EU presses Apple for details on latest tax arrangements in wake of Paradise Papers

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  • Reply 61 of 82
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,313member
    bb-15 said:
    abriden said:
    bb-15 said:
    abriden said:
    These so-called tax avoidance schemes are NOT necessarily legal…
    Tax avoidance is legal. Tax evasion is not.

    I know the difference, which is why I say 'so-called' — many schemes have claimed to be legal tax avoidance, but the release of the Paradise Papers demonstrates that at least some constitute illegal tax evasion. It remains to be seen which category Apple's arrangements fall when they are properly scrutinised.
    I can't find evidence that Apple did something illegal from the information about the Paradise Papers. 

    "Paradise Papers show massive but not illegal tax avoidance by Apple... 

    Though Apple has done nothing illegal,
    "
    http://www.domain-b.com/companies/companies_a/Apple/20171107_illegal_tax.html

    * This has been a problem with several of your arguments.
    - Obviously, you have an emotional dislike of what Apple is doing.
    - But your gut feelings do not = facts.
    - And the facts that I can find so far are, that with this tax matter, Apple has not done anything illegal.   
    I don't have the affiliation or the resources to scrutinise the Paradise Papers to the level required to be conclusive, and I very much doubt that you do either. So this is a conversation not a conclusion. Time will tell. Going back to my original post though, the practices being discussed are immoral.
    You only associate Apple with these (according to you) "immoral" practices.
    Let's say that tax laws need to be reformed. Calling out Apple alone as being "immoral" about taxes is not going to bring about fundamental change.
    Why? Because the issue of companies keeping money overseas is not just an Apple issue. It is a widespread corporation / tax law issue.
    - Here is a New York Times article which takes imo the proper broader view rather than going on an Apple hate fest.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/world/apple-taxes-jersey.html

    * After all, if a person doesn't use Apple products for any personal computing, they will use tech from companies which also keep billions overseas including; 
    - Microsoft $146 billion, Google $78 billion, IBM $71 billion, Intel $46 billion, HP Enterprise $41 billion and plain HP another $41 billion.
    (From the New York Times article.) Put that together and it is a lot more than what Apple is holding. 
    * People who only focus their anger on Apple (about widespread issues) in the end don't change the system.      
    - But to look at the bigger picture requires not having double standards and that's hard imo for those who seem to only be motivated by anti-Apple outrage. 
    No one is going on an anti Apple hate fest. This is AppleInsider, and an Apple specific thread on the Paradise Papers. Logically, in the context of this thread, there is no point talking about the other companies involved.

    I'm sure there are comments in U2 forums talking about Bono's involvement in this leak that don't mention Apple.

    That said, anyone talking about the Paradise Papers in general will mention a spread of companies and not focus solely on Bono or Apple.
  • Reply 62 of 82
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,458member
    avon b7 said:
    bb-15 said:
    abriden said:
    bb-15 said:
    abriden said:
    These so-called tax avoidance schemes are NOT necessarily legal…
    Tax avoidance is legal. Tax evasion is not.

    I know the difference, which is why I say 'so-called' — many schemes have claimed to be legal tax avoidance, but the release of the Paradise Papers demonstrates that at least some constitute illegal tax evasion. It remains to be seen which category Apple's arrangements fall when they are properly scrutinised.
    I can't find evidence that Apple did something illegal from the information about the Paradise Papers. 

    "Paradise Papers show massive but not illegal tax avoidance by Apple... 

    Though Apple has done nothing illegal,
    "
    http://www.domain-b.com/companies/companies_a/Apple/20171107_illegal_tax.html

    * This has been a problem with several of your arguments.
    - Obviously, you have an emotional dislike of what Apple is doing.
    - But your gut feelings do not = facts.
    - And the facts that I can find so far are, that with this tax matter, Apple has not done anything illegal.   
    I don't have the affiliation or the resources to scrutinise the Paradise Papers to the level required to be conclusive, and I very much doubt that you do either. So this is a conversation not a conclusion. Time will tell. Going back to my original post though, the practices being discussed are immoral.
    You only associate Apple with these (according to you) "immoral" practices.
    Let's say that tax laws need to be reformed. Calling out Apple alone as being "immoral" about taxes is not going to bring about fundamental change.
    Why? Because the issue of companies keeping money overseas is not just an Apple issue. It is a widespread corporation / tax law issue.
    - Here is a New York Times article which takes imo the proper broader view rather than going on an Apple hate fest.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/world/apple-taxes-jersey.html

    * After all, if a person doesn't use Apple products for any personal computing, they will use tech from companies which also keep billions overseas including; 
    - Microsoft $146 billion, Google $78 billion, IBM $71 billion, Intel $46 billion, HP Enterprise $41 billion and plain HP another $41 billion.
    (From the New York Times article.) Put that together and it is a lot more than what Apple is holding. 
    * People who only focus their anger on Apple (about widespread issues) in the end don't change the system.      
    - But to look at the bigger picture requires not having double standards and that's hard imo for those who seem to only be motivated by anti-Apple outrage. 
    No one is going on an anti Apple hate fest. This is AppleInsider, and an Apple specific thread on the Paradise Papers. Logically, in the context of this thread, there is no point talking about the other companies involved.

    I'm sure there are comments in U2 forums talking about Bono's involvement in this leak that don't mention Apple.

    That said, anyone talking about the Paradise Papers in general will mention a spread of companies and not focus solely on Bono or Apple.
    http://fortune.com/2017/10/31/trump-tax-reform-apple-multinational-companies/

    Pretty good explanation of how things are done in the U.S., and why Apple's taxes are complicated, not devious, which is what many of you Europeans, including yourself, are pushing.
  • Reply 63 of 82
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 2,970moderator
    gatorguy said:
    cbolger said:
    Wait a minute! If Apple won’t pay 12% through Ireland why would they pay 12% through the United States?

    or any other company for that matter....
    Because Apple argues that the value upon which it ultimately would owe that tax was created in the US, in the form of the design and engineering of its hardware products and in the software.  And this is proper according to tax law.  And so Apple is okay paying tax to the United States.  But if it paid 12% to another country - a country Apple chose merely as an offshore locale to consolidate its foreign revenues - then the US, by virtue of the fact it gives a dollar-for-dollar break in foreign-paid taxes, would therefore get no tax income from Apple.  
    It's not nearly that simple Radar. Apple can rightfully claim of course that the value of the Apple products was created in the US in the form of design and engineering of the software just as you mentioned, but it's a misdirection play. Apple has muddied those waters by transferring the valuable licensing of that design and software created in the US to their Irish subsidiary who had no hand in it, who then uses the fees charged for using it move the majority of profits from the sale of an Apple product in dozens of foreign countries to an entity shielded from tax obligations. That's been found true over and over in countries ranging from Japan to Italy, Australia to Spain, where Apple sells billions in products but claims the value of them and thus the source of the profits came from Irish property. Essentially non-taxable Irish and/or Jersey IP holding companies.

    So Apple really has no valid argument about the value being created in the US and therefor that's where the taxes should be paid when they transfer that value to a foreign country and use creative accounting and obscure law to avoid those taxes there and worldwide. Right?
    Not right.  The fact is, the vast majority of the value IS created in the US and if Apple needs to setup legal structures outside the US to ensure that other countries that had little or no participation in adding that value can’t grab a chunk of tax receipts, then doesn’t that suggest where the immorality lies?  With countries that are trying to take a bite where they have not added value.  Foreign countries get their bit of the pie from consumption taxes (sales tax) and import duties.  That’s as it should be.  Do you think Apple is fighting the EU’s decision to retroactively change the rules and demand back taxes using their competition committee because Apple is a tax dodger.  That doesn’t sound like the Tim Cook’s Apple I read about every day.  Sounds like overreach.  
    edited November 2017 tmay
  • Reply 64 of 82
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 2,970moderator
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    fred1 said:
    So much EU bashing, and why?  Do you live in the EU? (Have you ever even been to an EU country?). Did you say that the US shouldn’t exist when Congress was supposedly investigating where Aplle stashes its profits?

    These EU officials are doing their job: enforcing the tax laws. Why does this seem so strange to you?
    Yes. You are right. I commented in another thread on exactly what the commissioner has said now someone tried to claim I was using 'weasel' words. LOL.

    All of this is being investigated as we speak. The amount of documents in this leak is vast, so vast that the work will take time to be carried out. We have already seen some prickly documents.

    While all the information is verified and cross referenced, the commissioners and ministers of member states will formerly require the individuals and companies to 'fill in any gaps' on previous declarations in the cases of open investigations. 

    We will see, much further down the line, just how legal the actions of those involved is, but in the case of Apple they have taken a battering in public opinion through the revelations in the press. That is precisely why Apple made a statement in the first place.

    Some people seem to be having trouble accepting this, others just hate the EU.

    I would be worried if the EU didn't do anything. You can be sure the US is also perusing the documents too.

    Trying to make out this hasn't been a PR nightmare is frankly difficult to understand.

    Actually I can guess why people in this forum think that this is NOT a PR nightmare, but you think otherwise. I got time to read only Apple's statement on this issue and I must add - it looked fairly reasonable to me (with my limited knowledge on this topic of taxation of international companies like Apple). I have NOT gone through even a SINGLE article yet on Paradise papers, what information was leaked into public domain etc. Since I have not gone through the actual story but has read only Apple's version, I have not commented on this thread yet. I can easily imagine others in this forum NOT having gone through even a single article on Paradise papers but only Apple's statement. And still comment on the topic based on their prior wealth of knowledge on taxation (which I don't have). It could be possible that only you and very few others have gone through the story from both sides while commenting.
    That is definitely feasible. However, the reality is there for all to see.

    If Apple has made a formal statement mere hours after this went public it should be clear that this is a major issue.

    The Paradise Papers have been handed over to over 100 respected news outlets for study and documentary style reports have already been aired. 

    It doesn't even matter if Apple is innocent of course. The fact that documents like the questionnaire, however normal they may be among multinationals, have reached the public domain is of paramount concern to Apple PR. The risk of some damaging mails being found among the data is also there.

    I have yet to see a news piece of this subject that doesn't mention Apple and I am sure that that is a situation Apple is very worried about in its PR department which must be a hive of activity right now.

    You only have to dip into the comments sections of press outlets to gauge opinion.


    You seem to think Apple’s early response implies Apple is ‘worried’ about something.  It’s more reasonable to conclude that Apple made an early response simply due to the fact the Paradise Papers are being looked at by so many news outlets; a timely response provides Apple with boilerplate it can point to each time some reporter comes calling, rather than tediously responding individually to each in succession.
    See also Occam’s Razor.
    tmay
  • Reply 65 of 82
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 2,970moderator
    abriden said:

    bb-15 said:
    abriden said:
    To those who have so far defended Apple's tax avoidance and blame the laws rather than those abusing them, it is by no means certain that Apple have operated legally at all — by all accounts the arrangement with the Irish government was illegal and the subject of an EU investigation. Secrecy is the reason these tax avoidance schemes have thus far been allowed to happen unchallenged, but hopefully the so-called Paradise Papers will prompt reforms (though I won't hold my breath).

    There is a reason why private and public companies have to publish their accounts for transparency — hiding the money in countries with greater secrecy does not make it legal.
    You are misinformed. 
    1. The tax situation in Ireland was not secret. It is based on the double Irish arrangement which has been in effect since the late 1980s.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement

    2. The tax arrangement between Ireland and Apple was legal in Ireland. Why? Because Ireland is a sovereign nation which can pass its own laws which are enforced by its government.
    - And again this arrangement has been known for decades.

    3. The EU does not strip the Irish government of all its power. Ireland is appealing the actions of the EU in this situation.
    Ireland believes that the tax situation with Apple is appropriate.

    4. You imply that Apple does nothing to contribute to the funding of services in Ireland. That is false.
    - Apple employs 4,000 workers in Cork (6,000 total in the country). The income of those workers helps the Irish economy which in turn helps to fund services. 
    - Apple's profits in Ireland are taxed at the rate of 12.5% in an agreement with the Irish government. Besides being legal, 12.5% is not 0%.
    The tax money from Apple in Ireland helps the Irish economy and therefore services in Ireland.
    - Apple pays lots of taxes around the world. Probably more taxes than any other company. All of that money helps to fund services.  

    5. Finally, the money that Apple is holding outside of the US has to do with US taxes. Apple wants a lower US tax rate before paying US taxes on that money. This money from the view of the US and Apple, is not about taxes that should go to the EU. 

    Apple uses shell companies that are businesses in name only, with no more than a business address — as arranged by Appleby, in common with its other clients. Apple has tangible operations all over the world, that's not in dispute. I'm disputing the bouncing of profits between shell companies and the offsetting of these profits against unsubstantiated 'fees' which are not open to scrutiny — I don't believe that is honest or in the spirit of the law, a theme that Tim Cook chose to draw particular attention to.
    So Apple should leave it China profits in China?  It’s France profits in France, etc?  It’s more efficient to consolidate all foreign-earned profits and that is what is being done with a shell company.  Multinationals like Apple simply seek a location for such a shell company that won’t try to tax profits that have already been taxed in the countries where they were earned and which are not subject to US tax until repatriated.  There doesn’t have to be anything shady involved when you hear the term ‘shell company.’
  • Reply 66 of 82
    bshankbshank Posts: 154member
    abriden said:
    abriden said:
    Amazing, not a single comment that actually condemns Apple for its morally reprehensible approach to taxation. The legalities may be contentious, but damn it, the ethics that Apple and other global companies, super-rich individuals and organised crime (what great bedfellows) use are beneath contempt.

    Bshank ...suggesting that Apple should cut and run is missing the point. Firstly, Apple are not paying enough tax so they do not have the moral high-ground here, even over the rightly despised EU; Secondly, you clearly have no idea of what the EU market is worth to Apple. 

    For those who defend the likes of Apple, think how many more teachers, hospital beds, police and firemen, carers, etc your country could afford if these organisations paid their way properly and honestly.
    Amazing. Someone who registered and made their first post just to assert that Apple is “morally reprehensible” because they are organizing their finances to reduce the taxes they are obliged to pay.  If you’re in the US, I hope you are morally consistent and don’t put any money in tax-favored investments or take advantage of tax deductions. 
    I fail to see how the number of posts I've made is relevant. What is morally wrong is that these companies are failing to pay tax on massive profits by using secret mechanisms to obscure profits and offset them against unspecified fees that are completely unsubstantiated.
    Secret mechanisms? Just because you’re not a tax lawyer and do not know the laws you think they’re secret?
    edited November 2017
  • Reply 67 of 82
    bshankbshank Posts: 154member
    Blunt said:
    abriden said:
    Amazing, not a single comment that actually condemns Apple for its morally reprehensible approach to taxation. The legalities may be contentious, but damn it, the ethics that Apple and other global companies, super-rich individuals and organised crime (what great bedfellows) use are beneath contempt.

    Bshank ...suggesting that Apple should cut and run is missing the point. Firstly, Apple are not paying enough tax so they do not have the moral high-ground here, even over the rightly despised EU; Secondly, you clearly have no idea of what the EU market is worth to Apple. 

    For those who defend the likes of Apple, think how many more teachers, hospital beds, police and firemen, carers, etc your country could afford if these organisations paid their way properly and honestly.

    I love Apple but this is a bloody shame. You are completely right about this.
    Morals are personal. Until the law changes we’ve chosen ours and you don’t like them. So what? By saying cut and run I was being ironic, but why buy the products if you don’t like the fact Apple has learned to dot it’s i’s and cross it’s t’. international tax law? Vote with your pocket book. Don’t sit here and have constant battles about personal morals as if through social media you’re going to force people to adopt your morals. You don’t like the power of the corporation? Fine. State that as a reasonable debate, not some us or them argument about your personal morality.
    edited November 2017
  • Reply 68 of 82
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,313member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    fred1 said:
    So much EU bashing, and why?  Do you live in the EU? (Have you ever even been to an EU country?). Did you say that the US shouldn’t exist when Congress was supposedly investigating where Aplle stashes its profits?

    These EU officials are doing their job: enforcing the tax laws. Why does this seem so strange to you?
    Yes. You are right. I commented in another thread on exactly what the commissioner has said now someone tried to claim I was using 'weasel' words. LOL.

    All of this is being investigated as we speak. The amount of documents in this leak is vast, so vast that the work will take time to be carried out. We have already seen some prickly documents.

    While all the information is verified and cross referenced, the commissioners and ministers of member states will formerly require the individuals and companies to 'fill in any gaps' on previous declarations in the cases of open investigations. 

    We will see, much further down the line, just how legal the actions of those involved is, but in the case of Apple they have taken a battering in public opinion through the revelations in the press. That is precisely why Apple made a statement in the first place.

    Some people seem to be having trouble accepting this, others just hate the EU.

    I would be worried if the EU didn't do anything. You can be sure the US is also perusing the documents too.

    Trying to make out this hasn't been a PR nightmare is frankly difficult to understand.

    Actually I can guess why people in this forum think that this is NOT a PR nightmare, but you think otherwise. I got time to read only Apple's statement on this issue and I must add - it looked fairly reasonable to me (with my limited knowledge on this topic of taxation of international companies like Apple). I have NOT gone through even a SINGLE article yet on Paradise papers, what information was leaked into public domain etc. Since I have not gone through the actual story but has read only Apple's version, I have not commented on this thread yet. I can easily imagine others in this forum NOT having gone through even a single article on Paradise papers but only Apple's statement. And still comment on the topic based on their prior wealth of knowledge on taxation (which I don't have). It could be possible that only you and very few others have gone through the story from both sides while commenting.
    That is definitely feasible. However, the reality is there for all to see.

    If Apple has made a formal statement mere hours after this went public it should be clear that this is a major issue.

    The Paradise Papers have been handed over to over 100 respected news outlets for study and documentary style reports have already been aired. 

    It doesn't even matter if Apple is innocent of course. The fact that documents like the questionnaire, however normal they may be among multinationals, have reached the public domain is of paramount concern to Apple PR. The risk of some damaging mails being found among the data is also there.

    I have yet to see a news piece of this subject that doesn't mention Apple and I am sure that that is a situation Apple is very worried about in its PR department which must be a hive of activity right now.

    You only have to dip into the comments sections of press outlets to gauge opinion.


    You seem to think Apple’s early response implies Apple is ‘worried’ about something.  It’s more reasonable to conclude that Apple made an early response simply due to the fact the Paradise Papers are being looked at by so many news outlets; a timely response provides Apple with boilerplate it can point to each time some reporter comes calling, rather than tediously responding individually to each in succession.
    See also Occam’s Razor.
    Yes. I think Apple is worried. Very worried. The 'early response' you speak of is pure PR.

    Apple rarely discusses these delicate issues precisely because they don't transmit well into the public domain, however well you present them.

    It's far easier to defend why you have been faithful to your wife than why you haven't. Unless of course you claimed you were but in reality you weren't.

    They were 'forced' to make a statement after the original EU investigation results and again with the Paradise Papers. Damage control. PR.

    This time they went on the defensive and the result has done them few favours IMO.

    The New York Times took just a few very short paragraphs to take a stab at Tim Cook's comments to a US committee a few years ago investigating Apple's tax practices where he blustered (probably for dramatic effect) that Apple didn't have its cash stashed away on a Caribbean island. The Times then quickly reminds us that that was actually true, before casually throwing in a reference to a European island, and with one flash of the pen, the damage is done.

    Apple should know better. This time around you have more than 100 of the world's top investigative journalism outlets perusing an almost endless flow of sensitive data. That is reason enough to be worried.

    Lines like 'we pay more taxes than anyone else' may be fine for your mother but not for these guys. I can guarantee you that that line will be lit up in Christmas lights and then shot down in flames if even so much of an inkling of doubt emerges from the papers.

    Do we have that inkling? Yes, we do. The EU investigation. Now, that has to stand up to inspection and it will be a while before we know the results but it's there. Just like the Paradise Papers are here now and it will also take a while to join the dots.

    In the meantime, only Apple and its lawyers know what is possibly among those documents and how 'clean' they are. And I am referring to both the legal and moral aspects here because some groups will attack one aspect while others will go for the other.

    Apple knows this will not blow over. It will come back time after time until everything has been laid bare.

    The problem is people aren't interested in reasons why they did what they did or didn't do. They are swayed by how the information is presented and Apple has little control over that and if they get caught lobbying it would be worse.

    People remember Star Wars for the bad guys, not the good guys. An investigative article throwing flowers at Apple has little chance of breaking ground but a splash of wrongdoing is all it takes for snowballs to start growing.


  • Reply 69 of 82
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,009member
    gatorguy said:
    cbolger said:
    Wait a minute! If Apple won’t pay 12% through Ireland why would they pay 12% through the United States?

    or any other company for that matter....
    Because Apple argues that the value upon which it ultimately would owe that tax was created in the US, in the form of the design and engineering of its hardware products and in the software.  And this is proper according to tax law.  And so Apple is okay paying tax to the United States.  But if it paid 12% to another country - a country Apple chose merely as an offshore locale to consolidate its foreign revenues - then the US, by virtue of the fact it gives a dollar-for-dollar break in foreign-paid taxes, would therefore get no tax income from Apple.  
    It's not nearly that simple Radar. Apple can rightfully claim of course that the value of the Apple products was created in the US in the form of design and engineering of the software just as you mentioned, but it's a misdirection play. Apple has muddied those waters by transferring the valuable licensing of that design and software created in the US to their Irish subsidiary who had no hand in it, who then uses the fees charged for using it move the majority of profits from the sale of an Apple product in dozens of foreign countries to an entity shielded from tax obligations. That's been found true over and over in countries ranging from Japan to Italy, Australia to Spain, where Apple sells billions in products but claims the value of them and thus the source of the profits came from Irish property. Essentially non-taxable Irish and/or Jersey IP holding companies.

    So Apple really has no valid argument about the value being created in the US and therefor that's where the taxes should be paid when they transfer that value to a foreign country and use creative accounting and obscure law to avoid those taxes there and worldwide. Right?
    Not right.  The fact is, the vast majority of the value IS created in the US and if Apple needs to setup legal structures outside the US to ensure that other countries that had little or no participation in adding that value can’t grab a chunk of tax receipts, then doesn’t that suggest where the immorality lies?  With countries that are trying to take a bite where they have not added value.  Foreign countries get their bit of the pie from consumption taxes (sales tax) and import duties.  That’s as it should be.  Do you think Apple is fighting the EU’s decision to retroactively change the rules and demand back taxes using their competition committee because Apple is a tax dodger.  That doesn’t sound like the Tim Cook’s Apple I read about every day.  Sounds like overreach.  
    Perhaps you have unusually short arms. 

    EDIT: See Carnegie's followup comments to better understand why your argument is flawed. As usual he does a far better job of explaining the point I was making. 
    edited November 2017
  • Reply 70 of 82
    gatorguy said:
    cbolger said:
    Wait a minute! If Apple won’t pay 12% through Ireland why would they pay 12% through the United States?

    or any other company for that matter....
    Because Apple argues that the value upon which it ultimately would owe that tax was created in the US, in the form of the design and engineering of its hardware products and in the software.  And this is proper according to tax law.  And so Apple is okay paying tax to the United States.  But if it paid 12% to another country - a country Apple chose merely as an offshore locale to consolidate its foreign revenues - then the US, by virtue of the fact it gives a dollar-for-dollar break in foreign-paid taxes, would therefore get no tax income from Apple.  
    It's not nearly that simple Radar. Apple can rightfully claim of course that the value of the Apple products was created in the US in the form of design and engineering of the software just as you mentioned, but it's a misdirection play. Apple has muddied those waters by transferring the valuable licensing of that design and software created in the US to their Irish subsidiary who had no hand in it, who then uses the fees charged for using it move the majority of profits from the sale of an Apple product in dozens of foreign countries to an entity shielded from tax obligations. That's been found true over and over in countries ranging from Japan to Italy, Australia to Spain, where Apple sells billions in products but claims the value of them and thus the source of the profits came from Irish property. Essentially non-taxable Irish and/or Jersey IP holding companies.

    So Apple really has no valid argument about the value being created in the US and therefor that's where the taxes should be paid when they transfer that value to a foreign country and use creative accounting and obscure law to avoid those taxes there and worldwide. Right?
    Not right.  The fact is, the vast majority of the value IS created in the US and if Apple needs to setup legal structures outside the US to ensure that other countries that had little or no participation in adding that value can’t grab a chunk of tax receipts, then doesn’t that suggest where the immorality lies?  With countries that are trying to take a bite where they have not added value.  Foreign countries get their bit of the pie from consumption taxes (sales tax) and import duties.  That’s as it should be.  Do you think Apple is fighting the EU’s decision to retroactively change the rules and demand back taxes using their competition committee because Apple is a tax dodger.  That doesn’t sound like the Tim Cook’s Apple I read about every day.  Sounds like overreach.  
    I think I agree with you, in general, when it comes to which parties are and which parties aren't acting ethically in this context. In particular, when it comes to what the EU is trying to do in forcing Ireland to collect additional taxes from Apple, I think it is the EU (i.e. the European Commission) which is the bad actor - the party acting in bad faith and disingenuously.

    That said, I'd offer some comments on the notion of value creation which you are discussing. When it comes to tax accounting, Apple does consider a great deal of the value (relating to sales outside of the Americas) to be created by Irish corporations rather than by the parent U.S. corporation. That's why those earnings aren't immediately taxable in the United States. If the value was considered to be created by the U.S. corporation (as much of the value from sales in the Americas is), it would be taxable immediately whether the earnings were distributed to the parent company or not. Actually, those earnings would be considered domestic earnings to begin with and wouldn't need to be distributed.

    It was because of a quirk of Irish tax law - an intentional quirk - that much of those earnings (which were attributable to Irish corporations because that's where the value was considered to be created) weren't taxable in Ireland. Ireland had chosen, because it saw (and likely realized) advantages from such policy, not to tax earnings of certain kinds of Irish corporations which were attributable to foreign branches. So a corporation might be Irish and that corporation might (based on, among other things, the notion of value creation) have substantial earnings. But that corporation might have domestic and foreign branches and the bulk of those earnings might be attributable to the foreign branches of that corporation and thus not taxable under Irish law. Ireland chose such a tax policy, as it had the right to do. It wasn't some hidden loophole that companies were able to find and exploit. Ireland, it would seem, thought that such a policy gave it an advantage over other nations when it came to attracting foreign business activity.

    Those earnings, of course, are taxable in the U.S. when they are distributed to the parent company (Apple) - to the U.S. taxpayer which owns the controlled foreign corporations. But that isn't because the value is considered to be created in the U.S., it's because foreign earnings (of controlled foreign corporations) are generally taxed in the U.S. when they are distributed to U.S. taxpayers regardless of whether the value underlying those earnings was considered to be created in the United States.
    tmaygatorguymuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 71 of 82
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,009member
    carnegie said:
    gatorguy said:
    cbolger said:
    Wait a minute! If Apple won’t pay 12% through Ireland why would they pay 12% through the United States?

    or any other company for that matter....
    Because Apple argues that the value upon which it ultimately would owe that tax was created in the US, in the form of the design and engineering of its hardware products and in the software.  And this is proper according to tax law.  And so Apple is okay paying tax to the United States.  But if it paid 12% to another country - a country Apple chose merely as an offshore locale to consolidate its foreign revenues - then the US, by virtue of the fact it gives a dollar-for-dollar break in foreign-paid taxes, would therefore get no tax income from Apple.  
    It's not nearly that simple Radar. Apple can rightfully claim of course that the value of the Apple products was created in the US in the form of design and engineering of the software just as you mentioned, but it's a misdirection play. Apple has muddied those waters by transferring the valuable licensing of that design and software created in the US to their Irish subsidiary who had no hand in it, who then uses the fees charged for using it move the majority of profits from the sale of an Apple product in dozens of foreign countries to an entity shielded from tax obligations. That's been found true over and over in countries ranging from Japan to Italy, Australia to Spain, where Apple sells billions in products but claims the value of them and thus the source of the profits came from Irish property. Essentially non-taxable Irish and/or Jersey IP holding companies.

    So Apple really has no valid argument about the value being created in the US and therefor that's where the taxes should be paid when they transfer that value to a foreign country and use creative accounting and obscure law to avoid those taxes there and worldwide. Right?
    Not right.  The fact is, the vast majority of the value IS created in the US and if Apple needs to setup legal structures outside the US to ensure that other countries that had little or no participation in adding that value can’t grab a chunk of tax receipts, then doesn’t that suggest where the immorality lies?  With countries that are trying to take a bite where they have not added value.  Foreign countries get their bit of the pie from consumption taxes (sales tax) and import duties.  That’s as it should be.  Do you think Apple is fighting the EU’s decision to retroactively change the rules and demand back taxes using their competition committee because Apple is a tax dodger.  That doesn’t sound like the Tim Cook’s Apple I read about every day.  Sounds like overreach.  
    I think I agree with you, in general, when it comes to which parties are and which parties aren't acting ethically in this context. In particular, when it comes to what the EU is trying to do in forcing Ireland to collect additional taxes from Apple, I think it is the EU (i.e. the European Commission) which is the bad actor - the party acting in bad faith and disingenuously.

    That said, I'd offer some comments on the notion of value creation which you are discussing. When it comes to tax accounting, Apple does consider a great deal of the value (relating to sales outside of the Americas) to be created by Irish corporations rather than by the parent U.S. corporation. That's why those earnings aren't immediately taxable in the United States. If the value was considered to be created by the U.S. corporation (as much of the value from sales in the Americas is), it would be taxable immediately whether the earnings were distributed to the parent company or not. Actually, those earnings would be considered domestic earnings to begin with and wouldn't need to be distributed.

    It was because of a quirk of Irish tax law - an intentional quirk - that much of those earnings (which were attributable to Irish corporations because that's where the value was considered to be created) weren't taxable in Ireland. Ireland had chosen, because it saw (and likely realized) advantages from such policy, not to tax earnings of certain kinds of Irish corporations which were attributable to foreign branches. So a corporation might be Irish and that corporation might (based on, among other things, the notion of value creation) have substantial earnings. But that corporation might have domestic and foreign branches and the bulk of those earnings might be attributable to the foreign branches of that corporation and thus not taxable under Irish law. Ireland chose such a tax policy, as it had the right to do. It wasn't some hidden loophole that companies were able to find and exploit. Ireland, it would seem, thought that such a policy gave it an advantage over other nations when it came to attracting foreign business activity.

    Those earnings, of course, are taxable in the U.S. when they are distributed to the parent company (Apple) - to the U.S. taxpayer which owns the controlled foreign corporations. But that isn't because the value is considered to be created in the U.S., it's because foreign earnings (of controlled foreign corporations) are generally taxed in the U.S. when they are distributed to U.S. taxpayers regardless of whether the value underlying those earnings was considered to be created in the United States.
    As usual you offer a nicely detailed explanation.  You do a far better job of articulating the rationale behind some of my arguments than I can sometimes do. Thanks once again. :)
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 72 of 82
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,458member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    fred1 said:
    So much EU bashing, and why?  Do you live in the EU? (Have you ever even been to an EU country?). Did you say that the US shouldn’t exist when Congress was supposedly investigating where Aplle stashes its profits?

    These EU officials are doing their job: enforcing the tax laws. Why does this seem so strange to you?
    Yes. You are right. I commented in another thread on exactly what the commissioner has said now someone tried to claim I was using 'weasel' words. LOL.

    All of this is being investigated as we speak. The amount of documents in this leak is vast, so vast that the work will take time to be carried out. We have already seen some prickly documents.

    While all the information is verified and cross referenced, the commissioners and ministers of member states will formerly require the individuals and companies to 'fill in any gaps' on previous declarations in the cases of open investigations. 

    We will see, much further down the line, just how legal the actions of those involved is, but in the case of Apple they have taken a battering in public opinion through the revelations in the press. That is precisely why Apple made a statement in the first place.

    Some people seem to be having trouble accepting this, others just hate the EU.

    I would be worried if the EU didn't do anything. You can be sure the US is also perusing the documents too.

    Trying to make out this hasn't been a PR nightmare is frankly difficult to understand.

    Actually I can guess why people in this forum think that this is NOT a PR nightmare, but you think otherwise. I got time to read only Apple's statement on this issue and I must add - it looked fairly reasonable to me (with my limited knowledge on this topic of taxation of international companies like Apple). I have NOT gone through even a SINGLE article yet on Paradise papers, what information was leaked into public domain etc. Since I have not gone through the actual story but has read only Apple's version, I have not commented on this thread yet. I can easily imagine others in this forum NOT having gone through even a single article on Paradise papers but only Apple's statement. And still comment on the topic based on their prior wealth of knowledge on taxation (which I don't have). It could be possible that only you and very few others have gone through the story from both sides while commenting.
    That is definitely feasible. However, the reality is there for all to see.

    If Apple has made a formal statement mere hours after this went public it should be clear that this is a major issue.

    The Paradise Papers have been handed over to over 100 respected news outlets for study and documentary style reports have already been aired. 

    It doesn't even matter if Apple is innocent of course. The fact that documents like the questionnaire, however normal they may be among multinationals, have reached the public domain is of paramount concern to Apple PR. The risk of some damaging mails being found among the data is also there.

    I have yet to see a news piece of this subject that doesn't mention Apple and I am sure that that is a situation Apple is very worried about in its PR department which must be a hive of activity right now.

    You only have to dip into the comments sections of press outlets to gauge opinion.


    You seem to think Apple’s early response implies Apple is ‘worried’ about something.  It’s more reasonable to conclude that Apple made an early response simply due to the fact the Paradise Papers are being looked at by so many news outlets; a timely response provides Apple with boilerplate it can point to each time some reporter comes calling, rather than tediously responding individually to each in succession.
    See also Occam’s Razor.
    Yes. I think Apple is worried. Very worried. The 'early response' you speak of is pure PR.

    Apple rarely discusses these delicate issues precisely because they don't transmit well into the public domain, however well you present them.

    It's far easier to defend why you have been faithful to your wife than why you haven't. Unless of course you claimed you were but in reality you weren't.

    They were 'forced' to make a statement after the original EU investigation results and again with the Paradise Papers. Damage control. PR.

    This time they went on the defensive and the result has done them few favours IMO.

    The New York Times took just a few very short paragraphs to take a stab at Tim Cook's comments to a US committee a few years ago investigating Apple's tax practices where he blustered (probably for dramatic effect) that Apple didn't have its cash stashed away on a Caribbean island. The Times then quickly reminds us that that was actually true, before casually throwing in a reference to a European island, and with one flash of the pen, the damage is done.

    Apple should know better. This time around you have more than 100 of the world's top investigative journalism outlets perusing an almost endless flow of sensitive data. That is reason enough to be worried.

    Lines like 'we pay more taxes than anyone else' may be fine for your mother but not for these guys. I can guarantee you that that line will be lit up in Christmas lights and then shot down in flames if even so much of an inkling of doubt emerges from the papers.

    Do we have that inkling? Yes, we do. The EU investigation. Now, that has to stand up to inspection and it will be a while before we know the results but it's there. Just like the Paradise Papers are here now and it will also take a while to join the dots.

    In the meantime, only Apple and its lawyers know what is possibly among those documents and how 'clean' they are. And I am referring to both the legal and moral aspects here because some groups will attack one aspect while others will go for the other.

    Apple knows this will not blow over. It will come back time after time until everything has been laid bare.

    The problem is people aren't interested in reasons why they did what they did or didn't do. They are swayed by how the information is presented and Apple has little control over that and if they get caught lobbying it would be worse.

    People remember Star Wars for the bad guys, not the good guys. An investigative article throwing flowers at Apple has little chance of breaking ground but a splash of wrongdoing is all it takes for snowballs to start growing.


    Less FUD, more facts.
  • Reply 73 of 82
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,313member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    fred1 said:
    So much EU bashing, and why?  Do you live in the EU? (Have you ever even been to an EU country?). Did you say that the US shouldn’t exist when Congress was supposedly investigating where Aplle stashes its profits?

    These EU officials are doing their job: enforcing the tax laws. Why does this seem so strange to you?
    Yes. You are right. I commented in another thread on exactly what the commissioner has said now someone tried to claim I was using 'weasel' words. LOL.

    All of this is being investigated as we speak. The amount of documents in this leak is vast, so vast that the work will take time to be carried out. We have already seen some prickly documents.

    While all the information is verified and cross referenced, the commissioners and ministers of member states will formerly require the individuals and companies to 'fill in any gaps' on previous declarations in the cases of open investigations. 

    We will see, much further down the line, just how legal the actions of those involved is, but in the case of Apple they have taken a battering in public opinion through the revelations in the press. That is precisely why Apple made a statement in the first place.

    Some people seem to be having trouble accepting this, others just hate the EU.

    I would be worried if the EU didn't do anything. You can be sure the US is also perusing the documents too.

    Trying to make out this hasn't been a PR nightmare is frankly difficult to understand.

    Actually I can guess why people in this forum think that this is NOT a PR nightmare, but you think otherwise. I got time to read only Apple's statement on this issue and I must add - it looked fairly reasonable to me (with my limited knowledge on this topic of taxation of international companies like Apple). I have NOT gone through even a SINGLE article yet on Paradise papers, what information was leaked into public domain etc. Since I have not gone through the actual story but has read only Apple's version, I have not commented on this thread yet. I can easily imagine others in this forum NOT having gone through even a single article on Paradise papers but only Apple's statement. And still comment on the topic based on their prior wealth of knowledge on taxation (which I don't have). It could be possible that only you and very few others have gone through the story from both sides while commenting.
    That is definitely feasible. However, the reality is there for all to see.

    If Apple has made a formal statement mere hours after this went public it should be clear that this is a major issue.

    The Paradise Papers have been handed over to over 100 respected news outlets for study and documentary style reports have already been aired. 

    It doesn't even matter if Apple is innocent of course. The fact that documents like the questionnaire, however normal they may be among multinationals, have reached the public domain is of paramount concern to Apple PR. The risk of some damaging mails being found among the data is also there.

    I have yet to see a news piece of this subject that doesn't mention Apple and I am sure that that is a situation Apple is very worried about in its PR department which must be a hive of activity right now.

    You only have to dip into the comments sections of press outlets to gauge opinion.


    You seem to think Apple’s early response implies Apple is ‘worried’ about something.  It’s more reasonable to conclude that Apple made an early response simply due to the fact the Paradise Papers are being looked at by so many news outlets; a timely response provides Apple with boilerplate it can point to each time some reporter comes calling, rather than tediously responding individually to each in succession.
    See also Occam’s Razor.
    Yes. I think Apple is worried. Very worried. The 'early response' you speak of is pure PR.

    Apple rarely discusses these delicate issues precisely because they don't transmit well into the public domain, however well you present them.

    It's far easier to defend why you have been faithful to your wife than why you haven't. Unless of course you claimed you were but in reality you weren't.

    They were 'forced' to make a statement after the original EU investigation results and again with the Paradise Papers. Damage control. PR.

    This time they went on the defensive and the result has done them few favours IMO.

    The New York Times took just a few very short paragraphs to take a stab at Tim Cook's comments to a US committee a few years ago investigating Apple's tax practices where he blustered (probably for dramatic effect) that Apple didn't have its cash stashed away on a Caribbean island. The Times then quickly reminds us that that was actually true, before casually throwing in a reference to a European island, and with one flash of the pen, the damage is done.

    Apple should know better. This time around you have more than 100 of the world's top investigative journalism outlets perusing an almost endless flow of sensitive data. That is reason enough to be worried.

    Lines like 'we pay more taxes than anyone else' may be fine for your mother but not for these guys. I can guarantee you that that line will be lit up in Christmas lights and then shot down in flames if even so much of an inkling of doubt emerges from the papers.

    Do we have that inkling? Yes, we do. The EU investigation. Now, that has to stand up to inspection and it will be a while before we know the results but it's there. Just like the Paradise Papers are here now and it will also take a while to join the dots.

    In the meantime, only Apple and its lawyers know what is possibly among those documents and how 'clean' they are. And I am referring to both the legal and moral aspects here because some groups will attack one aspect while others will go for the other.

    Apple knows this will not blow over. It will come back time after time until everything has been laid bare.

    The problem is people aren't interested in reasons why they did what they did or didn't do. They are swayed by how the information is presented and Apple has little control over that and if they get caught lobbying it would be worse.

    People remember Star Wars for the bad guys, not the good guys. An investigative article throwing flowers at Apple has little chance of breaking ground but a splash of wrongdoing is all it takes for snowballs to start growing.


    Less FUD, more facts.
    The facts are there was a EU investigation and Apple wasn't shown in good light.

    The facts are that there was a US enquiry and Apple wasn't shown in good light.

    The facts are the Paradise Papers are being poured over by hundreds of the world's top investigative journalists and even after just scratching the surface are not showing Apple in good light.

    The facts are Tim Cook made statements after all three incidences arose. Those statements are receiving attention and it's not the kind of attention Apple likes to have.

    I could go on but those are the facts with no FUD anywhere to be seen.

    Nobody has accused Apple of anything except the EU but it's not accusations that matter. It's being mentioned in the same breath as the Paradise Papers. That in itself is reason enough for concern at Apple.
  • Reply 74 of 82
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,458member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    fred1 said:
    So much EU bashing, and why?  Do you live in the EU? (Have you ever even been to an EU country?). Did you say that the US shouldn’t exist when Congress was supposedly investigating where Aplle stashes its profits?

    These EU officials are doing their job: enforcing the tax laws. Why does this seem so strange to you?
    Yes. You are right. I commented in another thread on exactly what the commissioner has said now someone tried to claim I was using 'weasel' words. LOL.

    All of this is being investigated as we speak. The amount of documents in this leak is vast, so vast that the work will take time to be carried out. We have already seen some prickly documents.

    While all the information is verified and cross referenced, the commissioners and ministers of member states will formerly require the individuals and companies to 'fill in any gaps' on previous declarations in the cases of open investigations. 

    We will see, much further down the line, just how legal the actions of those involved is, but in the case of Apple they have taken a battering in public opinion through the revelations in the press. That is precisely why Apple made a statement in the first place.

    Some people seem to be having trouble accepting this, others just hate the EU.

    I would be worried if the EU didn't do anything. You can be sure the US is also perusing the documents too.

    Trying to make out this hasn't been a PR nightmare is frankly difficult to understand.

    Actually I can guess why people in this forum think that this is NOT a PR nightmare, but you think otherwise. I got time to read only Apple's statement on this issue and I must add - it looked fairly reasonable to me (with my limited knowledge on this topic of taxation of international companies like Apple). I have NOT gone through even a SINGLE article yet on Paradise papers, what information was leaked into public domain etc. Since I have not gone through the actual story but has read only Apple's version, I have not commented on this thread yet. I can easily imagine others in this forum NOT having gone through even a single article on Paradise papers but only Apple's statement. And still comment on the topic based on their prior wealth of knowledge on taxation (which I don't have). It could be possible that only you and very few others have gone through the story from both sides while commenting.
    That is definitely feasible. However, the reality is there for all to see.

    If Apple has made a formal statement mere hours after this went public it should be clear that this is a major issue.

    The Paradise Papers have been handed over to over 100 respected news outlets for study and documentary style reports have already been aired. 

    It doesn't even matter if Apple is innocent of course. The fact that documents like the questionnaire, however normal they may be among multinationals, have reached the public domain is of paramount concern to Apple PR. The risk of some damaging mails being found among the data is also there.

    I have yet to see a news piece of this subject that doesn't mention Apple and I am sure that that is a situation Apple is very worried about in its PR department which must be a hive of activity right now.

    You only have to dip into the comments sections of press outlets to gauge opinion.


    You seem to think Apple’s early response implies Apple is ‘worried’ about something.  It’s more reasonable to conclude that Apple made an early response simply due to the fact the Paradise Papers are being looked at by so many news outlets; a timely response provides Apple with boilerplate it can point to each time some reporter comes calling, rather than tediously responding individually to each in succession.
    See also Occam’s Razor.
    Yes. I think Apple is worried. Very worried. The 'early response' you speak of is pure PR.

    Apple rarely discusses these delicate issues precisely because they don't transmit well into the public domain, however well you present them.

    It's far easier to defend why you have been faithful to your wife than why you haven't. Unless of course you claimed you were but in reality you weren't.

    They were 'forced' to make a statement after the original EU investigation results and again with the Paradise Papers. Damage control. PR.

    This time they went on the defensive and the result has done them few favours IMO.

    The New York Times took just a few very short paragraphs to take a stab at Tim Cook's comments to a US committee a few years ago investigating Apple's tax practices where he blustered (probably for dramatic effect) that Apple didn't have its cash stashed away on a Caribbean island. The Times then quickly reminds us that that was actually true, before casually throwing in a reference to a European island, and with one flash of the pen, the damage is done.

    Apple should know better. This time around you have more than 100 of the world's top investigative journalism outlets perusing an almost endless flow of sensitive data. That is reason enough to be worried.

    Lines like 'we pay more taxes than anyone else' may be fine for your mother but not for these guys. I can guarantee you that that line will be lit up in Christmas lights and then shot down in flames if even so much of an inkling of doubt emerges from the papers.

    Do we have that inkling? Yes, we do. The EU investigation. Now, that has to stand up to inspection and it will be a while before we know the results but it's there. Just like the Paradise Papers are here now and it will also take a while to join the dots.

    In the meantime, only Apple and its lawyers know what is possibly among those documents and how 'clean' they are. And I am referring to both the legal and moral aspects here because some groups will attack one aspect while others will go for the other.

    Apple knows this will not blow over. It will come back time after time until everything has been laid bare.

    The problem is people aren't interested in reasons why they did what they did or didn't do. They are swayed by how the information is presented and Apple has little control over that and if they get caught lobbying it would be worse.

    People remember Star Wars for the bad guys, not the good guys. An investigative article throwing flowers at Apple has little chance of breaking ground but a splash of wrongdoing is all it takes for snowballs to start growing.


    Less FUD, more facts.
    The facts are there was a EU investigation and Apple wasn't shown in good light.

    The facts are that there was a US enquiry and Apple wasn't shown in good light.

    The facts are the Paradise Papers are being poured over by hundreds of the world's top investigative journalists and even after just scratching the surface are not showing Apple in good light.

    The facts are Tim Cook made statements after all three incidences arose. Those statements are receiving attention and it's not the kind of attention Apple likes to have.

    I could go on but those are the facts with no FUD anywhere to be seen.

    Nobody has accused Apple of anything except the EU but it's not accusations that matter. It's being mentioned in the same breath as the Paradise Papers. That in itself is reason enough for concern at Apple.
    You just outlined what FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) is, and laid it on thick.
    Let me know when Apple has done something illegal, because so far, I'm not seeing that.
  • Reply 75 of 82
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,009member
    abriden said:

    bb-15 said:
    abriden said:
    To those who have so far defended Apple's tax avoidance and blame the laws rather than those abusing them, it is by no means certain that Apple have operated legally at all — by all accounts the arrangement with the Irish government was illegal and the subject of an EU investigation. Secrecy is the reason these tax avoidance schemes have thus far been allowed to happen unchallenged, but hopefully the so-called Paradise Papers will prompt reforms (though I won't hold my breath).

    There is a reason why private and public companies have to publish their accounts for transparency — hiding the money in countries with greater secrecy does not make it legal.
    You are misinformed. 
    1. The tax situation in Ireland was not secret. It is based on the double Irish arrangement which has been in effect since the late 1980s.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement

    2. The tax arrangement between Ireland and Apple was legal in Ireland. Why? Because Ireland is a sovereign nation which can pass its own laws which are enforced by its government.
    - And again this arrangement has been known for decades.

    3. The EU does not strip the Irish government of all its power. Ireland is appealing the actions of the EU in this situation.
    Ireland believes that the tax situation with Apple is appropriate.

    4. You imply that Apple does nothing to contribute to the funding of services in Ireland. That is false.
    - Apple employs 4,000 workers in Cork (6,000 total in the country). The income of those workers helps the Irish economy which in turn helps to fund services. 
    - Apple's profits in Ireland are taxed at the rate of 12.5% in an agreement with the Irish government. Besides being legal, 12.5% is not 0%.
    The tax money from Apple in Ireland helps the Irish economy and therefore services in Ireland.
    - Apple pays lots of taxes around the world. Probably more taxes than any other company. All of that money helps to fund services.  

    5. Finally, the money that Apple is holding outside of the US has to do with US taxes. Apple wants a lower US tax rate before paying US taxes on that money. This money from the view of the US and Apple, is not about taxes that should go to the EU. 

    Apple uses shell companies that are businesses in name only, with no more than a business address — as arranged by Appleby, in common with its other clients. Apple has tangible operations all over the world, that's not in dispute. I'm disputing the bouncing of profits between shell companies and the offsetting of these profits against unsubstantiated 'fees' which are not open to scrutiny — I don't believe that is honest or in the spirit of the law, a theme that Tim Cook chose to draw particular attention to.
    So Apple should leave it China profits in China?  It’s France profits in France, etc?  It’s more efficient to consolidate all foreign-earned profits and that is what is being done with a shell company.  Multinationals like Apple simply seek a location for such a shell company that won’t try to tax profits that have already been taxed in the countries where they were earned and which are not subject to US tax until repatriated.  There doesn’t have to be anything shady involved when you hear the term ‘shell company.’
    Well Apple after a bit of "convincing" agreed that the revenue from product sales in Italy will henceforth be declared as Italian income, with proper corporate taxes on it paid to Italy instead of shifted to Ireland. Obviously they could do the same thing in every country they sold product in with the proper motivation to do so. In Italy it appears it took the threat of actual jail-time of a "Senior Apple Executive" under tax evasion charges.
    edited November 2017 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 76 of 82
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,313member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    fred1 said:
    So much EU bashing, and why?  Do you live in the EU? (Have you ever even been to an EU country?). Did you say that the US shouldn’t exist when Congress was supposedly investigating where Aplle stashes its profits?

    These EU officials are doing their job: enforcing the tax laws. Why does this seem so strange to you?
    Yes. You are right. I commented in another thread on exactly what the commissioner has said now someone tried to claim I was using 'weasel' words. LOL.

    All of this is being investigated as we speak. The amount of documents in this leak is vast, so vast that the work will take time to be carried out. We have already seen some prickly documents.

    While all the information is verified and cross referenced, the commissioners and ministers of member states will formerly require the individuals and companies to 'fill in any gaps' on previous declarations in the cases of open investigations. 

    We will see, much further down the line, just how legal the actions of those involved is, but in the case of Apple they have taken a battering in public opinion through the revelations in the press. That is precisely why Apple made a statement in the first place.

    Some people seem to be having trouble accepting this, others just hate the EU.

    I would be worried if the EU didn't do anything. You can be sure the US is also perusing the documents too.

    Trying to make out this hasn't been a PR nightmare is frankly difficult to understand.

    Actually I can guess why people in this forum think that this is NOT a PR nightmare, but you think otherwise. I got time to read only Apple's statement on this issue and I must add - it looked fairly reasonable to me (with my limited knowledge on this topic of taxation of international companies like Apple). I have NOT gone through even a SINGLE article yet on Paradise papers, what information was leaked into public domain etc. Since I have not gone through the actual story but has read only Apple's version, I have not commented on this thread yet. I can easily imagine others in this forum NOT having gone through even a single article on Paradise papers but only Apple's statement. And still comment on the topic based on their prior wealth of knowledge on taxation (which I don't have). It could be possible that only you and very few others have gone through the story from both sides while commenting.
    That is definitely feasible. However, the reality is there for all to see.

    If Apple has made a formal statement mere hours after this went public it should be clear that this is a major issue.

    The Paradise Papers have been handed over to over 100 respected news outlets for study and documentary style reports have already been aired. 

    It doesn't even matter if Apple is innocent of course. The fact that documents like the questionnaire, however normal they may be among multinationals, have reached the public domain is of paramount concern to Apple PR. The risk of some damaging mails being found among the data is also there.

    I have yet to see a news piece of this subject that doesn't mention Apple and I am sure that that is a situation Apple is very worried about in its PR department which must be a hive of activity right now.

    You only have to dip into the comments sections of press outlets to gauge opinion.


    You seem to think Apple’s early response implies Apple is ‘worried’ about something.  It’s more reasonable to conclude that Apple made an early response simply due to the fact the Paradise Papers are being looked at by so many news outlets; a timely response provides Apple with boilerplate it can point to each time some reporter comes calling, rather than tediously responding individually to each in succession.
    See also Occam’s Razor.
    Yes. I think Apple is worried. Very worried. The 'early response' you speak of is pure PR.

    Apple rarely discusses these delicate issues precisely because they don't transmit well into the public domain, however well you present them.

    It's far easier to defend why you have been faithful to your wife than why you haven't. Unless of course you claimed you were but in reality you weren't.

    They were 'forced' to make a statement after the original EU investigation results and again with the Paradise Papers. Damage control. PR.

    This time they went on the defensive and the result has done them few favours IMO.

    The New York Times took just a few very short paragraphs to take a stab at Tim Cook's comments to a US committee a few years ago investigating Apple's tax practices where he blustered (probably for dramatic effect) that Apple didn't have its cash stashed away on a Caribbean island. The Times then quickly reminds us that that was actually true, before casually throwing in a reference to a European island, and with one flash of the pen, the damage is done.

    Apple should know better. This time around you have more than 100 of the world's top investigative journalism outlets perusing an almost endless flow of sensitive data. That is reason enough to be worried.

    Lines like 'we pay more taxes than anyone else' may be fine for your mother but not for these guys. I can guarantee you that that line will be lit up in Christmas lights and then shot down in flames if even so much of an inkling of doubt emerges from the papers.

    Do we have that inkling? Yes, we do. The EU investigation. Now, that has to stand up to inspection and it will be a while before we know the results but it's there. Just like the Paradise Papers are here now and it will also take a while to join the dots.

    In the meantime, only Apple and its lawyers know what is possibly among those documents and how 'clean' they are. And I am referring to both the legal and moral aspects here because some groups will attack one aspect while others will go for the other.

    Apple knows this will not blow over. It will come back time after time until everything has been laid bare.

    The problem is people aren't interested in reasons why they did what they did or didn't do. They are swayed by how the information is presented and Apple has little control over that and if they get caught lobbying it would be worse.

    People remember Star Wars for the bad guys, not the good guys. An investigative article throwing flowers at Apple has little chance of breaking ground but a splash of wrongdoing is all it takes for snowballs to start growing.


    Less FUD, more facts.
    The facts are there was a EU investigation and Apple wasn't shown in good light.

    The facts are that there was a US enquiry and Apple wasn't shown in good light.

    The facts are the Paradise Papers are being poured over by hundreds of the world's top investigative journalists and even after just scratching the surface are not showing Apple in good light.

    The facts are Tim Cook made statements after all three incidences arose. Those statements are receiving attention and it's not the kind of attention Apple likes to have.

    I could go on but those are the facts with no FUD anywhere to be seen.

    Nobody has accused Apple of anything except the EU but it's not accusations that matter. It's being mentioned in the same breath as the Paradise Papers. That in itself is reason enough for concern at Apple.
    You just outlined what FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) is, and laid it on thick.
    Let me know when Apple has done something illegal, because so far, I'm not seeing that.
    Perhaps you aren't seeing the forest for the trees. The whole point of what I commented on regarding PR, has nothing to do with Apple actually doing anything illegal or not but simply having these issues on the table in the first place and how the wider public interprets them. That interpretation will largely be based on how the information is presented, NOT on whether there is any actual wrongdoing or not. If you call that FUD, fine, but don't attribute it to me 

    These are not issues I have put forward. They are issues that the US government, the EU and now the Paradise Papers have put forward and Apple has chosen to respond to.

    Although you believe otherwise, I believe it is a PR nightmare for all of the reasons I have already mentioned.

    This AI article is just one of hundreds popping up all over the globe. Each one will have offspring as more details emerge. It's logical that people have an interest. Moreso as the Paradise Papers have an instant and negative backdrop. Something that attracts people and something that Apple, as one of the named parties, would of course want to disassociate itself from.

    That's where PR will be working overtime.


  • Reply 77 of 82
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,458member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    fred1 said:
    So much EU bashing, and why?  Do you live in the EU? (Have you ever even been to an EU country?). Did you say that the US shouldn’t exist when Congress was supposedly investigating where Aplle stashes its profits?

    These EU officials are doing their job: enforcing the tax laws. Why does this seem so strange to you?
    Yes. You are right. I commented in another thread on exactly what the commissioner has said now someone tried to claim I was using 'weasel' words. LOL.

    All of this is being investigated as we speak. The amount of documents in this leak is vast, so vast that the work will take time to be carried out. We have already seen some prickly documents.

    While all the information is verified and cross referenced, the commissioners and ministers of member states will formerly require the individuals and companies to 'fill in any gaps' on previous declarations in the cases of open investigations. 

    We will see, much further down the line, just how legal the actions of those involved is, but in the case of Apple they have taken a battering in public opinion through the revelations in the press. That is precisely why Apple made a statement in the first place.

    Some people seem to be having trouble accepting this, others just hate the EU.

    I would be worried if the EU didn't do anything. You can be sure the US is also perusing the documents too.

    Trying to make out this hasn't been a PR nightmare is frankly difficult to understand.

    Actually I can guess why people in this forum think that this is NOT a PR nightmare, but you think otherwise. I got time to read only Apple's statement on this issue and I must add - it looked fairly reasonable to me (with my limited knowledge on this topic of taxation of international companies like Apple). I have NOT gone through even a SINGLE article yet on Paradise papers, what information was leaked into public domain etc. Since I have not gone through the actual story but has read only Apple's version, I have not commented on this thread yet. I can easily imagine others in this forum NOT having gone through even a single article on Paradise papers but only Apple's statement. And still comment on the topic based on their prior wealth of knowledge on taxation (which I don't have). It could be possible that only you and very few others have gone through the story from both sides while commenting.
    That is definitely feasible. However, the reality is there for all to see.

    If Apple has made a formal statement mere hours after this went public it should be clear that this is a major issue.

    The Paradise Papers have been handed over to over 100 respected news outlets for study and documentary style reports have already been aired. 

    It doesn't even matter if Apple is innocent of course. The fact that documents like the questionnaire, however normal they may be among multinationals, have reached the public domain is of paramount concern to Apple PR. The risk of some damaging mails being found among the data is also there.

    I have yet to see a news piece of this subject that doesn't mention Apple and I am sure that that is a situation Apple is very worried about in its PR department which must be a hive of activity right now.

    You only have to dip into the comments sections of press outlets to gauge opinion.


    You seem to think Apple’s early response implies Apple is ‘worried’ about something.  It’s more reasonable to conclude that Apple made an early response simply due to the fact the Paradise Papers are being looked at by so many news outlets; a timely response provides Apple with boilerplate it can point to each time some reporter comes calling, rather than tediously responding individually to each in succession.
    See also Occam’s Razor.
    Yes. I think Apple is worried. Very worried. The 'early response' you speak of is pure PR.

    Apple rarely discusses these delicate issues precisely because they don't transmit well into the public domain, however well you present them.

    It's far easier to defend why you have been faithful to your wife than why you haven't. Unless of course you claimed you were but in reality you weren't.

    They were 'forced' to make a statement after the original EU investigation results and again with the Paradise Papers. Damage control. PR.

    This time they went on the defensive and the result has done them few favours IMO.

    The New York Times took just a few very short paragraphs to take a stab at Tim Cook's comments to a US committee a few years ago investigating Apple's tax practices where he blustered (probably for dramatic effect) that Apple didn't have its cash stashed away on a Caribbean island. The Times then quickly reminds us that that was actually true, before casually throwing in a reference to a European island, and with one flash of the pen, the damage is done.

    Apple should know better. This time around you have more than 100 of the world's top investigative journalism outlets perusing an almost endless flow of sensitive data. That is reason enough to be worried.

    Lines like 'we pay more taxes than anyone else' may be fine for your mother but not for these guys. I can guarantee you that that line will be lit up in Christmas lights and then shot down in flames if even so much of an inkling of doubt emerges from the papers.

    Do we have that inkling? Yes, we do. The EU investigation. Now, that has to stand up to inspection and it will be a while before we know the results but it's there. Just like the Paradise Papers are here now and it will also take a while to join the dots.

    In the meantime, only Apple and its lawyers know what is possibly among those documents and how 'clean' they are. And I am referring to both the legal and moral aspects here because some groups will attack one aspect while others will go for the other.

    Apple knows this will not blow over. It will come back time after time until everything has been laid bare.

    The problem is people aren't interested in reasons why they did what they did or didn't do. They are swayed by how the information is presented and Apple has little control over that and if they get caught lobbying it would be worse.

    People remember Star Wars for the bad guys, not the good guys. An investigative article throwing flowers at Apple has little chance of breaking ground but a splash of wrongdoing is all it takes for snowballs to start growing.


    Less FUD, more facts.
    The facts are there was a EU investigation and Apple wasn't shown in good light.

    The facts are that there was a US enquiry and Apple wasn't shown in good light.

    The facts are the Paradise Papers are being poured over by hundreds of the world's top investigative journalists and even after just scratching the surface are not showing Apple in good light.

    The facts are Tim Cook made statements after all three incidences arose. Those statements are receiving attention and it's not the kind of attention Apple likes to have.

    I could go on but those are the facts with no FUD anywhere to be seen.

    Nobody has accused Apple of anything except the EU but it's not accusations that matter. It's being mentioned in the same breath as the Paradise Papers. That in itself is reason enough for concern at Apple.
    You just outlined what FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) is, and laid it on thick.
    Let me know when Apple has done something illegal, because so far, I'm not seeing that.
    Perhaps you aren't seeing the forest for the trees. The whole point of what I commented on regarding PR, has nothing to do with Apple actually doing anything illegal or not but simply having these issues on the table in the first place and how the wider public interprets them. That interpretation will largely be based on how the information is presented, NOT on whether there is any actual wrongdoing or not. If you call that FUD, fine, but don't attribute it to me 

    These are not issues I have put forward. They are issues that the US government, the EU and now the Paradise Papers have put forward and Apple has chosen to respond to.

    Although you believe otherwise, I believe it is a PR nightmare for all of the reasons I have already mentioned.

    This AI article is just one of hundreds popping up all over the globe. Each one will have offspring as more details emerge. It's logical that people have an interest. Moreso as the Paradise Papers have an instant and negative backdrop. Something that attracts people and something that Apple, as one of the named parties, would of course want to disassociate itself from.

    That's where PR will be working overtime.


    A perfect example of a PR disaster is Twitter going to 280 words.

    What Apple is doing is just inside baseball stuff; average people's eyes glaze over from the complexity of it. 

    You are spreading FUD; that's obvious from your posts, but knock yourself out.

  • Reply 78 of 82
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,313member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    fred1 said:
    So much EU bashing, and why?  Do you live in the EU? (Have you ever even been to an EU country?). Did you say that the US shouldn’t exist when Congress was supposedly investigating where Aplle stashes its profits?

    These EU officials are doing their job: enforcing the tax laws. Why does this seem so strange to you?
    Yes. You are right. I commented in another thread on exactly what the commissioner has said now someone tried to claim I was using 'weasel' words. LOL.

    All of this is being investigated as we speak. The amount of documents in this leak is vast, so vast that the work will take time to be carried out. We have already seen some prickly documents.

    While all the information is verified and cross referenced, the commissioners and ministers of member states will formerly require the individuals and companies to 'fill in any gaps' on previous declarations in the cases of open investigations. 

    We will see, much further down the line, just how legal the actions of those involved is, but in the case of Apple they have taken a battering in public opinion through the revelations in the press. That is precisely why Apple made a statement in the first place.

    Some people seem to be having trouble accepting this, others just hate the EU.

    I would be worried if the EU didn't do anything. You can be sure the US is also perusing the documents too.

    Trying to make out this hasn't been a PR nightmare is frankly difficult to understand.

    Actually I can guess why people in this forum think that this is NOT a PR nightmare, but you think otherwise. I got time to read only Apple's statement on this issue and I must add - it looked fairly reasonable to me (with my limited knowledge on this topic of taxation of international companies like Apple). I have NOT gone through even a SINGLE article yet on Paradise papers, what information was leaked into public domain etc. Since I have not gone through the actual story but has read only Apple's version, I have not commented on this thread yet. I can easily imagine others in this forum NOT having gone through even a single article on Paradise papers but only Apple's statement. And still comment on the topic based on their prior wealth of knowledge on taxation (which I don't have). It could be possible that only you and very few others have gone through the story from both sides while commenting.
    That is definitely feasible. However, the reality is there for all to see.

    If Apple has made a formal statement mere hours after this went public it should be clear that this is a major issue.

    The Paradise Papers have been handed over to over 100 respected news outlets for study and documentary style reports have already been aired. 

    It doesn't even matter if Apple is innocent of course. The fact that documents like the questionnaire, however normal they may be among multinationals, have reached the public domain is of paramount concern to Apple PR. The risk of some damaging mails being found among the data is also there.

    I have yet to see a news piece of this subject that doesn't mention Apple and I am sure that that is a situation Apple is very worried about in its PR department which must be a hive of activity right now.

    You only have to dip into the comments sections of press outlets to gauge opinion.


    You seem to think Apple’s early response implies Apple is ‘worried’ about something.  It’s more reasonable to conclude that Apple made an early response simply due to the fact the Paradise Papers are being looked at by so many news outlets; a timely response provides Apple with boilerplate it can point to each time some reporter comes calling, rather than tediously responding individually to each in succession.
    See also Occam’s Razor.
    Yes. I think Apple is worried. Very worried. The 'early response' you speak of is pure PR.

    Apple rarely discusses these delicate issues precisely because they don't transmit well into the public domain, however well you present them.

    It's far easier to defend why you have been faithful to your wife than why you haven't. Unless of course you claimed you were but in reality you weren't.

    They were 'forced' to make a statement after the original EU investigation results and again with the Paradise Papers. Damage control. PR.

    This time they went on the defensive and the result has done them few favours IMO.

    The New York Times took just a few very short paragraphs to take a stab at Tim Cook's comments to a US committee a few years ago investigating Apple's tax practices where he blustered (probably for dramatic effect) that Apple didn't have its cash stashed away on a Caribbean island. The Times then quickly reminds us that that was actually true, before casually throwing in a reference to a European island, and with one flash of the pen, the damage is done.

    Apple should know better. This time around you have more than 100 of the world's top investigative journalism outlets perusing an almost endless flow of sensitive data. That is reason enough to be worried.

    Lines like 'we pay more taxes than anyone else' may be fine for your mother but not for these guys. I can guarantee you that that line will be lit up in Christmas lights and then shot down in flames if even so much of an inkling of doubt emerges from the papers.

    Do we have that inkling? Yes, we do. The EU investigation. Now, that has to stand up to inspection and it will be a while before we know the results but it's there. Just like the Paradise Papers are here now and it will also take a while to join the dots.

    In the meantime, only Apple and its lawyers know what is possibly among those documents and how 'clean' they are. And I am referring to both the legal and moral aspects here because some groups will attack one aspect while others will go for the other.

    Apple knows this will not blow over. It will come back time after time until everything has been laid bare.

    The problem is people aren't interested in reasons why they did what they did or didn't do. They are swayed by how the information is presented and Apple has little control over that and if they get caught lobbying it would be worse.

    People remember Star Wars for the bad guys, not the good guys. An investigative article throwing flowers at Apple has little chance of breaking ground but a splash of wrongdoing is all it takes for snowballs to start growing.


    Less FUD, more facts.
    The facts are there was a EU investigation and Apple wasn't shown in good light.

    The facts are that there was a US enquiry and Apple wasn't shown in good light.

    The facts are the Paradise Papers are being poured over by hundreds of the world's top investigative journalists and even after just scratching the surface are not showing Apple in good light.

    The facts are Tim Cook made statements after all three incidences arose. Those statements are receiving attention and it's not the kind of attention Apple likes to have.

    I could go on but those are the facts with no FUD anywhere to be seen.

    Nobody has accused Apple of anything except the EU but it's not accusations that matter. It's being mentioned in the same breath as the Paradise Papers. That in itself is reason enough for concern at Apple.
    You just outlined what FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) is, and laid it on thick.
    Let me know when Apple has done something illegal, because so far, I'm not seeing that.
    Perhaps you aren't seeing the forest for the trees. The whole point of what I commented on regarding PR, has nothing to do with Apple actually doing anything illegal or not but simply having these issues on the table in the first place and how the wider public interprets them. That interpretation will largely be based on how the information is presented, NOT on whether there is any actual wrongdoing or not. If you call that FUD, fine, but don't attribute it to me 

    These are not issues I have put forward. They are issues that the US government, the EU and now the Paradise Papers have put forward and Apple has chosen to respond to.

    Although you believe otherwise, I believe it is a PR nightmare for all of the reasons I have already mentioned.

    This AI article is just one of hundreds popping up all over the globe. Each one will have offspring as more details emerge. It's logical that people have an interest. Moreso as the Paradise Papers have an instant and negative backdrop. Something that attracts people and something that Apple, as one of the named parties, would of course want to disassociate itself from.

    That's where PR will be working overtime.


    A perfect example of a PR disaster is Twitter going to 280 words.

    What Apple is doing is just inside baseball stuff; average people's eyes glaze over from the complexity of it. 

    You are spreading FUD; that's obvious from your posts, but knock yourself out.

    I think it's letters rather than words in the case of Twitter.

    In the case of Apple, people's eyes don't glaze over at the complexity because they see none.

    Everything is bundled up into convenient little packages for the mass market. Those who wish to delve deeper can, but will have to wait for the information to surface.

    It is exactly that problem of having your name banded about with a negative backdrop that is of concern for the PR people.

    People associate the Paradise Papers with complex, sinister efforts to hide fiscal responsibility, money, associations etc. Many have no desire to delve deeper than that superficial understanding.

    You can imagine the problems caused by having your name tied to the leak and having it pumped out through the media and cycled on news runs.

    Those people who are not interested in the complexity just put two and two together: Paradise Papers + Apple = Bad. 

    Of course the same applies to everyone else mentioned in the leak for these people. 




    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 79 of 82
    Maybe they were really talking about "Parrot Ice" papers and the dictation software made some assumptions.
  • Reply 80 of 82
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,458member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    fred1 said:
    So much EU bashing, and why?  Do you live in the EU? (Have you ever even been to an EU country?). Did you say that the US shouldn’t exist when Congress was supposedly investigating where Aplle stashes its profits?

    These EU officials are doing their job: enforcing the tax laws. Why does this seem so strange to you?
    Yes. You are right. I commented in another thread on exactly what the commissioner has said now someone tried to claim I was using 'weasel' words. LOL.

    All of this is being investigated as we speak. The amount of documents in this leak is vast, so vast that the work will take time to be carried out. We have already seen some prickly documents.

    While all the information is verified and cross referenced, the commissioners and ministers of member states will formerly require the individuals and companies to 'fill in any gaps' on previous declarations in the cases of open investigations. 

    We will see, much further down the line, just how legal the actions of those involved is, but in the case of Apple they have taken a battering in public opinion through the revelations in the press. That is precisely why Apple made a statement in the first place.

    Some people seem to be having trouble accepting this, others just hate the EU.

    I would be worried if the EU didn't do anything. You can be sure the US is also perusing the documents too.

    Trying to make out this hasn't been a PR nightmare is frankly difficult to understand.

    Actually I can guess why people in this forum think that this is NOT a PR nightmare, but you think otherwise. I got time to read only Apple's statement on this issue and I must add - it looked fairly reasonable to me (with my limited knowledge on this topic of taxation of international companies like Apple). I have NOT gone through even a SINGLE article yet on Paradise papers, what information was leaked into public domain etc. Since I have not gone through the actual story but has read only Apple's version, I have not commented on this thread yet. I can easily imagine others in this forum NOT having gone through even a single article on Paradise papers but only Apple's statement. And still comment on the topic based on their prior wealth of knowledge on taxation (which I don't have). It could be possible that only you and very few others have gone through the story from both sides while commenting.
    That is definitely feasible. However, the reality is there for all to see.

    If Apple has made a formal statement mere hours after this went public it should be clear that this is a major issue.

    The Paradise Papers have been handed over to over 100 respected news outlets for study and documentary style reports have already been aired. 

    It doesn't even matter if Apple is innocent of course. The fact that documents like the questionnaire, however normal they may be among multinationals, have reached the public domain is of paramount concern to Apple PR. The risk of some damaging mails being found among the data is also there.

    I have yet to see a news piece of this subject that doesn't mention Apple and I am sure that that is a situation Apple is very worried about in its PR department which must be a hive of activity right now.

    You only have to dip into the comments sections of press outlets to gauge opinion.


    You seem to think Apple’s early response implies Apple is ‘worried’ about something.  It’s more reasonable to conclude that Apple made an early response simply due to the fact the Paradise Papers are being looked at by so many news outlets; a timely response provides Apple with boilerplate it can point to each time some reporter comes calling, rather than tediously responding individually to each in succession.
    See also Occam’s Razor.
    Yes. I think Apple is worried. Very worried. The 'early response' you speak of is pure PR.

    Apple rarely discusses these delicate issues precisely because they don't transmit well into the public domain, however well you present them.

    It's far easier to defend why you have been faithful to your wife than why you haven't. Unless of course you claimed you were but in reality you weren't.

    They were 'forced' to make a statement after the original EU investigation results and again with the Paradise Papers. Damage control. PR.

    This time they went on the defensive and the result has done them few favours IMO.

    The New York Times took just a few very short paragraphs to take a stab at Tim Cook's comments to a US committee a few years ago investigating Apple's tax practices where he blustered (probably for dramatic effect) that Apple didn't have its cash stashed away on a Caribbean island. The Times then quickly reminds us that that was actually true, before casually throwing in a reference to a European island, and with one flash of the pen, the damage is done.

    Apple should know better. This time around you have more than 100 of the world's top investigative journalism outlets perusing an almost endless flow of sensitive data. That is reason enough to be worried.

    Lines like 'we pay more taxes than anyone else' may be fine for your mother but not for these guys. I can guarantee you that that line will be lit up in Christmas lights and then shot down in flames if even so much of an inkling of doubt emerges from the papers.

    Do we have that inkling? Yes, we do. The EU investigation. Now, that has to stand up to inspection and it will be a while before we know the results but it's there. Just like the Paradise Papers are here now and it will also take a while to join the dots.

    In the meantime, only Apple and its lawyers know what is possibly among those documents and how 'clean' they are. And I am referring to both the legal and moral aspects here because some groups will attack one aspect while others will go for the other.

    Apple knows this will not blow over. It will come back time after time until everything has been laid bare.

    The problem is people aren't interested in reasons why they did what they did or didn't do. They are swayed by how the information is presented and Apple has little control over that and if they get caught lobbying it would be worse.

    People remember Star Wars for the bad guys, not the good guys. An investigative article throwing flowers at Apple has little chance of breaking ground but a splash of wrongdoing is all it takes for snowballs to start growing.


    Less FUD, more facts.
    The facts are there was a EU investigation and Apple wasn't shown in good light.

    The facts are that there was a US enquiry and Apple wasn't shown in good light.

    The facts are the Paradise Papers are being poured over by hundreds of the world's top investigative journalists and even after just scratching the surface are not showing Apple in good light.

    The facts are Tim Cook made statements after all three incidences arose. Those statements are receiving attention and it's not the kind of attention Apple likes to have.

    I could go on but those are the facts with no FUD anywhere to be seen.

    Nobody has accused Apple of anything except the EU but it's not accusations that matter. It's being mentioned in the same breath as the Paradise Papers. That in itself is reason enough for concern at Apple.
    You just outlined what FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) is, and laid it on thick.
    Let me know when Apple has done something illegal, because so far, I'm not seeing that.
    Perhaps you aren't seeing the forest for the trees. The whole point of what I commented on regarding PR, has nothing to do with Apple actually doing anything illegal or not but simply having these issues on the table in the first place and how the wider public interprets them. That interpretation will largely be based on how the information is presented, NOT on whether there is any actual wrongdoing or not. If you call that FUD, fine, but don't attribute it to me 

    These are not issues I have put forward. They are issues that the US government, the EU and now the Paradise Papers have put forward and Apple has chosen to respond to.

    Although you believe otherwise, I believe it is a PR nightmare for all of the reasons I have already mentioned.

    This AI article is just one of hundreds popping up all over the globe. Each one will have offspring as more details emerge. It's logical that people have an interest. Moreso as the Paradise Papers have an instant and negative backdrop. Something that attracts people and something that Apple, as one of the named parties, would of course want to disassociate itself from.

    That's where PR will be working overtime.


    A perfect example of a PR disaster is Twitter going to 280 words.

    What Apple is doing is just inside baseball stuff; average people's eyes glaze over from the complexity of it. 

    You are spreading FUD; that's obvious from your posts, but knock yourself out.

    I think it's letters rather than words in the case of Twitter.

    In the case of Apple, people's eyes don't glaze over at the complexity because they see none.

    Everything is bundled up into convenient little packages for the mass market. Those who wish to delve deeper can, but will have to wait for the information to surface.

    It is exactly that problem of having your name banded about with a negative backdrop that is of concern for the PR people.

    People associate the Paradise Papers with complex, sinister efforts to hide fiscal responsibility, money, associations etc. Many have no desire to delve deeper than that superficial understanding.

    You can imagine the problems caused by having your name tied to the leak and having it pumped out through the media and cycled on news runs.

    Those people who are not interested in the complexity just put two and two together: Paradise Papers + Apple = Bad. 

    Of course the same applies to everyone else mentioned in the leak for these people. 




    The buzz of this is long gone; old news. Nobody is following this today but a few like yourself. 

    You will need to find another pastime.

    Big news in the U.S. is Louis C.K. acknowledging that he is guilty of sexual assault.
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