Inside iPhone 8: Apple's A11 Bionic introduces 5 new custom silicon engines

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Comments

  • Reply 81 of 119
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,154member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Wasn’t Huawei bragging about their Kirin 970 - trying to steal some thunder just before Apples event?

    Sorry, Huawei, you’re not the first to put in a neural processor. You were the first to “announce” it, but it’s all vaporware until you ship devices (which Apple is).

    Even so, it’s not that big of a deal - neural processors are not that difficult to design (compared to a CPU or GPU) since they are optimized to perform a few basic tasks really well. The 970 still uses inferior ARM cores (instead of designing their own) or Mali GPUs (again, instead of designing their own). If they really wanted to impress people they should have made a completely custom SoC with their own CPU/GPU cores.

    They took the easy way out by designing a much simpler component (nueral procesdor) and trying to make it appear more relevant than it is to make up for their lack of ability to design their own CPU/GPU.
    Vapourware? 

    They didn't announce it and say, it's coming at some point.

    They announced it, they showed it on stage and in the hands of the president, they had boards running the chip right there on the show floor, they had it in the hands of independent testers to test things like the CAT18 modem.

    Vapourware? Yeah, whatever you say.

    They even gave the date for the announcement of the first phone that will use it. It wasn't earlier because the Mate series is announced in October/November. If they wanted to be first with it shipping in a phone, they could. The processor has been in mass production for a while now and they need far less than Apple. If it isn't available today it's because they set a date and don't need to change it.

    So you think neural processors are easy to design? They've been around for a while - but on mobile? No. If it were so easy, everybody would have one. They don't.

    This is major step for whoever gets them onto a SoC. Major, but only the first one. Now software is needed.

    Huawei develops their own SoCs. They could easily design their own CPU/GPUs too. They choose not too.

    Be careful what you wish for. When the US government scuppered a deal for intel to ship Xeons to China for use in supercomputers the Chinese said, OK we'll brew our own. The result was the SW26010 and look what happened then. 

    Do you know why Apple depends on other people's designs (not only manufacturing capacity) so much for key elements of its hardware? Because it chooses to. Just like Huawei. Just like everyone that has the resources to go it alone but chooses not to. There are things you prefer to do alone and others you don't.

    Huawei is not using the latest ARM cores because it chose not to use them on the Kirin 970. It will use the latest cores on the following design. Using them on the Kirin 970 would have delayed the release. There are other reasons too. With this decision they still have a far better modem than anyone else, dual ISPs, a better sensor controller, the NPU, better efficiencies, far better GPU etc.

    And even with the 960 (and below) they recently became the world's second largest handset manufacturer, moving past Apple. They even decided to pull out of the low end.

    Apple designs its own chips because it wants differentiation with the rest of the market and is still using external IP on the GPUs on most of its phones and in many other areas. Let's face it, Apple has its biggest eggs in one basket. If the bottom falls out of that basket it wouldn't be a disaster for users, just Apple and Wall Street. The company would still be a billion dollar company. The same cannot be said of Huawei. Until relatively recently it wasn't even in the handset business. Huawei invests a lot in R&D but still has many agreements with other companies. Its phones are the fruit of many different IP agreements and of all kinds. Some are exclusive and some are not. Some involve shared IP and some don't.

    Perhaps you are focusing too much on benchmarks and not seeing the bigger picture. Don't forget that Apple has had to play catch-up in many areas with their new phones. 

    Bold move coming out as a Huawei shill three weeks before they deliver the "knockout blow" to Apple. 

    Me, I'll be making popcorn. 
    Me too. Competition keeps companies on their toes. "Knockout blow"? No. You just make yourself look silly with comments like that.

    Of course, if you know of any other phone that attempts to handle on board AI in the same way the Honor Magic does, please enlighten me. If not, we'll have to wait and see what the Mate 10 brings. And the Pixel2 before that.
    edited September 2017
  • Reply 82 of 119
    avon b7 said:
    Wasn’t Huawei bragging about their Kirin 970 - trying to steal some thunder just before Apples event?
    Sorry,Huawei, you’re not the first to put in a neural processor. You were the first to “announce” it, but it’s all vaporware until you ship devices (which Apple is).
    Even so, it’s not that big of a deal - neural processors are not that difficult to design (compared to a CPU or GPU) since they are optimized to perform a few basic tasks really well. The 970 still uses inferior ARM cores (instead of designing their own) or Mali GPUs (again, instead of designing their own). If they really wanted to impress people they should have made a completely custom SoC with their own CPU/GPU cores.

    They took the easy way out by designing a much simpler component (nueral procesdor) and trying to make it appear more relevant than it is to make up for their lack of ability to design their own CPU/GPU.
    Vapourware? 

    They didn't announce it and say, it's coming at some point.

    They announced it, they showed it on stage and in the hands of the president, they had boards running the chip right there on the show floor, they had it in the hands of independent testers to test things like the CAT18 modem.

    Vapourware? Yeah, whatever you say.

    They even gave the date for the announcement of the first phone that will use it. It wasn't earlier because the Mate series is announced in October/November. If they wanted to be first with it shipping in a phone, they could. The processor has been in mass production for a while now and they need far less than Apple. If it isn't available today it's because they set a date and don't need to change it.

    So you think neural processors are easy to design? They've been around for a while - but on mobile? No. If it were so easy, everybody would have one. They don't.

    This is major step for whoever gets them onto a SoC. Major, but only the first one. Now software is needed.

    Huawei develops their own SoCs. They could easily design their own CPU/GPUs too. They choose not too.

    Be careful what you wish for. When the US government scuppered a deal for intel to ship Xeons to China for use in supercomputers the Chinese said, OK we'll brew our own. The result was the SW26010 and look what happened then. 

    Do you know why Apple depends on other people's designs (not only manufacturing capacity) so much for key elements of its hardware? Because it chooses to. Just like Huawei. Just like everyone that has the resources to go it alone but chooses not to. There are things you prefer to do alone and others you don't.

    Huawei is not using the latest ARM cores because it chose not to use them on the Kirin 970. It will use the latest cores on the following design. Using them on the Kirin 970 would have delayed the release. There are other reasons too. With this decision they still have a far better modem than anyone else, dual ISPs, a better sensor controller, the NPU, better efficiencies, far better GPU etc.

    And even with the 960 (and below) they recently became the world's second largest handset manufacturer, moving past Apple. They even decided to pull out of the low end.

    Apple designs its own chips because it wants differentiation with the rest of the market and is still using external IP on the GPUs on most of its phones and in many other areas. Let's face it, Apple has its biggest eggs in one basket. If the bottom falls out of that basket it wouldn't be a disaster for users, just Apple and Wall Street. The company would still be a billion dollar company. The same cannot be said of Huawei. Until relatively recently it wasn't even in the handset business. Huawei invests a lot in R&D but still has many agreements with other companies. Its phones are the fruit of many different IP agreements and of all kinds. Some are exclusive and some are not. Some involve shared IP and some don't.

    Perhaps you are focusing too much on benchmarks and not seeing the bigger picture. Don't forget that Apple has had to play catch-up in many areas with their new phones. 

    avon b7  I agree with your statement ...........

    williamlondon
  • Reply 83 of 119
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,154member
    tmay said:
    asdasd said:
    tmay said:
    asdasd said:
    tmay said:
    crosslad said:
    "Google  - aimed at hitting an average selling price of less than $300—Android One phones have an aggressive price target of $100." 

    Not entirely true nowadays; the Pixel phones were priced the same as the iPhones and the new MotoX4, running Android One is around $400. This has got to be good for Apple. I would not pay the same price for an android phone as an iPhone. Now that Apple has phones at every price point  I can only see Apple sales increasing.

    Average selling price of Androids, including Pixel, is actually below $200. Even Samsung’s ASP, which includes its premium-priced Galaxy phones that sell in the 10s of millions, is now at $227. 

    http://www.androidauthority.com/price-gap-samsung-apple-smartphones-769772/

    This isn’t a new development. iPhone ASP has been pretty constant at or above $650 while Androids have have been below $300 since 2013. 

    Having a vanity model that sells in tiny quantities has little impact on an average, whether Pixel or Virtu. 



    The few members of the Church of Marketshare on AI will not acknowledge those facts.
    When Tim Cook joins that church, as he is clearly indicating, you will all rush to be members. 
    The Church of Marketshare is all about maximizing share, not about profits, so, I'm not seeing what you are wrt Tim Cook.
    Apple never say anything about being a profit seeking company. They deny it in fact. 

    However they are increasingly getting more revenue from services, for that to continue unit sales must increase. 
    Unit sales are increasing along the same trend line they have been on for years . To imply or state otherwise is an absolute falsehood. 

    http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-iphone-sales-yearly-chart-2017-2
    Yes, virtually flat since 2014, and your linked graph came with an explanation pointing out that the last quarter had an extra week in it.

    What he said makes a lot of sense. You are free to argue otherwise but your linked article didn't help your cause.


  • Reply 84 of 119
    jbdragonjbdragon Posts: 2,246member
    I'm looking at the CPU speed chart and going, well there's my iPhone 6 way on the bottom and look at how much faster those newer phones are. A huge difference! My phone doesn't seem THAT slow. I was thinking of upgrading. I had my iPhone 4 for 4+ years before getting my iPhone 6. That 4th year with my iPhone 4 and the iOS update I got on it really slowed the phone way down where at times I wanted to throw it against the wall and break it. My iPhone 6 though is running about the same with iOS11 as it did with iOS10, and now thinking about it, I was going to get the iPhone X, but now I think I'll skip what is basically a 1st generation device and wait 1 more year and get the iPhone XI or whatever it'll be called next year. It'll be 4 years with this iPhone 6 also.

    That first A4 processor in the iPhone 4 was a start way back then. The iPhone 6 when it launched was really FAST, and it shows that it can still keep up with the newest iOS software better then that iPhone 4. That's the thing. A really fast processor, maybe you don't need all that speed NOW, but a few years down the road, you'll be glad you had it. In the end 4+ year later with that iPhone 4, I sold it off to T-Mobile for $202. That's pretty darn good. The longer you hold onto your phone, the more value you get out of it. Next year at this time, it'll be 2 years of not paying more on my cell phone bill for phone costs. Spending a grand on a iPhone is not so bad at that point. I think buying a iPhone X now is like being a Beta Tester. Apple will learned what worked and what didn't and fix it. FaceID2 like TouchID2. Better/Faster. Little things like that , that just make it overall a better phone. That's the iPhone I want.
    argonautwilliamlondon
  • Reply 85 of 119
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,154member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Wasn’t Huawei bragging about their Kirin 970 - trying to steal some thunder just before Apples event?

    Sorry, Huawei, you’re not the first to put in a neural processor. You were the first to “announce” it, but it’s all vaporware until you ship devices (which Apple is).

    Even so, it’s not that big of a deal - neural processors are not that difficult to design (compared to a CPU or GPU) since they are optimized to perform a few basic tasks really well. The 970 still uses inferior ARM cores (instead of designing their own) or Mali GPUs (again, instead of designing their own). If they really wanted to impress people they should have made a completely custom SoC with their own CPU/GPU cores.

    They took the easy way out by designing a much simpler component (nueral procesdor) and trying to make it appear more relevant than it is to make up for their lack of ability to design their own CPU/GPU.
    Vapourware? 

    They didn't announce it and say, it's coming at some point.

    They announced it, they showed it on stage and in the hands of the president, they had boards running the chip right there on the show floor, they had it in the hands of independent testers to test things like the CAT18 modem.

    Vapourware? Yeah, whatever you say.

    They even gave the date for the announcement of the first phone that will use it. It wasn't earlier because the Mate series is announced in October/November. If they wanted to be first with it shipping in a phone, they could. The processor has been in mass production for a while now and they need far less than Apple. If it isn't available today it's because they set a date and don't need to change it.

    So you think neural processors are easy to design? They've been around for a while - but on mobile? No. If it were so easy, everybody would have one. They don't.

    This is major step for whoever gets them onto a SoC. Major, but only the first one. Now software is needed.

    Huawei develops their own SoCs. They could easily design their own CPU/GPUs too. They choose not too.

    Be careful what you wish for. When the US government scuppered a deal for intel to ship Xeons to China for use in supercomputers the Chinese said, OK we'll brew our own. The result was the SW26010 and look what happened then. 

    Do you know why Apple depends on other people's designs (not only manufacturing capacity) so much for key elements of its hardware? Because it chooses to. Just like Huawei. Just like everyone that has the resources to go it alone but chooses not to. There are things you prefer to do alone and others you don't.

    Huawei is not using the latest ARM cores because it chose not to use them on the Kirin 970. It will use the latest cores on the following design. Using them on the Kirin 970 would have delayed the release. There are other reasons too. With this decision they still have a far better modem than anyone else, dual ISPs, a better sensor controller, the NPU, better efficiencies, far better GPU etc.

    And even with the 960 (and below) they recently became the world's second largest handset manufacturer, moving past Apple. They even decided to pull out of the low end.

    Apple designs its own chips because it wants differentiation with the rest of the market and is still using external IP on the GPUs on most of its phones and in many other areas. Let's face it, Apple has its biggest eggs in one basket. If the bottom falls out of that basket it wouldn't be a disaster for users, just Apple and Wall Street. The company would still be a billion dollar company. The same cannot be said of Huawei. Until relatively recently it wasn't even in the handset business. Huawei invests a lot in R&D but still has many agreements with other companies. Its phones are the fruit of many different IP agreements and of all kinds. Some are exclusive and some are not. Some involve shared IP and some don't.

    Perhaps you are focusing too much on benchmarks and not seeing the bigger picture. Don't forget that Apple has had to play catch-up in many areas with their new phones. 

    Bold move coming out as a Huawei shill three weeks before they deliver the "knockout blow" to Apple. 

    Me, I'll be making popcorn. 

    Didn't you have this troll on ignore? Might to time to add him back. Nothing upsets a troll more than watching their posts wither away without a response.
    I guessing that now would be a good time to add him back on the list.

    Done.

    I'm actually happy that he exposed himself as a shill on AI. Makes it easier now to disregard him.
    Shill? Hmmm you are struggling now.

    I have pointed out that having faster processors for the last few chip generations hasn't really changed much for Apple. I could have contrasted them with Samsung (like everyone else likes to do) but I know very little about Samsung. I have outlined why I think the speed increase hasn't changed things.

    On the other hand I know a lot about Huawei, which is now Apple's closest competitor, is piling money into AI and its NPU.

    They have a fair bit in common right now when it comes to certain areas. They make for a far better comparison than Samsung.

    It is now the fourth or fifth time you have said you have put me on your ignore list. I ask you to do it and keep it that way because if insults and snide remarks are all you can offer, you are doing yourself no favours.

    If you think a pure speed increase on the A11 will have a different impact than that of previous generations of A series CPUs in phones with regards to Android phones or even other iPhones, say why. Discuss it like a normal person. Give your reasons.






  • Reply 86 of 119
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,684member
    tmay said:
    asdasd said:
    tmay said:
    asdasd said:
    tmay said:
    crosslad said:
    "Google  - aimed at hitting an average selling price of less than $300—Android One phones have an aggressive price target of $100." 

    Not entirely true nowadays; the Pixel phones were priced the same as the iPhones and the new MotoX4, running Android One is around $400. This has got to be good for Apple. I would not pay the same price for an android phone as an iPhone. Now that Apple has phones at every price point  I can only see Apple sales increasing.

    Average selling price of Androids, including Pixel, is actually below $200. Even Samsung’s ASP, which includes its premium-priced Galaxy phones that sell in the 10s of millions, is now at $227. 

    http://www.androidauthority.com/price-gap-samsung-apple-smartphones-769772/

    This isn’t a new development. iPhone ASP has been pretty constant at or above $650 while Androids have have been below $300 since 2013. 

    Having a vanity model that sells in tiny quantities has little impact on an average, whether Pixel or Virtu. 



    The few members of the Church of Marketshare on AI will not acknowledge those facts.
    When Tim Cook joins that church, as he is clearly indicating, you will all rush to be members. 
    The Church of Marketshare is all about maximizing share, not about profits, so, I'm not seeing what you are wrt Tim Cook.
    Apple never say anything about being a profit seeking company. They deny it in fact. 

    However they are increasingly getting more revenue from services, for that to continue unit sales must increase. 
    Unit sales are increasing along the same trend line they have been on for years . To imply or state otherwise is an absolute falsehood. 

    http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-iphone-sales-yearly-chart-2017-2
    That graph clearly shows increases in unit sales yoy slowing down. Common knowledge I would think. 

    So what are Apple doing? Creating a high premium models and reducing the price of their  their cheapest model. 
    avon b7
  • Reply 87 of 119
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,154member
    jbdragon said:
    I'm looking at the CPU speed chart and going, well there's my iPhone 6 way on the bottom and look at how much faster those newer phones are. A huge difference! My phone doesn't seem THAT slow. I was thinking of upgrading. I had my iPhone 4 for 4+ years before getting my iPhone 6. That 4th year with my iPhone 4 and the iOS update I got on it really slowed the phone way down where at times I wanted to throw it against the wall and break it. My iPhone 6 though is running about the same with iOS11 as it did with iOS10, and now thinking about it, I was going to get the iPhone X, but now I think I'll skip what is basically a 1st generation device and wait 1 more year and get the iPhone XI or whatever it'll be called next year. It'll be 4 years with this iPhone 6 also.

    That first A4 processor in the iPhone 4 was a start way back then. The iPhone 6 when it launched was really FAST, and it shows that it can still keep up with the newest iOS software better then that iPhone 4. That's the thing. A really fast processor, maybe you don't need all that speed NOW, but a few years down the road, you'll be glad you had it. In the end 4+ year later with that iPhone 4, I sold it off to T-Mobile for $202. That's pretty darn good. The longer you hold onto your phone, the more value you get out of it. Next year at this time, it'll be 2 years of not paying more on my cell phone bill for phone costs. Spending a grand on a iPhone is not so bad at that point. I think buying a iPhone X now is like being a Beta Tester. Apple will learned what worked and what didn't and fix it. FaceID2 like TouchID2. Better/Faster. Little things like that , that just make it overall a better phone. That's the iPhone I want.
    Thanks for commenting on the iOS 11 impact on the iPhone 6. I'm in exactly the same situation as you but the 6 has a new battery in it. I think I'll do like you and hang onto it (actually it's my wife's) for a while more. I wasn't looking for an iPhone X but an iPhone 8 would have been nice for her.

    I agree with you that if you plan to hold onto your phone for a while, then the extra power at launch comes in handy later on. My only doubt is if the RAM is enough when the system upgrades add the extra weight.
  • Reply 88 of 119
    avon b7 said:
    Wasn’t Huawei bragging about their Kirin 970 - trying to steal some thunder just before Apples event?
    Sorry,Huawei, you’re not the first to put in a neural processor. You were the first to “announce” it, but it’s all vaporware until you ship devices (which Apple is).
    Even so, it’s not that big of a deal - neural processors are not that difficult to design (compared to a CPU or GPU) since they are optimized to perform a few basic tasks really well. The 970 still uses inferior ARM cores (instead of designing their own) or Mali GPUs (again, instead of designing their own). If they really wanted to impress people they should have made a completely custom SoC with their own CPU/GPU cores.

    They took the easy way out by designing a much simpler component (nueral procesdor) and trying to make it appear more relevant than it is to make up for their lack of ability to design their own CPU/GPU.
    Vapourware? 

    They didn't announce it and say, it's coming at some point.

    They announced it, they showed it on stage and in the hands of the president, they had boards running the chip right there on the show floor, they had it in the hands of independent testers to test things like the CAT18 modem.

    Vapourware? Yeah, whatever you say.

    They even gave the date for the announcement of the first phone that will use it. It wasn't earlier because the Mate series is announced in October/November. If they wanted to be first with it shipping in a phone, they could. The processor has been in mass production for a while now and they need far less than Apple. If it isn't available today it's because they set a date and don't need to change it.

    So you think neural processors are easy to design? They've been around for a while - but on mobile? No. If it were so easy, everybody would have one. They don't.

    This is major step for whoever gets them onto a SoC. Major, but only the first one. Now software is needed.

    Huawei develops their own SoCs. They could easily design their own CPU/GPUs too. They choose not too.

    Be careful what you wish for. When the US government scuppered a deal for intel to ship Xeons to China for use in supercomputers the Chinese said, OK we'll brew our own. The result was the SW26010 and look what happened then. 

    Do you know why Apple depends on other people's designs (not only manufacturing capacity) so much for key elements of its hardware? Because it chooses to. Just like Huawei. Just like everyone that has the resources to go it alone but chooses not to. There are things you prefer to do alone and others you don't.

    Huawei is not using the latest ARM cores because it chose not to use them on the Kirin 970. It will use the latest cores on the following design. Using them on the Kirin 970 would have delayed the release. There are other reasons too. With this decision they still have a far better modem than anyone else, dual ISPs, a better sensor controller, the NPU, better efficiencies, far better GPU etc.

    And even with the 960 (and below) they recently became the world's second largest handset manufacturer, moving past Apple. They even decided to pull out of the low end.

    Apple designs its own chips because it wants differentiation with the rest of the market and is still using external IP on the GPUs on most of its phones and in many other areas. Let's face it, Apple has its biggest eggs in one basket. If the bottom falls out of that basket it wouldn't be a disaster for users, just Apple and Wall Street. The company would still be a billion dollar company. The same cannot be said of Huawei. Until relatively recently it wasn't even in the handset business. Huawei invests a lot in R&D but still has many agreements with other companies. Its phones are the fruit of many different IP agreements and of all kinds. Some are exclusive and some are not. Some involve shared IP and some don't.

    Perhaps you are focusing too much on benchmarks and not seeing the bigger picture. Don't forget that Apple has had to play catch-up in many areas with their new phones. 

    avon b7  I agree with your statement ...........


    Oh look, another brand new troll with 1 post agreeing with another well-known troll. Like we've NEEEEEVEEERRRR seen that before here at AI.

    Like I've stated before, nothing gets the trolls going more than a discussion on Apple A-Series processors. It really bothers them to know just how far ahead Apple is compared to the Samsung and Qualcomm processors they're stuck using on their inferior devices.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 89 of 119
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,033member
    avon b7 said:
    Wasn’t Huawei bragging about their Kirin 970 - trying to steal some thunder just before Apples event?
    Sorry,Huawei, you’re not the first to put in a neural processor. You were the first to “announce” it, but it’s all vaporware until you ship devices (which Apple is).
    Even so, it’s not that big of a deal - neural processors are not that difficult to design (compared to a CPU or GPU) since they are optimized to perform a few basic tasks really well. The 970 still uses inferior ARM cores (instead of designing their own) or Mali GPUs (again, instead of designing their own). If they really wanted to impress people they should have made a completely custom SoC with their own CPU/GPU cores.

    They took the easy way out by designing a much simpler component (nueral procesdor) and trying to make it appear more relevant than it is to make up for their lack of ability to design their own CPU/GPU.
    Vapourware? 

    They didn't announce it and say, it's coming at some point.

    They announced it, they showed it on stage and in the hands of the president, they had boards running the chip right there on the show floor, they had it in the hands of independent testers to test things like the CAT18 modem.

    Vapourware? Yeah, whatever you say.

    They even gave the date for the announcement of the first phone that will use it. It wasn't earlier because the Mate series is announced in October/November. If they wanted to be first with it shipping in a phone, they could. The processor has been in mass production for a while now and they need far less than Apple. If it isn't available today it's because they set a date and don't need to change it.

    So you think neural processors are easy to design? They've been around for a while - but on mobile? No. If it were so easy, everybody would have one. They don't.

    This is major step for whoever gets them onto a SoC. Major, but only the first one. Now software is needed.

    Huawei develops their own SoCs. They could easily design their own CPU/GPUs too. They choose not too.

    Be careful what you wish for. When the US government scuppered a deal for intel to ship Xeons to China for use in supercomputers the Chinese said, OK we'll brew our own. The result was the SW26010 and look what happened then. 

    Do you know why Apple depends on other people's designs (not only manufacturing capacity) so much for key elements of its hardware? Because it chooses to. Just like Huawei. Just like everyone that has the resources to go it alone but chooses not to. There are things you prefer to do alone and others you don't.

    Huawei is not using the latest ARM cores because it chose not to use them on the Kirin 970. It will use the latest cores on the following design. Using them on the Kirin 970 would have delayed the release. There are other reasons too. With this decision they still have a far better modem than anyone else, dual ISPs, a better sensor controller, the NPU, better efficiencies, far better GPU etc.

    And even with the 960 (and below) they recently became the world's second largest handset manufacturer, moving past Apple. They even decided to pull out of the low end.

    Apple designs its own chips because it wants differentiation with the rest of the market and is still using external IP on the GPUs on most of its phones and in many other areas. Let's face it, Apple has its biggest eggs in one basket. If the bottom falls out of that basket it wouldn't be a disaster for users, just Apple and Wall Street. The company would still be a billion dollar company. The same cannot be said of Huawei. Until relatively recently it wasn't even in the handset business. Huawei invests a lot in R&D but still has many agreements with other companies. Its phones are the fruit of many different IP agreements and of all kinds. Some are exclusive and some are not. Some involve shared IP and some don't.

    Perhaps you are focusing too much on benchmarks and not seeing the bigger picture. Don't forget that Apple has had to play catch-up in many areas with their new phones. 

    avon b7  I agree with your statement ...........
    Oh look, another brand new troll with 1 post agreeing with another well-known troll. Like we've NEEEEEVEEERRRR seen that before here at AI.

    Like I've stated before, nothing gets the trolls going more than a discussion on Apple A-Series processors. It really bothers them to know just how far ahead Apple is compared to the Samsung and Qualcomm processors they're stuck using on their inferior devices.
    I assume it doesn't help their "Apple is only good at marketing" when Apple designs their own chips and benchmarks prove that Apple leads the pack.
    ericthehalfbeeargonaut
  • Reply 90 of 119
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,684member
    Soli said:
    avon b7 said:
    Wasn’t Huawei bragging about their Kirin 970 - trying to steal some thunder just before Apples event?
    Sorry,Huawei, you’re not the first to put in a neural processor. You were the first to “announce” it, but it’s all vaporware until you ship devices (which Apple is).
    Even so, it’s not that big of a deal - neural processors are not that difficult to design (compared to a CPU or GPU) since they are optimized to perform a few basic tasks really well. The 970 still uses inferior ARM cores (instead of designing their own) or Mali GPUs (again, instead of designing their own). If they really wanted to impress people they should have made a completely custom SoC with their own CPU/GPU cores.

    They took the easy way out by designing a much simpler component (nueral procesdor) and trying to make it appear more relevant than it is to make up for their lack of ability to design their own CPU/GPU.
    Vapourware? 

    They didn't announce it and say, it's coming at some point.

    They announced it, they showed it on stage and in the hands of the president, they had boards running the chip right there on the show floor, they had it in the hands of independent testers to test things like the CAT18 modem.

    Vapourware? Yeah, whatever you say.

    They even gave the date for the announcement of the first phone that will use it. It wasn't earlier because the Mate series is announced in October/November. If they wanted to be first with it shipping in a phone, they could. The processor has been in mass production for a while now and they need far less than Apple. If it isn't available today it's because they set a date and don't need to change it.

    So you think neural processors are easy to design? They've been around for a while - but on mobile? No. If it were so easy, everybody would have one. They don't.

    This is major step for whoever gets them onto a SoC. Major, but only the first one. Now software is needed.

    Huawei develops their own SoCs. They could easily design their own CPU/GPUs too. They choose not too.

    Be careful what you wish for. When the US government scuppered a deal for intel to ship Xeons to China for use in supercomputers the Chinese said, OK we'll brew our own. The result was the SW26010 and look what happened then. 

    Do you know why Apple depends on other people's designs (not only manufacturing capacity) so much for key elements of its hardware? Because it chooses to. Just like Huawei. Just like everyone that has the resources to go it alone but chooses not to. There are things you prefer to do alone and others you don't.

    Huawei is not using the latest ARM cores because it chose not to use them on the Kirin 970. It will use the latest cores on the following design. Using them on the Kirin 970 would have delayed the release. There are other reasons too. With this decision they still have a far better modem than anyone else, dual ISPs, a better sensor controller, the NPU, better efficiencies, far better GPU etc.

    And even with the 960 (and below) they recently became the world's second largest handset manufacturer, moving past Apple. They even decided to pull out of the low end.

    Apple designs its own chips because it wants differentiation with the rest of the market and is still using external IP on the GPUs on most of its phones and in many other areas. Let's face it, Apple has its biggest eggs in one basket. If the bottom falls out of that basket it wouldn't be a disaster for users, just Apple and Wall Street. The company would still be a billion dollar company. The same cannot be said of Huawei. Until relatively recently it wasn't even in the handset business. Huawei invests a lot in R&D but still has many agreements with other companies. Its phones are the fruit of many different IP agreements and of all kinds. Some are exclusive and some are not. Some involve shared IP and some don't.

    Perhaps you are focusing too much on benchmarks and not seeing the bigger picture. Don't forget that Apple has had to play catch-up in many areas with their new phones. 

    avon b7  I agree with your statement ...........
    Oh look, another brand new troll with 1 post agreeing with another well-known troll. Like we've NEEEEEVEEERRRR seen that before here at AI.

    Like I've stated before, nothing gets the trolls going more than a discussion on Apple A-Series processors. It really bothers them to know just how far ahead Apple is compared to the Samsung and Qualcomm processors they're stuck using on their inferior devices.
    I assume it doesn't help their "Apple is only good at marketing" when Apple designs their own chips and benchmarks prove that Apple leads the pack.
    Yeh I think that is it alright. Its pretty odd posting too - who here cares about a chip that may or may not be in some Android manufacturer's phone sometimes the far future, and may be able to do something or other we also don't care about, because we have iPhones and this is an Apple centric site. There might be parts of the internet that could be more pre-disposed to this. Not here. And every freaking thread, the same argument. 

    (He is right about Apple needing to -- and going to --  sell more lower priced units but thats pretty obvious though. )
  • Reply 91 of 119
    asdasd said:
    Soli said:
    avon b7 said:
    Wasn’t Huawei bragging about their Kirin 970 - trying to steal some thunder just before Apples event?
    Sorry,Huawei, you’re not the first to put in a neural processor. You were the first to “announce” it, but it’s all vaporware until you ship devices (which Apple is).
    Even so, it’s not that big of a deal - neural processors are not that difficult to design (compared to a CPU or GPU) since they are optimized to perform a few basic tasks really well. The 970 still uses inferior ARM cores (instead of designing their own) or Mali GPUs (again, instead of designing their own). If they really wanted to impress people they should have made a completely custom SoC with their own CPU/GPU cores.

    They took the easy way out by designing a much simpler component (nueral procesdor) and trying to make it appear more relevant than it is to make up for their lack of ability to design their own CPU/GPU.
    Vapourware? 

    They didn't announce it and say, it's coming at some point.

    They announced it, they showed it on stage and in the hands of the president, they had boards running the chip right there on the show floor, they had it in the hands of independent testers to test things like the CAT18 modem.

    Vapourware? Yeah, whatever you say.

    They even gave the date for the announcement of the first phone that will use it. It wasn't earlier because the Mate series is announced in October/November. If they wanted to be first with it shipping in a phone, they could. The processor has been in mass production for a while now and they need far less than Apple. If it isn't available today it's because they set a date and don't need to change it.

    So you think neural processors are easy to design? They've been around for a while - but on mobile? No. If it were so easy, everybody would have one. They don't.

    This is major step for whoever gets them onto a SoC. Major, but only the first one. Now software is needed.

    Huawei develops their own SoCs. They could easily design their own CPU/GPUs too. They choose not too.

    Be careful what you wish for. When the US government scuppered a deal for intel to ship Xeons to China for use in supercomputers the Chinese said, OK we'll brew our own. The result was the SW26010 and look what happened then. 

    Do you know why Apple depends on other people's designs (not only manufacturing capacity) so much for key elements of its hardware? Because it chooses to. Just like Huawei. Just like everyone that has the resources to go it alone but chooses not to. There are things you prefer to do alone and others you don't.

    Huawei is not using the latest ARM cores because it chose not to use them on the Kirin 970. It will use the latest cores on the following design. Using them on the Kirin 970 would have delayed the release. There are other reasons too. With this decision they still have a far better modem than anyone else, dual ISPs, a better sensor controller, the NPU, better efficiencies, far better GPU etc.

    And even with the 960 (and below) they recently became the world's second largest handset manufacturer, moving past Apple. They even decided to pull out of the low end.

    Apple designs its own chips because it wants differentiation with the rest of the market and is still using external IP on the GPUs on most of its phones and in many other areas. Let's face it, Apple has its biggest eggs in one basket. If the bottom falls out of that basket it wouldn't be a disaster for users, just Apple and Wall Street. The company would still be a billion dollar company. The same cannot be said of Huawei. Until relatively recently it wasn't even in the handset business. Huawei invests a lot in R&D but still has many agreements with other companies. Its phones are the fruit of many different IP agreements and of all kinds. Some are exclusive and some are not. Some involve shared IP and some don't.

    Perhaps you are focusing too much on benchmarks and not seeing the bigger picture. Don't forget that Apple has had to play catch-up in many areas with their new phones. 

    avon b7  I agree with your statement ...........
    Oh look, another brand new troll with 1 post agreeing with another well-known troll. Like we've NEEEEEVEEERRRR seen that before here at AI.

    Like I've stated before, nothing gets the trolls going more than a discussion on Apple A-Series processors. It really bothers them to know just how far ahead Apple is compared to the Samsung and Qualcomm processors they're stuck using on their inferior devices.
    I assume it doesn't help their "Apple is only good at marketing" when Apple designs their own chips and benchmarks prove that Apple leads the pack.
    Yeh I think that is it alright. Its pretty odd posting too - who here cares about a chip that may or may not be in some Android manufacturer's phone sometimes the far future, and may be able to do something or other we also don't care about, because we have iPhones and this is an Apple centric site. There might be parts of the internet that could be more pre-disposed to this. Not here. And every freaking thread, the same argument. 

    (He is right about Apple needing to -- and going to --  sell more lower priced units but thats pretty obvious though. )
    I don't think it is that obvious - at least to MANY people in this forum. Even in this thread, some people have argued against it.
  • Reply 92 of 119
    I thought TB;DR meant “too boring; didn’t read” 😂

    another great DED article. 
  • Reply 93 of 119
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,232member
    melgross said:
    It will be interesting to see whether Apple decides to support Google’s codecs. It’s up to Apple to do that. Since it’s free to support, I can’t see why they wouldn’t, unless it just corporate rivalry on their part.

    remember that Apple never supported FLAC for music either, but now they do. So that’s a change.


    More like when will Google stop pushing their own inferior standards down everyone's throat and use the industry accepted HEVC (h.265) instead?
    Google’s standard is license free. Companies like Apple have to pay for the right to use these new standards. No one pays for Google’s. There is no reason for Google to support what Apple supports anymore, since Apple only has 16% marketshare around the world.

    nd Google would have to pay for these new standards too, with YouTube. And as the biggest supplier of videos, they would pay a lot. What is the incentive for them to also support HEVC? There really isn't any. But it would be pretty cheap for Apple to also support theirs.

    some of you guys need to get your heads out of the sand,
    gatorguy
  • Reply 94 of 119
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,232member

    melgross said:
    It will be interesting to see whether Apple decides to support Google’s codecs. It’s up to Apple to do that. Since it’s free to support, I can’t see why they wouldn’t, unless it just corporate rivalry on their part.

    remember that Apple never supported FLAC for music either, but now they do. So that’s a change.
    Why would Apple support Google codecs? Does Apple support Flash? No, but we can still use Flash thanks to the Flash plug-in on macOS. We use Microsoft's Silverlight plug-in to watch Netflix. Google must just provide its own plug-in for its codec. If it provides its own codec for tvOS and Apple refuses that then we may question that. But since Google doesn't provide a plug-in for macOS, it is most probably that it doesn't provide a codec for tvOS either. They might well implement it in their YouTube tvOS app. So the truth is not Apple does not support Google's codecs, the truth is Google's YouTube app does not support Google's own 4K codec on tvOS. If I'm wrong and it supports then correct me.
    Well, here we go again. A post with nothing relevant to say bout this. Flash wasn’t supported because it didn’t really work in mobile, and sucked battery life like crazy. Steve did say that he would support it in iOS if Adobe did get it working well, but they never did.

    this is entirely different, and isn’t even the slightest bit comparable. I wish people wouldn’t take two entirely different things and mash them together as if they were the same.

    Microsoft has discontinued Silverlight several years ago, though you can still find it.

    theres a matter of two companies talking to each other. If Apple wanted to support this, Google would be very happy for them to do so. It’s much more likely that Apple doesn’t want to, as least, for now.

    but remember that Apple never supported native FLAC decode, either, but they do now. They made a choice to do so. That’s all it is.
  • Reply 95 of 119
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,232member
    tmay said:
    melgross said:
    It will be interesting to see whether Apple decides to support Google’s codecs. It’s up to Apple to do that. Since it’s free to support, I can’t see why they wouldn’t, unless it just corporate rivalry on their part.

    remember that Apple never supported FLAC for music either, but now they do. So that’s a change.


    More like when will Google stop pushing their own inferior standards down everyone's throat and use the industry accepted HEVC (h.265) instead?
    AFAIK, HEVC is entirely free to the viewer, so I'm not seeing that this is any issue for Google other than additional control of it's YouTube media ecosystem on the creation/upload side, and a relatively small license fee for HEVC content delivery.

    I'm sure that Gatorguy will provide the details at some point.

    Still, lots of YouTube content loses nothing at 480P, so me being forced to watch anything at 1080P quality in lieu of 4k isn't going to cause me any grief.
    The license fee depends on usage. The more Google sends down the pipe, the more they pay. It could amount to several million a year for them. It’s not trivial.
  • Reply 96 of 119
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,232member
    So if I record video using HEVC, does that mean friends without an iPhone 8 (or above) may not be able to view it? When I post the video to Facebook, does it remain in HEVC or does it convert to a more commonly available format?
    Apple’s devices look to see if a receiving device can accept the new standards, if so, they get sent that way, but I’d they can’t, or if it’s impossiblt to tell, such as when sending in an e-mail, it will be converted.
  • Reply 97 of 119
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,033member
    sully54 said:
    I thought TB;DR meant “too boring; didn’t read” 😂

    another great DED article. 
    That was my first thought, too. It seems fitting since most people, even those that like tech, tend to find SoC design boring.
  • Reply 98 of 119
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,232member

    alandail said:
    melgross said:
    It will be interesting to see whether Apple decides to support Google’s codecs. It’s up to Apple to do that. Since it’s free to support, I can’t see why they wouldn’t, unless it just corporate rivalry on their part.

    remember that Apple never supported FLAC for music either, but now they do. So that’s a change.

    They don't want the battery life hit or the extra resources (and compromises in other areas) it takes to avoid that hit with hardware acceleration.  Apple is big enough that their requirement of the industry standard H.265 will ensure content is available in that format.
    That’s what you say, but it doesn’t make it true. YouTube is Google’s, that’s, by far, the biggest provider of video over the internet. Google can do whatever they want. It’s been pretty obvious, for years now, they they want to do away with licensed for pay standards. While that won’t happen for a number of things, they can force that for YouTube. If enough Apple users complain that they see 4K over YouTube, at some point, Apple will give in.

    theres no evidence that V9 uses more battery resources.
  • Reply 99 of 119
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,713member
    melgross said:
    tmay said:
    melgross said:
    It will be interesting to see whether Apple decides to support Google’s codecs. It’s up to Apple to do that. Since it’s free to support, I can’t see why they wouldn’t, unless it just corporate rivalry on their part.

    remember that Apple never supported FLAC for music either, but now they do. So that’s a change.


    More like when will Google stop pushing their own inferior standards down everyone's throat and use the industry accepted HEVC (h.265) instead?
    AFAIK, HEVC is entirely free to the viewer, so I'm not seeing that this is any issue for Google other than additional control of it's YouTube media ecosystem on the creation/upload side, and a relatively small license fee for HEVC content delivery.

    I'm sure that Gatorguy will provide the details at some point.

    Still, lots of YouTube content loses nothing at 480P, so me being forced to watch anything at 1080P quality in lieu of 4k isn't going to cause me any grief.
    The license fee depends on usage. The more Google sends down the pipe, the more they pay. It could amount to several million a year for them. It’s not trivial.

    http://x265.org/hevc-advance-reduces-proposed-license-fees/

    I don't know that those are the final numbers, but the fees look trivial, although not free.
  • Reply 100 of 119
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,232member
    mizhou said:
    melgross said:
    It will be interesting to see whether Apple decides to support Google’s codecs. It’s up to Apple to do that. Since it’s free to support, I can’t see why they wouldn’t, unless it just corporate rivalry on their part.

    remember that Apple never supported FLAC for music either, but now they do. So that’s a change.
    Maybe on a Mac or AppleTV, but decoding 4K video is rather computational intensive, and therefore Apple has implemented h.265 decoding in hardware on the iPhone. While it may be free of licensing costs to use VP9, implementing a hardware decoder for it is not.
    Therefore Apple can implement it in software, but that means the video might lag, because its too computational intensive to decode in software, or even if it's fast enough it will have a negative impact on the power consumption and battery life.

    I think it's better if every streaming service could agree on one standard like HEVC.
    You don’t actually know that. Older Apple devices can’t hardware decode any of this, it’s only since the A9 that it can be done, and only since the A10 that it can be done properly. So this isn’t a real issue. And there’s no reason to believe that Apple couldn’t use hardware decode if they wanted to. The hardware and software are all their own. If they wanted to, they could use it and decode it.
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