Samsung's Galaxy Note 8 gets positive reviews, comparisons with iPhone 7 Plus 'Portrait' m...

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  • Reply 21 of 44
    nht said:
    EngDev said:
    nht said:
    EngDev said:
    macseeker said:
    Seems like the iPhone 7+ picture is sharper.


    Source: Macworld
    In this case the iPhone is applying blur and Note 8 isn't.  The iPhone is attempting to do a very thin DOF with focus only on the face.  It's as the more aggressive of the two in terms of attempting bokeh.  Also, it appears that the iPhone missed focus in this capture.  I wonder if she was moving during the shot.

    Whether her chest would be in focus or not in a real DSLR depends on how busty she is.  Not very so likely in focus.  

    The Note 8 is obviously less aggressive as seen in this comparison where the iPhone gets it more right but the Note doesn't


    Both seem to have problems with blur depending on the scenario. I think Macworld did a decent job outlining these cases. They're right about the iPhone focusing too much on the face.
    Not when it's called "Portrait Mode".  Typically the face is the thing you want to get in focus for portraits.  In particular, the eyes.  With a thin DOF even ears are out of focus.  Here's an example.  Eyes in focus, ears not.



    Often pros do additional post processing to make the eyes pop even more.



    Eyes in focus, ears and shirt not.


    TL;DR;  Its called Portrait Mode.  Focusing on the face is entirely the point.
    Yeah, but seeing how it would perform in extreme cases gives an idea of how well that algorithm performs in the majority of cases.
    You can clearly see that spotty DoF effect application from Note phone, which clearly tells you that Sammy did not nail reliable depth mask generation, and hence, the effect sucks so much that it is unusable. In other words, it is what Sammy normally excels at - creating a software feature/tool that no one is going to use, because results are rarely good. THAT is a difference between Apple and Sammy. The difference "nominally" is small. But in reality, if that is how Note generates depth masks, the result is going to suck big time, while for Apple DoF effect is going to be usable 90-95% of time.
    edited September 2017 tmaywatto_cobra
  • Reply 22 of 44
    nhtnht Posts: 4,436member
    Yeah, but seeing how it would perform in extreme cases gives an idea of how well that algorithm performs in the majority of cases.
    You can clearly see that spotty DoF effect application from Note phone, which clearly tells you that Sammy did not nail reliable depth mask generation, and hence, the effect sucks so much that it is unusable. In other words, it is what Sammy normally excels at - creating a software feature/tool that no one is going to use, because results are rarely good. THAT is a difference between Apple and Sammy. The difference "nominally" is small. But in reality, if that is how Note generates depth masks, the result is going to suck big time, while for Apple DoF effect is going to be usable 90-95% of time.
    In Samsungs "defense" they called it "Live Focus" which essentially means nothing so they kinda sorta delivered what they promised.  A tool that maybe, maybe not blurs the background in a useful way.

    watto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 44
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    jbdragon said:
    tmay said:
    EngDev said:
    macseeker said:
    Seems like the iPhone 7+ picture is sharper.


    Source: Macworld
    Expect so see more "slices" in the computational process as performance allows in the future. so better depth of field effect.

    I prefer the colors of the 7 Plus, though it would be difficult to ascertain the most realistic without a reference color source in each photo.
    From those pictures, it looks to me like the Note 8 has the better pictures. We'll have to compare to the new iPhone which is only fair. I can't stand the fingerprint location on that Note 8. Up high and to the right. So OK for right handed, and sucks for left handed. Still have all the problems of it being on the back. You have to pick it up to unlock the thing if it's just sitting on the table. Can't access it in a car mount.

    What's the point of the Note again, at least these days. Samesung started copying Apple. In the past with Samesung, it was 1 size S series and if you wanted the larger phone, you went and got the larger Note. Then Apple came out with the iPhone and the iPhone PLUS, and what does Samesung do. They Come out with their S and S+. Yet they still have their Note. What's the point of the Note now? Seems like it's just a S+ with a Stylus and for a lot more money. If you don't give a crap about the Stylus, you might as well just get the S+.
    Based on what, the lighting is not even the same from picture to picture, why not give them the god same pose at least, and the colors and the highlights are blown away on the Note despite seemingly being put in a pose which should give less light.

    We don't even know its supposed to look with different baseline settings. So, what on earth are we comparing with? His minds eye?

    Considering Portrait blurs everything that's not in the plane of focus, pointing to blurring away from the plane is  dumbass thing to do (yet some people here have done that).
    If your trying to make a point about anything you should know how on earth the thing your testing works. So,

    So, he does not know how depth of field work and portrait mode works and so disregarded it when assessing the result or setting up the shot!

    It is like someone manipulated the people on camera to make a point; and then even then not making it.

    This is basically some extremely shoddy "comparison work".




    edited September 2017 patchythepiratewatto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 44
    nht said:
    EngDev said:
    nht said:
    EngDev said:
    macseeker said:
    Seems like the iPhone 7+ picture is sharper.


    Source: Macworld
    In this case the iPhone is applying blur and Note 8 isn't.  The iPhone is attempting to do a very thin DOF with focus only on the face.  It's as the more aggressive of the two in terms of attempting bokeh.  Also, it appears that the iPhone missed focus in this capture.  I wonder if she was moving during the shot.

    Whether her chest would be in focus or not in a real DSLR depends on how busty she is.  Not very so likely in focus.  

    The Note 8 is obviously less aggressive as seen in this comparison where the iPhone gets it more right but the Note doesn't


    Both seem to have problems with blur depending on the scenario. I think Macworld did a decent job outlining these cases. They're right about the iPhone focusing too much on the face.

    Saying that the iPhone focuses too much on the face for portraiture is plain stupid.  

    The primary criticism for that iPhone 7 shot is that it missed focus...not that it focused too much on the face.  It actually got the blur correct but the eyes and face are a bit muddy focused.  Since the iPhone nailed focus in other shots I mark that down as user error.

    Frankly, the entire piece from Mac World is shoddy.  The model is posed differently for each phone.  Adam, despite being "Video Director & Photographer, MacWorld", apparently doesn't own a DSLR with a prime lens to shoot for reference.

    Adding a reference would have taken a few extra moments...it's literally "hold the pose" Snap, switch, snap, switch, snap.  Not let me be a dumbass and shoot each camera in series and then end up with different poses, distance and worse...lighting.  

    What did we learn from Adam's comparisons?  That he doesn't actually know how to run photographic comparisons.

    TL;DR;  Its called Portrait Mode.  Focusing on the face is entirely the point.
    I completely agree. It drives me nuts when people try to make photographic comparisons and it's not even the same picture. Of course the results are going to be different trying to compare two different phones with two different poses. From other samples I've seen online, I think the iPhone definitely does a better job with their Portrait Mode compared to the Note 8. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 25 of 44
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    nht said:
    EngDev said:
    nht said:
    EngDev said:
    macseeker said:
    Seems like the iPhone 7+ picture is sharper.


    Source: Macworld
    In this case the iPhone is applying blur and Note 8 isn't.  The iPhone is attempting to do a very thin DOF with focus only on the face.  It's as the more aggressive of the two in terms of attempting bokeh.  Also, it appears that the iPhone missed focus in this capture.  I wonder if she was moving during the shot.

    Whether her chest would be in focus or not in a real DSLR depends on how busty she is.  Not very so likely in focus.  

    The Note 8 is obviously less aggressive as seen in this comparison where the iPhone gets it more right but the Note doesn't


    Both seem to have problems with blur depending on the scenario. I think Macworld did a decent job outlining these cases. They're right about the iPhone focusing too much on the face.

    Saying that the iPhone focuses too much on the face for portraiture is plain stupid.  

    The primary criticism for that iPhone 7 shot is that it missed focus...not that it focused too much on the face.  It actually got the blur correct but the eyes and face are a bit muddy focused.  Since the iPhone nailed focus in other shots I mark that down as user error.

    Frankly, the entire piece from Mac World is shoddy.  The model is posed differently for each phone.  Adam, despite being "Video Director & Photographer, MacWorld", apparently doesn't own a DSLR with a prime lens to shoot for reference.

    Adding a reference would have taken a few extra moments...it's literally "hold the pose" Snap, switch, snap, switch, snap.  Not let me be a dumbass and shoot each camera in series and then end up with different poses, distance and worse...lighting.  

    What did we learn from Adam's comparisons?  That he doesn't actually know how to run photographic comparisons.

    TL;DR;  Its called Portrait Mode.  Focusing on the face is entirely the point.
    I completely agree. It drives me nuts when people try to make photographic comparisons and it's not even the same picture. Of course the results are going to be different trying to compare two different phones with two different poses. From other samples I've seen online, I think the iPhone definitely does a better job with their Portrait Mode compared to the Note 8. 
    That particularly the case here with portrait mode since were you focus makes a huge difference in how the show will come out.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 26 of 44
    tzeshantzeshan Posts: 1,965member
    nht said:
    EngDev said:
    nht said:
    EngDev said:
    macseeker said:
    Seems like the iPhone 7+ picture is sharper.


    Source: Macworld
    In this case the iPhone is applying blur and Note 8 isn't.  The iPhone is attempting to do a very thin DOF with focus only on the face.  It's as the more aggressive of the two in terms of attempting bokeh.  Also, it appears that the iPhone missed focus in this capture.  I wonder if she was moving during the shot.

    Whether her chest would be in focus or not in a real DSLR depends on how busty she is.  Not very so likely in focus.  

    The Note 8 is obviously less aggressive as seen in this comparison where the iPhone gets it more right but the Note doesn't


    Both seem to have problems with blur depending on the scenario. I think Macworld did a decent job outlining these cases. They're right about the iPhone focusing too much on the face.
    Not when it's called "Portrait Mode".  Typically the face is the thing you want to get in focus for portraits.  In particular, the eyes.  With a thin DOF even ears are out of focus.  Here's an example.  Eyes in focus, ears not.



    Often pros do additional post processing to make the eyes pop even more.



    Eyes in focus, ears and shirt not.



    Eyes in focus, ears and blouse not.  The DoF is an inch or two deep at most.

    Post processing includes upping the exposure just for the iris to enhance eye colors, increasing sharpness and contrast, etc, cleaning up the whites of the eyes, artificially adding light reflection or enhancing the light reflection in the eyes.

    In basic portraiture you focus on the eyes.

    Saying that the iPhone focuses too much on the face for portraiture is plain stupid.  

    The primary criticism for that iPhone 7 shot is that it missed focus...not that it focused too much on the face.  It actually got the blur correct but the eyes and face are a bit muddy focused.  Since the iPhone nailed focus in other shots I mark that down as user error.

    Frankly, the entire piece from Mac World is shoddy.  The model is posed differently for each phone.  Adam, despite being "Video Director & Photographer, MacWorld", apparently doesn't own a DSLR with a prime lens to shoot for reference.

    Adding a reference would have taken a few extra moments...it's literally "hold the pose" Snap, switch, snap, switch, snap.  Not let me be a dumbass and shoot each camera in series and then end up with different poses, distance and worse...lighting.  

    What did we learn from Adam's comparisons?  That he doesn't actually know how to run photographic comparisons.

    TL;DR;  Its called Portrait Mode.  Focusing on the face is entirely the point.
    Very good point.  Portrait mode is a processing mode.  It is not easily done.  Apple did not release it right along with the iPhone 7. Some comments here show that some people do not really understand it.  Showing the sharpness of her cloth is completely wrong and misleading. The reverse logic is actually true that Samsung did not make it right. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 44
    nht said:

    Not when it's called "Portrait Mode".  Typically the face is the thing you want to get in focus for portraits.  

    ...

    TL;DR;  Its called Portrait Mode.  Focusing on the face is entirely the point.
    This feature shouldn't be exclusively for headshots.

    The face is important, but features, like the body and clothing, can play a huge factor in a portrait and should not have any more blur than the face.


  • Reply 28 of 44
    EngDev said:
    macxpress said:
    The facial recognition software works excellent!!!!

    https://twitter.com/meltajon/status/904058526061830144
    I don't get it. That phone is in demo mode, it has no registered user, hence it will unlock to anything.

    I'd be curious to see if that would actually work with a real user.
    Which IMO, is very dumb move by whoever setup the demo software. It makes people think this feature is unsafe. People know the history of this feature and that exactly what this phone does. 
  • Reply 29 of 44
    nht said:
    Yeah, but seeing how it would perform in extreme cases gives an idea of how well that algorithm performs in the majority of cases.
    You can clearly see that spotty DoF effect application from Note phone, which clearly tells you that Sammy did not nail reliable depth mask generation, and hence, the effect sucks so much that it is unusable. In other words, it is what Sammy normally excels at - creating a software feature/tool that no one is going to use, because results are rarely good. THAT is a difference between Apple and Sammy. The difference "nominally" is small. But in reality, if that is how Note generates depth masks, the result is going to suck big time, while for Apple DoF effect is going to be usable 90-95% of time.
    In Samsungs "defense" they called it "Live Focus" which essentially means nothing so they kinda sorta delivered what they promised.  A tool that maybe, maybe not blurs the background in a useful way.

    And yet people are so quick to compare it to Portrait mode iPhone 7+? Because let's be honest here, that's what Samsung intention is with the so called "Live Focus": bokeh effect, which they did poorly but was judged better than iPhone. I don't think I have ever seen such unfair test, and no, it's not because I am bias.
    watto_cobraanton zuykov
  • Reply 30 of 44
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,734member
    EngDev said:
    nht said:

    Not when it's called "Portrait Mode".  Typically the face is the thing you want to get in focus for portraits.  

    ...

    TL;DR;  Its called Portrait Mode.  Focusing on the face is entirely the point.
    This feature shouldn't be exclusively for headshots.

    The face is important, but features, like the body and clothing, can play a huge factor in a portrait and should not have any more blur than the face.


    It's really just about keeping extraneous surrounding out of the various depth of fields that are used in the image stack. That will reduce unnatural artifacts that would effect the finished image. Hence, why it's a realtime process. Constraining the subject to a head and shoulders portrait just reduces the chance of artifacts.

    Performance improvements with each new iPhone generation will allow more slices in the stack, and machine learning to assist removal of artifacts when the occur. It will be easier to get depth of field benefits in more circumstances.
  • Reply 31 of 44
    And the Note 8 has a really great facial recognition system...

    ... if you do not mind having everyone log in to your phone with a picture of you, or by showing your FaceBook photo.

    https://9to5mac.com/2017/09/05/iphone-8-face-recognition-samsung-galaxy-s8-note-8/
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 32 of 44
    macxpress said:
    The facial recognition software works excellent!!!!

    https://twitter.com/meltajon/status/904058526061830144
    Not to take away from what is probably still a crappie tech from Samsung. But this WAS A DEMO phone. Meaning, anyone’s face could unlock it with so they could show the feature off. Also they have a disclaimer that it’s not secure in any way. 
  • Reply 33 of 44
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,217moderator
    jbdragon said:
    From those pictures, it looks to me like the Note 8 has the better pictures. We'll have to compare to the new iPhone which is only fair.
    If you look at the pictures full size, the iPhone is blurring more of the image but this creates a more natural looking image. In the following image the subject in the Note photo is sharper but this means the falloff from the subject to the background is more abrupt and the hair over on the right has a really bad artifact that would make the photo unusable:

    https://images.idgesg.net/images/article/2017/09/depth1-100734585-orig.jpg

    The iPhone photo there looks more natural and could be used directly without further editing. The iPhone does similarly bad masking at times too though.

    I expect in addition to the new hardware, iOS 11 will help out as it adds CoreML for object detection and Apple mentions in their WWDC video they've improved portrait mode in iOS 11 as well as added APIs to allow custom filtering so you can do image filtering by depth e.g desaturate further away objects into black and white so only the subject in the photo is colored:

    https://developer.apple.com/library/content/releasenotes/General/WhatsNewIniOS/Articles/iOS_11_0.html
    https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2017/507/



    They can track objects moving in video too. With learning capability it could be told what an object is or where it has gone wrong, correct it and learn from it. They can crowd-source advanced image recognition by allowing users to submit data back to them.

    Hair is one of the hardest parts to mask correctly so there could be some kind of strand detection filter that shows lines coming from the head that match with the hair so that it can crop what's between the hair more accurately - an object mask in addition to the depth mask:



    Blur the inverse mask applied to the background then superimpose the sharp hair back on top, which can have a smaller blur applied to avoid jagged artifacts. A test of this would be filming someone with hair blowing against a complex backdrop and tracking the strands to crop the hair. Temporal analysis using frames captured from live photos or movies can help object recognition.

    Just having the data to be able to make adjustments after the photo is stored will make these features much better because any faults can be corrected. Even if the corrections are time-consuming, it's still way faster than doing the entire photo manually.
  • Reply 34 of 44
    Well gee... the iPhone is end of cycle and the note JUST came out. 

    Lets commpare "apples to apples" when the 8 is out very shortly. 

    Whats next? Apple comparing the 8 with last years Note? 
    edited September 2017 watto_cobraanton zuykov
  • Reply 35 of 44
    macxpress said:
    The facial recognition software works excellent!!!!

    https://twitter.com/meltajon/status/904058526061830144
    Not to take away from what is probably still a crappie tech from Samsung. But this WAS A DEMO phone. Meaning, anyone’s face could unlock it with so they could show the feature off. Also they have a disclaimer that it’s not secure in any way. 
    Well, is there some hard data co firming that it's a demo phone where anyone can enter using this option? Also, over on DF Gruber linked to a NYT article where it didn't really work for the author in four out of five times. Add the disclaimers to this and IMO you're in the realm of gimmick rather than feature. 

    Beat, not first. That's how Apple vs Samsungs may turn out. Again. 

    watto_cobra
  • Reply 36 of 44
    Two thoughts guys on the picture comparison:

    1) as stated before somewhere already, use a ducking reference shot with pro equipment and ducking use the same pose, time etc. 

    2) there just might be a difference as to what experts judge "best" and what the broad masses prefer. If broad masses would be able to see a difference here at all, that is. 
  • Reply 37 of 44
    For a moment, I thought the Shining twins had grown up!!
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 38 of 44
    nhtnht Posts: 4,436member
    EngDev said:
    nht said:

    Not when it's called "Portrait Mode".  Typically the face is the thing you want to get in focus for portraits.  

    ...

    TL;DR;  Its called Portrait Mode.  Focusing on the face is entirely the point.
    This feature shouldn't be exclusively for headshots.

    The face is important, but features, like the body and clothing, can play a huge factor in a portrait and should not have any more blur than the face.
    Even though when using a DSLR you get blur?  How many DSLR shots do I have to provide where the face is in focus but the shirt is not for you to believe that the iPhone is simulating DSLR thin DoF results better than Samsung?  

    Now you're just trolling.
    edited September 2017
  • Reply 39 of 44
    nht said:
    EngDev said:
    nht said:

    Not when it's called "Portrait Mode".  Typically the face is the thing you want to get in focus for portraits.  

    ...

    TL;DR;  Its called Portrait Mode.  Focusing on the face is entirely the point.
    This feature shouldn't be exclusively for headshots.

    The face is important, but features, like the body and clothing, can play a huge factor in a portrait and should not have any more blur than the face.
    Even though when using a DSLR you get blur?  How many DSLR shots do I have to provide where the face is in focus but the shirt is not for you to believe that the iPhone is simulating DSLR thin DoF results better than Samsung?  

    Now you're just trolling.
    When you're using a DSLR, you don't get blur on things in the same plane of focus, which is exactly what the iPhone 7 Plus is doing by focusing only on the face and blurring everything else.


    Source: Appleinsider

    Note that the iPhone is blurring the clothing while the DSLR is not (look at the letters, the zipper, etc.).

    In fact, the iPhone can't take a proper picture of a slightly turned face either. When you try to do that, it keeps the entire face in focus, despite one side of the face being further than the other side. 

    Your ignorance doesn't mean I'm "trolling".
    edited September 2017
  • Reply 40 of 44
    nhtnht Posts: 4,436member
    EngDev said:
    nht said:
    EngDev said:
    nht said:

    Not when it's called "Portrait Mode".  Typically the face is the thing you want to get in focus for portraits.  

    ...

    TL;DR;  Its called Portrait Mode.  Focusing on the face is entirely the point.
    This feature shouldn't be exclusively for headshots.

    The face is important, but features, like the body and clothing, can play a huge factor in a portrait and should not have any more blur than the face.
    Even though when using a DSLR you get blur?  How many DSLR shots do I have to provide where the face is in focus but the shirt is not for you to believe that the iPhone is simulating DSLR thin DoF results better than Samsung?  

    Now you're just trolling.
    When you're using a DSLR, you don't get blur on things in the same plane of focus, which is exactly what the iPhone 7 Plus is doing by focusing only on the face and blurring everything else.


    Source: Appleinsider

    Note that the iPhone is blurring the clothing while the DSLR is not (look at the letters, the zipper, etc.).

    In fact, the iPhone can't take a proper picture of a slightly turned face either. When you try to do that, it keeps the entire face in focus, despite one side of the face being further than the other side. 

    Your ignorance doesn't mean I'm "trolling".
    50mm f4 doesn't give you shallow DoF.  At 8 feet your DoF with a 50mm at f4 is 22 inches.  Meaning everything 11 inches in front and behind the focal point will be in focus.

    At f1.8 the DoF 7.7 inches.  That means only things 3.8 inches in front or behind is in focus.  Which means the chest is likely OOF when shooting wide open with a prime to get the shallowest DoF for portraits.

    The "plane of focus" isn't a plane as it has depth.  Who's the ignorant one?


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