Which one do you have? One of the issues with the MBP (and laptops) has often been noise that gets picked up easily in recordings, podcasts, etc.
Late 2016 15" 2.9 i7 460. In the past I wouldn't have even considered having a computer in the same room as the mics. With this one I might. And with 2TB of the world's fastest solid-state storage on board, I can record for hours without external storage.
Thanks for that. So, either they improved the cooling, or maybe it's just less thermal output of this generation's chips? When I saw Mike's eGPU tests with dB for the laptop and the various eGPU cases, I did find it a bit odd that rest and full-load weren't so different and both less than any of the eGPU cases. On the the other hand, I suppose something like a cylinder Mac Pro is far more quiet.
Quiet is one of my top priorities... which is an issue with the whole eGPU thing, unless it's relatively easy to only use it when needed. (I typically don't need high-powered GPU when I need quiet, fortunately.)
Which one do you have? One of the issues with the MBP (and laptops) has often been noise that gets picked up easily in recordings, podcasts, etc.
Late 2016 15" 2.9 i7 460. In the past I wouldn't have even considered having a computer in the same room as the mics. With this one I might. And with 2TB of the world's fastest solid-state storage on board, I can record for hours without external storage.
Thanks for that. So, either they improved the cooling, or maybe it's just less thermal output of this generation's chips? When I saw Mike's eGPU tests with dB for the laptop and the various eGPU cases, I did find it a bit odd that rest and full-load weren't so different and both less than any of the eGPU cases. On the the other hand, I suppose something like a cylinder Mac Pro is far more quiet.
Quiet is one of my top priorities... which is an issue with the whole eGPU thing, unless it's relatively easy to only use it when needed. (I typically don't need high-powered GPU when I need quiet, fortunately.)
I haven't tried to force this thing into a state of maximum fan noise, so my comments are based entirely on my observations under my particular typical conditions. My uses of it haven't raised any noise concerns in the year I've had it, but it's possible that what's "typical" for me is different than the demands you or anyone else would place on it.
Is there a test I can apply to force it into thinking hard enough to really work the fan(s)? If so I'd be happy to run it and share the results.
Which one do you have? One of the issues with the MBP (and laptops) has often been noise that gets picked up easily in recordings, podcasts, etc.
Late 2016 15" 2.9 i7 460. In the past I wouldn't have even considered having a computer in the same room as the mics. With this one I might. And with 2TB of the world's fastest solid-state storage on board, I can record for hours without external storage.
Thanks for that. So, either they improved the cooling, or maybe it's just less thermal output of this generation's chips? When I saw Mike's eGPU tests with dB for the laptop and the various eGPU cases, I did find it a bit odd that rest and full-load weren't so different and both less than any of the eGPU cases. On the the other hand, I suppose something like a cylinder Mac Pro is far more quiet.
Quiet is one of my top priorities... which is an issue with the whole eGPU thing, unless it's relatively easy to only use it when needed. (I typically don't need high-powered GPU when I need quiet, fortunately.)
Side note: The cylinder is very quiet, but unlike my laptop I have heard it grunt a little when run hard. In the three+ years we've had the thing I've only heard the fan maybe five or six times, so it's really not an issue. Then again, the fan on the Pro Tools HDX card is plainly audible, so maybe low-but-audible noise from the Mac is being masked! I don't think so, but it's possible. Either way, I can't imagine the fan spinning up while tracking just a handful of mics. The only times I've heard it were during huge file transfers or transcoding video. (Speaking of which, file operations with the cylinder are WICKED fast! Activities that took several minutes with our cheese grater finish in a few seconds with the cylinder.)
lorin schultz said: I haven't tried to force this thing into a state of maximum fan noise, so my comments are based entirely on my observations under my particular typical conditions. My uses of it haven't raised any noise concerns in the year I've had it, but it's possible that what's "typical" for me is different than the demands you or anyone else would place on it.
Is there a test I can apply to force it into thinking hard enough to really work the fan(s)? If so I'd be happy to run it and share the results.
One common task that typically pushes them a bit is some kind of video encoding. I'm not sure if you do any of that or what apps you use. For example, encoding a ScreenFlow project to YouTube, or converting a video format with HandBrake, etc.
lorin schultz said: Side note: The cylinder is very quiet, but unlike my laptop I have heard it grunt a little when run hard. In the three+ years we've had the thing I've only heard the fan maybe five or six times, so it's really not an issue. Then again, the fan on the Pro Tools HDX card is plainly audible, so maybe low-but-audible noise from the Mac is being masked! I don't think so, but it's possible. Either way, I can't imagine the fan spinning up while tracking just a handful of mics. The only times I've heard it were during huge file transfers or transcoding video. (Speaking of which, file operations with the cylinder are WICKED fast! Activities that took several minutes with our cheese grater finish in a few seconds with the cylinder.)
Yea, those are the two I'm trying to narrow down between if I can't wait on Apple... a MBP or a cylinder Mac Pro. But, as you've read in my other posts, I'm not real happy with aspects of the new MBPs, and I'm a bit afraid to buy a 2013 machine as while the price has come down, it's still a lot of $ if the longevity isn't there. I suppose a 2015 MBP could work out, as Mike's tests show about 80% performance for an eGPU via TB2, which I could probably live with.
I'm trying to hold out to see what happens with the next Mac Pro, or even possibly the Mini. I seem to recall Minis being quite quiet as well unless really pushed, plus it's easier to locate them further away. While the previous Mini wouldn't be a possibility, if the next Mini has TB3, combining it with an eGPU *might* be a consideration, depending on what Apple does with it.
Which one do you have? One of the issues with the MBP (and laptops) has often been noise that gets picked up easily in recordings, podcasts, etc.
Late 2016 15" 2.9 i7 460. In the past I wouldn't have even considered having a computer in the same room as the mics. With this one I might. And with 2TB of the world's fastest solid-state storage on board, I can record for hours without external storage.
For the record, my podcast appearances both here and on my own are with a Blue Snowball, either a 2016 or 2017 MacBook Pro, and the eGPU running -- but not under any serious load.
cgWerks said: [...] I seem to recall Minis being quite quiet as well unless really pushed
I have the most recent version (2014?) i7 mini in the living room that I use for ripping, transcoding, and feeding local content to the Apple TVs. When it's operating as a server I'd never know it's there. When it's transcoding, it makes its presence known. The "character" of the fan noise is much less objectionable than typical computer noise, thanks to the effort Apple put into "shaping" the spectrum of the noise it produces, but it's clearly audible. I wouldn't want it in the room with the mics when the fan spins up. But again, it's extremely unlikely that a podcast recording session would put enough stress on it to make it yell.
I can appreciate that Apple is balancing performance against operation limitations (such as heat) but still think that other than the low-end integrated graphics used for MacBooks, they're on average behind the curve of other manufacturers.
In all my years of Mac'ing with a notebook, I don't ever remember hearing the fans. Maybe I'm not that demanding. It's been a very long time since using a PC laptop so I don't recall if I heard any fans with them. One of my older minis (2007) did have a noisy fan when watching video. Otherwise it was silent.
The irony is that current MacBooks have keyboards noise than the fans. I was considering upgrading from my 12" MB to an current MBP but decided against that until the keyboarded gets quieter. Or I lose my hearing.
Mike Wuerthele said: For the record, my podcast appearances both here and on my own are with a Blue Snowball, either a 2016 or 2017 MacBook Pro, and the eGPU running -- but not under any serious load.
Thanks for that input, Mike. Wow, even with a condenser mic. Do you use any kind of hardware noise gate or software? That said, I haven't been paying attention to that aspect of your audio, but it certainly isn't that noticeable or distracting if it is there. (i.e.: some podcasts have noticeably bad audio for one reason or another.)
I'm also dealing with an ATR-2500 (condenser) because I don't want the mic on a boom in front of my face (between me and the computer)... but I suppose I could get an ATR-2100 (dynamic) or something to solve that problem if it doesn't interfere with my ability to see/read my display.
lorin schultz said: I have the most recent version (2014?) i7 mini in the living room that I use for ripping, transcoding, and feeding local content to the Apple TVs. When it's operating as a server I'd never know it's there. When it's transcoding, it makes its presence known. The "character" of the fan noise is much less objectionable than typical computer noise, thanks to the effort Apple put into "shaping" the spectrum of the noise it produces, but it's clearly audible. I wouldn't want it in the room with the mics when the fan spins up. But again, it's extremely unlikely that a podcast recording session would put enough stress on it to make it yell.
Yea, I had a Mini for a while as well, but I guess it was while I was in grad-school, so I didn't have much time for anything but writing papers and writing blog posts and stuff like that. But, you're right that I guess the few times I transcoded a video, there was noise but it wasn't as shrill or something. (The rest of my Mini experience where dozens of them we had in rack cabinets in a server room where you couldn't hear them if you tried!)
You're also right that recording audio isn't going to hardly be noticeable to the machine any more. I have to remember how much % of computers were taken up by things in the past compared to now. Most of the time, I wouldn't be pushing the computer too hard when I need it to be quiet. That said, I can think of exceptions... like if I decide to do some tutorial videos of 3D work or CAD... then I'd be running that app, and something like ScreenFlow, which might push it into the unhappy place. Or, say you're recording some video game play for a YouTube channel. I don't think full screen recording pushes my machine too hard that I've noticed, but that combined with other stuff might.
For the most part, though, I can separate the fan noise stuff from the need for recording silence. But, fan noise in general bugs me too. I'm selling a nice ART amp/studio-monitor setup because the darn fan in the amp drives me nuts. (And I don't need it's power capabilities for what I'm doing in my office ... I originally bought it for keyboard/guitar work.)
I can appreciate that Apple is balancing performance against operation limitations (such as heat) but still think that other than the low-end integrated graphics used for MacBooks, they're on average behind the curve of other manufacturers.
In all my years of Mac'ing with a notebook, I don't ever remember hearing the fans. Maybe I'm not that demanding. It's been a very long time since using a PC laptop so I don't recall if I heard any fans with them. One of my older minis (2007) did have a noisy fan when watching video. Otherwise it was silent.
The irony is that current MacBooks have keyboards noise than the fans. I was considering upgrading from my 12" MB to an current MBP but decided against that until the keyboarded gets quieter. Or I lose my hearing.
I think that's accurate, though they are also more compact and elegant. Tradeoffs. That's why I'm excited about eGPUs. What I'm wavering on is whether a laptop is too much tradeoff overall, and I just need to go back to laptop/desktop combo.
re: keyboard - For sure. Fortunately, I'd have it docked most of the time when the keyboard noise would matter (audio recording), so my concern is more over reliability, and then whether I'd ever get used to it and like it for typing.
cgWerks said: [...] Do you use any kind of hardware noise gate or software? That said, I haven't been paying attention to that aspect of your audio, but it certainly isn't that noticeable or distracting if it is there. (i.e.: some podcasts have noticeably bad audio for one reason or another.)
I generally encourage people NOT to use noise suppression software unless they're prepared to pay for good stuff. Anything other than Cedar or Izotope invariably does more harm than good. Gates are the worst.
People tend not to notice steady-state noise after a few seconds. Our brains tune it out. We definitely DO notice when that noise rises and falls in level or cuts in and out. That means that most noise reduction software actually makes the net result worse: it takes something that we don't notice and turns it into something we do.
Go rent an old movie. If the studio hasn't screwed around with it there will be a steady hiss throughout. After only a few seconds of listening to the dialog you won't notice it anymore. Now watch the same movie on TV, where the broadcaster has applied heavy dynamic range compression. Every time there's a lull in the dialog the level of the background noise will rise and you'll notice it. If left unprocessed, you wouldn't.
Then grab the DVD or iTunes release of "A Charlie Brown Christmas." Somebody decided the hiss needed to be "fixed" and applied a gate with a slow attack. During Linus' iconic reading in the auditorium the reverb tails clamp off between sentences. Whenever characters are talking there's hiss, but as soon as they stop, so does the hiss. It's really distracting. It's the contrast that makes it really noticeable.
"Good" noise suppression software can reduce the level of the hiss without introducing obvious changes, but it's expensive. The affordable stuff pumps and breathes and just draws attention to itself. It's better to just leave the noise.
cgWerks said: [...] Most of the time, I wouldn't be pushing the computer too hard when I need it to be quiet. That said, I can think of exceptions... like if I decide to do some tutorial videos of 3D work or CAD... then I'd be running that app, and something like ScreenFlow, which might push it into the unhappy place. Or, say you're recording some video game play for a YouTube channel. I don't think full screen recording pushes my machine too hard that I've noticed, but that combined with other stuff might.
Mike Wuerthele said: For the record, my podcast appearances both here and on my own are with a Blue Snowball, either a 2016 or 2017 MacBook Pro, and the eGPU running -- but not under any serious load.
Thanks for that input, Mike. Wow, even with a condenser mic. Do you use any kind of hardware noise gate or software? That said, I haven't been paying attention to that aspect of your audio, but it certainly isn't that noticeable or distracting if it is there. (i.e.: some podcasts have noticeably bad audio for one reason or another.)
I'm also dealing with an ATR-2500 (condenser) because I don't want the mic on a boom in front of my face (between me and the computer)... but I suppose I could get an ATR-2100 (dynamic) or something to solve that problem if it doesn't interfere with my ability to see/read my display.
No gate, no software manipulation other than some gap and interruption editing.
Doesn't hurt that I've been podcasting for about a decade, and have '80s radio experience. That and clear-speaking because of really crappy Navy sound-powered communication circuits.
Anyway, back on topic. I'll be doing the same sound measurements with this one too.
lorin schultz said: I generally encourage people NOT to use noise suppression software unless they're prepared to pay for good stuff. Anything other than Cedar or Izotope invariably does more harm than good. Gates are the worst.
Yea, that has been my experience playing with audio software too (part of it might be that I haven't found the right settings). But, a number of people in the 'how to podcast' space have excellent audio and several of them use hardware noise elimination (I think gates). They probably have to have them setup just right as well, but I think those settings are known within the community. On the software side, I've had really great results post-processing through Auphonic. Not only does it do some noise elimination, but does great work in terms of leveling to standards.
Mike Wuerthele said: No gate, no software manipulation other than some gap and interruption editing.
Doesn't hurt that I've been podcasting for about a decade, and have '80s radio experience. That and clear-speaking because of really crappy Navy sound-powered communication circuits.
Anyway, back on topic. I'll be doing the same sound measurements with this one too.
Wow again... I guess good technique and good environment (if you have that) count for a lot. And, I'm glad you do sound measurements, as that's important to know for fussy folks like me.
looking at this in more detail it strikes me as a fail.
Is it so hard to look at what Mantiz managed and simply replicate that only quieter or a built in GPU?
45W PD isn't enough for anyone needing a GPU because likely you're still pushing the CPU so your battery will be running down.
There are no ports so you probably still would want a USB-C or TB3 dock...which means two connections rather than one. Preferably something that provides 85W of PD.
It's fairly expensive but you can trade that against the size. One the other hand, the fact that the GPU is built in means it has a much more limited useful life than a Mantiz so that's puts it further in the negative zone. And it's really not terribly small for what it is.
looking at this in more detail it strikes me as a fail.
Is it so hard to look at what Mantiz managed and simply replicate that only quieter or a built in GPU?
45W PD isn't enough for anyone needing a GPU because likely you're still pushing the CPU so your battery will be running down.
There are no ports so you probably still would want a USB-C or TB3 dock...which means two connections rather than one. Preferably something that provides 85W of PD.
It's fairly expensive but you can trade that against the size. One the other hand, the fact that the GPU is built in means it has a much more limited useful life than a Mantiz so that's puts it further in the negative zone. And it's really not terribly small for what it is.
Where this will probably sink or swim is the portability and acoustics of it. The Mantiz box, or the Sonnet box at the core of Apple's Developer's kit aren't exactly small and the Apple box in that particular kit is only 60W -- but there is an 87W one now.
Comments
When I saw Mike's eGPU tests with dB for the laptop and the various eGPU cases, I did find it a bit odd that rest and full-load weren't so different and both less than any of the eGPU cases. On the the other hand, I suppose something like a cylinder Mac Pro is far more quiet.
Quiet is one of my top priorities... which is an issue with the whole eGPU thing, unless it's relatively easy to only use it when needed. (I typically don't need high-powered GPU when I need quiet, fortunately.)
Is there a test I can apply to force it into thinking hard enough to really work the fan(s)? If so I'd be happy to run it and share the results.
Side note: The cylinder is very quiet, but unlike my laptop I have heard it grunt a little when run hard. In the three+ years we've had the thing I've only heard the fan maybe five or six times, so it's really not an issue. Then again, the fan on the Pro Tools HDX card is plainly audible, so maybe low-but-audible noise from the Mac is being masked! I don't think so, but it's possible. Either way, I can't imagine the fan spinning up while tracking just a handful of mics. The only times I've heard it were during huge file transfers or transcoding video. (Speaking of which, file operations with the cylinder are WICKED fast! Activities that took several minutes with our cheese grater finish in a few seconds with the cylinder.)
You could also run a benchmark like Cinebench: https://www.maxon.net/en/products/cinebench/
I'm trying to hold out to see what happens with the next Mac Pro, or even possibly the Mini. I seem to recall Minis being quite quiet as well unless really pushed, plus it's easier to locate them further away. While the previous Mini wouldn't be a possibility, if the next Mini has TB3, combining it with an eGPU *might* be a consideration, depending on what Apple does with it.
In all my years of Mac'ing with a notebook, I don't ever remember hearing the fans. Maybe I'm not that demanding. It's been a very long time since using a PC laptop so I don't recall if I heard any fans with them. One of my older minis (2007) did have a noisy fan when watching video. Otherwise it was silent.
The irony is that current MacBooks have keyboards noise than the fans. I was considering upgrading from my 12" MB to an current MBP but decided against that until the keyboarded gets quieter. Or I lose my hearing.
I'm also dealing with an ATR-2500 (condenser) because I don't want the mic on a boom in front of my face (between me and the computer)... but I suppose I could get an ATR-2100 (dynamic) or something to solve that problem if it doesn't interfere with my ability to see/read my display.
Yea, I had a Mini for a while as well, but I guess it was while I was in grad-school, so I didn't have much time for anything but writing papers and writing blog posts and stuff like that. But, you're right that I guess the few times I transcoded a video, there was noise but it wasn't as shrill or something. (The rest of my Mini experience where dozens of them we had in rack cabinets in a server room where you couldn't hear them if you tried!)
You're also right that recording audio isn't going to hardly be noticeable to the machine any more. I have to remember how much % of computers were taken up by things in the past compared to now. Most of the time, I wouldn't be pushing the computer too hard when I need it to be quiet. That said, I can think of exceptions... like if I decide to do some tutorial videos of 3D work or CAD... then I'd be running that app, and something like ScreenFlow, which might push it into the unhappy place.
For the most part, though, I can separate the fan noise stuff from the need for recording silence. But, fan noise in general bugs me too. I'm selling a nice ART amp/studio-monitor setup because the darn fan in the amp drives me nuts.
I think that's accurate, though they are also more compact and elegant. Tradeoffs. That's why I'm excited about eGPUs. What I'm wavering on is whether a laptop is too much tradeoff overall, and I just need to go back to laptop/desktop combo.
re: keyboard - For sure. Fortunately, I'd have it docked most of the time when the keyboard noise would matter (audio recording), so my concern is more over reliability, and then whether I'd ever get used to it and like it for typing.
People tend not to notice steady-state noise after a few seconds. Our brains tune it out. We definitely DO notice when that noise rises and falls in level or cuts in and out. That means that most noise reduction software actually makes the net result worse: it takes something that we don't notice and turns it into something we do.
Go rent an old movie. If the studio hasn't screwed around with it there will be a steady hiss throughout. After only a few seconds of listening to the dialog you won't notice it anymore. Now watch the same movie on TV, where the broadcaster has applied heavy dynamic range compression. Every time there's a lull in the dialog the level of the background noise will rise and you'll notice it. If left unprocessed, you wouldn't.
Then grab the DVD or iTunes release of "A Charlie Brown Christmas." Somebody decided the hiss needed to be "fixed" and applied a gate with a slow attack. During Linus' iconic reading in the auditorium the reverb tails clamp off between sentences. Whenever characters are talking there's hiss, but as soon as they stop, so does the hiss. It's really distracting. It's the contrast that makes it really noticeable.
"Good" noise suppression software can reduce the level of the hiss without introducing obvious changes, but it's expensive. The affordable stuff pumps and breathes and just draws attention to itself. It's better to just leave the noise.
Good point. You're probably right.
Anyway, back on topic. I'll be doing the same sound measurements with this one too.
Wow again... I guess good technique and good environment (if you have that) count for a lot.
And, I'm glad you do sound measurements, as that's important to know for fussy folks like me.
Is it so hard to look at what Mantiz managed and simply replicate that only quieter or a built in GPU?
45W PD isn't enough for anyone needing a GPU because likely you're still pushing the CPU so your battery will be running down.
There are no ports so you probably still would want a USB-C or TB3 dock...which means two connections rather than one. Preferably something that provides 85W of PD.
It's fairly expensive but you can trade that against the size. One the other hand, the fact that the GPU is built in means it has a much more limited useful life than a Mantiz so that's puts it further in the negative zone. And it's really not terribly small for what it is.
We'll see how it goes when it gets here.