Use R-Play to play 'Destiny 2' and other PlayStation 4 games with MFi controllers on iPad,...

Posted:
in General Discussion
Bungie's "Destiny 2" isn't coming to the Mac or the iPad, but an iOS title called R-Play will allow you to take advantage of Sony's Remote Play feature to play the game on your mobile device at home or away from your console. AppleInsider tries it out, after the weekly reset.




It's easy to miss Lei Jiang's R-Play. It's not advertised well, and Google searches don't turn up a lot about it.

But, AppleInsider staffers found it, and have been using it off and on since "Destiny 2" launched. We're happy to say that it is a solid implementation of Sony's Remote Play once intended for the Playstation Vita -- but has the same limitations that the Sony handheld has.

LAN Setup

Configuration is mostly done on the PlayStation 4 itself. Players need to discover their user name on the Sony account. Following that, the feature is enabled on the PlayStation 4 itself, by entering the Settings menu, selecting Remote Play Connection Settings, and turning the feature on if it isn't already.
Playing "Destiny 2" on your iPad at home or on the road is pretty nice.
After that, the player enters the user name in R-Play, plus the account passcode presented by the PlayStation 4 itself -- and can start playing!

The settings on the app default to 540p and 60 frames per second -- but as Destiny 2 is a 30 frames-per-second title, we turned it up to 720p and 30 frames per second without hiccup on our local area wireless network on a first generation 12.9-inch iPad Pro, a fifth generation iPad, and an iPhone 7 Plus.

The app allows for 1080p streaming from a PlayStation Pro, but as we spend our money on Apple hardware, we don't have one of those.


Head out on the highway

R-Play also allows for play across the internet. If you've got an automatic port-forwarding router, it will handle the details for you. Fear not, AirPort Extreme users! The documentation for the app includes an in-depth procedure on how to configure this on your device as well.

Part of the comprehensive documentation for R-Play
Part of the comprehensive documentation for R-Play


Fair warning -- the PlayStation streaming doesn't hand off well from Wi-Fi to LTE. Start playing after you're out of range of your local area network.

With a FiOS Gigabit connection serving the connection, and a three-bar signal, our co-pilot had acceptable performance at 540p and 30 frames per second while whipping down I-95 well south of D.C. at 60 miles per hour. But, the latency for both sending the controller signal to the PlayStation 4 at the house and returning the video display to the user is a little high, so we don't recommend "Destiny 2" activities like Iron Banner, Trials of the Nine, or the new raid that requires precise timing and execution.

Messing around in the "Destiny 2" world, or something casual yet explosive like "BroForce" though? Perfectly fine.

Data consumption can be rough too. If you've got modest caps on your LTE data plan, this may not be your best choice.

For want of L3 and R3

Breaking voice for a moment -- I can't adjust to on-screen analog game controllers. That out of the way, R-Play allows for MFi controller connections, like the SteelSeries Nimbus.




But, the DualShock 4 controller has more buttons than the MFi controller spec allows for -- specifically, the thumbstick clicks. By default, "Destiny 2" characters sprint with a click of the left thumbstick and the lack of a convenient run puts an additional damper on high-stress events.

"Chording" is allowed, with multiple button presses invoking a L3 or R3 click. For games like Destiny, this isn't ideal. This is a problem shared with the PlayStation Vita hardware, so it is not unique to Apple or R-Play.

There is no way to sync a DualShock controller with the iPad directly. There is a way to use it when close to your console with a convoluted procedure involving two PlayStation 4 accounts -- but we can't really recommend it.

Eyes up, Guardian

Sony has an official set of apps to use the feature on Mac and PC, but playing "Destiny 2" on your iPad at home or on the road is pretty nice.

All in all, we're pretty happy with R-Play. "Destiny 2" is less of a time-suck than the original was, and it's nice to be able to casually drop in on something while we're waiting for a kid to come out of school, or to shoot some Fallen or Red Legion when presented with a five-minute break.

R-Play requires iOS 8 or newer, and is compatible with all the hardware that can run it, including an original iPad mini. It takes 9.1MB of storage space, and is $11.99 -- a far cry less than a PlayStation Vita.

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 20
    Adding the thumbstick click capability to the MFi spec in the future (and the physical support for that in 3rd party MFi controllers) seems like a good idea.
  • Reply 2 of 20
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 3,111administrator
    airnerd said:
    TIL that articles titled "Tips" should instead be called "Sponsored Content".  
    Try again. Not sponsored. 

    Pro tip: if you're reading AppleInsider, and it's not explicitly labeled sponsored, then it isn't sponsored.

    I haven't ever written a sponsored piece, and I'm not going to start now.
    edited October 2017 cgWerks
  • Reply 3 of 20
    nhughesnhughes Posts: 743editor
    airnerd said:
    TIL that articles titled "Tips" should instead be called "Sponsored Content".  
    I'm deleting this comment, because suggesting that our content is paid when it is not is against our commenting guidelines. Quoting and leaving it up so the policy is known to others.

    One last note: AppleInsider does partner with advertisers, notably in our price guides. These partnerships are always clearly identified, and our editorial staff is never asked to skew coverage based on advertising. Anything not explicitly marked as advertising is news content chosen by our editors solely because they found it interesting -- any comments suggesting otherwise will be removed.

    Feel free to view the guidelines here:

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/184333/appleinsiders-updated-commenting-guidelines/p1
    edited October 2017
  • Reply 4 of 20
    nhughesnhughes Posts: 743editor
    Adding the thumbstick click capability to the MFi spec in the future (and the physical support for that in 3rd party MFi controllers) seems like a good idea.
    It's a strange omission, for sure, considering all modern game consoles have clickable thumbsticks. But then again it's not very surprising, considering Apple's ongoing ambivalence toward gaming.

    Such a shame, too. The A10X is a very powerful chip capable of running quality games if they were made available. Imagine if Apple threw a relatively small amount of money around to have a high-profile developer/publisher port a AAA franchise to tvOS/iOS. The A10X is more powerful than a Nintendo Switch, a system that will soon run Skyrim. Why can't we have Skyrim on our iPhones and Apple TVs?
  • Reply 5 of 20
    calicali Posts: 3,495member
    nhughes said:
    Adding the thumbstick click capability to the MFi spec in the future (and the physical support for that in 3rd party MFi controllers) seems like a good idea.
    It's a strange omission, for sure, considering all modern game consoles have clickable thumbsticks. But then again it's not very surprising, considering Apple's ongoing ambivalence toward gaming.

    Such a shame, too. The A10X is a very powerful chip capable of running quality games if they were made available. Imagine if Apple threw a relatively small amount of money around to have a high-profile developer/publisher port a AAA franchise to tvOS/iOS. The A10X is more powerful than a Nintendo Switch, a system that will soon run Skyrim. Why can't we have Skyrim on our iPhones and Apple TVs?
    The thumb click is annoying and very impractical. I believe this is why Apple omits it. Apple isn’t about nerdy over complicated hardware. 

    Is there any comparison videos or anything directly comparing Apple TV 4k to Switch or other consoles? I can’t find anything. 
  • Reply 6 of 20
    nhughes said:
    Imagine if Apple threw a relatively small amount of money around to have a high-profile developer/publisher port a AAA franchise to tvOS/iOS. The A10X is more powerful than a Nintendo Switch, a system that will soon run Skyrim. Why can't we have Skyrim on our iPhones and Apple TVs?
    Probably a lot of it is the pricing expectations for iOS/tvOS vs. sales volume. You'd have to guess that it's easier to make $$ from a $6.99 iOS port of an older/simpler console game like GTA: San Andreas than it is from a GTA game released within the last couple of generations. Also, part of the sales pitch for a game like that is improvements to the graphics vs. the original PS2 version. Can they do that for a PS3/360 game on the majority of iOS devices? Probably for A10/A11 devices, but how many of those are out in circulation right now? Might still be too soon to really bother with it for the big budget games where people are going to be very picky about visuals vs. the original. 

    IMO, I'd be happy in the short term with iOS/tvOS continuing to build on the indie game support and getting indie titles/developers that used to only show up on PC or consoles.
  • Reply 7 of 20
    nhughesnhughes Posts: 743editor
    cali said:
    nhughes said:
    Adding the thumbstick click capability to the MFi spec in the future (and the physical support for that in 3rd party MFi controllers) seems like a good idea.
    It's a strange omission, for sure, considering all modern game consoles have clickable thumbsticks. But then again it's not very surprising, considering Apple's ongoing ambivalence toward gaming.

    Such a shame, too. The A10X is a very powerful chip capable of running quality games if they were made available. Imagine if Apple threw a relatively small amount of money around to have a high-profile developer/publisher port a AAA franchise to tvOS/iOS. The A10X is more powerful than a Nintendo Switch, a system that will soon run Skyrim. Why can't we have Skyrim on our iPhones and Apple TVs?
    The thumb click is annoying and very impractical. I believe this is why Apple omits it. Apple isn’t about nerdy over complicated hardware. 

    Is there any comparison videos or anything directly comparing Apple TV 4k to Switch or other consoles? I can’t find anything. 
    The raw horsepower of the A10X is well beyond the Nvidia chip in the Switch, that has been established with benchmarks. Unfortunately the game selection on tvOS is so poor that it's not really worth comparing.

    A game like Breath of the Wild on Switch has an art style specifically designed to play to the strengths and downplay the weaknesses of the Switch hardware, and the result is gorgeous. It also probably cost Nintendo a boatload of money to make and they sell it at $60 a pop. If a developer were to put that kind of time and resources into a tvOS game, and they were somehow able to sell it on the App Store for $60, you could get some impressive results. But the market just isn't there at the moment.

    It will be interesting to see how thatgamecompany's tvOS title does, and how much they charge for it.
    cali
  • Reply 8 of 20
    boltsfan17boltsfan17 Posts: 1,918member
    nhughes said:
    cali said:
    nhughes said:
    Adding the thumbstick click capability to the MFi spec in the future (and the physical support for that in 3rd party MFi controllers) seems like a good idea.
    It's a strange omission, for sure, considering all modern game consoles have clickable thumbsticks. But then again it's not very surprising, considering Apple's ongoing ambivalence toward gaming.

    Such a shame, too. The A10X is a very powerful chip capable of running quality games if they were made available. Imagine if Apple threw a relatively small amount of money around to have a high-profile developer/publisher port a AAA franchise to tvOS/iOS. The A10X is more powerful than a Nintendo Switch, a system that will soon run Skyrim. Why can't we have Skyrim on our iPhones and Apple TVs?
    The thumb click is annoying and very impractical. I believe this is why Apple omits it. Apple isn’t about nerdy over complicated hardware. 

    Is there any comparison videos or anything directly comparing Apple TV 4k to Switch or other consoles? I can’t find anything. 
    The raw horsepower of the A10X is well beyond the Nvidia chip in the Switch, that has been established with benchmarks. Unfortunately the game selection on tvOS is so poor that it's not really worth comparing.

    A game like Breath of the Wild on Switch has an art style specifically designed to play to the strengths and downplay the weaknesses of the Switch hardware, and the result is gorgeous. It also probably cost Nintendo a boatload of money to make and they sell it at $60 a pop. If a developer were to put that kind of time and resources into a tvOS game, and they were somehow able to sell it on the App Store for $60, you could get some impressive results. But the market just isn't there at the moment.

    It will be interesting to see how thatgamecompany's tvOS title does, and how much they charge for it.
    If developers started selling games at $60 a pop, I can only imagine the people complaining about the price and saying the ATV isn't a console. If there was a great game on ATV with many hours of game play, I would have no problem paying $60. I believe Journey is $15 on consoles so I imagine Sky will cost around the same on the ATV. 
    nhughes
  • Reply 9 of 20
    calicali Posts: 3,495member
    nhughes said:
    cali said:
    nhughes said:
    Adding the thumbstick click capability to the MFi spec in the future (and the physical support for that in 3rd party MFi controllers) seems like a good idea.
    It's a strange omission, for sure, considering all modern game consoles have clickable thumbsticks. But then again it's not very surprising, considering Apple's ongoing ambivalence toward gaming.

    Such a shame, too. The A10X is a very powerful chip capable of running quality games if they were made available. Imagine if Apple threw a relatively small amount of money around to have a high-profile developer/publisher port a AAA franchise to tvOS/iOS. The A10X is more powerful than a Nintendo Switch, a system that will soon run Skyrim. Why can't we have Skyrim on our iPhones and Apple TVs?
    The thumb click is annoying and very impractical. I believe this is why Apple omits it. Apple isn’t about nerdy over complicated hardware. 

    Is there any comparison videos or anything directly comparing Apple TV 4k to Switch or other consoles? I can’t find anything. 
    The raw horsepower of the A10X is well beyond the Nvidia chip in the Switch, that has been established with benchmarks. Unfortunately the game selection on tvOS is so poor that it's not really worth comparing.

    A game like Breath of the Wild on Switch has an art style specifically designed to play to the strengths and downplay the weaknesses of the Switch hardware, and the result is gorgeous. It also probably cost Nintendo a boatload of money to make and they sell it at $60 a pop. If a developer were to put that kind of time and resources into a tvOS game, and they were somehow able to sell it on the App Store for $60, you could get some impressive results. But the market just isn't there at the moment.

    It will be interesting to see how thatgamecompany's tvOS title does, and how much they charge for it.
    If developers started selling games at $60 a pop, I can only imagine the people complaining about the price and saying the ATV isn't a console. If there was a great game on ATV with many hours of game play, I would have no problem paying $60. I believe Journey is $15 on consoles so I imagine Sky will cost around the same on the ATV. 
    Keep in mind $60 Digital games are overpriced themselves. $60 was the price it costed for development, physical copies, shipping to stores etc. Nintendo transferred the fees to Digital and people thought they were crazy but their games still sell.

    A tvOS game can have the same amount of resources and sell for $20-$30 and still make a huge profit.

    I do believe Apple should throw at least a billion into acquiring developers, IP rights and development costs for A10x games for Apple TV/iPad/iPhone.
    Having a few titles made exclusively for Apple TV would have jumped sales and this doesn’t change the MSRP because the capability is already in the price just not being utilized.

    There’s millions of people who would shell out $200 for box with exclusive titles and the graphics capability.

    A good A10x 4k HDR launch would have been:

    Mario Run TV
    Sky
    Real Racing 4(finally!)
    Angry Birds
    Infinity Blade IV(finally with MFi controller!)
    Galaxy on Fire
    New GTA
    Resident Evil
    New Apple and indie IPs
  • Reply 10 of 20
    cali said:
    nhughes said:
    cali said:
    nhughes said:
    Adding the thumbstick click capability to the MFi spec in the future (and the physical support for that in 3rd party MFi controllers) seems like a good idea.
    It's a strange omission, for sure, considering all modern game consoles have clickable thumbsticks. But then again it's not very surprising, considering Apple's ongoing ambivalence toward gaming.

    Such a shame, too. The A10X is a very powerful chip capable of running quality games if they were made available. Imagine if Apple threw a relatively small amount of money around to have a high-profile developer/publisher port a AAA franchise to tvOS/iOS. The A10X is more powerful than a Nintendo Switch, a system that will soon run Skyrim. Why can't we have Skyrim on our iPhones and Apple TVs?
    The thumb click is annoying and very impractical. I believe this is why Apple omits it. Apple isn’t about nerdy over complicated hardware. 

    Is there any comparison videos or anything directly comparing Apple TV 4k to Switch or other consoles? I can’t find anything. 
    The raw horsepower of the A10X is well beyond the Nvidia chip in the Switch, that has been established with benchmarks. Unfortunately the game selection on tvOS is so poor that it's not really worth comparing.

    A game like Breath of the Wild on Switch has an art style specifically designed to play to the strengths and downplay the weaknesses of the Switch hardware, and the result is gorgeous. It also probably cost Nintendo a boatload of money to make and they sell it at $60 a pop. If a developer were to put that kind of time and resources into a tvOS game, and they were somehow able to sell it on the App Store for $60, you could get some impressive results. But the market just isn't there at the moment.

    It will be interesting to see how thatgamecompany's tvOS title does, and how much they charge for it.
    If developers started selling games at $60 a pop, I can only imagine the people complaining about the price and saying the ATV isn't a console. If there was a great game on ATV with many hours of game play, I would have no problem paying $60. I believe Journey is $15 on consoles so I imagine Sky will cost around the same on the ATV. 
    Keep in mind $60 Digital games are overpriced themselves. $60 was the price it costed for development, physical copies, shipping to stores etc. Nintendo transferred the fees to Digital and people thought they were crazy but their games still sell.

    A tvOS game can have the same amount of resources and sell for $20-$30 and still make a huge profit.
    Unfortunately this is inaccurate. Games have been priced at $60 for a few console generations now and haven't budged, despite inflation and the like. And the budgets behind blockbuster titles continue to grow.

    Publishers and developers have been getting around this psychological price barrier with things like "season passes," DLC, preorder bonuses, etc. You see it with basically every AAA title that hits the market. Even Nintendo has succumbed to this, and sold a season pass for additional Breath of the Wild content.

    I'm not saying that a well-made game, created by a smaller development team, couldn't be a huge hit and a financial success on tvOS at a $20 price point. But I am saying that eliminating physical copies, shipping, etc., will not offset the huge amount of money it takes to create a top-tier console title.

    In other words, if Grand Theft Auto 6 or whatever miraculously comes to tvOS, don't expect it to cost $20.
    edited October 2017
  • Reply 11 of 20

    nhughes said:
    cali said:
    nhughes said:
    Adding the thumbstick click capability to the MFi spec in the future (and the physical support for that in 3rd party MFi controllers) seems like a good idea.
    It's a strange omission, for sure, considering all modern game consoles have clickable thumbsticks. But then again it's not very surprising, considering Apple's ongoing ambivalence toward gaming.

    Such a shame, too. The A10X is a very powerful chip capable of running quality games if they were made available. Imagine if Apple threw a relatively small amount of money around to have a high-profile developer/publisher port a AAA franchise to tvOS/iOS. The A10X is more powerful than a Nintendo Switch, a system that will soon run Skyrim. Why can't we have Skyrim on our iPhones and Apple TVs?
    The thumb click is annoying and very impractical. I believe this is why Apple omits it. Apple isn’t about nerdy over complicated hardware. 

    Is there any comparison videos or anything directly comparing Apple TV 4k to Switch or other consoles? I can’t find anything. 
    The raw horsepower of the A10X is well beyond the Nvidia chip in the Switch, that has been established with benchmarks. Unfortunately the game selection on tvOS is so poor that it's not really worth comparing.

    A game like Breath of the Wild on Switch has an art style specifically designed to play to the strengths and downplay the weaknesses of the Switch hardware, and the result is gorgeous. It also probably cost Nintendo a boatload of money to make and they sell it at $60 a pop. If a developer were to put that kind of time and resources into a tvOS game, and they were somehow able to sell it on the App Store for $60, you could get some impressive results. But the market just isn't there at the moment.

    It will be interesting to see how thatgamecompany's tvOS title does, and how much they charge for it.
    If developers started selling games at $60 a pop, I can only imagine the people complaining about the price and saying the ATV isn't a console. If there was a great game on ATV with many hours of game play, I would have no problem paying $60. I believe Journey is $15 on consoles so I imagine Sky will cost around the same on the ATV. 
    $15 sounds about right to me, too.

    I want to see iOS and tvOS app prices start going up, because this free or 99 cent cheapskate mentality is killing developers. Apple tried to push prices up on iPad a few years ago when iWork and GarageBand came over, but for the most part it was a futile effort. People have a weird mentality about apps and pricing, that they are "cheap" and don't deserve any money. Yet the same people shell out $20 to go to a movie theater with a crappy projection and sound that bleeds through the walls. I don't know how Apple or developers overcome this weird free app problem, but no one has found a way yet.

    I'm happy to pay $60 for 8-10 hours of quality gameplay. I realize not everyone sees that as a value, but at a price-per-hour it's still cheaper than going to a movie at a crappy theater.
  • Reply 12 of 20
    calicali Posts: 3,495member
    nhughes said:
    cali said:
    nhughes said:
    cali said:
    nhughes said:
    Adding the thumbstick click capability to the MFi spec in the future (and the physical support for that in 3rd party MFi controllers) seems like a good idea.
    It's a strange omission, for sure, considering all modern game consoles have clickable thumbsticks. But then again it's not very surprising, considering Apple's ongoing ambivalence toward gaming.

    Such a shame, too. The A10X is a very powerful chip capable of running quality games if they were made available. Imagine if Apple threw a relatively small amount of money around to have a high-profile developer/publisher port a AAA franchise to tvOS/iOS. The A10X is more powerful than a Nintendo Switch, a system that will soon run Skyrim. Why can't we have Skyrim on our iPhones and Apple TVs?
    The thumb click is annoying and very impractical. I believe this is why Apple omits it. Apple isn’t about nerdy over complicated hardware. 

    Is there any comparison videos or anything directly comparing Apple TV 4k to Switch or other consoles? I can’t find anything. 
    The raw horsepower of the A10X is well beyond the Nvidia chip in the Switch, that has been established with benchmarks. Unfortunately the game selection on tvOS is so poor that it's not really worth comparing.

    A game like Breath of the Wild on Switch has an art style specifically designed to play to the strengths and downplay the weaknesses of the Switch hardware, and the result is gorgeous. It also probably cost Nintendo a boatload of money to make and they sell it at $60 a pop. If a developer were to put that kind of time and resources into a tvOS game, and they were somehow able to sell it on the App Store for $60, you could get some impressive results. But the market just isn't there at the moment.

    It will be interesting to see how thatgamecompany's tvOS title does, and how much they charge for it.
    If developers started selling games at $60 a pop, I can only imagine the people complaining about the price and saying the ATV isn't a console. If there was a great game on ATV with many hours of game play, I would have no problem paying $60. I believe Journey is $15 on consoles so I imagine Sky will cost around the same on the ATV. 
    Keep in mind $60 Digital games are overpriced themselves. $60 was the price it costed for development, physical copies, shipping to stores etc. Nintendo transferred the fees to Digital and people thought they were crazy but their games still sell.

    A tvOS game can have the same amount of resources and sell for $20-$30 and still make a huge profit.
    Unfortunately this is inaccurate. Games have been priced at $60 for a few console generations now and haven't budged, despite inflation and the like. And the budgets behind blockbuster titles continue to grow.

    Publishers and developers have been getting around this psychological price barrier with things like "season passes," DLC, preorder bonuses, etc. You see it with basically every AAA title that hits the market. Even Nintendo has succumbed to this, and sold a season pass for additional Breath of the Wild content.

    I'm not saying that a well-made game, created by a smaller development team, couldn't be a huge hit and a financial success on tvOS at a $20 price point. But I am saying that eliminating physical copies, shipping, etc., will not offset the huge amount of money it takes to create a top-tier console title.

    In other words, if Grand Theft Auto 6 or whatever miraculously comes to tvOS, don't expect it to cost $20.
    nhughes said:
    cali said:
    nhughes said:
    cali said:
    nhughes said:
    Adding the thumbstick click capability to the MFi spec in the future (and the physical support for that in 3rd party MFi controllers) seems like a good idea.
    It's a strange omission, for sure, considering all modern game consoles have clickable thumbsticks. But then again it's not very surprising, considering Apple's ongoing ambivalence toward gaming.

    Such a shame, too. The A10X is a very powerful chip capable of running quality games if they were made available. Imagine if Apple threw a relatively small amount of money around to have a high-profile developer/publisher port a AAA franchise to tvOS/iOS. The A10X is more powerful than a Nintendo Switch, a system that will soon run Skyrim. Why can't we have Skyrim on our iPhones and Apple TVs?
    The thumb click is annoying and very impractical. I believe this is why Apple omits it. Apple isn’t about nerdy over complicated hardware. 

    Is there any comparison videos or anything directly comparing Apple TV 4k to Switch or other consoles? I can’t find anything. 
    The raw horsepower of the A10X is well beyond the Nvidia chip in the Switch, that has been established with benchmarks. Unfortunately the game selection on tvOS is so poor that it's not really worth comparing.

    A game like Breath of the Wild on Switch has an art style specifically designed to play to the strengths and downplay the weaknesses of the Switch hardware, and the result is gorgeous. It also probably cost Nintendo a boatload of money to make and they sell it at $60 a pop. If a developer were to put that kind of time and resources into a tvOS game, and they were somehow able to sell it on the App Store for $60, you could get some impressive results. But the market just isn't there at the moment.

    It will be interesting to see how thatgamecompany's tvOS title does, and how much they charge for it.
    If developers started selling games at $60 a pop, I can only imagine the people complaining about the price and saying the ATV isn't a console. If there was a great game on ATV with many hours of game play, I would have no problem paying $60. I believe Journey is $15 on consoles so I imagine Sky will cost around the same on the ATV. 
    Keep in mind $60 Digital games are overpriced themselves. $60 was the price it costed for development, physical copies, shipping to stores etc. Nintendo transferred the fees to Digital and people thought they were crazy but their games still sell.

    A tvOS game can have the same amount of resources and sell for $20-$30 and still make a huge profit.
    Unfortunately this is inaccurate. Games have been priced at $60 for a few console generations now and haven't budged, despite inflation and the like. And the budgets behind blockbuster titles continue to grow.

    Publishers and developers have been getting around this psychological price barrier with things like "season passes," DLC, preorder bonuses, etc. You see it with basically every AAA title that hits the market. Even Nintendo has succumbed to this, and sold a season pass for additional Breath of the Wild content.

    I'm not saying that a well-made game, created by a smaller development team, couldn't be a huge hit and a financial success on tvOS at a $20 price point. But I am saying that eliminating physical copies, shipping, etc., will not offset the huge amount of money it takes to create a top-tier console title.

    In other words, if Grand Theft Auto 6 or whatever miraculously comes to tvOS, don't expect it to cost $20.
    No it’s not inaccurate. $60 is the retail price which includes costs of packaging, physical discs/boxes and shipping etc. These don’t apply to digital. This is how iOS games can be given away for free, no way in hell would these developers be able to hand out millions of physical games for free. Digital is different.  This is how developers make a killing selling 99 cent games.
  • Reply 13 of 20
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 1,514member
    nhughes said:
    I'm deleting this comment, because suggesting that our content is paid when it is not is against our commenting guidelines. Quoting and leaving it up so the policy is known to others.
    I think the problem is that this is getting so prevalent in the MSM and elsewhere, people are not just assuming it. Sad. :(

    nhughes said:
    Adding the thumbstick click capability to the MFi spec in the future (and the physical support for that in 3rd party MFi controllers) seems like a good idea.
    It's a strange omission, for sure, considering all modern game consoles have clickable thumbsticks. But then again it's not very surprising, considering Apple's ongoing ambivalence toward gaming.
    What I don't get, is why Apple didn't just include compatibility for PS3/4 and Xbox controllers. It seems that would have given gaming on iDevices a huge boost... as many already have them, and they are better controllers for the most part. Could it be that the bean-counters thought MFi cert would be a nice revenue stream?

    nhughes said:
    Unfortunately this is inaccurate. Games have been priced at $60 for a few console generations now and haven't budged, despite inflation and the like. And the budgets behind blockbuster titles continue to grow.

    Publishers and developers have been getting around this psychological price barrier with things like "season passes," DLC, preorder bonuses, etc. You see it with basically every AAA title that hits the market.
    No doubt! A number of titles have now crossed the $100 mark... which IMO is going too far. I've stopped playing some of the titles I used to, as $60 was enough. I'm not going to spend $100+ to try and keep up.

    nhughes said:
    $15 sounds about right to me, too.
    If people could simply use a PS or Xbox controller, I'll bet they'd sell a ton. The problem is that for any controller-necessary game, the average person would have to realize there is even such a thing as MFi controllers out there. I think the average person is going to stick to touch-controls (hence greatly limiting games) until there is a big publicity push (and I think that needs more options than a few MFi controllers).
  • Reply 14 of 20
    cgWerks said:
    What I don't get, is why Apple didn't just include compatibility for PS3/4 and Xbox controllers. It seems that would have given gaming on iDevices a huge boost... as many already have them, and they are better controllers for the most part. Could it be that the bean-counters thought MFi cert would be a nice revenue stream?
    I think it's mainly for Apple to control the quality/experience for accessories used with their mobile products. Think about all the junk chargers and cables that are out there that can destroy your device in certain situations. I think the potential compatibility headaches for saying "hey, just use your console controller" aren't really worth it either. The console makers rarely allow controllers from their own previous gen hardware to be used for some of the same types of reasons. 
  • Reply 15 of 20
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 1,514member
    foregoneconclusion said:
    I think it's mainly for Apple to control the quality/experience for accessories used with their mobile products. Think about all the junk chargers and cables that are out there that can destroy your device in certain situations. I think the potential compatibility headaches for saying "hey, just use your console controller" aren't really worth it either. The console makers rarely allow controllers from their own previous gen hardware to be used for some of the same types of reasons. 
    I'd agree, except that PS4/Xbox controllers are better quality and more universally consistent than the MFi experience they've now created.

    Or, for a practical example.... I'd probably be playing all sorts of iOS based games if that were the case, vs my current impression that iOS isn't really for gaming, but *maybe* one day I'll invest in a MFi controller to better check it out.

    IMO, it's the typical chicken & egg problem Apple faced for decades around their platform being developed for. Which market would you rather develop a game for.... one where you have to depend on gamers who have to buy some odd controller they've never heard of, or one where they can easily just use a controller they probably already own, or one they know well?

    The reason iOS doesn't have many serious games, is because the market of people who are going to add some odd controller to their device is likely thought to be too small. The hardware is capable, it's a market-share and perception problem.
    edited October 2017
  • Reply 16 of 20
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 3,111administrator
    cali said:
    nhughes said:
    cali said:
    nhughes said:
    cali said:
    nhughes said:
    Adding the thumbstick click capability to the MFi spec in the future (and the physical support for that in 3rd party MFi controllers) seems like a good idea.
    It's a strange omission, for sure, considering all modern game consoles have clickable thumbsticks. But then again it's not very surprising, considering Apple's ongoing ambivalence toward gaming.

    Such a shame, too. The A10X is a very powerful chip capable of running quality games if they were made available. Imagine if Apple threw a relatively small amount of money around to have a high-profile developer/publisher port a AAA franchise to tvOS/iOS. The A10X is more powerful than a Nintendo Switch, a system that will soon run Skyrim. Why can't we have Skyrim on our iPhones and Apple TVs?
    The thumb click is annoying and very impractical. I believe this is why Apple omits it. Apple isn’t about nerdy over complicated hardware. 

    Is there any comparison videos or anything directly comparing Apple TV 4k to Switch or other consoles? I can’t find anything. 
    The raw horsepower of the A10X is well beyond the Nvidia chip in the Switch, that has been established with benchmarks. Unfortunately the game selection on tvOS is so poor that it's not really worth comparing.

    A game like Breath of the Wild on Switch has an art style specifically designed to play to the strengths and downplay the weaknesses of the Switch hardware, and the result is gorgeous. It also probably cost Nintendo a boatload of money to make and they sell it at $60 a pop. If a developer were to put that kind of time and resources into a tvOS game, and they were somehow able to sell it on the App Store for $60, you could get some impressive results. But the market just isn't there at the moment.

    It will be interesting to see how thatgamecompany's tvOS title does, and how much they charge for it.
    If developers started selling games at $60 a pop, I can only imagine the people complaining about the price and saying the ATV isn't a console. If there was a great game on ATV with many hours of game play, I would have no problem paying $60. I believe Journey is $15 on consoles so I imagine Sky will cost around the same on the ATV. 
    Keep in mind $60 Digital games are overpriced themselves. $60 was the price it costed for development, physical copies, shipping to stores etc. Nintendo transferred the fees to Digital and people thought they were crazy but their games still sell.

    A tvOS game can have the same amount of resources and sell for $20-$30 and still make a huge profit.
    Unfortunately this is inaccurate. Games have been priced at $60 for a few console generations now and haven't budged, despite inflation and the like. And the budgets behind blockbuster titles continue to grow.

    Publishers and developers have been getting around this psychological price barrier with things like "season passes," DLC, preorder bonuses, etc. You see it with basically every AAA title that hits the market. Even Nintendo has succumbed to this, and sold a season pass for additional Breath of the Wild content.

    I'm not saying that a well-made game, created by a smaller development team, couldn't be a huge hit and a financial success on tvOS at a $20 price point. But I am saying that eliminating physical copies, shipping, etc., will not offset the huge amount of money it takes to create a top-tier console title.

    In other words, if Grand Theft Auto 6 or whatever miraculously comes to tvOS, don't expect it to cost $20.
    nhughes said:
    cali said:
    nhughes said:
    cali said:
    nhughes said:
    Adding the thumbstick click capability to the MFi spec in the future (and the physical support for that in 3rd party MFi controllers) seems like a good idea.
    It's a strange omission, for sure, considering all modern game consoles have clickable thumbsticks. But then again it's not very surprising, considering Apple's ongoing ambivalence toward gaming.

    Such a shame, too. The A10X is a very powerful chip capable of running quality games if they were made available. Imagine if Apple threw a relatively small amount of money around to have a high-profile developer/publisher port a AAA franchise to tvOS/iOS. The A10X is more powerful than a Nintendo Switch, a system that will soon run Skyrim. Why can't we have Skyrim on our iPhones and Apple TVs?
    The thumb click is annoying and very impractical. I believe this is why Apple omits it. Apple isn’t about nerdy over complicated hardware. 

    Is there any comparison videos or anything directly comparing Apple TV 4k to Switch or other consoles? I can’t find anything. 
    The raw horsepower of the A10X is well beyond the Nvidia chip in the Switch, that has been established with benchmarks. Unfortunately the game selection on tvOS is so poor that it's not really worth comparing.

    A game like Breath of the Wild on Switch has an art style specifically designed to play to the strengths and downplay the weaknesses of the Switch hardware, and the result is gorgeous. It also probably cost Nintendo a boatload of money to make and they sell it at $60 a pop. If a developer were to put that kind of time and resources into a tvOS game, and they were somehow able to sell it on the App Store for $60, you could get some impressive results. But the market just isn't there at the moment.

    It will be interesting to see how thatgamecompany's tvOS title does, and how much they charge for it.
    If developers started selling games at $60 a pop, I can only imagine the people complaining about the price and saying the ATV isn't a console. If there was a great game on ATV with many hours of game play, I would have no problem paying $60. I believe Journey is $15 on consoles so I imagine Sky will cost around the same on the ATV. 
    Keep in mind $60 Digital games are overpriced themselves. $60 was the price it costed for development, physical copies, shipping to stores etc. Nintendo transferred the fees to Digital and people thought they were crazy but their games still sell.

    A tvOS game can have the same amount of resources and sell for $20-$30 and still make a huge profit.
    Unfortunately this is inaccurate. Games have been priced at $60 for a few console generations now and haven't budged, despite inflation and the like. And the budgets behind blockbuster titles continue to grow.

    Publishers and developers have been getting around this psychological price barrier with things like "season passes," DLC, preorder bonuses, etc. You see it with basically every AAA title that hits the market. Even Nintendo has succumbed to this, and sold a season pass for additional Breath of the Wild content.

    I'm not saying that a well-made game, created by a smaller development team, couldn't be a huge hit and a financial success on tvOS at a $20 price point. But I am saying that eliminating physical copies, shipping, etc., will not offset the huge amount of money it takes to create a top-tier console title.

    In other words, if Grand Theft Auto 6 or whatever miraculously comes to tvOS, don't expect it to cost $20.
    No it’s not inaccurate. $60 is the retail price which includes costs of packaging, physical discs/boxes and shipping etc. These don’t apply to digital. This is how iOS games can be given away for free, no way in hell would these developers be able to hand out millions of physical games for free. Digital is different.  This is how developers make a killing selling 99 cent games.
    They may not apply to digital, but the until the AAA releases don't make them roughly the same price, then that's where we are. Destiny 2 at launch was $60 for a disc or $60 for the digital download.
  • Reply 17 of 20
    nhughesnhughes Posts: 743editor
    cali said:
    nhughes said:
    cali said:
    nhughes said:
    cali said:
    nhughes said:
    Adding the thumbstick click capability to the MFi spec in the future (and the physical support for that in 3rd party MFi controllers) seems like a good idea.
    It's a strange omission, for sure, considering all modern game consoles have clickable thumbsticks. But then again it's not very surprising, considering Apple's ongoing ambivalence toward gaming.

    Such a shame, too. The A10X is a very powerful chip capable of running quality games if they were made available. Imagine if Apple threw a relatively small amount of money around to have a high-profile developer/publisher port a AAA franchise to tvOS/iOS. The A10X is more powerful than a Nintendo Switch, a system that will soon run Skyrim. Why can't we have Skyrim on our iPhones and Apple TVs?
    The thumb click is annoying and very impractical. I believe this is why Apple omits it. Apple isn’t about nerdy over complicated hardware. 

    Is there any comparison videos or anything directly comparing Apple TV 4k to Switch or other consoles? I can’t find anything. 
    The raw horsepower of the A10X is well beyond the Nvidia chip in the Switch, that has been established with benchmarks. Unfortunately the game selection on tvOS is so poor that it's not really worth comparing.

    A game like Breath of the Wild on Switch has an art style specifically designed to play to the strengths and downplay the weaknesses of the Switch hardware, and the result is gorgeous. It also probably cost Nintendo a boatload of money to make and they sell it at $60 a pop. If a developer were to put that kind of time and resources into a tvOS game, and they were somehow able to sell it on the App Store for $60, you could get some impressive results. But the market just isn't there at the moment.

    It will be interesting to see how thatgamecompany's tvOS title does, and how much they charge for it.
    If developers started selling games at $60 a pop, I can only imagine the people complaining about the price and saying the ATV isn't a console. If there was a great game on ATV with many hours of game play, I would have no problem paying $60. I believe Journey is $15 on consoles so I imagine Sky will cost around the same on the ATV. 
    Keep in mind $60 Digital games are overpriced themselves. $60 was the price it costed for development, physical copies, shipping to stores etc. Nintendo transferred the fees to Digital and people thought they were crazy but their games still sell.

    A tvOS game can have the same amount of resources and sell for $20-$30 and still make a huge profit.
    Unfortunately this is inaccurate. Games have been priced at $60 for a few console generations now and haven't budged, despite inflation and the like. And the budgets behind blockbuster titles continue to grow.

    Publishers and developers have been getting around this psychological price barrier with things like "season passes," DLC, preorder bonuses, etc. You see it with basically every AAA title that hits the market. Even Nintendo has succumbed to this, and sold a season pass for additional Breath of the Wild content.

    I'm not saying that a well-made game, created by a smaller development team, couldn't be a huge hit and a financial success on tvOS at a $20 price point. But I am saying that eliminating physical copies, shipping, etc., will not offset the huge amount of money it takes to create a top-tier console title.

    In other words, if Grand Theft Auto 6 or whatever miraculously comes to tvOS, don't expect it to cost $20.
    nhughes said:
    cali said:
    nhughes said:
    cali said:
    nhughes said:
    Adding the thumbstick click capability to the MFi spec in the future (and the physical support for that in 3rd party MFi controllers) seems like a good idea.
    It's a strange omission, for sure, considering all modern game consoles have clickable thumbsticks. But then again it's not very surprising, considering Apple's ongoing ambivalence toward gaming.

    Such a shame, too. The A10X is a very powerful chip capable of running quality games if they were made available. Imagine if Apple threw a relatively small amount of money around to have a high-profile developer/publisher port a AAA franchise to tvOS/iOS. The A10X is more powerful than a Nintendo Switch, a system that will soon run Skyrim. Why can't we have Skyrim on our iPhones and Apple TVs?
    The thumb click is annoying and very impractical. I believe this is why Apple omits it. Apple isn’t about nerdy over complicated hardware. 

    Is there any comparison videos or anything directly comparing Apple TV 4k to Switch or other consoles? I can’t find anything. 
    The raw horsepower of the A10X is well beyond the Nvidia chip in the Switch, that has been established with benchmarks. Unfortunately the game selection on tvOS is so poor that it's not really worth comparing.

    A game like Breath of the Wild on Switch has an art style specifically designed to play to the strengths and downplay the weaknesses of the Switch hardware, and the result is gorgeous. It also probably cost Nintendo a boatload of money to make and they sell it at $60 a pop. If a developer were to put that kind of time and resources into a tvOS game, and they were somehow able to sell it on the App Store for $60, you could get some impressive results. But the market just isn't there at the moment.

    It will be interesting to see how thatgamecompany's tvOS title does, and how much they charge for it.
    If developers started selling games at $60 a pop, I can only imagine the people complaining about the price and saying the ATV isn't a console. If there was a great game on ATV with many hours of game play, I would have no problem paying $60. I believe Journey is $15 on consoles so I imagine Sky will cost around the same on the ATV. 
    Keep in mind $60 Digital games are overpriced themselves. $60 was the price it costed for development, physical copies, shipping to stores etc. Nintendo transferred the fees to Digital and people thought they were crazy but their games still sell.

    A tvOS game can have the same amount of resources and sell for $20-$30 and still make a huge profit.
    Unfortunately this is inaccurate. Games have been priced at $60 for a few console generations now and haven't budged, despite inflation and the like. And the budgets behind blockbuster titles continue to grow.

    Publishers and developers have been getting around this psychological price barrier with things like "season passes," DLC, preorder bonuses, etc. You see it with basically every AAA title that hits the market. Even Nintendo has succumbed to this, and sold a season pass for additional Breath of the Wild content.

    I'm not saying that a well-made game, created by a smaller development team, couldn't be a huge hit and a financial success on tvOS at a $20 price point. But I am saying that eliminating physical copies, shipping, etc., will not offset the huge amount of money it takes to create a top-tier console title.

    In other words, if Grand Theft Auto 6 or whatever miraculously comes to tvOS, don't expect it to cost $20.
    No it’s not inaccurate. $60 is the retail price which includes costs of packaging, physical discs/boxes and shipping etc. These don’t apply to digital. This is how iOS games can be given away for free, no way in hell would these developers be able to hand out millions of physical games for free. Digital is different.  This is how developers make a killing selling 99 cent games.
    We’re talking about two different things. AAA console titles sell for the same digital as retail. 99 cent iPhone games are not AAA console titles. They don’t cost as much to develop, nor do they take as long, or require as much personnel. A game like Breath of the Wild or Destiny 2 has a team of hundreds working on it and it takes years to ship. The $60 price point isn’t enough for publishers to turn a profit on that investment, which is why you see DLC, expansions, micro transactions, special editions, game of the year editions, etc. Publishers are trying to find ways to get creative and make money while not officially exceeding the $60 price point.

    Really, though, the thing that drives the point home is the cost of PC games. Destiny 2 will get a digital release for Windows via Blizzard. Pricing: $60 for standard digital, $90 for the game plus expansion pass, and $100 for digital deluxe edition. So much for digital reducing prices. 
  • Reply 18 of 20
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 1,514member
    nhughes said:
    We’re talking about two different things. AAA console titles sell for the same digital as retail. 99 cent iPhone games are not AAA console titles. They don’t cost as much to develop, nor do they take as long, or require as much personnel. A game like Breath of the Wild or Destiny 2 has a team of hundreds working on it and it takes years to ship. The $60 price point isn’t enough for publishers to turn a profit on that investment, which is why you see DLC, expansions, micro transactions, special editions, game of the year editions, etc. Publishers are trying to find ways to get creative and make money while not officially exceeding the $60 price point.

    Really, though, the thing that drives the point home is the cost of PC games. Destiny 2 will get a digital release for Windows via Blizzard. Pricing: $60 for standard digital, $90 for the game plus expansion pass, and $100 for digital deluxe edition. So much for digital reducing prices. 
    Though, I wonder if iOS did have decent controller support and developers started producing more AAA-like titles for iOS, if they couldn't lower the price based on quantity.
  • Reply 19 of 20
    nhughesnhughes Posts: 743editor
    cgWerks said:
    nhughes said:
    We’re talking about two different things. AAA console titles sell for the same digital as retail. 99 cent iPhone games are not AAA console titles. They don’t cost as much to develop, nor do they take as long, or require as much personnel. A game like Breath of the Wild or Destiny 2 has a team of hundreds working on it and it takes years to ship. The $60 price point isn’t enough for publishers to turn a profit on that investment, which is why you see DLC, expansions, micro transactions, special editions, game of the year editions, etc. Publishers are trying to find ways to get creative and make money while not officially exceeding the $60 price point.

    Really, though, the thing that drives the point home is the cost of PC games. Destiny 2 will get a digital release for Windows via Blizzard. Pricing: $60 for standard digital, $90 for the game plus expansion pass, and $100 for digital deluxe edition. So much for digital reducing prices. 
    Though, I wonder if iOS did have decent controller support and developers started producing more AAA-like titles for iOS, if they couldn't lower the price based on quantity.
    The PlayStation 2, the most successful console in history, sold 155 million units in its entire lifetime. The Nintendo Wii sold just over 100 million. Apple will sell 75+ million iPhones in this quarter alone. They’ll sell another 12+ million iPads too. And throw in a million Apple TVs for good measure. In one three month span. 

    Apple’s reach is so much wider, but it also explains why the most popular titles are causal and cheap. Consider that the most popular title for the Wii, a console that had casual crossover appeal, was Wii Sports — a game that came packaged free with the system itself. 

    Could traditional games find success on iOS and tvOS if developers gave it an honest shot? Probably. The audience is there. But it’s a chicken and egg problem. What developer wants to sink a few hundred million dollars into developing a AAA title for iOS only to have it be a total bust?

    If I were Apple, I would pay a few developers to port blockbuster IPs to iOS and tvOS. Since we are talking ports, the risk for the developers and publishers would be minimal — they can still sell on Xbox and PlayStation. And if Apple subsidizes the port, the financial risk is reduced even further. 

    Developers routinely scale down their games to run on “lesser” systems. Call of Duty games came to the Wii. Franchises like FIFA are on Switch. Why can’t we have Destiny 2 on tvOS? Or at least FIFA 18. 
    edited October 2017
  • Reply 20 of 20
    The big console publishers want to drive people to buy the $60 console versions of games for their TV. That's why you don't even see the very popular mobile versions of games like Madden and NBA 2K showing up on tvOS. Those games aren't even close to the features/modes of the consoles and they're still not interested in doing a tvOS version.

    So I think the best case scenario for AAA console games is previous generation ports, and typically they don't bother with those unless they can claim the graphics are improved vs. the original. That's one of the primary sells for previous generation games that get re-released on a newer platform. They know a significant chunk of the potential buyers are people that purchased the older version and need a new incentive to "buy it again". So the question is: how many iOS/tvOS devices are capable of producing BETTER graphics than the originals for ports of PS3 or 360 AAA games? And does that represent a large enough market to make it a relatively safe bet financially? 
    edited October 2017
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