Ireland says Apple to start paying $15.4B in back taxes in Q1 2018

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 40
    The Commission has accused Ireland of reverse engineering taxes on the fly to keep Apple happy.

    What does that even mean?  It's folksy and sounds clever, but I'm sure it completely misrepresents what the Commission actually accused Ireland of.
  • Reply 22 of 40
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,241member
    The Commission has accused Ireland of reverse engineering taxes on the fly to keep Apple happy.

    What does that even mean?  It's folksy and sounds clever, but I'm sure it completely misrepresents what the Commission actually accused Ireland of.
    It has accused Ireland of giving State aid to Apple. Corporation Tax policy isnt supposed to be defined by the EU.  ( it is not a "competancy").

    I could see this causing a trade war with the US, actually. 
    edited December 2017
  • Reply 23 of 40
    asdasd said:
    The Commission has accused Ireland of reverse engineering taxes on the fly to keep Apple happy.

    What does that even mean?  It's folksy and sounds clever, but I'm sure it completely misrepresents what the Commission actually accused Ireland of.
    It has accused Ireland of giving State aid to Apple. Corporation Tax policy isnt supposed to be defined by the EU.  ( it is not a "competancy").

    I could see this causing a trade war with the US, actually. 
    I got that, but what does "reverse engineering taxes on the fly" refer to?  Reverse engineering refers to determining how something works without being able to see the actual mechanism.  How on Earth does that relate to tax policy?  I'm pretty sure Apple and Ireland have complete information about the tax laws and regulations of every nation.  No "reverse engineering" required.  Perhaps the word the author was looking for was "retroactive"?  Who knows.
    philboogie
  • Reply 24 of 40
    dewme said:

    This whole deal makes the Irish financial leaders involved with this deal look incredibly inept and stupid. But now it's Apple that will potentially have to pay the EU for Ireland's mistakes and ineptitude. 
    Except Apple is only having to pay the taxes they should have been assessed in the first place.  Irish leaders weren't inept and stupid, they were greedy and manipulative.  They got millions in tax dollars and the establishment of an Apple subsidiary in Ireland in exchange for illegally sheltering billions of dollars in taxes from other countries.  They knew good and well exactly what they were doing, and Apple was complicit in their shenanigans.
    edited December 2017
  • Reply 25 of 40
    maestro64maestro64 Posts: 4,454member
    rob53 said:
    Tired of repeatedly hearing Apple only paid 0.005% in taxes. Is that really 0.005% or just 0.005? I’d like to see the official Apple tax statement not the voodoo economics generated by the Commission. We all know corporate taxes are never the full amount because they are offset by operating costs. 


    I will not show you the actual numbers since their story line would not be as impactful, when you see government throwing %'s around your neck hair should stand up. They hiding the real numbers so you have no idea what we talking about. What are the numerator and denominators in this case, Is the denominator all the incoming apple made world wide.

    These are not the actual numbers but explains what is going, the 0.005% comes from using Apple global profits not just what was sold in the EU, They pay Ireland 12.5% on the profits from the EU. The EU want a cut of the global profits, even though the US does not tax global profits until they come home. Now us has a new Tax law Apple can bring back most of the money and pay less taxes and if they keep doing it in the future that money will be off limits from the EU since it will be taxes in the US at higher rate than the EU. The same profits can not be taxed twice, is the general rule.

    http://money.cnn.com/2016/08/30/technology/apple-tax-ruling-numbers/index.html

    edited December 2017
  • Reply 26 of 40
    knowitallknowitall Posts: 1,182member
    Yes, but it takes an accountant to know if it’s legal or not. Which you’re not, so you don’t. 

    Also reading the balance statement doesn’t tell you if what they’re doing is ethical or not. If they have said that billions is not taxable then that sounds a lot like a deferral for future investment. Or did you think that data centers, retail stores (new and recently robbed), car test beds, specialist manufacturing equipment, write-offs from sapphire production … all comes from the Apple fairy?

    And as I said, I don’t have a problem with legal tax avoidance, because I don’t pay a penny more tax than I’m legally required to. 
    I wouldn’t put too much faith in what an accountant (or an other ‘specialist’) knows especially when ethics are in play.
    I also wouldn’t play down knowledge of someone who isn’t an official specialist.
    In this case a complaint I read is that the EU changed the rules effectively not allowing unfair competition no matter what the specific rules are. Very expensive legal specialists are hired to find loopholes in the law to reduce taxes for the companies they work for. Anything not explicitly forbidden is ethical in their view.
    Normal people and small(er) companies cannot afford this kind of service and that makes this kind of ‘tax avoidance’ unfair by definition. Also, because governments needs are a constant, other taxes will be even higher, which makes it completely amoral.
    ktappe
  • Reply 27 of 40
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    So, clickbait journalism at AI, this kind of shit is why I don't trust one media as a source until I've read 50 sources of various leanings saying the same thing.
  • Reply 28 of 40
    It’s a real shame that it took this act of tax blackmail by the EU for Apple to finally take their licensed IP out of Ireland and move it to the island of Jersey. They should’ve done that years ago, since they anticipated the eventual penalty arising its ugly head and had set aside money to be used for an eventual settlement.
  • Reply 29 of 40
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,241member
    78Bandit said:
    dewme said:

    This whole deal makes the Irish financial leaders involved with this deal look incredibly inept and stupid. But now it's Apple that will potentially have to pay the EU for Ireland's mistakes and ineptitude. 
    Except Apple is only having to pay the taxes they should have been assessed in the first place.  Irish leaders weren't inept and stupid, they were greedy and manipulative.  They got millions in tax dollars and the establishment of an Apple subsidiary in Ireland in exchange for illegally sheltering billions of dollars in taxes from other countries.  They knew good and well exactly what they were doing, and Apple was complicit in their shenanigans.
    And also a time machine to know that Apple was going to make billions of euro profits in the future way back in 1980. 
    philboogie
  • Reply 30 of 40
    The problem all the western democracies face isn't tax rates assessed to individuals and corporations -- it is the ability for individuals and corporations to AVOID paying taxes!
    edited December 2017
  • Reply 31 of 40
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 12,974member
    asdasd said:
    gatorguy said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    gatorguy said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    asdasd said:
    Well they are definitely paying the tax, but not to Ireland. 
    That’s the thing. They’re not. 

    If they win the appeal then the money goes back to the tax liabilities column on the balance sheet. 

    You are right though. The tax has to be paid somewhere. 
    Not according to Apple. They have $B tagged as not taxable by anyone, and $B more identified as not taxable by the US under any foreseeable circumstance. 
    Since you’re not a qualified accountant, I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here. 

    Like all companies, Apple avoids paying as much tax as it can. But when it has to pay it, it pays it. Just like Google :wink: 
    It doesn't take an accountant to read Apple's statements, nor pay attention to footnotes in their financials. 
    But of course some profit is non taxable, because tax isnt 100%. If Apple returns money to the US it will be taxed, unless the double taxation agreements stop this. 
    Huh? Tax is a percentage taken from 100% of taxable profit. 
  • Reply 32 of 40
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,241member
    asdasd said:
    gatorguy said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    gatorguy said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    asdasd said:
    Well they are definitely paying the tax, but not to Ireland. 
    That’s the thing. They’re not. 

    If they win the appeal then the money goes back to the tax liabilities column on the balance sheet. 

    You are right though. The tax has to be paid somewhere. 
    Not according to Apple. They have $B tagged as not taxable by anyone, and $B more identified as not taxable by the US under any foreseeable circumstance. 
    Since you’re not a qualified accountant, I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here. 

    Like all companies, Apple avoids paying as much tax as it can. But when it has to pay it, it pays it. Just like Google :wink: 
    It doesn't take an accountant to read Apple's statements, nor pay attention to footnotes in their financials. 
    But of course some profit is non taxable, because tax isnt 100%. If Apple returns money to the US it will be taxed, unless the double taxation agreements stop this. 
    Huh? Tax is a percentage taken from 100% of taxable profit. 
    And other tautologies. 
  • Reply 33 of 40
    croprcropr Posts: 905member
    dewme said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    Er … that  headline says Apple is starting to pay back the tax. The article says that Apple is paying into an escrow. 

    It looks to me as if Apple is paying into a fund in case it loses the appeal, which is not the same as actually paying the tax. 

    So which is it?


    Yeah, the headline is misleading and contradicts the article content. The headline should say that Apple will start to source money into an escrow account in case they lose their appeal, but only once the details for how the interest accrued on this vast sum of money should be handled. It would be punitive for Apple to lose the earning potential of such a vast sum of money that is just sitting there waiting on the case to be settled. This whole deal makes the Irish financial leaders involved with this deal look incredibly inept and stupid. But now it's Apple that will potentially have to pay the EU for Ireland's mistakes and ineptitude. 
    Apple has to pay the tax to Ireland, not to the EU (and Ireland does not has to transfer the money to the EU)
    gatorguy
  • Reply 34 of 40
    croprcropr Posts: 905member
    maestro64 said:
    rob53 said:
    Tired of repeatedly hearing Apple only paid 0.005% in taxes. Is that really 0.005% or just 0.005? I’d like to see the official Apple tax statement not the voodoo economics generated by the Commission. We all know corporate taxes are never the full amount because they are offset by operating costs. 


    I will not show you the actual numbers since their story line would not be as impactful, when you see government throwing %'s around your neck hair should stand up. They hiding the real numbers so you have no idea what we talking about. What are the numerator and denominators in this case, Is the denominator all the incoming apple made world wide.

    These are not the actual numbers but explains what is going, the 0.005% comes from using Apple global profits not just what was sold in the EU, They pay Ireland 12.5% on the profits from the EU. The EU want a cut of the global profits, even though the US does not tax global profits until they come home. Now us has a new Tax law Apple can bring back most of the money and pay less taxes and if they keep doing it in the future that money will be off limits from the EU since it will be taxes in the US at higher rate than the EU. The same profits can not be taxed twice, is the general rule.

    http://money.cnn.com/2016/08/30/technology/apple-tax-ruling-numbers/index.html

    Stick to the facts please.  The EU does not want a cut (where did you get that nonsense?), neither is the EU looking at the world wide revenues. 

    The EU wants that Apple pays 12.5% of the profits on the EU revenue to the Irish government, as any other company must pay 12.5% of its European profits.  The fact that Apple has an agreement with the Irish tax administration to consider a few billion Euros of its European profits as non taxable, and thereby reducing the actual tax rate to 0.5% is perceived by the EU commission as illegal state aid.  Whether this is correct or not is up to the European court to decide. 
    asdasd[Deleted User]
  • Reply 35 of 40
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,241member
    cropr said:
    maestro64 said:
    rob53 said:
    Tired of repeatedly hearing Apple only paid 0.005% in taxes. Is that really 0.005% or just 0.005? I’d like to see the official Apple tax statement not the voodoo economics generated by the Commission. We all know corporate taxes are never the full amount because they are offset by operating costs. 


    I will not show you the actual numbers since their story line would not be as impactful, when you see government throwing %'s around your neck hair should stand up. They hiding the real numbers so you have no idea what we talking about. What are the numerator and denominators in this case, Is the denominator all the incoming apple made world wide.

    These are not the actual numbers but explains what is going, the 0.005% comes from using Apple global profits not just what was sold in the EU, They pay Ireland 12.5% on the profits from the EU. The EU want a cut of the global profits, even though the US does not tax global profits until they come home. Now us has a new Tax law Apple can bring back most of the money and pay less taxes and if they keep doing it in the future that money will be off limits from the EU since it will be taxes in the US at higher rate than the EU. The same profits can not be taxed twice, is the general rule.

    http://money.cnn.com/2016/08/30/technology/apple-tax-ruling-numbers/index.html

    Stick to the facts please.  The EU does not want a cut (where did you get that nonsense?), neither is the EU looking at the world wide revenues. 

    The EU wants that Apple pays 12.5% of the profits on the EU revenue to the Irish government, as any other company must pay 12.5% of its European profits.  The fact that Apple has an agreement with the Irish tax administration to consider a few billion Euros of its European profits as non taxable, and thereby reducing the actual tax rate to 0.5% is perceived by the EU commission as illegal state aid.  Whether this is correct or not is up to the European court to decide. 
    That’s generally correct but I think Apple Ireland does get the worldwide revenues, not just the EU revenues. 
  • Reply 36 of 40
    maestro64maestro64 Posts: 4,454member
    cropr said:
    maestro64 said:
    rob53 said:
    Tired of repeatedly hearing Apple only paid 0.005% in taxes. Is that really 0.005% or just 0.005? I’d like to see the official Apple tax statement not the voodoo economics generated by the Commission. We all know corporate taxes are never the full amount because they are offset by operating costs. 


    I will not show you the actual numbers since their story line would not be as impactful, when you see government throwing %'s around your neck hair should stand up. They hiding the real numbers so you have no idea what we talking about. What are the numerator and denominators in this case, Is the denominator all the incoming apple made world wide.

    These are not the actual numbers but explains what is going, the 0.005% comes from using Apple global profits not just what was sold in the EU, They pay Ireland 12.5% on the profits from the EU. The EU want a cut of the global profits, even though the US does not tax global profits until they come home. Now us has a new Tax law Apple can bring back most of the money and pay less taxes and if they keep doing it in the future that money will be off limits from the EU since it will be taxes in the US at higher rate than the EU. The same profits can not be taxed twice, is the general rule.

    http://money.cnn.com/2016/08/30/technology/apple-tax-ruling-numbers/index.html

    Stick to the facts please.  The EU does not want a cut (where did you get that nonsense?), neither is the EU looking at the world wide revenues. 

    The EU wants that Apple pays 12.5% of the profits on the EU revenue to the Irish government, as any other company must pay 12.5% of its European profits.  The fact that Apple has an agreement with the Irish tax administration to consider a few billion Euros of its European profits as non taxable, and thereby reducing the actual tax rate to 0.5% is perceived by the EU commission as illegal state aid.  Whether this is correct or not is up to the European court to decide. 


    First I am not saying what Apple paid, since I am not going to go through their 10K's to figure it, unless you are calling Apple a liar and can provide other facts (maybe alternate facts) this is what Apple said:

    "Apple’s worldwide effective tax rate is 24.6 percent, higher than average for US multinationals. " I believe this is independent of what they pay the US since that number is lower 21% and there is no way they paying 24.6% if they are only paying Ireland 0.5% as you claim. So where did the 24% get paid it did not go to the US. Other governments got a cut as such Ireland can not tax it since it was taxes elsewhere under the general rule of tax once.

    https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2017/11/the-facts-about-apple-tax-payments/

    The issue the EU has,  they want Ireland to tax everything @ 12% Apple makes in all the world outside the US, the money which is funnel through the Ireland business entity. But Ireland only taxes funds which originate in the EU not outside and where Apple does not bring through its Ireland business. They park the money in the cayman islands and other places, http://fortune.com/2017/11/06/apple-tax-avoidance-jersey. This is not new they were doing this back in the 80's and 90's when they had profits.

    The 0.005% number which keeps getting reports come from the fact if you take what Apple paid Ireland and divide by world wide revenues. The EU is one claiming Apple is not paying enough and they are the one throwing that number around to make people think Apple is not paying taxes. As I said before Apples deal with Ireland dates back to the 80's which predate the authority which the EU now thinks it has. The Deal apple did with Ireland is no different than deal that US States do all the time to attract a business to their state. they some times give them a reduce tax or a tax holiday for 10 yrs. The EU does not like the fact Ireland struck a deal with Apple which only benefits Ireland.

    I know I am simplifying this, but it all comes down to the EU want more or Apples money and they had no part in the deal.

    The EU is only doing this since there has been talk about allowing Apple and hundreds of other US companies to bring the money home under a reduce tax rate. They know if all those Trillions (5T are some estimated) it will kill the EU economy since companies like Apple will not invest the money in the EU.

    I willing to trust Apple own statements, not a government who has ulterior motives and especial not the media who are so screwed up these days you have no idea what to believe from them.

    edited December 2017
  • Reply 37 of 40
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,055member
    maestro64 said:
    cropr said:
    maestro64 said:
    rob53 said:
    Tired of repeatedly hearing Apple only paid 0.005% in taxes. Is that really 0.005% or just 0.005? I’d like to see the official Apple tax statement not the voodoo economics generated by the Commission. We all know corporate taxes are never the full amount because they are offset by operating costs. 


    I will not show you the actual numbers since their story line would not be as impactful, when you see government throwing %'s around your neck hair should stand up. They hiding the real numbers so you have no idea what we talking about. What are the numerator and denominators in this case, Is the denominator all the incoming apple made world wide.

    These are not the actual numbers but explains what is going, the 0.005% comes from using Apple global profits not just what was sold in the EU, They pay Ireland 12.5% on the profits from the EU. The EU want a cut of the global profits, even though the US does not tax global profits until they come home. Now us has a new Tax law Apple can bring back most of the money and pay less taxes and if they keep doing it in the future that money will be off limits from the EU since it will be taxes in the US at higher rate than the EU. The same profits can not be taxed twice, is the general rule.

    http://money.cnn.com/2016/08/30/technology/apple-tax-ruling-numbers/index.html

    Stick to the facts please.  The EU does not want a cut (where did you get that nonsense?), neither is the EU looking at the world wide revenues. 

    The EU wants that Apple pays 12.5% of the profits on the EU revenue to the Irish government, as any other company must pay 12.5% of its European profits.  The fact that Apple has an agreement with the Irish tax administration to consider a few billion Euros of its European profits as non taxable, and thereby reducing the actual tax rate to 0.5% is perceived by the EU commission as illegal state aid.  Whether this is correct or not is up to the European court to decide. 


    First I am not saying what Apple paid, since I am not going to go through their 10K's to figure it, unless you are calling Apple a liar and can provide other facts (maybe alternate facts) this is what Apple said:

    "Apple’s worldwide effective tax rate is 24.6 percent, higher than average for US multinationals. " I believe this is independent of what they pay the US since that number is lower 21% and there is no way they paying 24.6% if they are only paying Ireland 0.5% as you claim. So where did the 24% get paid it did not go to the US. Other governments got a cut as such Ireland can not tax it since it was taxes elsewhere under the general rule of tax once.

    Familiarize yourself with undistributed earnings and you'll be well on your way to understanding why both statements can be true. 
    edited December 2017
  • Reply 38 of 40
    Well - that is what you get when you sign up to the EU and allow unelected Civil Servants to decide how everyone should live

    I have zero sympathy with the Irish

    And to think some morons think the EU is a good idea - an idea dreamt up by Facists - they lost the War so now they are subverting the Democracies
  • Reply 39 of 40
    Well - that is what you get when you sign up to the EU and allow unelected Civil Servants to decide how everyone should live

    I have zero sympathy with the Irish

    And to think some morons think the EU is a good idea - an idea dreamt up by Facists - they lost the War so now they are subverting the Democracies
    Try and understand how the EU functions and then come back. 
  • Reply 40 of 40
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,241member
    gatorguy said:
    maestro64 said:
    cropr said:
    maestro64 said:
    rob53 said:
    Tired of repeatedly hearing Apple only paid 0.005% in taxes. Is that really 0.005% or just 0.005? I’d like to see the official Apple tax statement not the voodoo economics generated by the Commission. We all know corporate taxes are never the full amount because they are offset by operating costs. 


    I will not show you the actual numbers since their story line would not be as impactful, when you see government throwing %'s around your neck hair should stand up. They hiding the real numbers so you have no idea what we talking about. What are the numerator and denominators in this case, Is the denominator all the incoming apple made world wide.

    These are not the actual numbers but explains what is going, the 0.005% comes from using Apple global profits not just what was sold in the EU, They pay Ireland 12.5% on the profits from the EU. The EU want a cut of the global profits, even though the US does not tax global profits until they come home. Now us has a new Tax law Apple can bring back most of the money and pay less taxes and if they keep doing it in the future that money will be off limits from the EU since it will be taxes in the US at higher rate than the EU. The same profits can not be taxed twice, is the general rule.

    http://money.cnn.com/2016/08/30/technology/apple-tax-ruling-numbers/index.html

    Stick to the facts please.  The EU does not want a cut (where did you get that nonsense?), neither is the EU looking at the world wide revenues. 

    The EU wants that Apple pays 12.5% of the profits on the EU revenue to the Irish government, as any other company must pay 12.5% of its European profits.  The fact that Apple has an agreement with the Irish tax administration to consider a few billion Euros of its European profits as non taxable, and thereby reducing the actual tax rate to 0.5% is perceived by the EU commission as illegal state aid.  Whether this is correct or not is up to the European court to decide. 


    First I am not saying what Apple paid, since I am not going to go through their 10K's to figure it, unless you are calling Apple a liar and can provide other facts (maybe alternate facts) this is what Apple said:

    "Apple’s worldwide effective tax rate is 24.6 percent, higher than average for US multinationals. " I believe this is independent of what they pay the US since that number is lower 21% and there is no way they paying 24.6% if they are only paying Ireland 0.5% as you claim. So where did the 24% get paid it did not go to the US. Other governments got a cut as such Ireland can not tax it since it was taxes elsewhere under the general rule of tax once.

    Familiarize yourself with undistributed earnings and you'll be well on your way to understanding why both statements can be true. 
    Can you explain? 
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