Apple has two-year head start on Android in 3D sensing arms race, report says

2

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 46
    fallenjtfallenjt Posts: 3,976member
    By the looks of the Galaxy S9 it seems like a 3-4 year lead.
    With 2 thick bands on top and bottom, 2-D face scanner and a touch ID in the back of the phone? LOL...what have you been smoking?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 22 of 46
    fallenjtfallenjt Posts: 3,976member
    avon b7 said:
    Last year Huawei was doing live demos of 3D sensing systems with ten times the resolution of FaceID. Huawei has been working with Finisar for years and have even collaborated on product development in the past.

    The iPhone X is the only Apple phone with FaceID at present and demand for it will not sky rocket in the coming months. The units necessary for some Android destined 3D sensing equipment probably already exist.

    There is the possibility of industry wide supply constraints but I imagine that some Android manufacturers should be able to get models out without too many problems.

    The Huawei P20 series will be announced next week and will be a reference point. If it ships without the Point Cloud Depth setup, it will lend strength to this rumour. If it ships with it, some manufacturers may be covered while others are locked out for a time.

    Just a few days to wait.
    Who gives a shit about Huawei, a China spying company!
    magman1979watto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 46
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,568member
    avon b7 said:
    mjtomlin said:
    avon b7 said:
    Last year Huawei was doing live demos of 3D sensing systems with ten times the resolution of FaceID. Huawei has been working with Finisar for years and have even collaborated on product development in the past.

    The iPhone X is the only Apple phone with FaceID at present and demand for it will not sky rocket in the coming months. The units necessary for some Android destined 3D sensing equipment probably already exist.

    There is the possibility of industry wide supply constraints but I imagine that some Android manufacturers should be able to get models out without too many problems.

    The Huawei P20 series will be announced next week and will be a reference point. If it ships without the Point Cloud Depth setup, it will lend strength to this rumour. If it ships with it, some manufacturers may be covered while others are locked out for a time.

    Just a few days to wait.

    Making a few demo or reference units is not the same as being able to mass produce them. That is where bottlenecks usually show up. There are many, many technologies "still in the lab", because it is extremely hard to manufacture them at scale.

    The one thing most companies don't have, that Apple has, is the money to throw at those issues, because they can demand a premium price for their products. Plus the cost to manufacture is minimal when you're selling a product at the scale Apple does.
    Having had long experience with VCSEL use and the manufacturers involved, I doubt Huawei in particular will have the same issues as other handset manufacturers with regards to hardware supply. There are lots of companies involved in 3D depth sensing.

    The demos last year showed a complete hardware solution. The software will be another matter, though.

    No doubt there will be issues with supply but I find it hard to imagine Huawei suffering although the truth is anything could happen and we won't know for sure until the 27th.

    Current handset use of 3D depth sensing seems to have a limited range. I suppose work is being carried out to give phones an increased range for things like AR.


    So, on the 27th will we get a mea culpa from you if their is no FaceID equivalent in the Pro 20?
    magman1979StrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 46
    fallenjtfallenjt Posts: 3,976member
    maestro64 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Last year Huawei was doing live demos of 3D sensing systems with ten times the resolution of FaceID. Huawei has been working with Finisar for years and have even collaborated on product development in the past.

    The iPhone X is the only Apple phone with FaceID at present and demand for it will not sky rocket in the coming months. The units necessary for some Android destined 3D sensing equipment probably already exist.

    There is the possibility of industry wide supply constraints but I imagine that some Android manufacturers should be able to get models out without too many problems.

    The Huawei P20 series will be announced next week and will be a reference point. If it ships without the Point Cloud Depth sensor, it will lend strength to this rumour. If it ships with it, some manufacturers may be covered while others are locked out for a time.

    Just a few days to wait.
    Too bad Huawei is still stuck with the Android junk.
    You'd have to expand on that a little.

    On the subject of VCSEL alone, Finisar does more business with the communications industry (including Huawei of course) than with Apple or smartphones. Going forward, this will change as more handset manufacturers include 3D depth sensing. Apple has invested in Finisar for future orders.

    Last year Huawei had problems with some Finisar equipment (VCSEL related) which lead to Finisar being disqualified as a supplier for a time. Huawei then took its business to Lumentum and was happy with the results. Finisar corrected the issues and was requalified by Huawei but Lumentum slashed prices to keep favour with Huawei.

    I don't know how this will leave the playing field but I think Huawei shouldn't have difficulties with supply of VCSELs for the phones it will announce soon if they have 3D depth sensing. There are other elements in the manufacturing process though that could complicate things. The number one difficulty behind 3D depth sensing for authentication isn't the hardware but the software behind it.

    I'm speaking from memory on the Huawei/Finisar relationship. It might be a little off as a result but the gist is there.

    Here is the fine point you miss, Apple sung a ton of money in to Finisar, i.e. locked up supply. Finisar is now obligated to supply parts to Apple first before others who come later. You are correct they Apple has never had a direct business relationship with Finisar since they were in two different industries. But money talks and everything else walks. Huawei made the mistake of not put money into the negotiation to ensure they have supply. The reason the entire industry will stay behind it not having the technology it not having access to the supply of parts. This is why having supply agreements, with deep relationship and money sprinkled on top make a world of difference.

    Everyone else has to fight for any capacity which is left, which means cost go up for everyone else.
    I heard that a few years ago with Touch ID and bam, Android came out a few months later with the same Touch ID.
    Anyway, Face ID caught Android phone manufacturers completely off guard because they tried to work on fingerprint sensor under the screen instead. Apple all the sudden abandoned the Touch ID and talked it down as a less secured technology. That really hit Android phone manufacturers hard. And also, the notch...lol.
    magman1979watto_cobra
  • Reply 25 of 46
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,488member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    mjtomlin said:
    avon b7 said:
    Last year Huawei was doing live demos of 3D sensing systems with ten times the resolution of FaceID. Huawei has been working with Finisar for years and have even collaborated on product development in the past.

    The iPhone X is the only Apple phone with FaceID at present and demand for it will not sky rocket in the coming months. The units necessary for some Android destined 3D sensing equipment probably already exist.

    There is the possibility of industry wide supply constraints but I imagine that some Android manufacturers should be able to get models out without too many problems.

    The Huawei P20 series will be announced next week and will be a reference point. If it ships without the Point Cloud Depth setup, it will lend strength to this rumour. If it ships with it, some manufacturers may be covered while others are locked out for a time.

    Just a few days to wait.

    Making a few demo or reference units is not the same as being able to mass produce them. That is where bottlenecks usually show up. There are many, many technologies "still in the lab", because it is extremely hard to manufacture them at scale.

    The one thing most companies don't have, that Apple has, is the money to throw at those issues, because they can demand a premium price for their products. Plus the cost to manufacture is minimal when you're selling a product at the scale Apple does.
    Having had long experience with VCSEL use and the manufacturers involved, I doubt Huawei in particular will have the same issues as other handset manufacturers with regards to hardware supply. There are lots of companies involved in 3D depth sensing.

    The demos last year showed a complete hardware solution. The software will be another matter, though.

    No doubt there will be issues with supply but I find it hard to imagine Huawei suffering although the truth is anything could happen and we won't know for sure until the 27th.

    Current handset use of 3D depth sensing seems to have a limited range. I suppose work is being carried out to give phones an increased range for things like AR.


    So, on the 27th will we get a mea culpa from you if their is no FaceID equivalent in the Pro 20?
    Mea culpa for what exactly?

    Huawei has detailed the technology. It has demoed the technology. It has stated that it goes much further than FaceID and Animojis.

    The only remaining questions are on what phone it will appear and if it works well.

    As I don't know the answers to those questions, all I can do is speculate, just like everyone else.

    Were you expecting me to state the P20 series would have this technology even though I don't actually know?

    One week from the announcement?

    Why would I do that?


  • Reply 26 of 46
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,568member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    mjtomlin said:
    avon b7 said:
    Last year Huawei was doing live demos of 3D sensing systems with ten times the resolution of FaceID. Huawei has been working with Finisar for years and have even collaborated on product development in the past.

    The iPhone X is the only Apple phone with FaceID at present and demand for it will not sky rocket in the coming months. The units necessary for some Android destined 3D sensing equipment probably already exist.

    There is the possibility of industry wide supply constraints but I imagine that some Android manufacturers should be able to get models out without too many problems.

    The Huawei P20 series will be announced next week and will be a reference point. If it ships without the Point Cloud Depth setup, it will lend strength to this rumour. If it ships with it, some manufacturers may be covered while others are locked out for a time.

    Just a few days to wait.

    Making a few demo or reference units is not the same as being able to mass produce them. That is where bottlenecks usually show up. There are many, many technologies "still in the lab", because it is extremely hard to manufacture them at scale.

    The one thing most companies don't have, that Apple has, is the money to throw at those issues, because they can demand a premium price for their products. Plus the cost to manufacture is minimal when you're selling a product at the scale Apple does.
    Having had long experience with VCSEL use and the manufacturers involved, I doubt Huawei in particular will have the same issues as other handset manufacturers with regards to hardware supply. There are lots of companies involved in 3D depth sensing.

    The demos last year showed a complete hardware solution. The software will be another matter, though.

    No doubt there will be issues with supply but I find it hard to imagine Huawei suffering although the truth is anything could happen and we won't know for sure until the 27th.

    Current handset use of 3D depth sensing seems to have a limited range. I suppose work is being carried out to give phones an increased range for things like AR.


    So, on the 27th will we get a mea culpa from you if their is no FaceID equivalent in the Pro 20?
    Mea culpa for what exactly?

    Huawei has detailed the technology. It has demoed the technology. It has stated that it goes much further than FaceID and Animojis.

    The only remaining questions are on what phone it will appear and if it works well.

    As I don't know the answers to those questions, all I can do is speculate, just like everyone else.

    Were you expecting me to state the P20 series would have this technology even though I don't actually know?

    One week from the announcement?

    Why would I do that?


    Uhm, you are playing what if, and Apple actually delivered...
    magman1979StrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 46
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,488member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    mjtomlin said:
    avon b7 said:
    Last year Huawei was doing live demos of 3D sensing systems with ten times the resolution of FaceID. Huawei has been working with Finisar for years and have even collaborated on product development in the past.

    The iPhone X is the only Apple phone with FaceID at present and demand for it will not sky rocket in the coming months. The units necessary for some Android destined 3D sensing equipment probably already exist.

    There is the possibility of industry wide supply constraints but I imagine that some Android manufacturers should be able to get models out without too many problems.

    The Huawei P20 series will be announced next week and will be a reference point. If it ships without the Point Cloud Depth setup, it will lend strength to this rumour. If it ships with it, some manufacturers may be covered while others are locked out for a time.

    Just a few days to wait.

    Making a few demo or reference units is not the same as being able to mass produce them. That is where bottlenecks usually show up. There are many, many technologies "still in the lab", because it is extremely hard to manufacture them at scale.

    The one thing most companies don't have, that Apple has, is the money to throw at those issues, because they can demand a premium price for their products. Plus the cost to manufacture is minimal when you're selling a product at the scale Apple does.
    Having had long experience with VCSEL use and the manufacturers involved, I doubt Huawei in particular will have the same issues as other handset manufacturers with regards to hardware supply. There are lots of companies involved in 3D depth sensing.

    The demos last year showed a complete hardware solution. The software will be another matter, though.

    No doubt there will be issues with supply but I find it hard to imagine Huawei suffering although the truth is anything could happen and we won't know for sure until the 27th.

    Current handset use of 3D depth sensing seems to have a limited range. I suppose work is being carried out to give phones an increased range for things like AR.


    So, on the 27th will we get a mea culpa from you if their is no FaceID equivalent in the Pro 20?
    Mea culpa for what exactly?

    Huawei has detailed the technology. It has demoed the technology. It has stated that it goes much further than FaceID and Animojis.

    The only remaining questions are on what phone it will appear and if it works well.

    As I don't know the answers to those questions, all I can do is speculate, just like everyone else.

    Were you expecting me to state the P20 series would have this technology even though I don't actually know?

    One week from the announcement?

    Why would I do that?


    Uhm, you are playing what if, and Apple actually delivered...
    No. It's not 'what if', just 'if' and what does Apple 'delivering' have to do with anything?

    This piece is about the impact of VCSEL supply constraints on Android handsets.

    It could be true - or not. 

    From there you are free to give your opinion.

    I have given mine. Finisar is a very long term partner of Huawei and especially for VSCELs. Huawei has even co-developed VCSELs with Finisar - long before Apple's interest in the technology. They had to win back Huawei's confidence after hardware quality issues lead Huawei to source from a competitor. There are lots of companies involved in this tech and little of it is actually new.

    Huawei actually 'delivered' facial recognition before Apple. The only difference is that they didn't use it to unlock the phone and used a different system. It was heavily integrated into the AI where Huawei 'delivered' too, btw. Just like they delivered on dual cameras, fast charging, battery chemistry and a lot of other areas.

    They have stated that the Point Cloud Depth Camera will not only be used as a biometric feature but also a sub-milimetre small object 3D modeller.

    Apple's investment in Finisar is to increase production with a guarantee of capacity for future phones.

    I doubt Huawei has got this far without a guarantee of enough supply for its needs.

    But that's just my opinion not a statement of fact. We'll see what they actually 'deliver' next week ;-)

    Independently of that though, of far more importance is how it actually performs.
  • Reply 28 of 46
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,568member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    mjtomlin said:
    avon b7 said:
    Last year Huawei was doing live demos of 3D sensing systems with ten times the resolution of FaceID. Huawei has been working with Finisar for years and have even collaborated on product development in the past.

    The iPhone X is the only Apple phone with FaceID at present and demand for it will not sky rocket in the coming months. The units necessary for some Android destined 3D sensing equipment probably already exist.

    There is the possibility of industry wide supply constraints but I imagine that some Android manufacturers should be able to get models out without too many problems.

    The Huawei P20 series will be announced next week and will be a reference point. If it ships without the Point Cloud Depth setup, it will lend strength to this rumour. If it ships with it, some manufacturers may be covered while others are locked out for a time.

    Just a few days to wait.

    Making a few demo or reference units is not the same as being able to mass produce them. That is where bottlenecks usually show up. There are many, many technologies "still in the lab", because it is extremely hard to manufacture them at scale.

    The one thing most companies don't have, that Apple has, is the money to throw at those issues, because they can demand a premium price for their products. Plus the cost to manufacture is minimal when you're selling a product at the scale Apple does.
    Having had long experience with VCSEL use and the manufacturers involved, I doubt Huawei in particular will have the same issues as other handset manufacturers with regards to hardware supply. There are lots of companies involved in 3D depth sensing.

    The demos last year showed a complete hardware solution. The software will be another matter, though.

    No doubt there will be issues with supply but I find it hard to imagine Huawei suffering although the truth is anything could happen and we won't know for sure until the 27th.

    Current handset use of 3D depth sensing seems to have a limited range. I suppose work is being carried out to give phones an increased range for things like AR.


    So, on the 27th will we get a mea culpa from you if their is no FaceID equivalent in the Pro 20?
    Mea culpa for what exactly?

    Huawei has detailed the technology. It has demoed the technology. It has stated that it goes much further than FaceID and Animojis.

    The only remaining questions are on what phone it will appear and if it works well.

    As I don't know the answers to those questions, all I can do is speculate, just like everyone else.

    Were you expecting me to state the P20 series would have this technology even though I don't actually know?

    One week from the announcement?

    Why would I do that?


    Uhm, you are playing what if, and Apple actually delivered...
    No. It's not 'what if', just 'if' and what does Apple 'delivering' have to do with anything?

    This piece is about the impact of VCSEL supply constraints on Android handsets.

    It could be true - or not. 

    From there you are free to give your opinion.

    I have given mine. Finisar is a very long term partner of Huawei and especially for VSCELs. Huawei has even co-developed VCSELs with Finisar - long before Apple's interest in the technology. They had to win back Huawei's confidence after hardware quality issues lead Huawei to source from a competitor. There are lots of companies involved in this tech and little of it is actually new.

    Huawei actually 'delivered' facial recognition before Apple. The only difference is that they didn't use it to unlock the phone and used a different system. It was heavily integrated into the AI where Huawei 'delivered' too, btw. Just like they delivered on dual cameras, fast charging, battery chemistry and a lot of other areas.

    They have stated that the Point Cloud Depth Camera will not only be used as a biometric feature but also a sub-milimetre small object 3D modeller.

    Apple's investment in Finisar is to increase production with a guarantee of capacity for future phones.

    I doubt Huawei has got this far without a guarantee of enough supply for its needs.

    But that's just my opinion not a statement of fact. We'll see what they actually 'deliver' next week ;-)

    Independently of that though, of far more importance is how it actually performs.
    The season of moving goalposts...
    StrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 29 of 46
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,692member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    mjtomlin said:
    avon b7 said:
    Last year Huawei was doing live demos of 3D sensing systems with ten times the resolution of FaceID. Huawei has been working with Finisar for years and have even collaborated on product development in the past.

    The iPhone X is the only Apple phone with FaceID at present and demand for it will not sky rocket in the coming months. The units necessary for some Android destined 3D sensing equipment probably already exist.

    There is the possibility of industry wide supply constraints but I imagine that some Android manufacturers should be able to get models out without too many problems.

    The Huawei P20 series will be announced next week and will be a reference point. If it ships without the Point Cloud Depth setup, it will lend strength to this rumour. If it ships with it, some manufacturers may be covered while others are locked out for a time.

    Just a few days to wait.

    Making a few demo or reference units is not the same as being able to mass produce them. That is where bottlenecks usually show up. There are many, many technologies "still in the lab", because it is extremely hard to manufacture them at scale.

    The one thing most companies don't have, that Apple has, is the money to throw at those issues, because they can demand a premium price for their products. Plus the cost to manufacture is minimal when you're selling a product at the scale Apple does.
    Having had long experience with VCSEL use and the manufacturers involved, I doubt Huawei in particular will have the same issues as other handset manufacturers with regards to hardware supply. There are lots of companies involved in 3D depth sensing.

    The demos last year showed a complete hardware solution. The software will be another matter, though.

    No doubt there will be issues with supply but I find it hard to imagine Huawei suffering although the truth is anything could happen and we won't know for sure until the 27th.

    Current handset use of 3D depth sensing seems to have a limited range. I suppose work is being carried out to give phones an increased range for things like AR.


    So, on the 27th will we get a mea culpa from you if their is no FaceID equivalent in the Pro 20?
    Mea culpa for what exactly?

    Huawei has detailed the technology. It has demoed the technology. It has stated that it goes much further than FaceID and Animojis.

    The only remaining questions are on what phone it will appear and if it works well.

    As I don't know the answers to those questions, all I can do is speculate, just like everyone else.

    Were you expecting me to state the P20 series would have this technology even though I don't actually know?

    One week from the announcement?

    Why would I do that?
    That’s like if I said I’m going to be the world’s first trillionaire and then followed up by saying the only remaining question is how I’m going to do it.

    Apple announced and demoed it on a device that was up for preorder days later and the up for sale just weeks later, which then had excessive independent testing.
    StrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 30 of 46
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,488member
    Soli said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    mjtomlin said:
    avon b7 said:
    Last year Huawei was doing live demos of 3D sensing systems with ten times the resolution of FaceID. Huawei has been working with Finisar for years and have even collaborated on product development in the past.

    The iPhone X is the only Apple phone with FaceID at present and demand for it will not sky rocket in the coming months. The units necessary for some Android destined 3D sensing equipment probably already exist.

    There is the possibility of industry wide supply constraints but I imagine that some Android manufacturers should be able to get models out without too many problems.

    The Huawei P20 series will be announced next week and will be a reference point. If it ships without the Point Cloud Depth setup, it will lend strength to this rumour. If it ships with it, some manufacturers may be covered while others are locked out for a time.

    Just a few days to wait.

    Making a few demo or reference units is not the same as being able to mass produce them. That is where bottlenecks usually show up. There are many, many technologies "still in the lab", because it is extremely hard to manufacture them at scale.

    The one thing most companies don't have, that Apple has, is the money to throw at those issues, because they can demand a premium price for their products. Plus the cost to manufacture is minimal when you're selling a product at the scale Apple does.
    Having had long experience with VCSEL use and the manufacturers involved, I doubt Huawei in particular will have the same issues as other handset manufacturers with regards to hardware supply. There are lots of companies involved in 3D depth sensing.

    The demos last year showed a complete hardware solution. The software will be another matter, though.

    No doubt there will be issues with supply but I find it hard to imagine Huawei suffering although the truth is anything could happen and we won't know for sure until the 27th.

    Current handset use of 3D depth sensing seems to have a limited range. I suppose work is being carried out to give phones an increased range for things like AR.


    So, on the 27th will we get a mea culpa from you if their is no FaceID equivalent in the Pro 20?
    Mea culpa for what exactly?

    Huawei has detailed the technology. It has demoed the technology. It has stated that it goes much further than FaceID and Animojis.

    The only remaining questions are on what phone it will appear and if it works well.

    As I don't know the answers to those questions, all I can do is speculate, just like everyone else.

    Were you expecting me to state the P20 series would have this technology even though I don't actually know?

    One week from the announcement?

    Why would I do that?
    That’s like if I said I’m going to be the world’s first trillionaire and then followed up by saying the only remaining question is how I’m going to do it.

    Apple announced and demoed it on a device that was up for preorder days later and the up for sale just weeks later, which then had excessive independent testing.
    You lost me a bit there Soli.

    No one (on the outside) knows what will happen. I haven't actually affirmed (trillionaires) anything beyond what has been stated (and demoed) by the company itself.

    If you were referring to what the company has stated, It's not about how to do it. According to the company its already done. Not only done but details have been put on the table and it has been demoed.

    The only remaining question is when (on which phone) it will appear.

    Huawei releases four flagships a year. The next flagship announcement is next week. We will have to wait and see what actually happens then.

    The technology was actually presented at an Honor event. There is a remote possibility that it could ship on the next Honor phone but all the rumours point to the Huawei P20 series.

    And talking about possibilities, we could also run with the idea presented here. Not enough manufacturing capacity. That, as I mentioned at the start, is something I don't see affecting Huawei but it's impossible to know for sure, at least today. Next week we will know more.



  • Reply 31 of 46
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,568member
    avon b7 said:
    Soli said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    mjtomlin said:
    avon b7 said:
    Last year Huawei was doing live demos of 3D sensing systems with ten times the resolution of FaceID. Huawei has been working with Finisar for years and have even collaborated on product development in the past.

    The iPhone X is the only Apple phone with FaceID at present and demand for it will not sky rocket in the coming months. The units necessary for some Android destined 3D sensing equipment probably already exist.

    There is the possibility of industry wide supply constraints but I imagine that some Android manufacturers should be able to get models out without too many problems.

    The Huawei P20 series will be announced next week and will be a reference point. If it ships without the Point Cloud Depth setup, it will lend strength to this rumour. If it ships with it, some manufacturers may be covered while others are locked out for a time.

    Just a few days to wait.

    Making a few demo or reference units is not the same as being able to mass produce them. That is where bottlenecks usually show up. There are many, many technologies "still in the lab", because it is extremely hard to manufacture them at scale.

    The one thing most companies don't have, that Apple has, is the money to throw at those issues, because they can demand a premium price for their products. Plus the cost to manufacture is minimal when you're selling a product at the scale Apple does.
    Having had long experience with VCSEL use and the manufacturers involved, I doubt Huawei in particular will have the same issues as other handset manufacturers with regards to hardware supply. There are lots of companies involved in 3D depth sensing.

    The demos last year showed a complete hardware solution. The software will be another matter, though.

    No doubt there will be issues with supply but I find it hard to imagine Huawei suffering although the truth is anything could happen and we won't know for sure until the 27th.

    Current handset use of 3D depth sensing seems to have a limited range. I suppose work is being carried out to give phones an increased range for things like AR.


    So, on the 27th will we get a mea culpa from you if their is no FaceID equivalent in the Pro 20?
    Mea culpa for what exactly?

    Huawei has detailed the technology. It has demoed the technology. It has stated that it goes much further than FaceID and Animojis.

    The only remaining questions are on what phone it will appear and if it works well.

    As I don't know the answers to those questions, all I can do is speculate, just like everyone else.

    Were you expecting me to state the P20 series would have this technology even though I don't actually know?

    One week from the announcement?

    Why would I do that?
    That’s like if I said I’m going to be the world’s first trillionaire and then followed up by saying the only remaining question is how I’m going to do it.

    Apple announced and demoed it on a device that was up for preorder days later and the up for sale just weeks later, which then had excessive independent testing.
    You lost me a bit there Soli.

    No one (on the outside) knows what will happen. I haven't actually affirmed (trillionaires) anything beyond what has been stated (and demoed) by the company itself.

    If you were referring to what the company has stated, It's not about how to do it. According to the company its already done. Not only done but details have been put on the table and it has been demoed.

    The only remaining question is when (on which phone) it will appear.

    Huawei releases four flagships a year. The next flagship announcement is next week. We will have to wait and see what actually happens then.

    The technology was actually presented at an Honor event. There is a remote possibility that it could ship on the next Honor phone but all the rumours point to the Huawei P20 series.

    And talking about possibilities, we could also run with the idea presented here. Not enough manufacturing capacity. That, as I mentioned at the start, is something I don't see affecting Huawei but it's impossible to know for sure, at least today. Next week we will know more.



    There are NO rumors at all of Face Identification for the P20 Pro at this time, and most images continue to show a chin on all of the P20's, indicating touch identification.

    There are recent leaks of the triple camera system with a 40 MP color imager for the P20 Pro, but that is a sales driver for only a very small fraction of available buyers. 

    I don't even need to speculate about what Apple has in store for FaceID in September. It's obvious that Apple / Finisar have been able to scale production such that there will be three models with FaceID, and Apple is likely driving down the BOM for FaceID hardware at the same time. The only question will be what improvements in size reduction and capability that Apple will deliver with the 2nd generation FaceID hardware.
    edited March 2018 watto_cobra
  • Reply 32 of 46
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 7,130member
    avon b7 said:
    Last year Huawei was doing live demos of 3D sensing systems with ten times the resolution of FaceID. Huawei has been working with Finisar for years and have even collaborated on product development in the past.
    Officially the GatorGuy of Huawei... Sorry but it doesn't count as first until it ships.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 33 of 46
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 7,130member

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Last year Huawei was doing live demos of 3D sensing systems with ten times the resolution of FaceID. Huawei has been working with Finisar for years and have even collaborated on product development in the past.

    The iPhone X is the only Apple phone with FaceID at present and demand for it will not sky rocket in the coming months. The units necessary for some Android destined 3D sensing equipment probably already exist.

    There is the possibility of industry wide supply constraints but I imagine that some Android manufacturers should be able to get models out without too many problems.

    The Huawei P20 series will be announced next week and will be a reference point. If it ships without the Point Cloud Depth sensor, it will lend strength to this rumour. If it ships with it, some manufacturers may be covered while others are locked out for a time.

    Just a few days to wait.
    Too bad Huawei is still stuck with the Android junk.
    You'd have to expand on that a little.
    Sure -- Huawei makes gimmicky android knockoffs, like this fried-chicken-branded winner:


    edited March 2018 watto_cobra
  • Reply 34 of 46
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,568member
    avon b7 said:
    Last year Huawei was doing live demos of 3D sensing systems with ten times the resolution of FaceID. Huawei has been working with Finisar for years and have even collaborated on product development in the past.
    Officially the GatorGuy of Huawei... Sorry but it doesn't count as first until it ships.
    It is my firm belief, that Avon b7 has a delightful imaginary friend in Huawei.
    edited March 2018 watto_cobra
  • Reply 35 of 46
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 7,130member
    avon b7 said:
    Soli said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    mjtomlin said:
    avon b7 said:
    Last year Huawei was doing live demos of 3D sensing systems with ten times the resolution of FaceID. Huawei has been working with Finisar for years and have even collaborated on product development in the past.

    The iPhone X is the only Apple phone with FaceID at present and demand for it will not sky rocket in the coming months. The units necessary for some Android destined 3D sensing equipment probably already exist.

    There is the possibility of industry wide supply constraints but I imagine that some Android manufacturers should be able to get models out without too many problems.

    The Huawei P20 series will be announced next week and will be a reference point. If it ships without the Point Cloud Depth setup, it will lend strength to this rumour. If it ships with it, some manufacturers may be covered while others are locked out for a time.

    Just a few days to wait.

    Making a few demo or reference units is not the same as being able to mass produce them. That is where bottlenecks usually show up. There are many, many technologies "still in the lab", because it is extremely hard to manufacture them at scale.

    The one thing most companies don't have, that Apple has, is the money to throw at those issues, because they can demand a premium price for their products. Plus the cost to manufacture is minimal when you're selling a product at the scale Apple does.
    Having had long experience with VCSEL use and the manufacturers involved, I doubt Huawei in particular will have the same issues as other handset manufacturers with regards to hardware supply. There are lots of companies involved in 3D depth sensing.

    The demos last year showed a complete hardware solution. The software will be another matter, though.

    No doubt there will be issues with supply but I find it hard to imagine Huawei suffering although the truth is anything could happen and we won't know for sure until the 27th.

    Current handset use of 3D depth sensing seems to have a limited range. I suppose work is being carried out to give phones an increased range for things like AR.


    So, on the 27th will we get a mea culpa from you if their is no FaceID equivalent in the Pro 20?
    Mea culpa for what exactly?

    Huawei has detailed the technology. It has demoed the technology. It has stated that it goes much further than FaceID and Animojis.

    The only remaining questions are on what phone it will appear and if it works well.

    As I don't know the answers to those questions, all I can do is speculate, just like everyone else.

    Were you expecting me to state the P20 series would have this technology even though I don't actually know?

    One week from the announcement?

    Why would I do that?
    That’s like if I said I’m going to be the world’s first trillionaire and then followed up by saying the only remaining question is how I’m going to do it.

    Apple announced and demoed it on a device that was up for preorder days later and the up for sale just weeks later, which then had excessive independent testing.
    If you were referring to what the company has stated, It's not about how to do it. According to the company its already done. Not only done but details have been put on the table and it has been demoed.

    The only remaining question is when (on which phone) it will appear.
    What part about scaling a tech from a demo to millions and millions of units, and the production challenges therein, are you not getting? Done isn't done until it's done.
    Soliwatto_cobra
  • Reply 36 of 46
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,488member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Soli said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    mjtomlin said:
    avon b7 said:
    Last year Huawei was doing live demos of 3D sensing systems with ten times the resolution of FaceID. Huawei has been working with Finisar for years and have even collaborated on product development in the past.

    The iPhone X is the only Apple phone with FaceID at present and demand for it will not sky rocket in the coming months. The units necessary for some Android destined 3D sensing equipment probably already exist.

    There is the possibility of industry wide supply constraints but I imagine that some Android manufacturers should be able to get models out without too many problems.

    The Huawei P20 series will be announced next week and will be a reference point. If it ships without the Point Cloud Depth setup, it will lend strength to this rumour. If it ships with it, some manufacturers may be covered while others are locked out for a time.

    Just a few days to wait.

    Making a few demo or reference units is not the same as being able to mass produce them. That is where bottlenecks usually show up. There are many, many technologies "still in the lab", because it is extremely hard to manufacture them at scale.

    The one thing most companies don't have, that Apple has, is the money to throw at those issues, because they can demand a premium price for their products. Plus the cost to manufacture is minimal when you're selling a product at the scale Apple does.
    Having had long experience with VCSEL use and the manufacturers involved, I doubt Huawei in particular will have the same issues as other handset manufacturers with regards to hardware supply. There are lots of companies involved in 3D depth sensing.

    The demos last year showed a complete hardware solution. The software will be another matter, though.

    No doubt there will be issues with supply but I find it hard to imagine Huawei suffering although the truth is anything could happen and we won't know for sure until the 27th.

    Current handset use of 3D depth sensing seems to have a limited range. I suppose work is being carried out to give phones an increased range for things like AR.


    So, on the 27th will we get a mea culpa from you if their is no FaceID equivalent in the Pro 20?
    Mea culpa for what exactly?

    Huawei has detailed the technology. It has demoed the technology. It has stated that it goes much further than FaceID and Animojis.

    The only remaining questions are on what phone it will appear and if it works well.

    As I don't know the answers to those questions, all I can do is speculate, just like everyone else.

    Were you expecting me to state the P20 series would have this technology even though I don't actually know?

    One week from the announcement?

    Why would I do that?
    That’s like if I said I’m going to be the world’s first trillionaire and then followed up by saying the only remaining question is how I’m going to do it.

    Apple announced and demoed it on a device that was up for preorder days later and the up for sale just weeks later, which then had excessive independent testing.
    You lost me a bit there Soli.

    No one (on the outside) knows what will happen. I haven't actually affirmed (trillionaires) anything beyond what has been stated (and demoed) by the company itself.

    If you were referring to what the company has stated, It's not about how to do it. According to the company its already done. Not only done but details have been put on the table and it has been demoed.

    The only remaining question is when (on which phone) it will appear.

    Huawei releases four flagships a year. The next flagship announcement is next week. We will have to wait and see what actually happens then.

    The technology was actually presented at an Honor event. There is a remote possibility that it could ship on the next Honor phone but all the rumours point to the Huawei P20 series.

    And talking about possibilities, we could also run with the idea presented here. Not enough manufacturing capacity. That, as I mentioned at the start, is something I don't see affecting Huawei but it's impossible to know for sure, at least today. Next week we will know more.



    There are NO rumors at all of Face Identification for the P20 Pro at this time, and most images continue to show a chin on all of the P20's, indicating touch identification.

    There are recent leaks of the triple camera system with a 40 MP color imager for the P20 Pro, but that is a sales driver for only a very small fraction of available buyers. 

    I don't even need to speculate about what Apple has in store for FaceID in September. It's obvious that Apple / Finisar have been able to scale production such that there will be three models with FaceID, and Apple is likely driving down the BOM for FaceID hardware at the same time. The only question will be what improvements in size reduction and capability that Apple will deliver with the 2nd generation FaceID hardware.
    No rumours?

    "Today, we’ve got an important leak for the Huawei P20 lineup. If you’re a regular, you will know that the lineup is consistently rumored with Facial recognition."

    https://wccftech.com/huawei-p20-lite-notch-fcc/

    That came from the first link on a Google search!
  • Reply 37 of 46
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,568member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Soli said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    mjtomlin said:
    avon b7 said:
    Last year Huawei was doing live demos of 3D sensing systems with ten times the resolution of FaceID. Huawei has been working with Finisar for years and have even collaborated on product development in the past.

    The iPhone X is the only Apple phone with FaceID at present and demand for it will not sky rocket in the coming months. The units necessary for some Android destined 3D sensing equipment probably already exist.

    There is the possibility of industry wide supply constraints but I imagine that some Android manufacturers should be able to get models out without too many problems.

    The Huawei P20 series will be announced next week and will be a reference point. If it ships without the Point Cloud Depth setup, it will lend strength to this rumour. If it ships with it, some manufacturers may be covered while others are locked out for a time.

    Just a few days to wait.

    Making a few demo or reference units is not the same as being able to mass produce them. That is where bottlenecks usually show up. There are many, many technologies "still in the lab", because it is extremely hard to manufacture them at scale.

    The one thing most companies don't have, that Apple has, is the money to throw at those issues, because they can demand a premium price for their products. Plus the cost to manufacture is minimal when you're selling a product at the scale Apple does.
    Having had long experience with VCSEL use and the manufacturers involved, I doubt Huawei in particular will have the same issues as other handset manufacturers with regards to hardware supply. There are lots of companies involved in 3D depth sensing.

    The demos last year showed a complete hardware solution. The software will be another matter, though.

    No doubt there will be issues with supply but I find it hard to imagine Huawei suffering although the truth is anything could happen and we won't know for sure until the 27th.

    Current handset use of 3D depth sensing seems to have a limited range. I suppose work is being carried out to give phones an increased range for things like AR.


    So, on the 27th will we get a mea culpa from you if their is no FaceID equivalent in the Pro 20?
    Mea culpa for what exactly?

    Huawei has detailed the technology. It has demoed the technology. It has stated that it goes much further than FaceID and Animojis.

    The only remaining questions are on what phone it will appear and if it works well.

    As I don't know the answers to those questions, all I can do is speculate, just like everyone else.

    Were you expecting me to state the P20 series would have this technology even though I don't actually know?

    One week from the announcement?

    Why would I do that?
    That’s like if I said I’m going to be the world’s first trillionaire and then followed up by saying the only remaining question is how I’m going to do it.

    Apple announced and demoed it on a device that was up for preorder days later and the up for sale just weeks later, which then had excessive independent testing.
    You lost me a bit there Soli.

    No one (on the outside) knows what will happen. I haven't actually affirmed (trillionaires) anything beyond what has been stated (and demoed) by the company itself.

    If you were referring to what the company has stated, It's not about how to do it. According to the company its already done. Not only done but details have been put on the table and it has been demoed.

    The only remaining question is when (on which phone) it will appear.

    Huawei releases four flagships a year. The next flagship announcement is next week. We will have to wait and see what actually happens then.

    The technology was actually presented at an Honor event. There is a remote possibility that it could ship on the next Honor phone but all the rumours point to the Huawei P20 series.

    And talking about possibilities, we could also run with the idea presented here. Not enough manufacturing capacity. That, as I mentioned at the start, is something I don't see affecting Huawei but it's impossible to know for sure, at least today. Next week we will know more.



    There are NO rumors at all of Face Identification for the P20 Pro at this time, and most images continue to show a chin on all of the P20's, indicating touch identification.

    There are recent leaks of the triple camera system with a 40 MP color imager for the P20 Pro, but that is a sales driver for only a very small fraction of available buyers. 

    I don't even need to speculate about what Apple has in store for FaceID in September. It's obvious that Apple / Finisar have been able to scale production such that there will be three models with FaceID, and Apple is likely driving down the BOM for FaceID hardware at the same time. The only question will be what improvements in size reduction and capability that Apple will deliver with the 2nd generation FaceID hardware.
    No rumours?

    "Today, we’ve got an important leak for the Huawei P20 lineup. If you’re a regular, you will know that the lineup is consistently rumored with Facial recognition."

    https://wccftech.com/huawei-p20-lite-notch-fcc/

    That came from the first link on a Google search!
    All based on the original demonstration, and acknowledged "in the future". 

    I'm not seeing face identification happening on any of these models, in which case, all of the differentiation with the rest of the Android OS herd is just the extra camera.
    BFD.

    Still, if I'm wrong, I will be more than happy to post my mea culpa.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 38 of 46
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,488member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Soli said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    mjtomlin said:
    avon b7 said:
    Last year Huawei was doing live demos of 3D sensing systems with ten times the resolution of FaceID. Huawei has been working with Finisar for years and have even collaborated on product development in the past.

    The iPhone X is the only Apple phone with FaceID at present and demand for it will not sky rocket in the coming months. The units necessary for some Android destined 3D sensing equipment probably already exist.

    There is the possibility of industry wide supply constraints but I imagine that some Android manufacturers should be able to get models out without too many problems.

    The Huawei P20 series will be announced next week and will be a reference point. If it ships without the Point Cloud Depth setup, it will lend strength to this rumour. If it ships with it, some manufacturers may be covered while others are locked out for a time.

    Just a few days to wait.

    Making a few demo or reference units is not the same as being able to mass produce them. That is where bottlenecks usually show up. There are many, many technologies "still in the lab", because it is extremely hard to manufacture them at scale.

    The one thing most companies don't have, that Apple has, is the money to throw at those issues, because they can demand a premium price for their products. Plus the cost to manufacture is minimal when you're selling a product at the scale Apple does.
    Having had long experience with VCSEL use and the manufacturers involved, I doubt Huawei in particular will have the same issues as other handset manufacturers with regards to hardware supply. There are lots of companies involved in 3D depth sensing.

    The demos last year showed a complete hardware solution. The software will be another matter, though.

    No doubt there will be issues with supply but I find it hard to imagine Huawei suffering although the truth is anything could happen and we won't know for sure until the 27th.

    Current handset use of 3D depth sensing seems to have a limited range. I suppose work is being carried out to give phones an increased range for things like AR.


    So, on the 27th will we get a mea culpa from you if their is no FaceID equivalent in the Pro 20?
    Mea culpa for what exactly?

    Huawei has detailed the technology. It has demoed the technology. It has stated that it goes much further than FaceID and Animojis.

    The only remaining questions are on what phone it will appear and if it works well.

    As I don't know the answers to those questions, all I can do is speculate, just like everyone else.

    Were you expecting me to state the P20 series would have this technology even though I don't actually know?

    One week from the announcement?

    Why would I do that?
    That’s like if I said I’m going to be the world’s first trillionaire and then followed up by saying the only remaining question is how I’m going to do it.

    Apple announced and demoed it on a device that was up for preorder days later and the up for sale just weeks later, which then had excessive independent testing.
    You lost me a bit there Soli.

    No one (on the outside) knows what will happen. I haven't actually affirmed (trillionaires) anything beyond what has been stated (and demoed) by the company itself.

    If you were referring to what the company has stated, It's not about how to do it. According to the company its already done. Not only done but details have been put on the table and it has been demoed.

    The only remaining question is when (on which phone) it will appear.

    Huawei releases four flagships a year. The next flagship announcement is next week. We will have to wait and see what actually happens then.

    The technology was actually presented at an Honor event. There is a remote possibility that it could ship on the next Honor phone but all the rumours point to the Huawei P20 series.

    And talking about possibilities, we could also run with the idea presented here. Not enough manufacturing capacity. That, as I mentioned at the start, is something I don't see affecting Huawei but it's impossible to know for sure, at least today. Next week we will know more.



    There are NO rumors at all of Face Identification for the P20 Pro at this time, and most images continue to show a chin on all of the P20's, indicating touch identification.

    There are recent leaks of the triple camera system with a 40 MP color imager for the P20 Pro, but that is a sales driver for only a very small fraction of available buyers. 

    I don't even need to speculate about what Apple has in store for FaceID in September. It's obvious that Apple / Finisar have been able to scale production such that there will be three models with FaceID, and Apple is likely driving down the BOM for FaceID hardware at the same time. The only question will be what improvements in size reduction and capability that Apple will deliver with the 2nd generation FaceID hardware.
    No rumours?

    "Today, we’ve got an important leak for the Huawei P20 lineup. If you’re a regular, you will know that the lineup is consistently rumored with Facial recognition."

    https://wccftech.com/huawei-p20-lite-notch-fcc/

    That came from the first link on a Google search!
    All based on the original demonstration, and acknowledged "in the future". 

    I'm not seeing face identification happening on any of these models, in which case, all of the differentiation with the rest of the Android OS herd is just the extra camera.
    BFD.

    Still, if I'm wrong, I will be more than happy to post my mea culpa.
    And you claim its the moving the goalposts season! LOL

    You jump out with a big - literally bold - statement claiming there are 'NO' rumours about facial recognition on the P20 series and when Google's first result proves you wrong, you fire back with:

    "All based on the original demonstration, and acknowledged "in the future". "

    I apologise for stating the obvious, but can you give me a single reason why these rumours shouldn't be based on that?

    You just moved the goalposts. And btw, I didn't move any.

    Don't you think it's perfectly normal to speculate on it appearing on the following flagship release? In fact, what would be ultra weird is if people didn't do that.

    You were wrong with what you said and you left me with no option but to point it out. If you hadn't taken such an absolute line I would have let it go, just as I did the other day when you said I was wrong to say that a three camera model might be released. You were wrong on that too if the leaked images are to be believed (and they were online before you posted).

    As for having a front mounted fingerprint scanner to argue against facial recognition. No issue with that. It's at least a feasible point but doesn't hold much weight. Why not have both? The best of both worlds.

    What is curious for me is the placement. It could have gone on the back and freed up a little more space on the front but all the leaks show a front mounted sensor.






  • Reply 39 of 46
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 30,862member
    k2kw said:
    Tesla uses cameras instead of LIDAR for its auto pilot software (I guess the Lidar missed the pedestrian hit by UBER).    
    I wonder if these multiple modules could be used (with cameras) in self driving cars for a safer than Camera or Lidar based system.
    Could give Apple a leg up. 
    According to the local police, the pedestrian suddenly stepped from a median right into traffic. Uber may be found blameless in this case.
  • Reply 40 of 46
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,488member
    avon b7 said:
    Soli said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    mjtomlin said:
    avon b7 said:
    Last year Huawei was doing live demos of 3D sensing systems with ten times the resolution of FaceID. Huawei has been working with Finisar for years and have even collaborated on product development in the past.

    The iPhone X is the only Apple phone with FaceID at present and demand for it will not sky rocket in the coming months. The units necessary for some Android destined 3D sensing equipment probably already exist.

    There is the possibility of industry wide supply constraints but I imagine that some Android manufacturers should be able to get models out without too many problems.

    The Huawei P20 series will be announced next week and will be a reference point. If it ships without the Point Cloud Depth setup, it will lend strength to this rumour. If it ships with it, some manufacturers may be covered while others are locked out for a time.

    Just a few days to wait.

    Making a few demo or reference units is not the same as being able to mass produce them. That is where bottlenecks usually show up. There are many, many technologies "still in the lab", because it is extremely hard to manufacture them at scale.

    The one thing most companies don't have, that Apple has, is the money to throw at those issues, because they can demand a premium price for their products. Plus the cost to manufacture is minimal when you're selling a product at the scale Apple does.
    Having had long experience with VCSEL use and the manufacturers involved, I doubt Huawei in particular will have the same issues as other handset manufacturers with regards to hardware supply. There are lots of companies involved in 3D depth sensing.

    The demos last year showed a complete hardware solution. The software will be another matter, though.

    No doubt there will be issues with supply but I find it hard to imagine Huawei suffering although the truth is anything could happen and we won't know for sure until the 27th.

    Current handset use of 3D depth sensing seems to have a limited range. I suppose work is being carried out to give phones an increased range for things like AR.


    So, on the 27th will we get a mea culpa from you if their is no FaceID equivalent in the Pro 20?
    Mea culpa for what exactly?

    Huawei has detailed the technology. It has demoed the technology. It has stated that it goes much further than FaceID and Animojis.

    The only remaining questions are on what phone it will appear and if it works well.

    As I don't know the answers to those questions, all I can do is speculate, just like everyone else.

    Were you expecting me to state the P20 series would have this technology even though I don't actually know?

    One week from the announcement?

    Why would I do that?
    That’s like if I said I’m going to be the world’s first trillionaire and then followed up by saying the only remaining question is how I’m going to do it.

    Apple announced and demoed it on a device that was up for preorder days later and the up for sale just weeks later, which then had excessive independent testing.
    If you were referring to what the company has stated, It's not about how to do it. According to the company its already done. Not only done but details have been put on the table and it has been demoed.

    The only remaining question is when (on which phone) it will appear.
    What part about scaling a tech from a demo to millions and millions of units, and the production challenges therein, are you not getting? Done isn't done until it's done.
    Well, let's see.

    We have one of the largest vertically integrated handset manufacturers in the world with a proven track record of scaling demos to millions and millions telling us all about their solution and doing demos.

    That same company also has a long history and deep understanding of VCSEL use.

    I think I 'get it' very well.

    This article speaks of Android handset makers possibly having difficulties with VCSEL supplies through 2018. It might happen. It might even affect Huawei but from what I have posted, do you actually have anything to argue against what I have said?

    If KFC image is your only contribution you are really on thin ice.
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