Apple has 'moral obligation' to promote free expression in China, U.S. Senator says

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 71
    The Senator should note that he and the US has a moral obligation to clean up its devious deeds around the world first, starting with the illegal war in Iraq.
    edited December 2017
  • Reply 22 of 71
    porg1969 said:
    securtis said:
    Tim is at the apex of hypocritical CEOs. He's a complete pushover when it comes to China, and will cut every corner regarding privacy when it comes to making a buck there. In the U.S. however, he'll fight tooth and nail when it comes to helping the feds in unlock a terrorist phone. 
    You’re an idiot. 

    Lol.. was the first thing that popped up in my head when I read his post..
    StrangeDays
  • Reply 23 of 71
    boogabooga Posts: 1,075member
    The Senator is talking about the same China that Congress granted Most Favored Nation Status for trade policy?
    larryaanantksundaram
  • Reply 24 of 71
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 19,058member
    cgWerks said:
    A US Senator talking about moral obligations?
    I just don't quite know how to react to that.
    To be fair Mr. Cook does feel he, and by extension Apple, has a "moral obligation" to speak out when he sees inequality or hate on display. According to PatentlyApple the problem is it's a selective moral obligation that depends on the source of that hate or inequality. You might disagree of course.
    http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2017/08/apples-ceo-sends-out-another-preachy-memo.html

    Regarding China specifically Mr. Cook really has little choice other than "kiss the ring" IMO. Apple can't afford to alienate Chinese leadership, something Cook is more comfortable doing and worries about less when he does so in Western countries. I don't think he's too concerned with aggravating US or EU leaders.  Not eh Chinese tho. Apple absolutely needs Chinese manufacturing and cooperation and they've put themselves in the position of needing the immense Chinese iPhone revenue. Chinese leaders have no qualms about curtailing companies that avoid playing ball with them, so Apple plays ball while very gently nudging Chinese leadership to be more open.
    edited December 2017 mike1jony0cgWerks
  • Reply 25 of 71
    gatorguy said:
    cgWerks said:
    A US Senator talking about moral obligations?
    I just don't quite know how to react to that.
    To be fair Mr. Cook does feel he, and by extension Apple, has a "moral obligation" to speak out when he sees inequality or hate on display. According to PatentlyApple the problem is it's a selective moral obligation that depends on the source of that hate or inequality. You might disagree of course.
    http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2017/08/apples-ceo-sends-out-another-preachy-memo.html

    Regarding China specifically Mr. Cook really has little choice other than "kiss the ring" IMO. Apple can't afford to alienate Chinese leadership, something Cook is more comfortable doing and worries about less when he does so in Western countries. I don't think he's too concerned with aggravating US or EU leaders.  Not eh Chinese tho. Apple absolutely needs Chinese manufacturing and cooperation and they've put themselves in the position of needing the immense Chinese iPhone revenue. Chinese leaders have no qualms about curtailing companies that avoid playing ball with them, so Apple plays ball while very gently nudging Chinese leadership to be more open.
    Stop conflating things (per your usual style).

    Do you not see that there is an important distinction between the issue in the memo you trot out and the complexities of doing business in another legal jurisdiction? What is the legal conundrum, if any, he’s dealing with in the memo you cite? 
  • Reply 26 of 71
    jd_in_sbjd_in_sb Posts: 1,481member
    securtis said:
    Tim is at the apex of hypocritical CEOs. He's a complete pushover when it comes to China, and will cut every corner regarding privacy when it comes to making a buck there. In the U.S. however, he'll fight tooth and nail when it comes to helping the feds in unlock a terrorist phone. 
    I agree with others. You are an idiot. 
    StrangeDaysjony0Macsplosion
  • Reply 27 of 71
    macxpressmacxpress Posts: 4,544member
    Senators have a moral right to do their job as best they can for the best of their people, but I don't see that happening either...
  • Reply 28 of 71
    dewmedewme Posts: 1,616member
    dewme said:
    ... job that the US government, and more specifically, the US State Department is responsible for? As in that moribund government agency that's been systematically neutered by the Moron in Chief.
    I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to. While I have my dislike of Trump for many reasons, I hope he does a heck of a lot more neutering of the State Dept! You know all those Syrian refugees? US State Dept work there. The other 6 countries we've destabilized or are going to in the ME? Yep, those folks (and Congress people). Millions of lives destroyed... thanks, USA. At least Trump ordered the CIA units home who were propping up the terrorists.

    Please take a look at the topics under "What We Do" on the US Dept of State home page. Working with foreign governments to relieve human right issues, ensure US companies get fair access to foreign markets, etc., are all things that are clearly in the wheelhouse of the state department and not the CEO of a technology company. The problem we have with the current administration is that they politically cherry pick the things that they don't like about an agency or policy, and instead of fixing the things they don't like about it, they destroy the entire organization or install a puppet leader, family members included, to decimate, neuter, or use it as a tool of destruction against the very purpose that the organization was created to serve. It's a creeping rot that started at the top.
    edited December 2017 singularityjony0
  • Reply 29 of 71
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 2,755member
    cgWerks said:

    securtis said:
    Tim is at the apex of hypocritical CEOs. He's a complete pushover when it comes to China, and will cut every corner regarding privacy when it comes to making a buck there. In the U.S. however, he'll fight tooth and nail when it comes to helping the feds in unlock a terrorist phone. 
    Well, and even fund organizations trying to shut-down free-speech in the USA.
    bshank said:
    China is a sovereign country. Apple does business there. Apple’s policy is compliance wherever it does business.
    While at the same time taking 'moral' stands in the USA. I think we get this... we're just pointing out the hypocrisy.
    Jesus christ, which part of “Apple is a US company and not a Chinese one” is so hard for you to understand? The US part, or the not-Chinese part?

    And please, do tell us how Cook is funding organizations trying to shut down free speech. This ought to be good...
    Damn!  I thought it was an Irish company!   Fooled me!
  • Reply 30 of 71
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 19,058member
    gatorguy said:
    cgWerks said:
    A US Senator talking about moral obligations?
    I just don't quite know how to react to that.
    To be fair Mr. Cook does feel he, and by extension Apple, has a "moral obligation" to speak out when he sees inequality or hate on display. According to PatentlyApple the problem is it's a selective moral obligation that depends on the source of that hate or inequality. You might disagree of course.
    http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2017/08/apples-ceo-sends-out-another-preachy-memo.html

    Regarding China specifically Mr. Cook really has little choice other than "kiss the ring" IMO. Apple can't afford to alienate Chinese leadership, something Cook is more comfortable doing and worries about less when he does so in Western countries. I don't think he's too concerned with aggravating US or EU leaders.  Not eh Chinese tho. Apple absolutely needs Chinese manufacturing and cooperation and they've put themselves in the position of needing the immense Chinese iPhone revenue. Chinese leaders have no qualms about curtailing companies that avoid playing ball with them, so Apple plays ball while very gently nudging Chinese leadership to be more open.
    Stop conflating things (per your usual style).

    Do you not see that there is an important distinction between the issue in the memo you trot out and the complexities of doing business in another legal jurisdiction? What is the legal conundrum, if any, he’s dealing with in the memo you cite? 
    Did you even read my post?? There's an entire paragraph about the distinction and it begins with "regarding China" in case you can't find it. :eyeroll:
    edited December 2017 singularity
  • Reply 31 of 71
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,102member
    bshank said:
    securtis said:
    Tim is at the apex of hypocritical CEOs. He's a complete pushover when it comes to China, and will cut every corner regarding privacy when it comes to making a buck there. In the U.S. however, he'll fight tooth and nail when it comes to helping the feds in unlock a terrorist phone. 
    China is a sovereign country. Apple does business there. Apple’s policy is compliance wherever it does business. They make a lot of money that way and it benefits our economy. Don’t like that Apple will sell Macs and iPhones to the Chinese? Then don’t buy Apple. It’s really that easy bro. You’re not going to start some sort of anti-Apple revolution here.
    Its the hypocrisy though. What if the US declares RT a "foreign agent". Will Tim try fight that? I doubt it.

    Tim is a good CEO, but he is too political. The problem with being too right on about some subjects ( diversity etc) is that it will rankle when other more serious human rights issues are brushed aside for the bottom line. 
    cgWerks
  • Reply 32 of 71
    Don’t you just love it when members of Congress, who are wholly owned subsidiaries of corporations and pressure group lobbyists, lecture others on morality?
    edited December 2017
  • Reply 33 of 71
    maestro64maestro64 Posts: 4,236member
    wood1208 said:
    U.S. Senator Patrick Leahy has moral obligation to take his free expression issue to Chinese directly. Politicians talk to much jibber-jabber and work little. Wish they learn from Chinese. For outsiders, doing business in China as is difficult and don't make it more.

    Companies obligations of to make money and follow the rule of law. As you pointed out, if the US government want to change China policies they are more than welcome to go have the conversation. You know the US government is not going to come to Apple defense if China closes they out like they did google and face book. Because Apple follows the rule of law in China, they are many high paid people working in the US. If Apple decide to be the political arm for the US government, you can bet the US government is not going to help those who loose their jobs find a new one.
  • Reply 34 of 71
    cgWerks said:
    StrangeDays said:
    Jesus christ, which part of “Apple is a US company and not a Chinese one” is so hard for you to understand? The US part, or the not-Chinese part?

    And please, do tell us how Cook is funding organizations trying to shut down free speech. This ought to be good...
    I thought a few weeks back everyone was arguing that they were an international company. But, my point was that morality doesn't change when you change location between the USA and China. It's irrelevant what their laws are... if Apple is standing on a moral claim in the USA, it's hypocritical not to take the same stand anywhere else. If they are simply rule-following in either place, then they don't have grounds to make a fuss about laws they don't agree with.

    Cook donated millions to SPLC. SPLC has put a bunch of wrong-think organizations and individuals on their 'hate group' list, not only attempting to censor them, but impacting their livelihoods and even endangering their lives. (Essentially, Cook is funding a USA-based terrorist organization and hate-group.)
    The SPLC a terrorist org? You are completely delusional if that's what you're suggesting, so thanks for making your crank-factor clear. The SPLC's entire premise is based on freedom of speech and the press.

    "The Student Press Law Center is an advocate for student First Amendment rights, for freedom of online speech, and for open government on campus. The SPLC provides information, training and legal assistance at no charge to student journalists and the educators who work with them."

    http://www.splc.org

    As for China -- Apple is based in the USA, which is its corporate headquarters. It is a US citizen, and as such is entitled to participate in our democratic republic. It has the legal right to do so. None of this is the case for Apple in China. 

    You argument is as flimsy as my stating this one -- that if you are a proponent of democracy then it's your moral obligation to pack your bags and champion this cause in China. You believe in democracy don't you? Then why in god's name aren't you in China beating the drum for democracy! Or in Saudi Arabia? What's stopping you, Mr. Werks? Why are you not overseas spending your savings promoting your values? It's your moral imperative by your own reasoning! Right? Wrong. It's a stupid argument, and the reason it's stupid is why you're here and not there doing what you're asking Apple to do.

    But I get it, you're mad they don't make the Macs you remember and Cook is supportive of gay rights.
    edited December 2017 singularityjony0
  • Reply 35 of 71

    cgWerks said:

    securtis said:
    Tim is at the apex of hypocritical CEOs. He's a complete pushover when it comes to China, and will cut every corner regarding privacy when it comes to making a buck there. In the U.S. however, he'll fight tooth and nail when it comes to helping the feds in unlock a terrorist phone. 
    Well, and even fund organizations trying to shut-down free-speech in the USA.
    bshank said:
    China is a sovereign country. Apple does business there. Apple’s policy is compliance wherever it does business.
    While at the same time taking 'moral' stands in the USA. I think we get this... we're just pointing out the hypocrisy.
    Jesus christ, which part of “Apple is a US company and not a Chinese one” is so hard for you to understand? The US part, or the not-Chinese part?

    And please, do tell us how Cook is funding organizations trying to shut down free speech. This ought to be good...
    Damn!  I thought it was an Irish company!   Fooled me!
    Nope, that's where their European subsidiary is based and where its tax obligations reside for the region.
  • Reply 36 of 71
    well, yes, apple should but can they? a lot of the policies vary region to region. in a state like china, for instance, they can either, follow the established laws obediently or just make a peaceful exit. there's nothing in-between. and seeing most providers do indeed obediently follow those laws, i would suggest the freedom of speech slogans and stances in first world nations are nothing but a marketing gimmick. when china demanded apple take down those vpn apps, apple had no option other than compliance. true, users were still able to get around by configuring vpns like ivacy and nord without app, manually but again, apple had already played its part.
  • Reply 37 of 71
    nhtnht Posts: 4,214member
    cgWerks said:
    StrangeDays said:
    Jesus christ, which part of “Apple is a US company and not a Chinese one” is so hard for you to understand? The US part, or the not-Chinese part?

    And please, do tell us how Cook is funding organizations trying to shut down free speech. This ought to be good...
    I thought a few weeks back everyone was arguing that they were an international company. But, my point was that morality doesn't change when you change location between the USA and China. It's irrelevant what their laws are... if Apple is standing on a moral claim in the USA, it's hypocritical not to take the same stand anywhere else. If they are simply rule-following in either place, then they don't have grounds to make a fuss about laws they don't agree with.

    Cook donated millions to SPLC. SPLC has put a bunch of wrong-think organizations and individuals on their 'hate group' list, not only attempting to censor them, but impacting their livelihoods and even endangering their lives. (Essentially, Cook is funding a USA-based terrorist organization and hate-group.)
    The SPLC a terrorist org? You are completely delusional if that's what you're suggesting, so thanks for making your crank-factor clear. The SPLC's entire premise is based on freedom of speech and the press.

    "The Student Press Law Center is an advocate for student First Amendment rights, for freedom of online speech, and for open government on campus. The SPLC provides information, training and legal assistance at no charge to student journalists and the educators who work with them."

    http://www.splc.org

    As for China -- Apple is based in the USA, which is its corporate headquarters. It is a US citizen, and as such is entitled to participate in our democratic republic. It has the legal right to do so. None of this is the case for Apple in China. 

    You argument is as flimsy as my stating this one -- that if you are a proponent of democracy then it's your moral obligation to pack your bags and champion this cause in China. You believe in democracy don't you? Then why in god's name aren't you in China beating the drum for democracy! Or in Saudi Arabia? What's stopping you, Mr. Werks? Why are you not overseas spending your savings promoting your values? It's your moral imperative by your own reasoning! Right? Wrong. It's a stupid argument, and the reason it's stupid is why you're here and not there doing what you're asking Apple to do.

    But I get it, you're mad they don't make the Macs you remember and Cook is supportive of gay rights.
    He means this one:

    https://www.splcenter.org/

    He's stil a crank though for labelling people he disagrees with as terrorists and hate groups as opposed to real terrorists and hate groups.  SPLC, like all organizations, has issues I agree with and those I don't.  

    But then again, I'm a moderate conservative that hates Trump and the alt-right racist asshats that have taken over the GOP.  But hell, even the moderates have kissed the ring and prostituted themselves to get a broken tax cut thats going to cause huge deficits.  For a short while I was a big fan of Lindsey Graham but not after last week.

    I dunno what the heck the GOP stands for anymore but it sure as hell isn't fiscal responsibility and deficit reduction.  The only republican senators with any balls either have terminal cancer or won't be running again.  That pretty much means I'm essentially politcally orphaned.
    jony0
  • Reply 38 of 71
    As long as Apple totally refuse to pay any tax at all what so ever, Tim can take his “moral” and stick where his boyfriend normally visit him.
    Every single crown they earn inside EU is funnelled through Irish tax heaven with 0,0005 tax, i.e. no tax at all.
  • Reply 39 of 71
    MacProMacPro Posts: 17,518member
    Free expression has taken on a darker meaning this last year sadly, now it has strong associations with what used to be called Disinformation in WWII.  
    cgWerks
  • Reply 40 of 71
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 2,755member
    Don’t you just love it when members of Congress, who are wholly owned subsidiaries of corporations and pressure group lobbyists, lecture others on morality?
    Beware of false equivalencies and generalizations... 
    49 members of the senate voted against the latest giveaway to billionaires...

    Wrong doing often hides behind the excuse of:  "Well, they all do it"
This discussion has been closed.