I'm with Gruber here, it's nice, but is it enough to justify 170 vs just 70 for a streamer like the Fire TV with 4K/HDR.
What would make it worth it for me is if they started funding games, maybe even making them internally, that took advantage of its actively cooled A10X, rather than the usual low graphics iOS games making it over to the ATV. Then, another 100 bucks over the Fire TV for a nifty microconsole might be worth it.
I also think lack of mode switching and trying to stretch colour spaces is a mistake, as per Nilays review.
Why does one Blu-Ray player cost $70 and the other $170? Why does one set of headphones cost $70 and the other costs $170? People are making a big deal about a pricing issue that is seen ALL THE TIME in the electronics market. Fire TV does not actually provide hardware that is as good or software access that is as good. The functionality is not even close to being as varied as the ATV. Charging a premium for that is not unique to Apple specifically or electronics in general.
Who cares how good the hardware is when the device is being used as a streaming media player. I don’t think I need an A10X chip to stream Netflix. I’m highly skeptical many people are using TV to play games otherwise Apple would be promoting game play a lot more and probably would even have their own game controller by now.
Go try one of those Fire Sticks or Roku Sticks and try to watch 4k content.
or try using one of the streaming Live TV packages like Playstation Vue or Sling TV.
The extra horsepower in the A-chips make a huge difference. Use a cheap stick and you get stuttering menu's and a crappy user experience.
You are using the same argument people use regarding buying a shitty $200 Android phone versus an iPhone.
On paper they sound like a good idea. But try living with those crappy streamers for a week.
Well a lot of people are living with them and either think the trade off is worth the cheaper price or they’re not experiencing those issues. Apple is constantly crowing about Apple Watch being the best selling watch on the market. When is the last time Apple mentioned TV sales? They don’t because these cheaper options are winning out. And as you yourself said most people don’t have 4K TVs so the extra horsepowerto push 4K content doesn’t matter.
Dolby Atmos: the problem doesn’t have to do with current content, although there is more than you know, most UHD blu-ray releases have Dolby Atmos, and most of those have Dolby Atmos on VUDU...even some remastered for 4K/UHD titles that were finished on film, new scans are utilizing 4K resolution and HDR, (HDR is mostly a way to get digital closer to the dynamic range of film), also have remastered Dolby Atmos audio, such as Blade Runner or Labyrinth...the Classic Spiderman trilogy (Tobey McGuire) is coming to UHD with new 4K HDR scans & Dolby Atmos...you can also get Game of Thrones on HD blu-ray with Dolby Atmos, to name a few titles, so, it may be up-and-coming, but it really is well underway. So Apple does need to find a way to implement it, let’s give them feedback for this.
Dolby Atmos: the problem doesn’t have to do with current content, although there is more than you know, most UHD blu-ray releases have Dolby Atmos, and most of those have Dolby Atmos on VUDU...even some remastered for 4K/UHD titles that were finished on film, new scans are utilizing 4K resolution and HDR, (HDR is mostly a way to get digital closer to the dynamic range of film), also have remastered Dolby Atmos audio, such as Blade Runner or Labyrinth...the Classic Spiderman trilogy (Tobey McGuire) is coming to UHD with new 4K HDR scans & Dolby Atmos...you can also get Game of Thrones on HD blu-ray with Dolby Atmos, to name a few titles, so, it may be up-and-coming, but it really is well underway. So Apple does need to find a way to implement it, let’s give them feedback for this.
Again, like I said in the review, Apple has said that it is coming.
"But, we couldn't generate a H.265 file that would be recognized on the Apple TV. The file will load into iTunes, but Home Sharing just won't pick it up. This same file loaded into VLC plays fine, and isn't transcoded to a lower resolution.
So, the lack of Home Sharing picking up the file isn't a technical limitation of the Apple TV 4K, and appears at this point to be a choice that someone made along the way to actively prevent this kind of thing.."
The studio do not want people ripping Blue-ray or getting 4K H.265 content for pirate site and being able to stream them to the ATV. I wonder if Plex from a media server would work.
I disagree that studios are holding this up. It makes no sense.
All of our iPhone camera content will be in h265 moving forward. So using home sharing to play out your home videos in h265 would not only be obvious, but perfectly legally. The studios can’t hold back feature like that. I feel like this is a temporary issue and a small oversight.
Also, if you can still stream 4k in h264 it’s not really preventing pirates at all. Sure you’re file size could be a bit cumbersome depending on your data rate, but pirates still have to rip the file regardless of whether they transcode it to h264 or h265. I’m relatively sure VLC for the Apple TV will play h265 files if you really wanted to.
So, all someone who’s already inclined to be a tinkerer, has to do is find another streaming app. Most likely this is an iTunes limitation. As I recall last time I tested out h265 with iTunes it didn’t exactly like it, meaning it might not even show up in your library to begin with, but if it was in exactly the right specs it might play and stream. I also remember maybe having to use airplay from my Mac instead of using home sharing directly through the “computers” app on the atv. It’s been a little while. That said, this seems like a non issue and probably a temporary issue.
Apple is charging a premium price (although considering what the box does, it's actually quite miraculous) compared to the competition. It seems to me that the technology should be leading edge as well.
...
According to the tech specs, the box only seems to support MPEG-4 at resolutions up to 640x480. I'm creating videos even in the mass-market iMovie at 1080p. And iMovie now supposedly supports 4K. So iMovie (and FinalCut Pro) can create it but Apple TV can't support it? I don't understand that.
And why is this thing cutting out paragraph breaks?
I would say the ATV is definitely cutting edge. These things aren’t that impressive. They stream video. Where Apple raised the bar is the apps and games. You don’t have anything even remotely as good as what Apple offers on any other device and that’s because of the engine. Hopefully yes Apple can update the ATV for future specs, but if it’s a transition two years in the making I’d personally be fine just buying another box.
Also, why are you worried about mpeg4 at 640p? Maybe I’m not understanding the problem. Yes an actual mpeg4 codec will only play at 640p but mp4 as a container encoded in h264 (which is how almost all files labels mp4 are actually encoded) play just fine at all resolutions. mpeg4 codec is “dead” and has been for quite some time because it was a very lossy codec.
HDR10 and 10+ are two different standards based off the same core. HDR10+ is Samsung's particular implementation, and is more like Dolby Vision than HDR10, providing color table data as needed, instead of (grossly simplified) all at once.
When Apple says HDR, they mean it in a "kleenex meaning all nasal tissue" way as encompassing HDR10 or Dolby Vision.
Apple does not conflate HDR and Dolby Vision. Those are separately selelectable from the Video popdown menu. A TV that does Dolby Vision (better technique because it provides color tables per scene or even frame instead of one table per movie) can do HDR10.
I also understand that the 10 is the number of bits describing the color table while Dolby Vision uses 12 bits for the color table. My LG OLED 65E7P supports Dolby Vision and of course HDR10.
The Dolby Vision also requires licensing from Dolby and some TV manufacturers like Samsung have refused to pay for the license.
HDR10 and 10+ are two different standards based off the same core. HDR10+ is Samsung's particular implementation, and is more like Dolby Vision than HDR10, providing color table data as needed, instead of (grossly simplified) all at once.
When Apple says HDR, they mean it in a "kleenex meaning all nasal tissue" way as encompassing HDR10 or Dolby Vision.
Apple does not conflate HDR and Dolby Vision. Those are separately selelectable from the Video popdown menu. A TV that does Dolby Vision (better technique because it provides color tables per scene or even frame instead of one table per movie) can do HDR10.
I also understand that the 10 is the number of bits describing the color table while Dolby Vision uses 12 bits for the color table. My LG OLED 65E7P supports Dolby Vision and of course HDR10.
The Dolby Vision also requires licensing from Dolby and some TV manufacturers like Samsung have refused to pay for the license.
Didn't Schiller make a statement during the Apple TV 4K segment that Dolby Vision was "the best HDR experience"? I forget his exact words, but it sounded like a paid placement, despite being accurate.
HDR10 and 10+ are two different standards based off the same core. HDR10+ is Samsung's particular implementation, and is more like Dolby Vision than HDR10, providing color table data as needed, instead of (grossly simplified) all at once.
When Apple says HDR, they mean it in a "kleenex meaning all nasal tissue" way as encompassing HDR10 or Dolby Vision.
Apple does not conflate HDR and Dolby Vision. Those are separately selelectable from the Video popdown menu. A TV that does Dolby Vision (better technique because it provides color tables per scene or even frame instead of one table per movie) can do HDR10.
I also understand that the 10 is the number of bits describing the color table while Dolby Vision uses 12 bits for the color table. My LG OLED 65E7P supports Dolby Vision and of course HDR10.
The Dolby Vision also requires licensing from Dolby and some TV manufacturers like Samsung have refused to pay for the license.
They most certainly do. The pop-down is a setting, the same as resolution. There is no spec called HDR. There's HDR10, HDR10+, Dolby Vision, and one other whose name evades me at the moment.
They call the device the "Apple TV 4K with HDR."
They don't call it the Apple TV 720p, 1080p, and 4K with HDR10 and Dolby Vision."
Dolby Atmos: the problem doesn’t have to do with current content, although there is more than you know, most UHD blu-ray releases have Dolby Atmos, and most of those have Dolby Atmos on VUDU...even some remastered for 4K/UHD titles that were finished on film, new scans are utilizing 4K resolution and HDR, (HDR is mostly a way to get digital closer to the dynamic range of film), also have remastered Dolby Atmos audio, such as Blade Runner or Labyrinth...the Classic Spiderman trilogy (Tobey McGuire) is coming to UHD with new 4K HDR scans & Dolby Atmos...you can also get Game of Thrones on HD blu-ray with Dolby Atmos, to name a few titles, so, it may be up-and-coming, but it really is well underway. So Apple does need to find a way to implement it, let’s give them feedback for this.
Again, like I said in the review, Apple has said that it is coming.
Who at Apple said that? Everyone’s source is from the Verge reviewer, who said that Apple said they were working on it, so, it’s all third hand information. I still think we need to give them feedback so they know how many of us want the feature.
"But, we couldn't generate a H.265 file that would be recognized on the Apple TV. The file will load into iTunes, but Home Sharing just won't pick it up. This same file loaded into VLC plays fine, and isn't transcoded to a lower resolution.
So, the lack of Home Sharing picking up the file isn't a technical limitation of the Apple TV 4K, and appears at this point to be a choice that someone made along the way to actively prevent this kind of thing.."
The studio do not want people ripping Blue-ray or getting 4K H.265 content for pirate site and being able to stream them to the ATV. I wonder if Plex from a media server would work.
I disagree that studios are holding this up. It makes no sense.
All of our iPhone camera content will be in h265 moving forward. So using home sharing to play out your home videos in h265 would not only be obvious, but perfectly legally. The studios can’t hold back feature like that. I feel like this is a temporary issue and a small oversight.
Also, if you can still stream 4k in h264 it’s not really preventing pirates at all. Sure you’re file size could be a bit cumbersome depending on your data rate, but pirates still have to rip the file regardless of whether they transcode it to h264 or h265. I’m relatively sure VLC for the Apple TV will play h265 files if you really wanted to.
So, all someone who’s already inclined to be a tinkerer, has to do is find another streaming app. Most likely this is an iTunes limitation. As I recall last time I tested out h265 with iTunes it didn’t exactly like it, meaning it might not even show up in your library to begin with, but if it was in exactly the right specs it might play and stream. I also remember maybe having to use airplay from my Mac instead of using home sharing directly through the “computers” app on the atv. It’s been a little while. That said, this seems like a non issue and probably a temporary issue.
As I tried to write earlier, I think the only limitation is that AirPlay 2 has not been implemented yet, I think HEVC/H.265 outside of iTunes is all tied to the AirPlay 2 code, which, for iOS 11 betas, was in the first 5 betas, from what I’ve heard, and then removed, in fact, Apple removed the references to AirPlay 2, it used to be there on their iOS 11 site back in June. Now they say it’s coming in a future update.
Not this shit again. Why do people think if Apple sold a $50 crap box it will solve all problems? These are the same idiots who bitch if a leading edge technology isn’t available on launch day.(Atmos)
I believe the Apple TV is too cheap. I’d much prefer an Apple TV with a custom gaming chip faster than A11, AR features and a Siri remote with M-processor, 3D Touch and Taptic Engine for $249-$299.
Imagine a keynote for that! ”Streaming boxes are good for streaming but are terrible for gaming. As a matter of fact most are dropping gaming all together! Gaming consoles are great for gaming but the controls and apps for streaming are tedious. Neither consoles nor streamers are great at delivering useful apps...... well today.... we present a device that can do all 3 really well!”
I've been visiting this site for some time now but never really got involved in any of the conversations. I had to create an account just to upvote this though. This is my biggest dream for Apple to put a bigger focus on gaming. Not just creating the hardware to let other developers create great games but also put some first party effort into it themselves.
Having a device that acts as an awesome streamer and a very capable gaming machine at the price point you mentioned would definitely be value for money. Even the most casual of gamers might also see value in this if it can get them into gaming a bit. Think somewhere between the casual market and the hardcore market.
While many others may disagree, I used to love Game Center and I wish they would bring back a new and improved version more inline with what Steam, PS4 and Xbox are offering. With all their OS's combined they could instantly create one of the biggest online gaming communities through Game Center. iOS and tvOS crossover for gaming (which already exists for the most part) and even, in those cases where it's actually feasible AND if as you said they brought out a dedicated Apple TV for gaming, tvOS and macOS crossover for gaming would also be epic. Like I read in an Ars Technica in-depth review of High Sierra however, right now the macOS App Store is being left out in the cold whilst all the other OS's can play more nicely with each other. It also doesn't help that games purchased on the Mac App Store can only be played in a separate sandbox, cut off from everyone else.
In addition, with most console providers aside from Sony's PS4 embracing platform cross play, gaming could be even better. It's a step forward that the new Minecraft update on iOS can now do this, but more effort could be made still.
tldr - Imagine a world where someone can play "insert awesome new game title here" on a mac (either steam or app store) against people playing on xBox's, Windows machines, iOS devices, Apple TV's and even PS4's (once Sony take their collective fingers out of their collective asses and actually allow it).
So, how does one best dump 4k video from iPhone in h.265 to Apple TV? Stream on Airplay or upload to iCloud and then download to Apple TV, or better, can I upload to Apple TV directly over the network?
My 2015 Samsung TV seems to do a good job of up scaling to 4K. Am I better off using the TV or the Apple TV for the upscaling? How would I set it up? Mark
My 2015 Samsung TV seems to do a good job of up scaling to 4K. Am I better off using the TV or the Apple TV for the upscaling? How would I set it up? Mark
The first device in the stream does the upscaling -- in the normal case, the Apple TV. If the TV is already getting 4K resolution, it won't apply additional upscaling to it.
You could always set the Apple TV resolution to a lower one, say, 1080p, and see how the television does on its own, and compare. Might be subjective.
But, we couldn't generate a H.265 file that would be recognized on the Apple TV. The file will load into iTunes, but Home Sharing just won't pick it up. This same file loaded into VLC plays fine, and isn't transcoded to a lower resolution.
So, the lack of Home Sharing picking up the file isn't a technical limitation of the Apple TV 4K, and appears at this point to be a choice that someone made along the way to actively prevent this kind of thing.
As someone waiting on the iPhone X -- to record 4K home videos of my 4 year old -- does this apply to iPhone or iMovie content as well? In other words, does the "Edit With... iTunes" function work with HEVC content that has captured on an iPhone & imported to Photos on High Sierra?
As far as upscaling goes, the ATV 4K does that automatically, no way to change it, you can manually change to 1080p output if you so choose, of course no HDR that way. Most people are complaining the ATV 4K does not change modes on the fly, but picks the “best” setting for your TV, at 60Hz, then upscales both resultion, and SDR to HDR/DV if your TV is compatible, with results that are mixed, sometimes good sometimes not. People in home theater forums are returning these for this alone, because it requires you to change modes manually depending on what content you’re playing, unlike UHD blu-ray players or other 4K set tops, also giving Apple feedback, which I recommend...they need to get this right, things are not simple with UHD, like it or not, and I do think Apple could give us the option to auto change modes depending on content.
Yup. Theoretically it may take me as many as 14 steps to change my settings for one program, and back again. If I didn't have Siri to take me to Settings, I'd have to add many more steps.
1) Let's say I'm watching CBS streaming programming in 1080p 60Hz SDR, and I want to watch a movie on iTunes. I press the mic button and ask Siri to take me to Settings. 2) For the sake of brevity, let's say I only go to Settings to change my video format. So it's already on the last mode I selected.** From there, I swipe down to get to the "Other" options, to take me to the second page of format settings. 3) On the second page, I scroll down to 4K 24Hz HDR. 4) Then it asks me to confirm the setting (in the event my TV does not support it). 5) Then I tell Siri to take me to iTunes, where I watch my 4K HDR movie. 6) After the movie I want to go back to CBS, so I ask Siri to go back to Settings. 7) Hopefully Settings is still open to my last selection.** If so, I have to hit the Menu button to take me back to the main video format page. 8) Then I scroll up to the 1080p 60Hz SDR setting and select it. 9) I confirm that setting. 10) I ask Siri to take me to CBS.
**if for some reason the Settings have reverted to the main Settings menu, as sometimes happens for no reason I can correlate, I have to add the following steps: 1) Navigate to the audio/video settings menu and select. 2) Navigate to the Format menu, and select. Then proceed from step 2 above. 3 & 4) Repeat steps 1 & 2 if necessary to revert, and proceed from step 7 above.
There's a number of things Apple could do to speed this up and make it more convenient, short of automatic switching for a native source, as it should. For instance, there's no reason I can't just tell the ATV what resolutions my TV accepts after testing, so that they do not require confirmation after each selection. Moreover, I should just be able to tell Siri to: "switch picture format to 4K 25Hz HDR", and have it happen without even leaving the app I'm currently in, or worst case scenario, taking me there so I can visually confirm it. Even better would be to identify my common supported resolutions by category so I could just say "4K HDR movie", or "HD TV show", etc.
So, how does one best dump 4k video from iPhone in h.265 to Apple TV? Stream on Airplay or upload to iCloud and then download to Apple TV, or better, can I upload to Apple TV directly over the network?
My 2015 Samsung TV seems to do a good job of up scaling to 4K. Am I better off using the TV or the Apple TV for the upscaling? How would I set it up? Mark
My 2015 Samsung TV seems to do a good job of up scaling to 4K. Am I better off using the TV or the Apple TV for the upscaling? How would I set it up? Mark
The first device in the stream does the upscaling -- in the normal case, the Apple TV. If the TV is already getting 4K resolution, it won't apply additional upscaling to it.
You could always set the Apple TV resolution to a lower one, say, 1080p, and see how the television does on its own, and compare. Might be subjective.
But, we couldn't generate a H.265 file that would be recognized on the Apple TV. The file will load into iTunes, but Home Sharing just won't pick it up. This same file loaded into VLC plays fine, and isn't transcoded to a lower resolution.
So, the lack of Home Sharing picking up the file isn't a technical limitation of the Apple TV 4K, and appears at this point to be a choice that someone made along the way to actively prevent this kind of thing.
As someone waiting on the iPhone X -- to record 4K home videos of my 4 year old -- does this apply to iPhone or iMovie content as well? In other words, does the "Edit With... iTunes" function work with HEVC content that has captured on an iPhone & imported to Photos on High Sierra?
As far as upscaling goes, the ATV 4K does that automatically, no way to change it, you can manually change to 1080p output if you so choose, of course no HDR that way. Most people are complaining the ATV 4K does not change modes on the fly, but picks the “best” setting for your TV, at 60Hz, then upscales both resultion, and SDR to HDR/DV if your TV is compatible, with results that are mixed, sometimes good sometimes not. People in home theater forums are returning these for this alone, because it requires you to change modes manually depending on what content you’re playing, unlike UHD blu-ray players or other 4K set tops, also giving Apple feedback, which I recommend...they need to get this right, things are not simple with UHD, like it or not, and I do think Apple could give us the option to auto change modes depending on content.
HEVC/H.265 streaming...HEVC/H.265 is new to all apple products, and not yet fully implemented. AirPlay 2 was pulled during the beta process and Apple says its coming in a future OS update. They pulled any info. on it, but, I’m 99% sure AirPlay 2 will handle HEVC/H.265 streaming from iOS devices and High Sierra (and video in iCloud), once implemented. So, it’s not that ATV 4K won’t, but, it will in the (unknown timeframe) future. For now it seems to be working for iTunes and Netflix (with 4K/UHD Premium subscription), VUDU has not yet been updated, Amazon Prime should come with 4K HDR, (sometime between now and dec. 31st). ...iMovie update has already been pushed out with HEVC compatibility the 25th for High Sierra, Photos app in High Sierra also, but, again I think waiting on AirPlay 2 to be implemented for streaming to other Apple devices.
I'm actually pretty extremely disappointed with the new Apple TV. Not having a native picture option is almost a deal breaker for me. I ran the HDMI test so the Apple TV defaults to 4K Dolby Vision for everything on my TV. I went and checked out some older nature documentaries I have on iTunes and they didn't look very good at all. It's not very consumer friendly having to constantly change the resolution settings to the source material. I'm not going to return the Apple TV, but I do plan on sending feedback to Apple. I'm hoping they make changes in a future update by adding a native picture option.
I don’t disagree that the new Apple TV 4K is “worth it” at $179/199, but I think Apple is missing a big strategic opportunity re: positioning/pricing.
I really wish they’d added a low end box (A9/16GB?) at maybe $69 or $79 and make up any initial loss with iTunes revenue. Just a simple 4K upgrade to the 3rd gen, no aspirations to be anything other than a 4K upgrade (ie no gaming).
I guess maybe they figured they’re too late, with Roku (and Amazon and Google to a lesser extent) already too well established wrt market/mind share, to do what they did with the $329 iPad, the $159 AirPods and even the watch at $249: completely remove all available oxygen, leaving almost no room for competitors on price and subsequently, own the space.
I guess maybe they figured they’re too late, with Roku (and Amazon and Google to a lesser extent) already too well established wrt market/mind share, to do what they did with the $329 iPad, the $159 AirPods and even the watch at $249: completely remove all available oxygen, leaving almost no room for competitors on price and subsequently, own the space.
Too late? What company is more successful in their price range? The reason Roku and Amazon and Google have to go with price undercutting only is specifically because they don't have hardware/software that's competitive at a higher price range. It's basically the same dynamic as phones, where Apple does not have the largest market share but is the most successful at selling higher end products.
Dolby Atmos: the problem doesn’t have to do with current content, although there is more than you know, most UHD blu-ray releases have Dolby Atmos, and most of those have Dolby Atmos on VUDU...even some remastered for 4K/UHD titles that were finished on film, new scans are utilizing 4K resolution and HDR, (HDR is mostly a way to get digital closer to the dynamic range of film), also have remastered Dolby Atmos audio, such as Blade Runner or Labyrinth...the Classic Spiderman trilogy (Tobey McGuire) is coming to UHD with new 4K HDR scans & Dolby Atmos...you can also get Game of Thrones on HD blu-ray with Dolby Atmos, to name a few titles, so, it may be up-and-coming, but it really is well underway. So Apple does need to find a way to implement it, let’s give them feedback for this.
Again, like I said in the review, Apple has said that it is coming.
Who at Apple said that? Everyone’s source is from the Verge reviewer, who said that Apple said they were working on it, so, it’s all third hand information. I still think we need to give them feedback so they know how many of us want the feature.
We've been told the same thing, by two people inside Apple, on two different occasions.
So, how does one best dump 4k video from iPhone in h.265 to Apple TV? Stream on Airplay or upload to iCloud and then download to Apple TV, or better, can I upload to Apple TV directly over the network?
My 2015 Samsung TV seems to do a good job of up scaling to 4K. Am I better off using the TV or the Apple TV for the upscaling? How would I set it up? Mark
My 2015 Samsung TV seems to do a good job of up scaling to 4K. Am I better off using the TV or the Apple TV for the upscaling? How would I set it up? Mark
The first device in the stream does the upscaling -- in the normal case, the Apple TV. If the TV is already getting 4K resolution, it won't apply additional upscaling to it.
You could always set the Apple TV resolution to a lower one, say, 1080p, and see how the television does on its own, and compare. Might be subjective.
But, we couldn't generate a H.265 file that would be recognized on the Apple TV. The file will load into iTunes, but Home Sharing just won't pick it up. This same file loaded into VLC plays fine, and isn't transcoded to a lower resolution.
So, the lack of Home Sharing picking up the file isn't a technical limitation of the Apple TV 4K, and appears at this point to be a choice that someone made along the way to actively prevent this kind of thing.
As someone waiting on the iPhone X -- to record 4K home videos of my 4 year old -- does this apply to iPhone or iMovie content as well? In other words, does the "Edit With... iTunes" function work with HEVC content that has captured on an iPhone & imported to Photos on High Sierra?
As far as upscaling goes, the ATV 4K does that automatically, no way to change it, you can manually change to 1080p output if you so choose, of course no HDR that way. Most people are complaining the ATV 4K does not change modes on the fly, but picks the “best” setting for your TV, at 60Hz, then upscales both resultion, and SDR to HDR/DV if your TV is compatible, with results that are mixed, sometimes good sometimes not. People in home theater forums are returning these for this alone, because it requires you to change modes manually depending on what content you’re playing, unlike UHD blu-ray players or other 4K set tops, also giving Apple feedback, which I recommend...they need to get this right, things are not simple with UHD, like it or not, and I do think Apple could give us the option to auto change modes depending on content.
HEVC/H.265 streaming...HEVC/H.265 is new to all apple products, and not yet fully implemented. AirPlay 2 was pulled during the beta process and Apple says its coming in a future OS update. They pulled any info. on it, but, I’m 99% sure AirPlay 2 will handle HEVC/H.265 streaming from iOS devices and High Sierra (and video in iCloud), once implemented. So, it’s not that ATV 4K won’t, but, it will in the (unknown timeframe) future. For now it seems to be working for iTunes and Netflix (with 4K/UHD Premium subscription), VUDU has not yet been updated, Amazon Prime should come with 4K HDR, (sometime between now and dec. 31st). ...iMovie update has already been pushed out with HEVC compatibility the 25th for High Sierra, Photos app in High Sierra also, but, again I think waiting on AirPlay 2 to be implemented for streaming to other Apple devices.
I'm actually pretty extremely disappointed with the new Apple TV. Not having a native picture option is almost a deal breaker for me. I ran the HDMI test so the Apple TV defaults to 4K Dolby Vision for everything on my TV. I went and checked out some older nature documentaries I have on iTunes and they didn't look very good at all. It's not very consumer friendly having to constantly change the resolution settings to the source material. I'm not going to return the Apple TV, but I do plan on sending feedback to Apple. I'm hoping they make changes in a future update by adding a native picture option.
It's an extremely consumer friendly decision to have a default, set resolution. It's not very tweaker-friendly.
I'm with Gruber here, it's nice, but is it enough to justify 170 vs just 70 for a streamer like the Fire TV with 4K/HDR.
What would make it worth it for me is if they started funding games, maybe even making them internally, that took advantage of its actively cooled A10X, rather than the usual low graphics iOS games making it over to the ATV. Then, another 100 bucks over the Fire TV for a nifty microconsole might be worth it.
I also think lack of mode switching and trying to stretch colour spaces is a mistake, as per Nilays review.
Why does one Blu-Ray player cost $70 and the other $170? Why does one set of headphones cost $70 and the other costs $170? People are making a big deal about a pricing issue that is seen ALL THE TIME in the electronics market. Fire TV does not actually provide hardware that is as good or software access that is as good. The functionality is not even close to being as varied as the ATV. Charging a premium for that is not unique to Apple specifically or electronics in general.
Who cares how good the hardware is when the device is being used as a streaming media player. I don’t think I need an A10X chip to stream Netflix. I’m highly skeptical many people are using TV to play games otherwise Apple would be promoting game play a lot more and probably would even have their own game controller by now.
Go try one of those Fire Sticks or Roku Sticks and try to watch 4k content.
or try using one of the streaming Live TV packages like Playstation Vue or Sling TV.
The extra horsepower in the A-chips make a huge difference. Use a cheap stick and you get stuttering menu's and a crappy user experience.
You are using the same argument people use regarding buying a shitty $200 Android phone versus an iPhone.
On paper they sound like a good idea. But try living with those crappy streamers for a week.
Well a lot of people are living with them and either think the trade off is worth the cheaper price or they’re not experiencing those issues. Apple is constantly crowing about Apple Watch being the best selling watch on the market. When is the last time Apple mentioned TV sales? They don’t because these cheaper options are winning out. And as you yourself said most people don’t have 4K TVs so the extra horsepowerto push 4K content doesn’t matter.
Yeah in the same way that cheap android knockoffs are “winning”.
Meamwhile, any time i have to use somebody’s knockoff to take a picture for them i’m shocked by the lag and crappy images. If you expect apple to produce cheap stuff to compete with knockoffs you haven’t been paying attention...for 40 years.
HDR10 and 10+ are two different standards based off the same core. HDR10+ is Samsung's particular implementation, and is more like Dolby Vision than HDR10, providing color table data as needed, instead of (grossly simplified) all at once.
When Apple says HDR, they mean it in a "kleenex meaning all nasal tissue" way as encompassing HDR10 or Dolby Vision.
Apple does not conflate HDR and Dolby Vision. Those are separately selelectable from the Video popdown menu. A TV that does Dolby Vision (better technique because it provides color tables per scene or even frame instead of one table per movie) can do HDR10.
I also understand that the 10 is the number of bits describing the color table while Dolby Vision uses 12 bits for the color table. My LG OLED 65E7P supports Dolby Vision and of course HDR10.
The Dolby Vision also requires licensing from Dolby and some TV manufacturers like Samsung have refused to pay for the license.
Didn't Schiller make a statement during the Apple TV 4K segment that Dolby Vision was "the best HDR experience"? I forget his exact words, but it sounded like a paid placement, despite being accurate.
If he believes it then they’ll say it. In no way do I believe Apple accepts advertising money for their keynotes.
Who cares how good the hardware is when the device is being used as a streaming media player. I don’t think I need an A10X chip to stream Netflix. I’m highly skeptical many people are using TV to play games otherwise Apple would be promoting game play a lot more and probably would even have their own game controller by now.
4K TVs are used primarily for viewing content in 4K, right? So why are there so many different prices for 4K TVs? Different technology. Different capability. Different quality. As for Apple promoting gaming, it's pretty routine for them to have game companies do demos for iOS and ATV. Mario and Sky are two of the most recent "heavy hitter" types of presentations like that, and Apple is definitely paying to have those games be timed exclusives.
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All of our iPhone camera content will be in h265 moving forward. So using home sharing to play out your home videos in h265 would not only be obvious, but perfectly legally. The studios can’t hold back feature like that. I feel like this is a temporary issue and a small oversight.
Also, if you can still stream 4k in h264 it’s not really preventing pirates at all. Sure you’re file size could be a bit cumbersome depending on your data rate, but pirates still have to rip the file regardless of whether they transcode it to h264 or h265. I’m relatively sure VLC for the Apple TV will play h265 files if you really wanted to.
So, all someone who’s already inclined to be a tinkerer, has to do is find another streaming app. Most likely this is an iTunes limitation. As I recall last time I tested out h265 with iTunes it didn’t exactly like it, meaning it might not even show up in your library to begin with, but if it was in exactly the right specs it might play and stream. I also remember maybe having to use airplay from my Mac instead of using home sharing directly through the “computers” app on the atv. It’s been a little while. That said, this seems like a non issue and probably a temporary issue.
I would say the ATV is definitely cutting edge. These things aren’t that impressive. They stream video. Where Apple raised the bar is the apps and games. You don’t have anything even remotely as good as what Apple offers on any other device and that’s because of the engine. Hopefully yes Apple can update the ATV for future specs, but if it’s a transition two years in the making I’d personally be fine just buying another box.
Also, why are you worried about mpeg4 at 640p? Maybe I’m not understanding the problem. Yes an actual mpeg4 codec will only play at 640p but mp4 as a container encoded in h264 (which is how
almost all files labels mp4 are actually encoded) play just fine at all resolutions. mpeg4 codec is “dead” and has been for quite some time because it was a very lossy codec.
I also understand that the 10 is the number of bits describing the color table while Dolby Vision uses 12 bits for the color table. My LG OLED 65E7P supports Dolby Vision and of course HDR10.
The Dolby Vision also requires licensing from Dolby and some TV manufacturers like Samsung have refused to pay for the license.
They call the device the "Apple TV 4K with HDR."
They don't call it the Apple TV 720p, 1080p, and 4K with HDR10 and Dolby Vision."
Having a device that acts as an awesome streamer and a very capable gaming machine at the price point you mentioned would definitely be value for money. Even the most casual of gamers might also see value in this if it can get them into gaming a bit. Think somewhere between the casual market and the hardcore market.
While many others may disagree, I used to love Game Center and I wish they would bring back a new and improved version more inline with what Steam, PS4 and Xbox are offering. With all their OS's combined they could instantly create one of the biggest online gaming communities through Game Center. iOS and tvOS crossover for gaming (which already exists for the most part) and even, in those cases where it's actually feasible AND if as you said they brought out a dedicated Apple TV for gaming, tvOS and macOS crossover for gaming would also be epic. Like I read in an Ars Technica in-depth review of High Sierra however, right now the macOS App Store is being left out in the cold whilst all the other OS's can play more nicely with each other. It also doesn't help that games purchased on the Mac App Store can only be played in a separate sandbox, cut off from everyone else.
In addition, with most console providers aside from Sony's PS4 embracing platform cross play, gaming could be even better. It's a step forward that the new Minecraft update on iOS can now do this, but more effort could be made still.
tldr - Imagine a world where someone can play "insert awesome new game title here" on a mac (either steam or app store) against people playing on xBox's, Windows machines, iOS devices, Apple TV's and even PS4's (once Sony take their collective fingers out of their collective asses and actually allow it).
Rant over...
Yup. Theoretically it may take me as many as 14 steps to change my settings for one program, and back again. If I didn't have Siri to take me to Settings, I'd have to add many more steps.
1) Let's say I'm watching CBS streaming programming in 1080p 60Hz SDR, and I want to watch a movie on iTunes. I press the mic button and ask Siri to take me to Settings.
2) For the sake of brevity, let's say I only go to Settings to change my video format. So it's already on the last mode I selected.** From there, I swipe down to get to the "Other" options, to take me to the second page of format settings.
3) On the second page, I scroll down to 4K 24Hz HDR.
4) Then it asks me to confirm the setting (in the event my TV does not support it).
5) Then I tell Siri to take me to iTunes, where I watch my 4K HDR movie.
6) After the movie I want to go back to CBS, so I ask Siri to go back to Settings.
7) Hopefully Settings is still open to my last selection.** If so, I have to hit the Menu button to take me back to the main video format page.
8) Then I scroll up to the 1080p 60Hz SDR setting and select it.
9) I confirm that setting.
10) I ask Siri to take me to CBS.
**if for some reason the Settings have reverted to the main Settings menu, as sometimes happens for no reason I can correlate, I have to add the following steps:
1) Navigate to the audio/video settings menu and select.
2) Navigate to the Format menu, and select. Then proceed from step 2 above.
3 & 4) Repeat steps 1 & 2 if necessary to revert, and proceed from step 7 above.
There's a number of things Apple could do to speed this up and make it more convenient, short of automatic switching for a native source, as it should. For instance, there's no reason I can't just tell the ATV what resolutions my TV accepts after testing, so that they do not require confirmation after each selection. Moreover, I should just be able to tell Siri to: "switch picture format to 4K 25Hz HDR", and have it happen without even leaving the app I'm currently in, or worst case scenario, taking me there so I can visually confirm it. Even better would be to identify my common supported resolutions by category so I could just say "4K HDR movie", or "HD TV show", etc.
I really wish they’d added a low end box (A9/16GB?) at maybe $69 or $79 and make up any initial loss with iTunes revenue. Just a simple 4K upgrade to the 3rd gen, no aspirations to be anything other than a 4K upgrade (ie no gaming).
I guess maybe they figured they’re too late, with Roku (and Amazon and Google to a lesser extent) already too well established wrt market/mind share, to do what they did with the $329 iPad, the $159 AirPods and even the watch at $249: completely remove all available oxygen, leaving almost no room for competitors on price and subsequently, own the space.
It's an extremely consumer friendly decision to have a default, set resolution. It's not very tweaker-friendly.
Guess which market is bigger.
Meamwhile, any time i have to use somebody’s knockoff to take a picture for them i’m shocked by the lag and crappy images. If you expect apple to produce cheap stuff to compete with knockoffs you haven’t been paying attention...for 40 years.