Apple's MacBook sales growth may outpace both iPhone and iPad this year

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 55
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    danvm said:
    danvm said:
    slurpy said:
    That's quite a bold statement given it's going to take something major for the 2015 MBP and even more for the 2012 Air users to upgrade given how bad the problems with the keyboards are, and waste of money touch bar, and dongle hell, and and and...
    95% of people in the real world have zero problems with the keyboard, touchbar, "dongle-hell", etc. It's a small, viciously vocal group on the internet that sets this narrative, backed by the anti-Apple cottage industry that makes a killing from anti-Apple articles, Youtube videos, etc. The new MBPs are fantastic, forward looking machines, easily the best I've ever owned. Keyboard takes a bit of getting used to, but I can now type FASTER, with less effort, and more quietly- I'd never go back. Also, this "dongle-hell" is a hyper-sensationalized, hilariously overblown narrative. Most people will at MOST need a $10 usb-C to usb-A adapter. Funny how I see tons and tons of the new MB/MBPs out in the wild, and literally zero "dongles. 

    But either way, continue with the "new Apple hardware is a disaster" narrative. It's not like it's an original thought- it's lazy, and people like you have been claiming this for the past couple decades with every new Mac update. 
    Personally I don't like the feedback in my MBP 2017.  In my line of work I have to work with different brand of notebooks, and Thinkpad's are still the best without question.  In quality, I have seen many posts of people with keyboards issues.  And many of those comments didn't came from anti-Apple people,

    https://daringfireball.net/linked/2017/10/17/johnston-macbook-keyboard

    Again, Lenovo makes durable keyboards, and even they are spill resistant. 



    I don't understand the "getting used to".  Why do you need to get used to a good keyboard?  I didn't need to get used to Thinkpad keyboards or Apple trackpads.  They are good since the first day you work on them.  Maybe they aren't that good at all, and you just get used to it.


    Beyond any shadow of a doubt Lenovo keyboards are better than Apple's - For Me!
    Apple's keyboards and the MacBooks they sit on are designed to be powerful yet ultra light, thin and portable.  So, the keyboard has to be extremely light and, particularly, thin.

    Very simply Lenovo ThinkPads (at least the the T and W series) did not go that route.  They are heavier and thicker -- which produces obvious disadvantages in portability but enables other advantages such as "better" keyboards.

    For me, I think comparing a T series Lenovo ThinkPad to an Apple MacBook (of any variety) is like comparing an SUV to a sports car.  Which is "better" depends on your needs and preferences...

    For myself, I simply don't need a highly portable laptop.  And, the resulting comprises required make it relatively unappealing to me.  I would rather have outstanding durability, cooling and a keyboard with outstanding feel and travel.  But, if/when my needs change that assessment will change.   While I love my Thinkpads, I would hate to have to lug them to school or the office everyday...  Hell, it's a chore just to lug it into the living room.


    You should try the T480s or the X1 Carbon.  They are very thin, didn't sacrifice keyboard quality and are spill resistant.
    "For myself, I simply don't need a highly portable laptop.  And, the resulting comprises required make it relatively unappealing to me.  I would rather have outstanding durability, cooling and a keyboard with outstanding feel and travel.  But, if/when my needs change that assessment will change.   While I love my Thinkpads, I would hate to have to lug them to school or the office everyday...  Hell, it's a chore just to lug it into the living room."

    Sounds to me you may be better off with a desktop.  
    I have both.   But the desktop mostly sits there these days being lonely.  I use it mostly as a server to store files I want to keep long term. 

    I suspect that most consumer laptops are used more as desktops.   And, from my experience in IT, I would say 80-90% of business laptops were used more as desktops.  Actually I have seen several places where laptops are used more for status than anything else -- where managers get laptops and staff get desktops.

    My 5th grade grandson does the same.  He opens up "his" laptop, does his home work, then heads down to the X-Box to play Fortnite.
    canukstorm
  • Reply 42 of 55
    thttht Posts: 5,352member
    danvm said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    danvm said:

    Following the same line, all the praise the people in the internet made on how good Apple trackpads maybe aren't true, since "it's just that the Internet loves to make small issues seem bigger than they really are".  Right?

    Wrong. 

    It is human nature for the 1% to whine endlessly on the internet when something isn’t working for them. They then go on to attract haters from other platforms, and people who just line to join in because they’re a little bit sad. Meanwhile, the 99% who don’t have a problem with the keyboard will just carry on using it without saying anything. 

    When you search in the internet and articles, there is a long list of stories of how good Apple trackpads are, even the 201-2017 models that are different from 2015 and previous models.  Same for screen quality.  The keyboard is a different story in a negative way, in tactile feedback and quality.  Even some Apple bloggers made comments about it,

    https://sixcolors.com/link/2017/10/theres-no-i-in-keyboard/
    https://marco.org/2017/11/24/fixing-the-macbook-pro

    https://daringfireball.net/linked/2017/10/17/johnston-macbook-keyboard

    Are they in the 1% you mention before?

    It’s unanswerable without real data, and searching the Internet rarely actually gives you any real data. If Apple updates the keyboard this year, obviously, it was a real problem as the current design would either be too expensive to support or it is driving down customer satisfaction.

    But those bloggers you mention are 0.001% types. Gruber and Snell or old time keyboard fans. When I say old time, like 20 years ago. I think Gruber has stashed away 4 or 5 1990s era Apple Extended keyboards so that he can continue to use that design until drivers stop working for it, And he may end up writing a driver for it. Who does that? Not even the 1%. Snell is also a fan of the full size, full travel keyboard design. Arment is even more hypercritical than Siracusa is. Whether they are right in their criticisms is a unknowable with actual data.

    Most people just just use a device and move on their merry way, without problems. Me, I’m all in on the iPad virtual keyboard even.

  • Reply 43 of 55
    asciiascii Posts: 5,936member
    One thing I would like to see Apple do with their pro laptop keyboard is add PgUp and PgDn keys (yes I know you can do it with fn+arrows but I suspect it is commonly used enough so as to justify it's own key).


  • Reply 44 of 55
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member
    danvm said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    danvm said:

    Following the same line, all the praise the people in the internet made on how good Apple trackpads maybe aren't true, since "it's just that the Internet loves to make small issues seem bigger than they really are".  Right?

    Wrong. 

    It is human nature for the 1% to whine endlessly on the internet when something isn’t working for them. They then go on to attract haters from other platforms, and people who just line to join in because they’re a little bit sad. Meanwhile, the 99% who don’t have a problem with the keyboard will just carry on using it without saying anything. 




    When you search in the internet and articles, there is a long list of stories of how good Apple trackpads are, even the 201-2017 models that are different from 2015 and previous models.  Same for screen quality.  The keyboard is a different story in a negative way, in tactile feedback and quality.  Even some Apple bloggers made comments about it,

    https://sixcolors.com/link/2017/10/theres-no-i-in-keyboard/
    https://marco.org/2017/11/24/fixing-the-macbook-pro

    https://daringfireball.net/linked/2017/10/17/johnston-macbook-keyboard

    Are they in the 1% you mention before?

    When I first got my MacBook Pro, I thought the keyboard was too shallow. A few days later, my typing speed had increased beyond what it was on lesser keyboards, and the pains I used to get in my fingers and wrist had gone too. Mrs Rayz2016 also commmented that my keyboard was much quieter because I wasn’t hitting the keys so hard. 

    So what happened? Well, I think I changed my typing style. I no longer had to bash the keys, so now I just glide across them, tapping lightly. I can now crank out book pages in less time and with fewer mistakes. More importantly, the keyboard is less of a strain on my hands and wrists, and less of an annoyance for Mrs Rayz2016 when I’m working in the kitchen. 

    If you’re a keyboard thumper, this keyboard is not for you. 
    If you cannot adapt then Apple kit is not for you. 
    If you believe that you shouldn’t have to adapt then I feel sorry for you. 

    Apple’s next generation of customers are used to typing on flat surfaces with little or no tactile feedback. Apple is adapting for them, not you.
    I have a Surface Pro 4, and already get used to the keyboard.  If had to use my MBP 2017 everyday, I'll adapt to it too.  Does it means that it's a good keyboard?  Not at all.  When I work with Thinkpads, I notice the difference, and you can read of in many articles in the internet.  If you only work with Macbooks, definitively you'll adapt to it's keyboard, but that doesn't means it's the best in the market.

    Ah, so you think by quoting a famous blogger or two, that means that there is a problem with the keyboard? I think it means you've found two bloggers who don't like the keyboard. I did a search for folk who like the new Apple keyboard and found half a dozen users straight away who love it. Again, it's an internet search so it doesn’t actually prove anything one way or the other. 



  • Reply 45 of 55
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    My solution for Apple's so called 'failed keyboard'?

    The MB keyboard was designed to work in a light, thin, highly portable laptop.  And, it does that well.   But, it is still a compromise solution from the so called "old" style keyboards with lots of tactile feel and a mid to long travel of the keys.  In addition, squeezing the individual keys together to fit into an 11" or 13" laptop also sacrifices functionality and usability.

    But, while the compromise was made to meet the needs of those who depend on their laptop during their travels away from their home or office, the majority of laptops and the majority of their use (in my experience) is not out on road but in the home or office where it normally resides...

    Businesses solved that problem long ago with a highly functional dock.
    The laptop simply sits on the dock, the lid is never opened.  To use it the user simply presses a button on the dock to start the laptop -- and then uses a full keyboard and large, high end screen to do their work as if they were using a desktop.  (And, with an eGPU this could be an even more powerful solution)

    ...  That is the best of all worlds for the user:  High portability and High usability and functionality.
    edited March 2018 canukstorm
  • Reply 46 of 55
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,387member
    tht said:
    danvm said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    danvm said:

    Following the same line, all the praise the people in the internet made on how good Apple trackpads maybe aren't true, since "it's just that the Internet loves to make small issues seem bigger than they really are".  Right?

    Wrong. 

    It is human nature for the 1% to whine endlessly on the internet when something isn’t working for them. They then go on to attract haters from other platforms, and people who just line to join in because they’re a little bit sad. Meanwhile, the 99% who don’t have a problem with the keyboard will just carry on using it without saying anything. 

    When you search in the internet and articles, there is a long list of stories of how good Apple trackpads are, even the 201-2017 models that are different from 2015 and previous models.  Same for screen quality.  The keyboard is a different story in a negative way, in tactile feedback and quality.  Even some Apple bloggers made comments about it,

    https://sixcolors.com/link/2017/10/theres-no-i-in-keyboard/
    https://marco.org/2017/11/24/fixing-the-macbook-pro

    https://daringfireball.net/linked/2017/10/17/johnston-macbook-keyboard

    Are they in the 1% you mention before?

    It’s unanswerable without real data, and searching the Internet rarely actually gives you any real data. If Apple updates the keyboard this year, obviously, it was a real problem as the current design would either be too expensive to support or it is driving down customer satisfaction.

    I find interesting that Apple had to release a KB article on how to clean keyboards (Do people really need instructions on how to use a can of compressed air?), and it's focused on MacBook 2015 and 2016, which are the models that include the new butterfly switches. 
    https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205662
    Does it makes sense to have a KB article as this if people had not been reporting issues?  I agree with you that there is no real data.  But, would you expect Apple to release those numbers?

    But those bloggers you mention are 0.001% types. Gruber and Snell or old time keyboard fans. When I say old time, like 20 years ago. I think Gruber has stashed away 4 or 5 1990s era Apple Extended keyboards so that he can continue to use that design until drivers stop working for it, And he may end up writing a driver for it. Who does that? Not even the 1%. Snell is also a fan of the full size, full travel keyboard design. Arment is even more hypercritical than Siracusa is. Whether they are right in their criticisms is a unknowable with actual data.

    Most people just just use a device and move on their merry way, without problems. Me, I’m all in on the iPad virtual keyboard even.

    How do you know that people "just use a device and move on their merry way, without problems" if there is no real data?

  • Reply 47 of 55
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,387member
    Rayz2016 said:
    danvm said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    danvm said:

    Following the same line, all the praise the people in the internet made on how good Apple trackpads maybe aren't true, since "it's just that the Internet loves to make small issues seem bigger than they really are".  Right?

    Wrong. 

    It is human nature for the 1% to whine endlessly on the internet when something isn’t working for them. They then go on to attract haters from other platforms, and people who just line to join in because they’re a little bit sad. Meanwhile, the 99% who don’t have a problem with the keyboard will just carry on using it without saying anything. 




    When you search in the internet and articles, there is a long list of stories of how good Apple trackpads are, even the 201-2017 models that are different from 2015 and previous models.  Same for screen quality.  The keyboard is a different story in a negative way, in tactile feedback and quality.  Even some Apple bloggers made comments about it,

    https://sixcolors.com/link/2017/10/theres-no-i-in-keyboard/
    https://marco.org/2017/11/24/fixing-the-macbook-pro

    https://daringfireball.net/linked/2017/10/17/johnston-macbook-keyboard

    Are they in the 1% you mention before?

    When I first got my MacBook Pro, I thought the keyboard was too shallow. A few days later, my typing speed had increased beyond what it was on lesser keyboards, and the pains I used to get in my fingers and wrist had gone too. Mrs Rayz2016 also commmented that my keyboard was much quieter because I wasn’t hitting the keys so hard. 

    So what happened? Well, I think I changed my typing style. I no longer had to bash the keys, so now I just glide across them, tapping lightly. I can now crank out book pages in less time and with fewer mistakes. More importantly, the keyboard is less of a strain on my hands and wrists, and less of an annoyance for Mrs Rayz2016 when I’m working in the kitchen. 

    If you’re a keyboard thumper, this keyboard is not for you. 
    If you cannot adapt then Apple kit is not for you. 
    If you believe that you shouldn’t have to adapt then I feel sorry for you. 

    Apple’s next generation of customers are used to typing on flat surfaces with little or no tactile feedback. Apple is adapting for them, not you.
    I have a Surface Pro 4, and already get used to the keyboard.  If had to use my MBP 2017 everyday, I'll adapt to it too.  Does it means that it's a good keyboard?  Not at all.  When I work with Thinkpads, I notice the difference, and you can read of in many articles in the internet.  If you only work with Macbooks, definitively you'll adapt to it's keyboard, but that doesn't means it's the best in the market.

    Ah, so you think by quoting a famous blogger or two, that means that there is a problem with the keyboard? I think it means you've found two bloggers who don't like the keyboard. I did a search for folk who like the new Apple keyboard and found half a dozen users straight away who love it. Again, it's an internet search so it doesn’t actually prove anything one way or the other. 



    I post the quotes as examples, from a long list you will find in the internet.  That's something I haven't seen before, until now with Siri.  And in my personal experience, I found it to be true, specially if I compare it to Thinkpad keyboards.  But what you said it's true, an internet search don't prove anything.  I suppose that when I read about how good MacBook Pro's are, or how precise Apple trackpads are, or how good Apple screens are, it's not true at all, right?
    edited March 2018
  • Reply 48 of 55
    thttht Posts: 5,352member
    danvm said:
    tht said:
    danvm said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    danvm said:

    Following the same line, all the praise the people in the internet made on how good Apple trackpads maybe aren't true, since "it's just that the Internet loves to make small issues seem bigger than they really are".  Right?

    Wrong. 

    It is human nature for the 1% to whine endlessly on the internet when something isn’t working for them. They then go on to attract haters from other platforms, and people who just line to join in because they’re a little bit sad. Meanwhile, the 99% who don’t have a problem with the keyboard will just carry on using it without saying anything. 

    When you search in the internet and articles, there is a long list of stories of how good Apple trackpads are, even the 201-2017 models that are different from 2015 and previous models.  Same for screen quality.  The keyboard is a different story in a negative way, in tactile feedback and quality.  Even some Apple bloggers made comments about it,

    https://sixcolors.com/link/2017/10/theres-no-i-in-keyboard/
    https://marco.org/2017/11/24/fixing-the-macbook-pro

    https://daringfireball.net/linked/2017/10/17/johnston-macbook-keyboard

    Are they in the 1% you mention before?

    It’s unanswerable without real data, and searching the Internet rarely actually gives you any real data. If Apple updates the keyboard this year, obviously, it was a real problem as the current design would either be too expensive to support or it is driving down customer satisfaction.

    I find interesting that Apple had to release a KB article on how to clean keyboards (Do people really need instructions on how to use a can of compressed air?), and it's focused on MacBook 2015 and 2016, which are the models that include the new butterfly switches. 
    https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205662
    Does it makes sense to have a KB article as this if people had not been reporting issues?  I agree with you that there is no real data.  But, would you expect Apple to release those numbers?

    But those bloggers you mention are 0.001% types. Gruber and Snell or old time keyboard fans. When I say old time, like 20 years ago. I think Gruber has stashed away 4 or 5 1990s era Apple Extended keyboards so that he can continue to use that design until drivers stop working for it, And he may end up writing a driver for it. Who does that? Not even the 1%. Snell is also a fan of the full size, full travel keyboard design. Arment is even more hypercritical than Siracusa is. Whether they are right in their criticisms is a unknowable with actual data.

    Most people just just use a device and move on their merry way, without problems. Me, I’m all in on the iPad virtual keyboard even.

    How do you know that people "just use a device and move on their merry way, without problems" if there is no real data?


    Apple has sold about 20m Macs, with around 75% of them being laptops, in 2017 and the MB12 has been around since 2015 or about 3 years this April. You think all those customers have problems with the new keyboard design? And that we wouldn’t hear much more of a ruckus if so?

    The knowledge base article doesn’t really prove much. It could just be symptomatic of a new design with different issues, or that Apple has still to work out QA and acceptance for the new keyboard design. The old scissors design is decades old with most of its design and manufacturing issues uncovered, and even then, there were issues with key caps popping off, staying stuck, not registering, etc. It’s just a matter of what fraction of the keyboards have problems. It’s unknowable. I do think it is in the sub 5% range, if not sub 1% range.

    In today’s hyperconnected world, I wouldn’t be surprised if the old scissors design had more problems, we just didn’t hear about them, while today, everyone gets to read about the most minute issue possible, within a few minutes of it happening. 
  • Reply 49 of 55
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 2,680member
    My solution for Apple's so called 'failed keyboard'?

    The MB keyboard was designed to work in a light, thin, highly portable laptop.  And, it does that well.   But, it is still a compromise solution from the so called "old" style keyboards with lots of tactile feel and a mid to long travel of the keys.  In addition, squeezing the individual keys together to fit into an 11" or 13" laptop also sacrifices functionality and usability.

    But, while the compromise was made to meet the needs of those who depend on their laptop during their travels away from their home or office, the majority of laptops and the majority of their use (in my experience) is not out on road but in the home or office where it normally resides...

    Businesses solved that problem long ago with a highly functional dock.
    The laptop simply sits on the dock, the lid is never opened.  To use it the user simply presses a button on the dock to start the laptop -- and then uses a full keyboard and large, high end screen to do their work as if they were using a desktop.  (And, with an eGPU this could be an even more powerful solution)

    ...  That is the best of all worlds for the user:  High portability and High usability and functionality.
    Curious to see users' reactions when / if Apple moves their Macs to these types of keyboards:

    http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2018/03/apple-invents-a-keyless-keyboards-for-macs-and-ipad-pro-with-morphing-interface-options-for-gaming-music-more.html
  • Reply 50 of 55
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,387member
    tht said:
    danvm said:
    tht said:
    danvm said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    danvm said:

    Following the same line, all the praise the people in the internet made on how good Apple trackpads maybe aren't true, since "it's just that the Internet loves to make small issues seem bigger than they really are".  Right?

    Wrong. 

    It is human nature for the 1% to whine endlessly on the internet when something isn’t working for them. They then go on to attract haters from other platforms, and people who just line to join in because they’re a little bit sad. Meanwhile, the 99% who don’t have a problem with the keyboard will just carry on using it without saying anything. 

    When you search in the internet and articles, there is a long list of stories of how good Apple trackpads are, even the 201-2017 models that are different from 2015 and previous models.  Same for screen quality.  The keyboard is a different story in a negative way, in tactile feedback and quality.  Even some Apple bloggers made comments about it,

    https://sixcolors.com/link/2017/10/theres-no-i-in-keyboard/
    https://marco.org/2017/11/24/fixing-the-macbook-pro

    https://daringfireball.net/linked/2017/10/17/johnston-macbook-keyboard

    Are they in the 1% you mention before?

    It’s unanswerable without real data, and searching the Internet rarely actually gives you any real data. If Apple updates the keyboard this year, obviously, it was a real problem as the current design would either be too expensive to support or it is driving down customer satisfaction.

    I find interesting that Apple had to release a KB article on how to clean keyboards (Do people really need instructions on how to use a can of compressed air?), and it's focused on MacBook 2015 and 2016, which are the models that include the new butterfly switches. 
    https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205662
    Does it makes sense to have a KB article as this if people had not been reporting issues?  I agree with you that there is no real data.  But, would you expect Apple to release those numbers?

    But those bloggers you mention are 0.001% types. Gruber and Snell or old time keyboard fans. When I say old time, like 20 years ago. I think Gruber has stashed away 4 or 5 1990s era Apple Extended keyboards so that he can continue to use that design until drivers stop working for it, And he may end up writing a driver for it. Who does that? Not even the 1%. Snell is also a fan of the full size, full travel keyboard design. Arment is even more hypercritical than Siracusa is. Whether they are right in their criticisms is a unknowable with actual data.

    Most people just just use a device and move on their merry way, without problems. Me, I’m all in on the iPad virtual keyboard even.

    How do you know that people "just use a device and move on their merry way, without problems" if there is no real data?


    Apple has sold about 20m Macs, with around 75% of them being laptops, in 2017 and the MB12 has been around since 2015 or about 3 years this April. You think all those customers have problems with the new keyboard design? And that we wouldn’t hear much more of a ruckus if so?

    I didn't say that all users have problems, but based on what I have read, it's pretty common.  And if you think you haven't hear of it too much, just do a quick search in Google. 

    The knowledge base article doesn’t really prove much. It could just be symptomatic of a new design with different issues, or that Apple has still to work out QA and acceptance for the new keyboard design. The old scissors design is decades old with most of its design and manufacturing issues uncovered, and even then, there were issues with key caps popping off, staying stuck, not registering, etc. It’s just a matter of what fraction of the keyboards have problems. It’s unknowable. I do think it is in the sub 5% range, if not sub 1% range.

    Apple tried make something better at replacing the scissor design, but looks it didn't was for the best.  I think what they did replacing touchpads with Force Touch Pad went great.  But I'm not seeing the same results, based in the feedback in the internet, including many Apple followers.  I don't know where you got the 1% - 5% numbers, since you said that it's unknowable the number of people with issues.  There is a possibility that it could be more, right?

    In today’s hyperconnected world, I wouldn’t be surprised if the old scissors design had more problems, we just didn’t hear about them, while today, everyone gets to read about the most minute issue possible, within a few minutes of it happening.
    Have you consider that keyboard issues are real, and not because of the "hyperconnected world"?
  • Reply 51 of 55
    kevin keekevin kee Posts: 1,289member
    As I am typing this, I try to find a reason to hate the new keyboard. But, none. It's comfy and quiet, just the way I love it.
  • Reply 52 of 55
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    My solution for Apple's so called 'failed keyboard'?

    The MB keyboard was designed to work in a light, thin, highly portable laptop.  And, it does that well.   But, it is still a compromise solution from the so called "old" style keyboards with lots of tactile feel and a mid to long travel of the keys.  In addition, squeezing the individual keys together to fit into an 11" or 13" laptop also sacrifices functionality and usability.

    But, while the compromise was made to meet the needs of those who depend on their laptop during their travels away from their home or office, the majority of laptops and the majority of their use (in my experience) is not out on road but in the home or office where it normally resides...

    Businesses solved that problem long ago with a highly functional dock.
    The laptop simply sits on the dock, the lid is never opened.  To use it the user simply presses a button on the dock to start the laptop -- and then uses a full keyboard and large, high end screen to do their work as if they were using a desktop.  (And, with an eGPU this could be an even more powerful solution)

    ...  That is the best of all worlds for the user:  High portability and High usability and functionality.
    Curious to see users' reactions when / if Apple moves their Macs to these types of keyboards:

    http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2018/03/apple-invents-a-keyless-keyboards-for-macs-and-ipad-pro-with-morphing-interface-options-for-gaming-music-more.html
    The devil is in the details -- which Apple excels at.   So I wouldn't want to count them out.

    But regardless, these enhanced virtual keyboards are essentially artificial constructs trying to emulate the real thing...  I think the analogy is the creation Tang for the 1960's space program:  It was meant to replace a real fruit juice.   And, while it looked like it and tasted like it (maybe even better) and was even vitamin enriched, in the end, it just wasn't able to match the real thing. 
  • Reply 53 of 55
    thttht Posts: 5,352member
    danvm said:
    tht said:
    danvm said:
    tht said:
    danvm said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    danvm said:

    Following the same line, all the praise the people in the internet made on how good Apple trackpads maybe aren't true, since "it's just that the Internet loves to make small issues seem bigger than they really are".  Right?

    Wrong. 

    It is human nature for the 1% to whine endlessly on the internet when something isn’t working for them. They then go on to attract haters from other platforms, and people who just line to join in because they’re a little bit sad. Meanwhile, the 99% who don’t have a problem with the keyboard will just carry on using it without saying anything. 

    When you search in the internet and articles, there is a long list of stories of how good Apple trackpads are, even the 201-2017 models that are different from 2015 and previous models.  Same for screen quality.  The keyboard is a different story in a negative way, in tactile feedback and quality.  Even some Apple bloggers made comments about it,

    https://sixcolors.com/link/2017/10/theres-no-i-in-keyboard/
    https://marco.org/2017/11/24/fixing-the-macbook-pro

    https://daringfireball.net/linked/2017/10/17/johnston-macbook-keyboard

    Are they in the 1% you mention before?

    It’s unanswerable without real data, and searching the Internet rarely actually gives you any real data. If Apple updates the keyboard this year, obviously, it was a real problem as the current design would either be too expensive to support or it is driving down customer satisfaction.

    I find interesting that Apple had to release a KB article on how to clean keyboards (Do people really need instructions on how to use a can of compressed air?), and it's focused on MacBook 2015 and 2016, which are the models that include the new butterfly switches. 
    https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205662
    Does it makes sense to have a KB article as this if people had not been reporting issues?  I agree with you that there is no real data.  But, would you expect Apple to release those numbers?

    But those bloggers you mention are 0.001% types. Gruber and Snell or old time keyboard fans. When I say old time, like 20 years ago. I think Gruber has stashed away 4 or 5 1990s era Apple Extended keyboards so that he can continue to use that design until drivers stop working for it, And he may end up writing a driver for it. Who does that? Not even the 1%. Snell is also a fan of the full size, full travel keyboard design. Arment is even more hypercritical than Siracusa is. Whether they are right in their criticisms is a unknowable with actual data.

    Most people just just use a device and move on their merry way, without problems. Me, I’m all in on the iPad virtual keyboard even.

    How do you know that people "just use a device and move on their merry way, without problems" if there is no real data?


    Apple has sold about 20m Macs, with around 75% of them being laptops, in 2017 and the MB12 has been around since 2015 or about 3 years this April. You think all those customers have problems with the new keyboard design? And that we wouldn’t hear much more of a ruckus if so?

    I didn't say that all users have problems, but based on what I have read, it's pretty common.  And if you think you haven't hear of it too much, just do a quick search in Google. 

    The knowledge base article doesn’t really prove much. It could just be symptomatic of a new design with different issues, or that Apple has still to work out QA and acceptance for the new keyboard design. The old scissors design is decades old with most of its design and manufacturing issues uncovered, and even then, there were issues with key caps popping off, staying stuck, not registering, etc. It’s just a matter of what fraction of the keyboards have problems. It’s unknowable. I do think it is in the sub 5% range, if not sub 1% range.

    Apple tried make something better at replacing the scissor design, but looks it didn't was for the best.  I think what they did replacing touchpads with Force Touch Pad went great.  But I'm not seeing the same results, based in the feedback in the internet, including many Apple followers.  I don't know where you got the 1% - 5% numbers, since you said that it's unknowable the number of people with issues.  There is a possibility that it could be more, right?

    In today’s hyperconnected world, I wouldn’t be surprised if the old scissors design had more problems, we just didn’t hear about them, while today, everyone gets to read about the most minute issue possible, within a few minutes of it happening.
    Have you consider that keyboard issues are real, and not because of the "hyperconnected world"?
    Sure, some users have issues with them, but it’s unknowable whether this keyboard issue is anything above and beyond the usual problems with keyboards.

    If it is a failure of the design, it would be more widespread than people’s testimonials on the Internet, Apple would implement a fix for existing users, and change the design as quick as possible. Maybe they will do this or do some of this and that would be a real sign that this new keyboard design is failure. Finding people that have problems with it on the Internet? Not so much. There are millions of these keyboards in people’s hands. There will be failures when so many are being produced, and this design requires more precise manufacturing and is new.

    If it is more than normal manufacturing defects, maybe it was just the initial run, and Apple has been improving the manufacturing and the issues with the keyboard are getting less and less. Who knows. Unknowable without actual data.
  • Reply 54 of 55
    thttht Posts: 5,352member
    My solution for Apple's so called 'failed keyboard'?

    The MB keyboard was designed to work in a light, thin, highly portable laptop.  And, it does that well.   But, it is still a compromise solution from the so called "old" style keyboards with lots of tactile feel and a mid to long travel of the keys.  In addition, squeezing the individual keys together to fit into an 11" or 13" laptop also sacrifices functionality and usability.

    But, while the compromise was made to meet the needs of those who depend on their laptop during their travels away from their home or office, the majority of laptops and the majority of their use (in my experience) is not out on road but in the home or office where it normally resides...

    Businesses solved that problem long ago with a highly functional dock.
    The laptop simply sits on the dock, the lid is never opened.  To use it the user simply presses a button on the dock to start the laptop -- and then uses a full keyboard and large, high end screen to do their work as if they were using a desktop.  (And, with an eGPU this could be an even more powerful solution)

    ...  That is the best of all worlds for the user:  High portability and High usability and functionality.
    Curious to see users' reactions when / if Apple moves their Macs to these types of keyboards:

    http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2018/03/apple-invents-a-keyless-keyboards-for-macs-and-ipad-pro-with-morphing-interface-options-for-gaming-music-more.html

    I currently use my iPad Pro 10.5” flat on a table in landscape orientation, only using the software keyboard.

    1. It would be nice to have arrow, command and more meta keys. It has undo, redo, paste and other special functions, but the meta keys would allow for more functions. Move the emoji and microphone keys to the special function area, and put in command and option keys there. The 2 finger cursor is ok, mainly because of some bugs here and there. Apple would have to cleanup the iOS smart selection code. Arrow keys would be nice for single character or single line text insertion point movement.

    2. Fingerprints. You don’t notice it when the display is lit, but with it off, it’s nothing but fingerprint oil. They’d need a way to clean it up.

    3. You can’t rest your fingers on it. So it’ll need force sensitivity or some other software way to let you rest your fingers on it without entering input.

    If they do it, I think it would have to be 11” wide like the existing keyboard, by pressure/force sensitive, and have an easy way to wipe fingerprints off it.

    For iPads, I’d like to see a 5:4 aspect ratio so that there is more vertical space for apps. The scrolling inside text boxes needs to be fixed.
  • Reply 55 of 55
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,387member
    tht said:
    danvm said:
    tht said:
    danvm said:
    tht said:
    danvm said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    danvm said:

    Following the same line, all the praise the people in the internet made on how good Apple trackpads maybe aren't true, since "it's just that the Internet loves to make small issues seem bigger than they really are".  Right?

    Wrong. 

    It is human nature for the 1% to whine endlessly on the internet when something isn’t working for them. They then go on to attract haters from other platforms, and people who just line to join in because they’re a little bit sad. Meanwhile, the 99% who don’t have a problem with the keyboard will just carry on using it without saying anything. 

    When you search in the internet and articles, there is a long list of stories of how good Apple trackpads are, even the 201-2017 models that are different from 2015 and previous models.  Same for screen quality.  The keyboard is a different story in a negative way, in tactile feedback and quality.  Even some Apple bloggers made comments about it,

    https://sixcolors.com/link/2017/10/theres-no-i-in-keyboard/
    https://marco.org/2017/11/24/fixing-the-macbook-pro

    https://daringfireball.net/linked/2017/10/17/johnston-macbook-keyboard

    Are they in the 1% you mention before?

    It’s unanswerable without real data, and searching the Internet rarely actually gives you any real data. If Apple updates the keyboard this year, obviously, it was a real problem as the current design would either be too expensive to support or it is driving down customer satisfaction.

    I find interesting that Apple had to release a KB article on how to clean keyboards (Do people really need instructions on how to use a can of compressed air?), and it's focused on MacBook 2015 and 2016, which are the models that include the new butterfly switches. 
    https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205662
    Does it makes sense to have a KB article as this if people had not been reporting issues?  I agree with you that there is no real data.  But, would you expect Apple to release those numbers?

    But those bloggers you mention are 0.001% types. Gruber and Snell or old time keyboard fans. When I say old time, like 20 years ago. I think Gruber has stashed away 4 or 5 1990s era Apple Extended keyboards so that he can continue to use that design until drivers stop working for it, And he may end up writing a driver for it. Who does that? Not even the 1%. Snell is also a fan of the full size, full travel keyboard design. Arment is even more hypercritical than Siracusa is. Whether they are right in their criticisms is a unknowable with actual data.

    Most people just just use a device and move on their merry way, without problems. Me, I’m all in on the iPad virtual keyboard even.

    How do you know that people "just use a device and move on their merry way, without problems" if there is no real data?


    Apple has sold about 20m Macs, with around 75% of them being laptops, in 2017 and the MB12 has been around since 2015 or about 3 years this April. You think all those customers have problems with the new keyboard design? And that we wouldn’t hear much more of a ruckus if so?

    I didn't say that all users have problems, but based on what I have read, it's pretty common.  And if you think you haven't hear of it too much, just do a quick search in Google. 

    The knowledge base article doesn’t really prove much. It could just be symptomatic of a new design with different issues, or that Apple has still to work out QA and acceptance for the new keyboard design. The old scissors design is decades old with most of its design and manufacturing issues uncovered, and even then, there were issues with key caps popping off, staying stuck, not registering, etc. It’s just a matter of what fraction of the keyboards have problems. It’s unknowable. I do think it is in the sub 5% range, if not sub 1% range.

    Apple tried make something better at replacing the scissor design, but looks it didn't was for the best.  I think what they did replacing touchpads with Force Touch Pad went great.  But I'm not seeing the same results, based in the feedback in the internet, including many Apple followers.  I don't know where you got the 1% - 5% numbers, since you said that it's unknowable the number of people with issues.  There is a possibility that it could be more, right?

    In today’s hyperconnected world, I wouldn’t be surprised if the old scissors design had more problems, we just didn’t hear about them, while today, everyone gets to read about the most minute issue possible, within a few minutes of it happening.
    Have you consider that keyboard issues are real, and not because of the "hyperconnected world"?
    Sure, some users have issues with them, but it’s unknowable whether this keyboard issue is anything above and beyond the usual problems with keyboards.

    If it is a failure of the design, it would be more widespread than people’s testimonials on the Internet, Apple would implement a fix for existing users, and change the design as quick as possible. Maybe they will do this or do some of this and that would be a real sign that this new keyboard design is failure. Finding people that have problems with it on the Internet? Not so much. There are millions of these keyboards in people’s hands. There will be failures when so many are being produced, and this design requires more precise manufacturing and is new.

    If it is more than normal manufacturing defects, maybe it was just the initial run, and Apple has been improving the manufacturing and the issues with the keyboard are getting less and less. Who knows. Unknowable without actual data.
    I'm not sure Apple will respond as quickly as you say to fix the keyboard issues.  For example, took years and lawsuits for them to acknowledge they had issues with the display adapters in MacBook Pros,
    https://www.computerworld.com/article/2887172/after-years-of-complaints-apple-launches-macbook-pro-video-repair-program.html

    There are other cases where the didn't made public a "repair program" for the MacPro, even though there was a long list of people having issues. 
    https://9to5mac.com/2016/02/06/apple-mac-pro-repair-program-graphics-video/

    Another case is with the displays, that was announced in 2017, and covered devices as back as 2012.
    https://www.macrumors.com/2017/02/24/apple-extended-anti-reflective-repair-program/

    We'll have to wait to see how Apple work keyboard issues.  And I agree there are many millions of the 2015-2017 devices in customer hands, but there are much more devices of MBP 2015 and earlier, and other brands as Lenovo, and you don't see customers with the same problems as these new  models. Don't you think something isn't right? 



    edited March 2018
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