Ireland says Apple to start paying $15.4B in back taxes in Q1 2018

Posted:
in General Discussion
Apple should finally begin paying $15.4 billion in back taxes into an escrow account in the first quarter of next year, Ireland's finance minister announced on Monday.




"We have now reached agreement with Apple in relation to the principles and operation of the escrow fund," Paschal Donohoe told Reuters and other media outlets ahead of a meeting with European Competition Commissioner Margrethe Vestager. "We expect the money will begin to be transmitted into the account from Apple across the first quarter of next year."

In 2016, the European Commission ruled that Ireland had for years extended preferential state aid to Apple, something illegal under E.U. law. The Irish government was originally asked to collect the money by January, but has taken so long that the Commission is now taking the country to court.

The creation of an escrow account is likely a primary for the delay. Both Apple and Ireland are appealing the 2016 ruling, and have worked on setting up the account as a way of later returning the money. A point of concern for the Irish government was ensuring it wouldn't end up owing Apple large sums in interest.

Apple has maintained that it obeys tax laws, while the Irish government has claimed that the benefits it offered were available to other companies as well. In 2003, however, the company was paying 1 percent in Irish taxes, and by 2014 that amount had dropped to 0.005 percent on billions in international revenues funneled through the country. The Commission has accused Ireland of reverse engineering taxes on the fly to keep Apple happy.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 40
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,182member
    Er … that  headline says Apple is starting to pay back the tax. The article says that Apple is paying into an escrow. 

    It looks to me as if Apple is paying into a fund in case it loses the appeal, which is not the same as actually paying the tax. 

    So which is it?


    edited December 2017 jbdragon
  • Reply 2 of 40
    rob53rob53 Posts: 1,912member
    Tired of repeatedly hearing Apple only paid 0.005% in taxes. Is that really 0.005% or just 0.005? I’d like to see the official Apple tax statement not the voodoo economics generated by the Commission. We all know corporate taxes are never the full amount because they are offset by operating costs. 
    randominternetpersonjbdragonjony0
  • Reply 3 of 40
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 6,392member
    Rayz2016 said:
    Er … that  headline says Apple is starting to pay back the tax. The article says that Apple is paying into an escrow. 

    It looks to me as if Apple is paying into a fund in case it loses the appeal, which is not the same as actually paying the tax. 

    So which is it?


    Which is it?  Questionable journalism I would think. An obvious conflict between headline and article. Confusing the issue and users alike.
    philboogie
  • Reply 4 of 40
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,182member
    lkrupp said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    Er … that  headline says Apple is starting to pay back the tax. The article says that Apple is paying into an escrow. 

    It looks to me as if Apple is paying into a fund in case it loses the appeal, which is not the same as actually paying the tax. 

    So which is it?


    Which is it?  Questionable journalism I would think. An obvious conflict between headline and article. Confusing the issue and users alike.
    Indeed. I think I’ve just been click-baited. 

    Bigly sad. 
    anton zuykovphilboogie
  • Reply 5 of 40
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,105member
    Well they are definitely paying the tax, but not to Ireland. 
  • Reply 6 of 40
    dewmedewme Posts: 1,681member
    Rayz2016 said:
    Er … that  headline says Apple is starting to pay back the tax. The article says that Apple is paying into an escrow. 

    It looks to me as if Apple is paying into a fund in case it loses the appeal, which is not the same as actually paying the tax. 

    So which is it?


    Yeah, the headline is misleading and contradicts the article content. The headline should say that Apple will start to source money into an escrow account in case they lose their appeal, but only once the details for how the interest accrued on this vast sum of money should be handled. It would be punitive for Apple to lose the earning potential of such a vast sum of money that is just sitting there waiting on the case to be settled. This whole deal makes the Irish financial leaders involved with this deal look incredibly inept and stupid. But now it's Apple that will potentially have to pay the EU for Ireland's mistakes and ineptitude. 
  • Reply 7 of 40
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,182member
    asdasd said:
    Well they are definitely paying the tax, but not to Ireland. 
    That’s the thing. They’re not. 

    If they win the appeal then the money goes back to the tax liabilities column on the balance sheet. 

    You are right though. The tax has to be paid somewhere. 
    edited December 2017
  • Reply 8 of 40
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 19,268member
    Rayz2016 said:
    asdasd said:
    Well they are definitely paying the tax, but not to Ireland. 
    That’s the thing. They’re not. 

    If they win the appeal then the money goes back to the tax liabilities column on the balance sheet. 

    You are right though. The tax has to be paid somewhere. 
    Not according to Apple. They have $B tagged as not taxable by anyone, and $B more identified as not taxable by the US under any foreseeable circumstance. 
    baconstangavon b7
  • Reply 9 of 40
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,182member
    gatorguy said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    asdasd said:
    Well they are definitely paying the tax, but not to Ireland. 
    That’s the thing. They’re not. 

    If they win the appeal then the money goes back to the tax liabilities column on the balance sheet. 

    You are right though. The tax has to be paid somewhere. 
    Not according to Apple. They have $B tagged as not taxable by anyone, and $B more identified as not taxable by the US under any foreseeable circumstance. 
    Since you’re not a qualified accountant, I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here. 

    Like all companies, Apple avoids paying as much tax as it can. But when it has to pay it, it pays it. Just like Google :wink: 
    jbdragonphilboogie
  • Reply 10 of 40
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,182member
    Wow.

    AI is really going to let that headline stand. 


    philboogie
  • Reply 11 of 40
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 2,884member
    Rayz2016 said:
    asdasd said:
    Well they are definitely paying the tax, but not to Ireland. 
    That’s the thing. They’re not. 

    If they win the appeal then the money goes back to the tax liabilities column on the balance sheet. 

    You are right though. The tax has to be paid somewhere. 
    They won't.
    [Deleted User]
  • Reply 12 of 40
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,182member
    Rayz2016 said:
    asdasd said:
    Well they are definitely paying the tax, but not to Ireland. 
    That’s the thing. They’re not. 

    If they win the appeal then the money goes back to the tax liabilities column on the balance sheet. 

    You are right though. The tax has to be paid somewhere. 
    They won't.
    Since the EU is both judge and jury then probably not.
  • Reply 13 of 40
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 19,268member
    Rayz2016 said:
    gatorguy said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    asdasd said:
    Well they are definitely paying the tax, but not to Ireland. 
    That’s the thing. They’re not. 

    If they win the appeal then the money goes back to the tax liabilities column on the balance sheet. 

    You are right though. The tax has to be paid somewhere. 
    Not according to Apple. They have $B tagged as not taxable by anyone, and $B more identified as not taxable by the US under any foreseeable circumstance. 
    Since you’re not a qualified accountant, I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here. 

    Like all companies, Apple avoids paying as much tax as it can. But when it has to pay it, it pays it. Just like Google :wink: 
    It doesn't take an accountant to read Apple's statements, nor pay attention to footnotes in their financials. As for Google you are 100% correct. They do all they can to avoid tax expenses too. They don't get a pass, as you should have noted in previous comments I've made about their tax avoidance policies. For all the profits we individuals have made possible for big multinationals the general response from them when it comes to contributing to and replacing infrastructure and various essential and non-essential services that benefit all of us has been "Hey not our problem. If ya' need money for somthin' then you guys just need to pay more, 'cause we're not"
    edited December 2017 baconstang[Deleted User]
  • Reply 14 of 40
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,105member
    gatorguy said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    gatorguy said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    asdasd said:
    Well they are definitely paying the tax, but not to Ireland. 
    That’s the thing. They’re not. 

    If they win the appeal then the money goes back to the tax liabilities column on the balance sheet. 

    You are right though. The tax has to be paid somewhere. 
    Not according to Apple. They have $B tagged as not taxable by anyone, and $B more identified as not taxable by the US under any foreseeable circumstance. 
    Since you’re not a qualified accountant, I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here. 

    Like all companies, Apple avoids paying as much tax as it can. But when it has to pay it, it pays it. Just like Google :wink: 
    It doesn't take an accountant to read Apple's statements, nor pay attention to footnotes in their financials. 
    But of course some profit is non taxable, because tax isnt 100%. If Apple returns money to the US it will be taxed, unless the double taxation agreements stop this. 
    edited December 2017
  • Reply 15 of 40
    MacProMacPro Posts: 17,567member
    Ok I've got to ask ...  I wonder what happens if Apple is now allowed to repatriate it all at (guessing a rate here) 10% taxation in USA under new tax laws before this gets resolved in Europe ... 
    edited December 2017 baconstang
  • Reply 16 of 40
    MacPro said:
    Ok I've got to ask ...  I wonder what happens if Apple is now allowed to repatriate it all at (guessing a rate here) 10% taxation in USA under new tax laws before this gets resolved in Europe ... 
    It wasn't quite that low of a rate in the new law(s) - but AFAIK they still need to rationalize the very different Congressional and Senate bills before anything can pass.

    And then the GAO will look at it and go  :s
  • Reply 17 of 40
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,105member
    MacPro said:
    Ok I've got to ask ...  I wonder what happens if Apple is now allowed to repatriate it all at (guessing a rate here) 10% taxation in USA under new tax laws before this gets resolved in Europe ... 
    It would have to repatriate all profits from the last number of years, since the "sweat heart deal". Ireland will be owed some money, if this is allowable. ( The difference between 10 and 12.5%). 
  • Reply 18 of 40
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,182member
    gatorguy said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    gatorguy said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    asdasd said:
    Well they are definitely paying the tax, but not to Ireland. 
    That’s the thing. They’re not. 

    If they win the appeal then the money goes back to the tax liabilities column on the balance sheet. 

    You are right though. The tax has to be paid somewhere. 
    Not according to Apple. They have $B tagged as not taxable by anyone, and $B more identified as not taxable by the US under any foreseeable circumstance. 
    Since you’re not a qualified accountant, I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here. 

    Like all companies, Apple avoids paying as much tax as it can. But when it has to pay it, it pays it. Just like Google :wink: 
    It doesn't take an accountant to read Apple's statements, nor pay attention to footnotes in their financials. As for Google you are 100% correct. They do all they can to avoid tax expenses too. They don't get a pass, as you should have noted in previous comments I've made about their tax avoidance policies. For all the profits we individuals have made possible for big multinationals the general response from them when it comes to supporting and replacing infrastructure and various essential and non-essential services via corporate taxes has been "Hey not our problem. If more money is needed then you guys just pay more, 'cause we're not"
    Yes, but it takes an accountant to know if it’s legal or not. Which you’re not, so you don’t. 

    Also reading the balance statement doesn’t tell you if what they’re doing is ethical or not. If they have said that billions is not taxable then that sounds a lot like a deferral for future investment. Or did you think that data centers, retail stores (new and recently robbed), car test beds, specialist manufacturing equipment, write-offs from sapphire production … all comes from the Apple fairy?

    And as I said, I don’t have a problem with legal tax avoidance, because I don’t pay a penny more tax than I’m legally required to. 
    edited December 2017 philboogie
  • Reply 19 of 40
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 19,268member
    Rayz2016 said:
    gatorguy said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    gatorguy said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    asdasd said:
    Well they are definitely paying the tax, but not to Ireland. 
    That’s the thing. They’re not. 

    If they win the appeal then the money goes back to the tax liabilities column on the balance sheet. 

    You are right though. The tax has to be paid somewhere. 
    Not according to Apple. They have $B tagged as not taxable by anyone, and $B more identified as not taxable by the US under any foreseeable circumstance. 
    Since you’re not a qualified accountant, I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here. 

    Like all companies, Apple avoids paying as much tax as it can. But when it has to pay it, it pays it. Just like Google :wink: 
    It doesn't take an accountant to read Apple's statements, nor pay attention to footnotes in their financials. As for Google you are 100% correct. They do all they can to avoid tax expenses too. They don't get a pass, as you should have noted in previous comments I've made about their tax avoidance policies. For all the profits we individuals have made possible for big multinationals the general response from them when it comes to supporting and replacing infrastructure and various essential and non-essential services via corporate taxes has been "Hey not our problem. If more money is needed then you guys just pay more, 'cause we're not"
    Ya, but it takes an accountant to know if it’s legal or not. Which you’re not, so you don’t. 

    Also reading the balance statement doesn’t tell you if what they’re doing is ethical or not. If they have said that billions is not taxable then that sounds a lot like a deferral for future investment. Or did you think that data centers, retail stores (new and recently robbed), car test beds, specialist manufacturing equipment, write-offs from sapphire production … all comes from the Apple fairy?
    I've not ever opined that anything Apple did tax-wise was illegal so yet again we agree.. Some individual countries have made that determination, but you are correct that neither you nor I are qualified nor have standing to do so. 
  • Reply 20 of 40
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,105member
    gatorguy said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    gatorguy said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    gatorguy said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    asdasd said:
    Well they are definitely paying the tax, but not to Ireland. 
    That’s the thing. They’re not. 

    If they win the appeal then the money goes back to the tax liabilities column on the balance sheet. 

    You are right though. The tax has to be paid somewhere. 
    Not according to Apple. They have $B tagged as not taxable by anyone, and $B more identified as not taxable by the US under any foreseeable circumstance. 
    Since you’re not a qualified accountant, I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here. 

    Like all companies, Apple avoids paying as much tax as it can. But when it has to pay it, it pays it. Just like Google :wink: 
    It doesn't take an accountant to read Apple's statements, nor pay attention to footnotes in their financials. As for Google you are 100% correct. They do all they can to avoid tax expenses too. They don't get a pass, as you should have noted in previous comments I've made about their tax avoidance policies. For all the profits we individuals have made possible for big multinationals the general response from them when it comes to supporting and replacing infrastructure and various essential and non-essential services via corporate taxes has been "Hey not our problem. If more money is needed then you guys just pay more, 'cause we're not"
    Ya, but it takes an accountant to know if it’s legal or not. Which you’re not, so you don’t. 

    Also reading the balance statement doesn’t tell you if what they’re doing is ethical or not. If they have said that billions is not taxable then that sounds a lot like a deferral for future investment. Or did you think that data centers, retail stores (new and recently robbed), car test beds, specialist manufacturing equipment, write-offs from sapphire production … all comes from the Apple fairy?
    I've not ever opined that anything Apple did tax-wise was illegal so yet again we agree.. Some individual countries have made that determination, but you are correct that neither you nor I are qualified nor have standing to do so. 
    All I hear from their conference calls is an "effective rate" of taxation of about 25%. Thats been the case of years. I dont know exactly what that means though. I dont think anybody does. 
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