Apple has two-year head start on Android in 3D sensing arms race, report says

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  • Reply 41 of 46
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,941member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Soli said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    mjtomlin said:
    avon b7 said:
    Last year Huawei was doing live demos of 3D sensing systems with ten times the resolution of FaceID. Huawei has been working with Finisar for years and have even collaborated on product development in the past.

    The iPhone X is the only Apple phone with FaceID at present and demand for it will not sky rocket in the coming months. The units necessary for some Android destined 3D sensing equipment probably already exist.

    There is the possibility of industry wide supply constraints but I imagine that some Android manufacturers should be able to get models out without too many problems.

    The Huawei P20 series will be announced next week and will be a reference point. If it ships without the Point Cloud Depth setup, it will lend strength to this rumour. If it ships with it, some manufacturers may be covered while others are locked out for a time.

    Just a few days to wait.

    Making a few demo or reference units is not the same as being able to mass produce them. That is where bottlenecks usually show up. There are many, many technologies "still in the lab", because it is extremely hard to manufacture them at scale.

    The one thing most companies don't have, that Apple has, is the money to throw at those issues, because they can demand a premium price for their products. Plus the cost to manufacture is minimal when you're selling a product at the scale Apple does.
    Having had long experience with VCSEL use and the manufacturers involved, I doubt Huawei in particular will have the same issues as other handset manufacturers with regards to hardware supply. There are lots of companies involved in 3D depth sensing.

    The demos last year showed a complete hardware solution. The software will be another matter, though.

    No doubt there will be issues with supply but I find it hard to imagine Huawei suffering although the truth is anything could happen and we won't know for sure until the 27th.

    Current handset use of 3D depth sensing seems to have a limited range. I suppose work is being carried out to give phones an increased range for things like AR.


    So, on the 27th will we get a mea culpa from you if their is no FaceID equivalent in the Pro 20?
    Mea culpa for what exactly?

    Huawei has detailed the technology. It has demoed the technology. It has stated that it goes much further than FaceID and Animojis.

    The only remaining questions are on what phone it will appear and if it works well.

    As I don't know the answers to those questions, all I can do is speculate, just like everyone else.

    Were you expecting me to state the P20 series would have this technology even though I don't actually know?

    One week from the announcement?

    Why would I do that?
    That’s like if I said I’m going to be the world’s first trillionaire and then followed up by saying the only remaining question is how I’m going to do it.

    Apple announced and demoed it on a device that was up for preorder days later and the up for sale just weeks later, which then had excessive independent testing.
    You lost me a bit there Soli.

    No one (on the outside) knows what will happen. I haven't actually affirmed (trillionaires) anything beyond what has been stated (and demoed) by the company itself.

    If you were referring to what the company has stated, It's not about how to do it. According to the company its already done. Not only done but details have been put on the table and it has been demoed.

    The only remaining question is when (on which phone) it will appear.

    Huawei releases four flagships a year. The next flagship announcement is next week. We will have to wait and see what actually happens then.

    The technology was actually presented at an Honor event. There is a remote possibility that it could ship on the next Honor phone but all the rumours point to the Huawei P20 series.

    And talking about possibilities, we could also run with the idea presented here. Not enough manufacturing capacity. That, as I mentioned at the start, is something I don't see affecting Huawei but it's impossible to know for sure, at least today. Next week we will know more.



    There are NO rumors at all of Face Identification for the P20 Pro at this time, and most images continue to show a chin on all of the P20's, indicating touch identification.

    There are recent leaks of the triple camera system with a 40 MP color imager for the P20 Pro, but that is a sales driver for only a very small fraction of available buyers. 

    I don't even need to speculate about what Apple has in store for FaceID in September. It's obvious that Apple / Finisar have been able to scale production such that there will be three models with FaceID, and Apple is likely driving down the BOM for FaceID hardware at the same time. The only question will be what improvements in size reduction and capability that Apple will deliver with the 2nd generation FaceID hardware.
    No rumours?

    "Today, we’ve got an important leak for the Huawei P20 lineup. If you’re a regular, you will know that the lineup is consistently rumored with Facial recognition."

    https://wccftech.com/huawei-p20-lite-notch-fcc/

    That came from the first link on a Google search!
    All based on the original demonstration, and acknowledged "in the future". 

    I'm not seeing face identification happening on any of these models, in which case, all of the differentiation with the rest of the Android OS herd is just the extra camera.
    BFD.

    Still, if I'm wrong, I will be more than happy to post my mea culpa.
    And you claim its the moving the goalposts season! LOL

    You jump out with a big - literally bold - statement claiming there are 'NO' rumours about facial recognition on the P20 series and when Google's first result proves you wrong, you fire back with:

    "All based on the original demonstration, and acknowledged "in the future". "

    I apologise for stating the obvious, but can you give me a single reason why these rumours shouldn't be based on that?

    You just moved the goalposts. And btw, I didn't move any.

    Don't you think it's perfectly normal to speculate on it appearing on the following flagship release? In fact, what would be ultra weird is if people didn't do that.

    You were wrong with what you said and you left me with no option but to point it out. If you hadn't taken such an absolute line I would have let it go, just as I did the other day when you said I was wrong to say that a three camera model might be released. You were wrong on that too if the leaked images are to be believed (and they were online before you posted).

    As for having a front mounted fingerprint scanner to argue against facial recognition. No issue with that. It's at least a feasible point but doesn't hold much weight. Why not have both? The best of both worlds.

    What is curious for me is the placement. It could have gone on the back and freed up a little more space on the front but all the leaks show a front mounted sensor.







    I was certainly wrong on the 3 cameras release, basing it on some images posted a few weeks ago, so point taken, but for the record, 3 cameras is not a halo feature that will drive a lot of sales like FaceID does. 

    Anyway, I'm sticking with my "bet" on no face identification for any of the P20 models; there haven't been any recent rumors with any new details that would be expected a week before announcement.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 42 of 46
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,189member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Soli said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    mjtomlin said:
    avon b7 said:
    Last year Huawei was doing live demos of 3D sensing systems with ten times the resolution of FaceID. Huawei has been working with Finisar for years and have even collaborated on product development in the past.

    The iPhone X is the only Apple phone with FaceID at present and demand for it will not sky rocket in the coming months. The units necessary for some Android destined 3D sensing equipment probably already exist.

    There is the possibility of industry wide supply constraints but I imagine that some Android manufacturers should be able to get models out without too many problems.

    The Huawei P20 series will be announced next week and will be a reference point. If it ships without the Point Cloud Depth setup, it will lend strength to this rumour. If it ships with it, some manufacturers may be covered while others are locked out for a time.

    Just a few days to wait.

    Making a few demo or reference units is not the same as being able to mass produce them. That is where bottlenecks usually show up. There are many, many technologies "still in the lab", because it is extremely hard to manufacture them at scale.

    The one thing most companies don't have, that Apple has, is the money to throw at those issues, because they can demand a premium price for their products. Plus the cost to manufacture is minimal when you're selling a product at the scale Apple does.
    Having had long experience with VCSEL use and the manufacturers involved, I doubt Huawei in particular will have the same issues as other handset manufacturers with regards to hardware supply. There are lots of companies involved in 3D depth sensing.

    The demos last year showed a complete hardware solution. The software will be another matter, though.

    No doubt there will be issues with supply but I find it hard to imagine Huawei suffering although the truth is anything could happen and we won't know for sure until the 27th.

    Current handset use of 3D depth sensing seems to have a limited range. I suppose work is being carried out to give phones an increased range for things like AR.


    So, on the 27th will we get a mea culpa from you if their is no FaceID equivalent in the Pro 20?
    Mea culpa for what exactly?

    Huawei has detailed the technology. It has demoed the technology. It has stated that it goes much further than FaceID and Animojis.

    The only remaining questions are on what phone it will appear and if it works well.

    As I don't know the answers to those questions, all I can do is speculate, just like everyone else.

    Were you expecting me to state the P20 series would have this technology even though I don't actually know?

    One week from the announcement?

    Why would I do that?
    That’s like if I said I’m going to be the world’s first trillionaire and then followed up by saying the only remaining question is how I’m going to do it.

    Apple announced and demoed it on a device that was up for preorder days later and the up for sale just weeks later, which then had excessive independent testing.
    You lost me a bit there Soli.

    No one (on the outside) knows what will happen. I haven't actually affirmed (trillionaires) anything beyond what has been stated (and demoed) by the company itself.

    If you were referring to what the company has stated, It's not about how to do it. According to the company its already done. Not only done but details have been put on the table and it has been demoed.

    The only remaining question is when (on which phone) it will appear.

    Huawei releases four flagships a year. The next flagship announcement is next week. We will have to wait and see what actually happens then.

    The technology was actually presented at an Honor event. There is a remote possibility that it could ship on the next Honor phone but all the rumours point to the Huawei P20 series.

    And talking about possibilities, we could also run with the idea presented here. Not enough manufacturing capacity. That, as I mentioned at the start, is something I don't see affecting Huawei but it's impossible to know for sure, at least today. Next week we will know more.



    There are NO rumors at all of Face Identification for the P20 Pro at this time, and most images continue to show a chin on all of the P20's, indicating touch identification.

    There are recent leaks of the triple camera system with a 40 MP color imager for the P20 Pro, but that is a sales driver for only a very small fraction of available buyers. 

    I don't even need to speculate about what Apple has in store for FaceID in September. It's obvious that Apple / Finisar have been able to scale production such that there will be three models with FaceID, and Apple is likely driving down the BOM for FaceID hardware at the same time. The only question will be what improvements in size reduction and capability that Apple will deliver with the 2nd generation FaceID hardware.
    No rumours?

    "Today, we’ve got an important leak for the Huawei P20 lineup. If you’re a regular, you will know that the lineup is consistently rumored with Facial recognition."

    https://wccftech.com/huawei-p20-lite-notch-fcc/

    That came from the first link on a Google search!
    All based on the original demonstration, and acknowledged "in the future". 

    I'm not seeing face identification happening on any of these models, in which case, all of the differentiation with the rest of the Android OS herd is just the extra camera.
    BFD.

    Still, if I'm wrong, I will be more than happy to post my mea culpa.
    And you claim its the moving the goalposts season! LOL

    You jump out with a big - literally bold - statement claiming there are 'NO' rumours about facial recognition on the P20 series and when Google's first result proves you wrong, you fire back with:

    "All based on the original demonstration, and acknowledged "in the future". "

    I apologise for stating the obvious, but can you give me a single reason why these rumours shouldn't be based on that?

    You just moved the goalposts. And btw, I didn't move any.

    Don't you think it's perfectly normal to speculate on it appearing on the following flagship release? In fact, what would be ultra weird is if people didn't do that.

    You were wrong with what you said and you left me with no option but to point it out. If you hadn't taken such an absolute line I would have let it go, just as I did the other day when you said I was wrong to say that a three camera model might be released. You were wrong on that too if the leaked images are to be believed (and they were online before you posted).

    As for having a front mounted fingerprint scanner to argue against facial recognition. No issue with that. It's at least a feasible point but doesn't hold much weight. Why not have both? The best of both worlds.

    What is curious for me is the placement. It could have gone on the back and freed up a little more space on the front but all the leaks show a front mounted sensor.







    I was certainly wrong on the 3 cameras release, basing it on some images posted a few weeks ago, so point taken, but for the record, 3 cameras is not a halo feature that will drive a lot of sales like FaceID does. 

    Anyway, I'm sticking with my "bet" on no face identification for any of the P20 models; there haven't been any recent rumors with any new details that would be expected a week before announcement.
    That's fine. You may even win your bet. As you can see, I'm hedging mine a little. I prefer not to go out on a limb so close to release.

    But supposing it does appear, my big question would be exactly the same one I posed for iPhone X. How will it perform in the wild? 

    Having a fingerprint sensor obviously reduces any design risks although I'm not a fan of front mounted sensors and provides a degree of redundancy for the user.

    I wasn't sold on the three camera part, but the more I read about it, the more interested I've become.

    One note that somewhat supports your stance is that in 2015 Huawei made an important breakthrough in battery technology, presented it at the world's most important battery symposium but has yet to actually use it on a shipping product. 
  • Reply 43 of 46
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,189member
    Latest rumours suggest no 3D depth sensing or BT5.0 on the P20 series phones. This from Roland Quandt, someone who I feel is quite credible when it comes to these things. Next Tuesday we'll know for sure, either way.
  • Reply 44 of 46
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,941member
    avon b7 said:
    Latest rumours suggest no 3D depth sensing or BT5.0 on the P20 series phones. This from Roland Quandt, someone who I feel is quite credible when it comes to these things. Next Tuesday we'll know for sure, either way.
    I've heard that as well, but it is expected that the three lens system will support AR/VR, and depth effects might be better than dual lens computational cameras. Surprised that no upgrade to BT 5.x will be offered.

    I don't think the the P20's will be awful; they will certainly challenge Samsung Galaxy, and the cameras might set the bar for IQ. Still, I'm not seeing anything that would drive any current Apple users to Android OS except pricing, and the rumors here at AI are that Apple is getting a handle on OLED costs, and should be able to sell a new X model at a price point at least $100 less than today.

    The rumored 6.5 inch X will be Apple's flagship, if it happens, and might exceed pricing of the current X. I might be interested if it supports the Pencil, but I don't expect that this year, and I'm quite satisfied with the 7 Plus that I currently use.

    I would think that you would be very happy with a P20 Pro.
  • Reply 45 of 46
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,189member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Latest rumours suggest no 3D depth sensing or BT5.0 on the P20 series phones. This from Roland Quandt, someone who I feel is quite credible when it comes to these things. Next Tuesday we'll know for sure, either way.
    I've heard that as well, but it is expected that the three lens system will support AR/VR, and depth effects might be better than dual lens computational cameras. Surprised that no upgrade to BT 5.x will be offered.

    I don't think the the P20's will be awful; they will certainly challenge Samsung Galaxy, and the cameras might set the bar for IQ. Still, I'm not seeing anything that would drive any current Apple users to Android OS except pricing, and the rumors here at AI are that Apple is getting a handle on OLED costs, and should be able to sell a new X model at a price point at least $100 less than today.

    The rumored 6.5 inch X will be Apple's flagship, if it happens, and might exceed pricing of the current X. I might be interested if it supports the Pencil, but I don't expect that this year, and I'm quite satisfied with the 7 Plus that I currently use.
    Y66

    I would think that you would be very happy with a Pro.
    Yes, if I could afford it, :-)

    I have a bit stashed away for a (hopefully) new iPad Mini. If it gets killed, I'll get Mini 4 on discount.

    Whatever is leftover is earmarked for a phone but nothing expensive. Perhaps 300-400€ for me and a bit more for an iPhone for the wife (currently on a 6 with new battery) if it runs into problems. Whichever needs an upgrade first.

    Competition is driving technology down the ranges very quickly and older phones are getting nice discounts. A friend bought a P10 yesterday for 341€. I was tempted to get one but my current phone is still doing its job so I resisted the urge.
  • Reply 46 of 46
    arthurbaarthurba Posts: 108member
    flaneur said:
    arthurba said:
    As as a collaborator with Apple, I’m certain RED did talk to Apple about this first - 

    Can you give a link to any instances of RED/Apple collaboration? 

    The 'red rocket' was basically designed to go in the Mac Pro, redcine on Mac, Red Apple workflow for FCP etc.  Yes most of their stuff works on windows too, but primarily RED customers use iPhones and Mac's (just check out reduser forums).  And then there is this, of course:
    http://www.red.com/news/red-announces-that-its-red-raven-camera-kit-is-available-exclusively-through-apple
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