knockoff Brand X every year. still waiting. 

    As for Huawei, no brand with a name most Americans can’t even pronounce by sight is going to be a domestic threat to the premium brand and ecosystem that is Apple

    Actually I have a question on this ecosystem being talked about so frequently in this forum. What does the Apple ecosystem consist of? And how many active users of that ecosystem? Let us try to put some numbers and see the big picture.

    1. iPhones - About 800 million to 1 billion?

    2. iPads - About 200 million?

    3. Macs (MBP, MacBook, iMac, iMac Pro, Mac Pro, minis all put together) - About 200 million?

    4. Airpods - 10 to 20 million?

    5. Apple Watch - 100 million?

    6. Apple Music - 30 million?

    7. Apple TV - I don't have any clue. Anyone can come up with numbers?

    8. iPods - Is it relevant anymore?

    9. Anything else important that I missed out? (App store does not count, because that is already included in iPhones and iPad because it is NOT open to any other product in the outside world)


    If we carefully look at the numbers, at least 75% to 80% of the people own only 1 Apple product, i.e. iPhones. Not the entire ecosystem which is mentioned as strength of Apple. Given that this is the REALITY - i.e. most of the people do NOT own Apple's ecosystemsem, but just ONE product named iPhone, how can everyone keep saying that Apple's strength is ecosystem which MOST of its users ARE NOT using anyway?

    Am I missing something? if anyone can come up with more accurate numbers (which are drastically different from mine), I would be more than happy to stand corrected.

    Really? You don't understand that the Apple ecosystem is the combination of hardware, software and services?

    That even if you only own an iPhone the stickiness of the platform is due to the ecosystem that includes imessaging other Apple users, the ability to buy content from iTunes, the ability to back up to iCloud, the ability to pay using ApplePay, the free lifestyle apps like health, the iOS only apps, etc.

    Thats ignoring that if 20% of people own more than one device that means many households own 3 or more Apple devices.  A family of 4, using that 20-25% value means 2 iphones for the parents, two iPads/phones for the kids and a Mac?  

    Really?
    Owning one Apple device does not an ecosystem make.

    That would make it identical to Android and the whole point of of the ecosystem claim is to differentiate the platform from Android.

    Android users also use cloud services, send messages and purchase from Android Stores with the same stickiness.
    False.  Owning one device means the user has access to the Apple ecosystem because that ecosystem is designed to keep customers Apple owners.  To claim otherwise is to also claim that Microsoft never had a product and services ecosystem to try to lock people into the Windows platform when an entire household had only one Windows device.

    True.  Google has an ecosystem and Android is part of it.  Google has one also because of the desire to lock people into the google revenue stream.

    False.  Android doesn't enjoy the same sticiyness because Google allows full access to their ecosystem to iOS and Windows users.  Google wants to lock you into their revenue generating products...namely ads so they don't really care the retention rate of android if everyone else goes to Apple which still has google search as default.  Windows, with Bing as a default, is a different story but Microsoft isn't a competitor to Android anymore. Llikewise Google doesn't care  hardware stickiness.

    Apple devices have stickiness because Apple ecosystem features are mostly exclusive to Apple products.  Just like MS Office used to be a Windows exclusive and why it was a big deal for MS to promise support for the Mac to Steve Jobs.

    Access to the Apple ecosystem from other platforms/devices is grudging...like iTunes on Windows.
    Yes, that is exactly my point is. One device (with the associated software) does NOT make an ecosystem. An ecosystem has to be multiple devices working together to provide an integrated experience. When we are talking about one device AND the equivalent software features are provided by a device competing with it, there is NO ecosystem at play. It is just one device Vs another (which provides the same features in same/different ways). Only when the integration with other devices come into picture, the ecosystem gets into effect.
    edited August 2017
  • Reply 37 of 40
    nhtnht Posts: 4,429member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    This was also in the news recently but not picked up here. LOL:

    uk.businessinsider.com/huawei-could-overtake-apple-second-biggest-smartphone-canalys-data-2017-8

    I personally think there will be a supercycle and that is great because, if there is one, it shows at the very least, Apple is not losing users...

    ...Competition is good.

    Apple does not compete at the bottom end. Those who make or sell the most smartphones and those who make the most profitable and high end smartphones are two entirely separate entities.
    This article is based on Q2 data.

    Take a look at some Q1 data:

    www.counterpointresearch.com/afforadable-smartphones-increase-q1-2017/

    That huge increase in the affordable premium  is where the action was, not the bottom end. And that is where Apple doesn't really operate.

    Year on year, Apple is flat (see link in previous post). The pack is closing in on second position. In fact, in some regions Apple has already been bumped down the pecking order.

    Apple and Huawei are slugging it out in major European markets. Q2 saw Huawei take the round:

    https://www.canalys.com/newsroom/huawei-overtakes-apple-cee-xiaomi-rockets-top-five

    In some countries in Europe Huawei is consistently topping Apple:

    "According a GfK report, as of December 2016, Huawei’s North-East Europe market share surpassed 20%, while in Western Europe it reached nearly 15%. Its market share in has topped 20% in many European countries, including Finland, Holland, Belgium, Poland, Spain, Italy and the Czech Republic. For the Western Europe and North-east Europe markets, sales revenue and shipments continue to increase by nearly 100% year-on-year and are expected to maintain strong momentum."

    That was from the horse's mouth so take it at face value.

    www.huawei.com/en/news/2017/4/2017HAS-showcases-strong-growth

    I think Android in Spain is touching 80 or even 90%. Apple is suffering in some regions. Of course one of the biggest areas where it is not suffering is the US. If Huawei does get a carrier deal you can bet they won't be pushing bottom end phones.

    Yes, Huawei also makes low end phones but that isn't where its growth has been. In fact it has decided to pull out of the low end. Not because it doesn't make money there, it just doesn't make enough.

    This article makes it pretty clear that the bottom end isn't where Huawei is generating success:

    https://www.mobileworldlive.com/asia/asia-news/huawei-to-pull-out-of-low-end-smartphone-market/

    As for profits, I saw some numbers the other day that seemed to indicate that Apple was raking in 10% less of handset profits than at the end of 2016, probably as a result of what I just outlined: competitors are squaring up to Apple at the high end but also filling the affordable premium segment with quality phones, that are also profitable.

    We will soon have one iPhone refresh to take us full circle through to September 2018. A long year. That's a lot of weight to carry when, out of the gate, your competitors will also be releasing new hardware head on. Then there will be another wave for MWC 2018 another four months after that.

    Apple has to repeat what it has managed to do this year (largely on the back of the the Plus iPhones).

    The next refresh, plus iPhone 8 (or whatever it is called) might do the trick. Huawei might implode, there might be component shortages across the board. I don't know.

    What I do know is that there is a lot of anti Android talk that is not based on much real information at all. It's often the same codswallop that gets served up again and a again.

    What counts is competition. That is what we have. That can only be good for consumers.
    Funny, Apple’s demise is always next year. 
    No one mentioned 'demise' (or even doomed! LOL). You only need to read the post I was referring to to see the context.

    Of course, if there is anything factually wrong in what I said, I'm sure you'll set me straight.
    I think you’re being coy. You clearly suggested the cheap knockoff brands will soon be a serious threat to Apple. this is the exact same story we’ve heard from supporters of Knockoff Brand X every year. still waiting. 

    As for Huawei, no brand with a name most Americans can’t even pronounce by sight is going to be a domestic threat to the premium brand and ecosystem that is Apple. 
    LOL

    I was actually going to congratulate you on not using the word 'knock-off' but you just blew it. I guessed it's something you can't control now.

    I was just responding to a post  and filling in the bigger picture with some real information.

    As for Huawei not being a US domestic threat, I suggest you read this:

    http://fortune.com/huawei-china-smartphone/

    A threat it certainly is. If they take off in the US I don't know - and neither do you.

    I'm sure the affluent iPhone touting public of Finland thought exactly the same as you not so long ago.

    Now 'Huawei' Rolls off the tongue as easy as Nokia in most of the world. I'm sure the people in the US won't have that many problems pronouncing it.
    There are already "affordable premium" android devices in the US and have been for a while (called mid-tier by most folks) and if Huawei is taking share it's from them.  These aren't actually premium because they lack water resistance which is a godsend unless you are buying phones every two years.

    Which Huawei expects because they won't update Android more than a couple model years.  The Mate 7 (Oct 2014) won't get nougat and is stuck on marshmellow. In comparison the iPhone 5 (2012) has iOS 10.

    https://huaweidl.com/huawei-android-7-0-nougat-emui-5-0-firmware-updates/

    The Honor 8 is slower than any of the flagships (Android or iOS) and is comparable to the iPhone SE.  The Kirin 950 simply can't keep up with the Snapdragon 821 or the A10 in overall performance (mostly deficient in graphics power).  I buy these mid-tier phones for the kids, not because I think they are better, but because ScreenTime works better on Android than iOS.  The iPhone SE would be a much better buy.

    Huawei is next up in a long line of Samsung killers from China.  Better positioned because of Chinese government help but hampered in competing they the US for the same reasons.  So no, no significant take off in the US because they can't payoff carriers like the did in Europe.
    There is a gigantic difference between a device being available in a country and that device being picked up and actively pushed by a large carrier. It is like night and day.

    Water resistance is not a required characteristic for a premium device.

    For mid tier phones many users actually do upgrade every two years. It's one of the advantages of not breaking the bank on a premium phone and trying to use it for longer to squeeze more out if it on an economic level. That also puts the Android OS upgrade issue into perspective although people buy the phones, perfectly aware of the situation anyway.

    You should not be comparing any Honor phone with any Flagship phone. Honor is a sub-brand of Huawei and gets none of the fresh hot stuff. Honor has to wait for hand me downs of the important stuff. Huawei reserves those elements for it own branded flagships, hence the Honor 9 has just released with the Kirin 960 because the Kirin 970 is already rumoured to be in mass production. 

    The Honor 8 has been a record breaker for Honor and competed very well with other phones in its class.

    The Honor 9 has taken that competiveness to a new level. Is there anything in its class to top it? How many negative reviews have you seen?

    I use a low end Kirin and do not notice any speed issues. None. 

    No one has said the Kirin 960 is a slouch so the 970 will be a step even further ahead but for your average user the normal use of the phone is great from the 950 up. Phones have been fast enough for many users for a few years now. Being 'faster' isn't such a big deal until something comes along that weighs things down again.

    The 970 will bring some new elements into play (if rumours are to be believed) but I'd say graphics will get a major push in the Mate 10.  Along with locally resolved AI. Until it is announced though, it just pie in the sky.

    The iPhone SE is a niche phone because of screen size. Apple's biggest earners have been the Plus phones and an important selling point is the screen size. I'm sure an SE Plus would be a very hot seller but I doubt Apple wants to do that if it can avoid it.

    Huawei hasn't paid anyone off in Europe. They offer handset discounts to carriers depending on how much Huawei infrastructure they purchase. They are able to do that because they produce hardware and software for literally every element in the communications chain. Every single element.

    As for the 'long line' of Chinese Samsung killers. Can you name just one? Apart from Huawei. To be a 'Samsung killer' you need worldwide reach. AFAIK, Huawei is the only Chinese handset maker with that reach.

    Agreed with you all the points, except the last one. Actually BBK electronics (Oppo + Vivo + OnePlus) has made huge strides in improving their offline sales, not just in China but in other countries as well. So they are a legitimate threat to Samsung.

    Xiaomi was another one, which looked like would be a Samsung killer couple of years back. But they withdrew from the battle quite inexplicably on their own by NOT manufacturing enough handsets for sale, for reasons known only to them. They are on the rise again. But I don't really have any clue what their strategy for future would be (meaning would they retreat again on their own by manufacturing less handsets than they are capable of selling, or increase prices dramatically and put a self-goal - no one knows), so no comments on them.

    Oppo, Vivo, One Plus do not have the reach to affect Samsung worldwide although they are very strong in China.

    OppoStyle Support for Europe has shut down I think and everything gets referred to the main site. In Europe you see Huawei literally everywhere but although you see some other Chinese handsets it is still way off the presence Huawei has.

    Chinese brands seem to be looking to Europe to break out of their strongholds and Xiaomi un particular has seen some strong growth of late.

    I think Oppo, Vivo didn't register in the top five in Central and Eastern Europe in that latest Canalys report and to be considered a threat to Samsung they should at least be rubbing shoulders with Huawei worldwide. And even after that, there is still a way to go to reach Samsung.

    AFAIK, Huawei is the only brand that has set a public goal of topping Apple first then Samsung​ in sales. I think the timeframe they set was 2020.
    Huawei has zero network reach in the US and can't do the equipment bundling here that the Europeans allowed.  They don't have as easy a task competing with Samsung.  Given they also lack any significant ecosystem advantage their hardware has to compete against Samsung on an equal basis without the brand name awareness.
  • Reply 38 of 40
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,656member
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    This was also in the news recently but not picked up here. LOL:

    uk.businessinsider.com/huawei-could-overtake-apple-second-biggest-smartphone-canalys-data-2017-8

    I personally think there will be a supercycle and that is great because, if there is one, it shows at the very least, Apple is not losing users...

    ...Competition is good.

    Apple does not compete at the bottom end. Those who make or sell the most smartphones and those who make the most profitable and high end smartphones are two entirely separate entities.
    This article is based on Q2 data.

    Take a look at some Q1 data:

    www.counterpointresearch.com/afforadable-smartphones-increase-q1-2017/

    That huge increase in the affordable premium  is where the action was, not the bottom end. And that is where Apple doesn't really operate.

    Year on year, Apple is flat (see link in previous post). The pack is closing in on second position. In fact, in some regions Apple has already been bumped down the pecking order.

    Apple and Huawei are slugging it out in major European markets. Q2 saw Huawei take the round:

    https://www.canalys.com/newsroom/huawei-overtakes-apple-cee-xiaomi-rockets-top-five

    In some countries in Europe Huawei is consistently topping Apple:

    "According a GfK report, as of December 2016, Huawei’s North-East Europe market share surpassed 20%, while in Western Europe it reached nearly 15%. Its market share in has topped 20% in many European countries, including Finland, Holland, Belgium, Poland, Spain, Italy and the Czech Republic. For the Western Europe and North-east Europe markets, sales revenue and shipments continue to increase by nearly 100% year-on-year and are expected to maintain strong momentum."

    That was from the horse's mouth so take it at face value.

    www.huawei.com/en/news/2017/4/2017HAS-showcases-strong-growth

    I think Android in Spain is touching 80 or even 90%. Apple is suffering in some regions. Of course one of the biggest areas where it is not suffering is the US. If Huawei does get a carrier deal you can bet they won't be pushing bottom end phones.

    Yes, Huawei also makes low end phones but that isn't where its growth has been. In fact it has decided to pull out of the low end. Not because it doesn't make money there, it just doesn't make enough.

    This article makes it pretty clear that the bottom end isn't where Huawei is generating success:

    https://www.mobileworldlive.com/asia/asia-news/huawei-to-pull-out-of-low-end-smartphone-market/

    As for profits, I saw some numbers the other day that seemed to indicate that Apple was raking in 10% less of handset profits than at the end of 2016, probably as a result of what I just outlined: competitors are squaring up to Apple at the high end but also filling the affordable premium segment with quality phones, that are also profitable.

    We will soon have one iPhone refresh to take us full circle through to September 2018. A long year. That's a lot of weight to carry when, out of the gate, your competitors will also be releasing new hardware head on. Then there will be another wave for MWC 2018 another four months after that.

    Apple has to repeat what it has managed to do this year (largely on the back of the the Plus iPhones).

    The next refresh, plus iPhone 8 (or whatever it is called) might do the trick. Huawei might implode, there might be component shortages across the board. I don't know.

    What I do know is that there is a lot of anti Android talk that is not based on much real information at all. It's often the same codswallop that gets served up again and a again.

    What counts is competition. That is what we have. That can only be good for consumers.
    Funny, Apple’s demise is always next year. 
    No one mentioned 'demise' (or even doomed! LOL). You only need to read the post I was referring to to see the context.

    Of course, if there is anything factually wrong in what I said, I'm sure you'll set me straight.
    I think you’re being coy. You clearly suggested the cheap knockoff brands will soon be a serious threat to Apple. this is the exact same story we’ve heard from supporters of Knockoff Brand X every year. still waiting. 

    As for Huawei, no brand with a name most Americans can’t even pronounce by sight is going to be a domestic threat to the premium brand and ecosystem that is Apple. 
    LOL

    I was actually going to congratulate you on not using the word 'knock-off' but you just blew it. I guessed it's something you can't control now.

    I was just responding to a post  and filling in the bigger picture with some real information.

    As for Huawei not being a US domestic threat, I suggest you read this:

    http://fortune.com/huawei-china-smartphone/

    A threat it certainly is. If they take off in the US I don't know - and neither do you.

    I'm sure the affluent iPhone touting public of Finland thought exactly the same as you not so long ago.

    Now 'Huawei' Rolls off the tongue as easy as Nokia in most of the world. I'm sure the people in the US won't have that many problems pronouncing it.
    There are already "affordable premium" android devices in the US and have been for a while (called mid-tier by most folks) and if Huawei is taking share it's from them.  These aren't actually premium because they lack water resistance which is a godsend unless you are buying phones every two years.

    Which Huawei expects because they won't update Android more than a couple model years.  The Mate 7 (Oct 2014) won't get nougat and is stuck on marshmellow. In comparison the iPhone 5 (2012) has iOS 10.

    https://huaweidl.com/huawei-android-7-0-nougat-emui-5-0-firmware-updates/

    The Honor 8 is slower than any of the flagships (Android or iOS) and is comparable to the iPhone SE.  The Kirin 950 simply can't keep up with the Snapdragon 821 or the A10 in overall performance (mostly deficient in graphics power).  I buy these mid-tier phones for the kids, not because I think they are better, but because ScreenTime works better on Android than iOS.  The iPhone SE would be a much better buy.

    Huawei is next up in a long line of Samsung killers from China.  Better positioned because of Chinese government help but hampered in competing they the US for the same reasons.  So no, no significant take off in the US because they can't payoff carriers like the did in Europe.
    There is a gigantic difference between a device being available in a country and that device being picked up and actively pushed by a large carrier. It is like night and day.

    Water resistance is not a required characteristic for a premium device.

    For mid tier phones many users actually do upgrade every two years. It's one of the advantages of not breaking the bank on a premium phone and trying to use it for longer to squeeze more out if it on an economic level. That also puts the Android OS upgrade issue into perspective although people buy the phones, perfectly aware of the situation anyway.

    You should not be comparing any Honor phone with any Flagship phone. Honor is a sub-brand of Huawei and gets none of the fresh hot stuff. Honor has to wait for hand me downs of the important stuff. Huawei reserves those elements for it own branded flagships, hence the Honor 9 has just released with the Kirin 960 because the Kirin 970 is already rumoured to be in mass production. 

    The Honor 8 has been a record breaker for Honor and competed very well with other phones in its class.

    The Honor 9 has taken that competiveness to a new level. Is there anything in its class to top it? How many negative reviews have you seen?

    I use a low end Kirin and do not notice any speed issues. None. 

    No one has said the Kirin 960 is a slouch so the 970 will be a step even further ahead but for your average user the normal use of the phone is great from the 950 up. Phones have been fast enough for many users for a few years now. Being 'faster' isn't such a big deal until something comes along that weighs things down again.

    The 970 will bring some new elements into play (if rumours are to be believed) but I'd say graphics will get a major push in the Mate 10.  Along with locally resolved AI. Until it is announced though, it just pie in the sky.

    The iPhone SE is a niche phone because of screen size. Apple's biggest earners have been the Plus phones and an important selling point is the screen size. I'm sure an SE Plus would be a very hot seller but I doubt Apple wants to do that if it can avoid it.

    Huawei hasn't paid anyone off in Europe. They offer handset discounts to carriers depending on how much Huawei infrastructure they purchase. They are able to do that because they produce hardware and software for literally every element in the communications chain. Every single element.

    As for the 'long line' of Chinese Samsung killers. Can you name just one? Apart from Huawei. To be a 'Samsung killer' you need worldwide reach. AFAIK, Huawei is the only Chinese handset maker with that reach.

    Agreed with you all the points, except the last one. Actually BBK electronics (Oppo + Vivo + OnePlus) has made huge strides in improving their offline sales, not just in China but in other countries as well. So they are a legitimate threat to Samsung.

    Xiaomi was another one, which looked like would be a Samsung killer couple of years back. But they withdrew from the battle quite inexplicably on their own by NOT manufacturing enough handsets for sale, for reasons known only to them. They are on the rise again. But I don't really have any clue what their strategy for future would be (meaning would they retreat again on their own by manufacturing less handsets than they are capable of selling, or increase prices dramatically and put a self-goal - no one knows), so no comments on them.

    Oppo, Vivo, One Plus do not have the reach to affect Samsung worldwide although they are very strong in China.

    OppoStyle Support for Europe has shut down I think and everything gets referred to the main site. In Europe you see Huawei literally everywhere but although you see some other Chinese handsets it is still way off the presence Huawei has.

    Chinese brands seem to be looking to Europe to break out of their strongholds and Xiaomi un particular has seen some strong growth of late.

    I think Oppo, Vivo didn't register in the top five in Central and Eastern Europe in that latest Canalys report and to be considered a threat to Samsung they should at least be rubbing shoulders with Huawei worldwide. And even after that, there is still a way to go to reach Samsung.

    AFAIK, Huawei is the only brand that has set a public goal of topping Apple first then Samsung​ in sales. I think the timeframe they set was 2020.
    Huawei has zero network reach in the US and can't do the equipment bundling here that the Europeans allowed.  They don't have as easy a task competing with Samsung.  Given they also lack any significant ecosystem advantage their hardware has to compete against Samsung on an equal basis without the brand name awareness.
    That has been the main impediment to getting a foothold in the US for the company thus far.

    Failing to get their backbone infrastructure into the US, the next best option to is get a deal with carriers. That seems to be on the cards and if it goes through will be very important.

    The P10 was not even released in the US because of the current situation but clearly the plan is to get the Mate 10 rolling and follow up with the P11 early next year.

    Huawei cannot truly realise its goals without a real presence in the US.

    There have been rumours of them buying HPE but rumours are rumours. They have recently moved into laptops too.

    If the AT&T deal goes through it will be a big deal.
    edited August 2017
  • Reply 39 of 40
    nhtnht Posts: 4,429member
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    This was also in the news recently but not picked up here. LOL:

    uk.businessinsider.com/huawei-could-overtake-apple-second-biggest-smartphone-canalys-data-2017-8

    I personally think there will be a supercycle and that is great because, if there is one, it shows at the very least, Apple is not losing users...

    ...Competition is good.

    Apple does not compete at the bottom end. Those who make or sell the most smartphones and those who make the most profitable and high end smartphones are two entirely separate entities.
    This article is based on Q2 data.

    Take a look at some Q1 data:

    www.counterpointresearch.com/afforadable-smartphones-increase-q1-2017/

    That huge increase in the affordable premium  is where the action was, not the bottom end. And that is where Apple doesn't really operate.

    Year on year, Apple is flat (see link in previous post). The pack is closing in on second position. In fact, in some regions Apple has already been bumped down the pecking order.

    Apple and Huawei are slugging it out in major European markets. Q2 saw Huawei take the round:

    https://www.canalys.com/newsroom/huawei-overtakes-apple-cee-xiaomi-rockets-top-five

    In some countries in Europe Huawei is consistently topping Apple:

    "According a GfK report, as of December 2016, Huawei’s North-East Europe market share surpassed 20%, while in Western Europe it reached nearly 15%. Its market share in has topped 20% in many European countries, including Finland, Holland, Belgium, Poland, Spain, Italy and the Czech Republic. For the Western Europe and North-east Europe markets, sales revenue and shipments continue to increase by nearly 100% year-on-year and are expected to maintain strong momentum."

    That was from the horse's mouth so take it at face value.

    www.huawei.com/en/news/2017/4/2017HAS-showcases-strong-growth

    I think Android in Spain is touching 80 or even 90%. Apple is suffering in some regions. Of course one of the biggest areas where it is not suffering is the US. If Huawei does get a carrier deal you can bet they won't be pushing bottom end phones.

    Yes, Huawei also makes low end phones but that isn't where its growth has been. In fact it has decided to pull out of the low end. Not because it doesn't make money there, it just doesn't make enough.

    This article makes it pretty clear that the bottom end isn't where Huawei is generating success:

    https://www.mobileworldlive.com/asia/asia-news/huawei-to-pull-out-of-low-end-smartphone-market/

    As for profits, I saw some numbers the other day that seemed to indicate that Apple was raking in 10% less of handset profits than at the end of 2016, probably as a result of what I just outlined: competitors are squaring up to Apple at the high end but also filling the affordable premium segment with quality phones, that are also profitable.

    We will soon have one iPhone refresh to take us full circle through to September 2018. A long year. That's a lot of weight to carry when, out of the gate, your competitors will also be releasing new hardware head on. Then there will be another wave for MWC 2018 another four months after that.

    Apple has to repeat what it has managed to do this year (largely on the back of the the Plus iPhones).

    The next refresh, plus iPhone 8 (or whatever it is called) might do the trick. Huawei might implode, there might be component shortages across the board. I don't know.

    What I do know is that there is a lot of anti Android talk that is not based on much real information at all. It's often the same codswallop that gets served up again and a again.

    What counts is competition. That is what we have. That can only be good for consumers.
    Funny, Apple’s demise is always next year. 
    No one mentioned 'demise' (or even doomed! LOL). You only need to read the post I was referring to to see the context.

    Of course, if there is anything factually wrong in what I said, I'm sure you'll set me straight.
    I think you’re being coy. You clearly suggested the cheap knockoff brands will soon be a serious threat to Apple. this is the exact same story we’ve heard from supporters of Knockoff Brand X every year. still waiting. 

    As for Huawei, no brand with a name most Americans can’t even pronounce by sight is going to be a domestic threat to the premium brand and ecosystem that is Apple

    Actually I have a question on this ecosystem being talked about so frequently in this forum. What does the Apple ecosystem consist of? And how many active users of that ecosystem? Let us try to put some numbers and see the big picture.

    1. iPhones - About 800 million to 1 billion?

    2. iPads - About 200 million?

    3. Macs (MBP, MacBook, iMac, iMac Pro, Mac Pro, minis all put together) - About 200 million?

    4. Airpods - 10 to 20 million?

    5. Apple Watch - 100 million?

    6. Apple Music - 30 million?

    7. Apple TV - I don't have any clue. Anyone can come up with numbers?

    8. iPods - Is it relevant anymore?

    9. Anything else important that I missed out? (App store does not count, because that is already included in iPhones and iPad because it is NOT open to any other product in the outside world)


    If we carefully look at the numbers, at least 75% to 80% of the people own only 1 Apple product, i.e. iPhones. Not the entire ecosystem which is mentioned as strength of Apple. Given that this is the REALITY - i.e. most of the people do NOT own Apple's ecosystemsem, but just ONE product named iPhone, how can everyone keep saying that Apple's strength is ecosystem which MOST of its users ARE NOT using anyway?

    Am I missing something? if anyone can come up with more accurate numbers (which are drastically different from mine), I would be more than happy to stand corrected.

    Really? You don't understand that the Apple ecosystem is the combination of hardware, software and services?

    That even if you only own an iPhone the stickiness of the platform is due to the ecosystem that includes imessaging other Apple users, the ability to buy content from iTunes, the ability to back up to iCloud, the ability to pay using ApplePay, the free lifestyle apps like health, the iOS only apps, etc.

    Thats ignoring that if 20% of people own more than one device that means many households own 3 or more Apple devices.  A family of 4, using that 20-25% value means 2 iphones for the parents, two iPads/phones for the kids and a Mac?  

    Really?
    Owning one Apple device does not an ecosystem make.

    That would make it identical to Android and the whole point of of the ecosystem claim is to differentiate the platform from Android.

    Android users also use cloud services, send messages and purchase from Android Stores with the same stickiness.
    False.  Owning one device means the user has access to the Apple ecosystem because that ecosystem is designed to keep customers Apple owners.  To claim otherwise is to also claim that Microsoft never had a product and services ecosystem to try to lock people into the Windows platform when an entire household had only one Windows device.

    True.  Google has an ecosystem and Android is part of it.  Google has one also because of the desire to lock people into the google revenue stream.

    False.  Android doesn't enjoy the same sticiyness because Google allows full access to their ecosystem to iOS and Windows users.  Google wants to lock you into their revenue generating products...namely ads so they don't really care the retention rate of android if everyone else goes to Apple which still has google search as default.  Windows, with Bing as a default, is a different story but Microsoft isn't a competitor to Android anymore. Llikewise Google doesn't care  hardware stickiness.

    Apple devices have stickiness because Apple ecosystem features are mostly exclusive to Apple products.  Just like MS Office used to be a Windows exclusive and why it was a big deal for MS to promise support for the Mac to Steve Jobs.

    Access to the Apple ecosystem from other platforms/devices is grudging...like iTunes on Windows.
    Yes, that is exactly my point is. One device (with the associated software) does NOT make an ecosystem. An ecosystem has to be multiple devices working together to provide an integrated experience. When we are talking about one device AND the equivalent software features are provided by a device competing with it, there is NO ecosystem at play. It is just one device Vs another (which provides the same features in same/different ways). Only when the integration with other devices come into picture, the ecosystem gets into effect.
    False.  

    Apple has a ecosystem in one device with hardware, operating system, App Store, music store, backup, cloud storage, etc. that provides an integrated experience.

    Samsung has a hardware device that largely is dependent on Google's ecosystem and lacks this competitive advantage. Something they tried to mitigate with their own skin, apps, stores, etc but is largely unsuccessful and unable to really differentiate with other Android manufacturers.


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