Apple responds to investor criticism over heavy smartphone use by children, says parental ...

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  • Reply 41 of 80
    nhtnht Posts: 4,303member

    Rayz2016 said:
    A friend of mine keeps the iPads locked away until the homework’s done, and the kids are only allowed to use them in the living room, not their bedrooms. 

    I asked him if he’d heard of parental controls, and he said, “Yes, you’re talking to them.”

    He then asked me if any other parental control could prevent his kids being bullied on line, or prevent them from being involved in the bullying of other kids. 

    I said, “Probably not.”

    He asked if another parental control could tell if the person they’re chatting to online is a really a fourteen-year-old, or a thirty-eight-year-old pervert. 

    “Er, no.”

    “So, I’m probably the best parental control money can buy.”

    He did have a point. 

    Parental controls on devices are okay to a point, but the problem isn’t usually the site url: it’s the content and the people on it. Reading some of the posts here, I’m wondering if people are relying on parental controls too much. 

    You are right... Parental controls cannot take the place of a knowledgeable, caring, responsible parent.   But that doesn't mean that that same parent would not be able to do a better job with the right tools. 

    As others have pointed out, Apple has fallen behind in providing those tools.  Both Windows and Android have passed them by...

    That's not to nail Apple.  They never claimed to be perfect and they aren't.   But, they can do better and this open letter to the board is just a gentle kick in the pants to get moving...

    (BTW, the examples you site are good examples, but they only pertain to younger kids.  They become less and less applicable as the child gets older and more independent)
    And let’s be honest.  Any parent that claims never to have used an electronic device as a babysitter is lying to you. 

    Any parent not actively engaged in the same electronic activity as their kid is using it isn’t functioning as any sort of “parental control”.
    AI_liasGeorgeBMac
  • Reply 42 of 80
    quadra 610quadra 610 Posts: 6,741member
    Not Apple’s problem. Parental controls are already in place. Need more? BE AN ACTUAL PARENT. Like mine were. Values, love of educational, wholesome activities, and the ability to discern what’s good for oneself, comes from parents who take the time to cultivate these things in their children. 

    And are these the same folks that get all in huff and a puff when Apple involves themselves in social justice matters and politics, but then turn around and are all “won’t you think of the children? What about children?”

    Food for thought. 
  • Reply 43 of 80
    AI_liasAI_lias Posts: 261member
    This discussion is more nuanced than people are willing to admit here. First, what works for some ages, does not work for others (small kids in the house with iPad, vs. older kids with iPhone in pocket anywhere they go). Controls also can vary, for example, allow access to an app (ex. game) for only 1 hour a day, etc.) So regimented use, etc. I'm sure what's already there is known to people, but they're wanting Apple to think innovatively about this one, and offer some better solutions. Heck, maybe it can offer some solutions for grown-ups too, who are addicted. It's a thing. I don't know what that would be, a reminder, something else. My kids are small enough that I can only give them the iPad for one hour a day after they've earned it, so I do not need any help, but I can see how the current controls can be improved in some ways.
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 44 of 80
    Rayz2016 said:
    A friend of mine keeps the iPads locked away until the homework’s done, and the kids are only allowed to use them in the living room, not their bedrooms. 

    I asked him if he’d heard of parental controls, and he said, “Yes, you’re talking to them.”

    He then asked me if any other parental control could prevent his kids being bullied on line, or prevent them from being involved in the bullying of other kids. 

    I said, “Probably not.”

    He asked if another parental control could tell if the person they’re chatting to online is a really a fourteen-year-old, or a thirty-eight-year-old pervert. 

    “Er, no.”

    “So, I’m probably the best parental control money can buy.”

    He did have a point. 

    Parental controls on devices are okay to a point, but the problem isn’t usually the site url: it’s the content and the people on it. Reading some of the posts here, I’m wondering if people are relying on parental controls too much. 

    You are right... Parental controls cannot take the place of a knowledgeable, caring, responsible parent.   But that doesn't mean that that same parent would not be able to do a better job with the right tools. 

    ...
    The point Rayz2016 and others are making, and I think it’s 100% correct, is that parents and some posting here are trying to dump their parental responsibilities onto automated device management. That kind of device management may be useful in certain situations, but it’s not at all necessary unless someone does not really know how to lead their kids.

    It’s never even occurred to me to use device management with my three kids, because my kids do what I tell them. It’s not magic, it’s called parental consistency and follow through. The one extremely simple (but also often difficult) thing a parent can do for their children is to follow through the first time. If we say ‘don’t do that’ and then say it again, and then again, and also don’t follow through or only follow through when we get too frustrated, that will make it impossible for our children to learn to behave.

    I constantly see misbehaving children and every single time I see a parent with problems following through and being consistent, and conversely when I see a behaving child I always see a parent with follow through and consistency. I grew up with my mother running a daycare and over the course of 17 years I saw every single child, some of which with initial behaviour problems (and the corresponding parental non-follow through), become an obedient and happier child in less than 2 weeks. It’s not magic, and relying on automated device management will hurt the overall parent/child relationship.
    edited January 9 edred
  • Reply 45 of 80
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,351member
    The other thing this chap and his wife do is give the kids an allowance, but they can earn more by doing extra chores around the house. 

    If the kids save a certain amount then they get a bonus every three months. If they need extra then they can have it, but their parents charge them interest!





  • Reply 46 of 80
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 5,876member
    sirozha said:
    This is absolutely crucial. Apple has done very little in this area. Apple got out of the router game, but even when they did actively develop AirPort Extreme, there was no way to limit internet usage by the total number of hours for each user. You could set the time periods for access but not the total number of hours. However, kids could just switch to LTE and bypass all the restrictions. 

    Apple should definitely come up with parental controls that encompass all of its devices and allow parents to administer controls from one web-based portal. Additionally, content filtering should be an option. Maybe all children’s internet activity should be proxied via the Apple’s servers that carry out filtering. Maybe the filtering rules should be pushed to end devices. Either way, there should be a way to restrict where kids can go on the web if Apple’s devices are used. 

    You won’t get this if you are still living in your parents’ basement, so don’t bother to respond. Get back to me when your kids start reaching the age of Internet use if Apple hasn’t developed content filtering tools by then.  
    YouTube is a prime example:  it has a ton of stuff that appeal to pre-school and grade school aged kids, but it also has R and X rated stuff.   Apple's only choice for that app is a "Yes or No" for the app itself...
    There is no X-rated content on youtube. 
  • Reply 47 of 80
    macxpressmacxpress Posts: 4,616member
    So basically Apple is saying be a parent! 
  • Reply 48 of 80
    People, process, and technology. We can focus on the *device* but remember that to be effective, we also need to focus on the *people* (parents and kids!) and the *rules* on how you use them. Apple does have a lot of controls already. There may be quibbles about the iOS approach or Android's approach but I'm not sure this complaint rests primarily on them.
  • Reply 49 of 80
    macxpressmacxpress Posts: 4,616member
    sirozha said:
    This is absolutely crucial. Apple has done very little in this area. Apple got out of the router game, but even when they did actively develop AirPort Extreme, there was no way to limit internet usage by the total number of hours for each user. You could set the time periods for access but not the total number of hours. However, kids could just switch to LTE and bypass all the restrictions. 

    Apple should definitely come up with parental controls that encompass all of its devices and allow parents to administer controls from one web-based portal. Additionally, content filtering should be an option. Maybe all children’s internet activity should be proxied via the Apple’s servers that carry out filtering. Maybe the filtering rules should be pushed to end devices. Either way, there should be a way to restrict where kids can go on the web if Apple’s devices are used. 

    You won’t get this if you are still living in your parents’ basement, so don’t bother to respond. Get back to me when your kids start reaching the age of Internet use if Apple hasn’t developed content filtering tools by then.  
    YouTube is a prime example:  it has a ton of stuff that appeal to pre-school and grade school aged kids, but it also has R and X rated stuff.   Apple's only choice for that app is a "Yes or No" for the app itself...
    There is no X-rated content on youtube. 
    Well there is I guess some would consider X Rated content on YouTube, but its for educational purposes and ONLY educational purposes. Its not uploaded with the intent of it being pornography. 

    If you have a younger child why not just disable Safari? Then you don't have to worry about where they go on the internet. At that age, they probably shouldn't be on the internet anyways. 

    Basically, what @sirozha wants is an MDM for parents. Apple does make this. Its called Profile Manager and is built into Server, which is compatible for any Mac running Sierra or High Sierra and it's only $20. The downside is that you have to know what the hell you're doing when you setup it up. I guess Apple could make a cloud based MDM solution for parents and try to make it simple enough to where any parent can use it. I don't know if Apple could do this with some sort of family iCloud account and link the phones to that account or something and then they and manage them that way or what. 
  • Reply 50 of 80
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,399member
    There is no X-rated content on youtube. 
    I can’t decide if this is childish naïveté or blatant, purposeful obfuscation.
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 51 of 80
    evilutionevilution Posts: 1,325member
    Android phones sell more than the iPhone so why is it only Apple that has to sort the "problem"?

    It's bad news when Apple are getting the blame for crappy parents.
  • Reply 52 of 80
    mknelsonmknelson Posts: 260member
    YouTube is a prime example:  it has a ton of stuff that appeal to pre-school and grade school aged kids, but it also has R and X rated stuff.   Apple's only choice for that app is a "Yes or No" for the app itself...
    There is no X-rated content on youtube. 
    They'll just go on Peni…I mean Periscope…
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 53 of 80
    macxpressmacxpress Posts: 4,616member
    evilution said:
    Android phones sell more than the iPhone so why is it only Apple that has to sort the "problem"?

    It's bad news when Apple are getting the blame for crappy parents.
    Because no parents or teachers association invest in Google..err Alphabet, whatever they want to call themselves these days. 
  • Reply 54 of 80
    nmbr7nmbr7 Posts: 1member
    I agree parental controls can be more robust, but I've found that Restrictions can work pretty well and in my case, better than any paid app.
    I ended up
     -  limiting the apps to rating 4+ which eliminated most addictive games but kept school apps like Google Classrom, etc  (Restrictions - Apps-4+) and then
     -  limiting undesirable web sites (Websites - Limit Adult Content. . that gives you option to add "always allow" and "never allow"  sites. Youtube goes in the latter lisitng :).

    I hope this helps. I used OutPact before but this setup actually works much better for me. 
     
  • Reply 55 of 80
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 3,117member
    People, process, and technology. We can focus on the *device* but remember that to be effective, we also need to focus on the *people* (parents and kids!) and the *rules* on how you use them. Apple does have a lot of controls already. There may be quibbles about the iOS approach or Android's approach but I'm not sure this complaint rests primarily on them.
    Basically, the only controls i____ have are for blocking sex & violence -- the hot buttons of the 70's-90's.

    When Steve created the iPhone in 2007 and the iPad in 2011 he created/expanded the platform for a whole new paradigm:   non-stop internet -- mostly social media.

    Is social media as dangerous as sex & violence?
    -- It's addictive (not in the medical sense but in the sense of creating an obsession)
    -- It has become the preferred method used by extremist organizations for issuing propaganda and gathering recruits and loyalists.  For example: ISIS used it to radicalize kids and gather recruits while Russia used it in a similar way during our last election.

    No, Apple cannot patrol the internet or social media.  But they can give parents better tools to enable them to supervise their kids more effectively.
    dewme
  • Reply 56 of 80
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 3,117member
    evilution said:
    Android phones sell more than the iPhone so why is it only Apple that has to sort the "problem"?

    It's bad news when Apple are getting the blame for crappy parents.
    i don't think anybody is "Blaming" Apple.  Just asking them to catch up to modern times and do a better job.
  • Reply 57 of 80
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 3,117member
    nmbr7 said:
    I agree parental controls can be more robust, but I've found that Restrictions can work pretty well and in my case, better than any paid app.
    I ended up
     -  limiting the apps to rating 4+ which eliminated most addictive games but kept school apps like Google Classrom, etc  (Restrictions - Apps-4+) and then
     -  limiting undesirable web sites (Websites - Limit Adult Content. . that gives you option to add "always allow" and "never allow"  sites. Youtube goes in the latter lisitng :).

    I hope this helps. I used OutPact before but this setup actually works much better for me. 
     
    Those controls can limit the sex and violence.   But, they become less effective as the child ages, gathers friends and wants to explore and experience newer things (like YouTube).

    But, the newer problem is social media, non-stop videos, games and the like:  it produces obsessive use and can introduce the child to undesirable elements.  Parents need better tools to supervise their kids.   One good one would be to enable the parent to set a real bed time for the phone -- where it shuts down at, say, 9:00pm on weekdays and only allows emergency calls through (or maybe calls from callers on the contact list).

    Apple needs to get out of the 90's on parental controls.
    Habi_tweet
  • Reply 58 of 80
    dewmedewme Posts: 1,763member
    Part of the problem is that many kids these days are more tech savvy than their parents. In these cases it is likely that the kids will find ways to override any restrictions placed on the kiddies devices by their parents. I know this is a polarizing topic but I still believe that primary responsibility remains with the parents and it is up to them to control their children’s use of technology devices just as they control their use of automobiles, bicycles, televisions, gaming consoles, time away from home, after school activities, cookie jars, etc.

    Beyond the hypothetical cases where tools are used to prevent accidental access to content that may be damaging to kids, everything about device imposed restrictions is based on the breakdown of the trust relationship between parents and children. Sorry to say that there is little to nothing that technology providers like Apple can do to mend that relationship. That’s the job of parenting. 

    Finally, if you’re going to apply pressure of anyone in this problem area it should start with the social media giants like Facebook, Pinterest, and Google. That’s where the greatest potential for abuse resides, not with device makers. Kids can get to social media sites from any device, not just those manufactured by Apple.
  • Reply 59 of 80
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 3,117member
    dewme said:
    Part of the problem is that many kids these days are more tech savvy than their parents. In these cases it is likely that the kids will find ways to override any restrictions placed on the kiddies devices by their parents. I know this is a polarizing topic but I still believe that primary responsibility remains with the parents and it is up to them to control their children’s use of technology devices just as they control their use of automobiles, bicycles, televisions, gaming consoles, time away from home, after school activities, cookie jars, etc.

    Beyond the hypothetical cases where tools are used to prevent accidental access to content that may be damaging to kids, everything about device imposed restrictions is based on the breakdown of the trust relationship between parents and children. Sorry to say that there is little to nothing that technology providers like Apple can do to mend that relationship. That’s the job of parenting. 

    Finally, if you’re going to apply pressure of anyone in this problem area it should start with the social media giants like Facebook, Pinterest, and Google. That’s where the greatest potential for abuse resides, not with device makers. Kids can get to social media sites from any device, not just those manufactured by Apple.
    Uhhh no...
    It's not black & white.   And it's certainly not that 'all parental controls are useless because kids are more tech savvy than the parents".   That's an excuse.

    Parental controls are tools used by good parents to become better parents.  Unfortunately, the parental controls on iOS devices are from back in the 90's -- designed to restrict sex and violence.  Apple needs to provide parents with modern, more effective tools.  Will they be bullet-proof?  Probably not.  Few security related measures ever are.  But that's no reason to not make them available. 
  • Reply 60 of 80
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 3,117member
    So why are so many people opposed to Apple providing parents with modern, more effective tools to help them oversee their kid's use of iOS devices?

    The arguments seem to be black and white thinking and mostly ideologically driven.
    Habi_tweet
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