Apple hit with class action suit over MacBook, MacBook Pro butterfly switch keyboard failu...

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  • Reply 41 of 75
    kiltedgreenkiltedgreen Posts: 613member
    henrybay said:
    The class action should also include the lack of adequate keyboard travel on the new MacBooks. Shallow keys are terrible for long writing sessions. They are not much better than writing on an iPad. 
    My own suspicion is that what people think is a lack of "travel" or "feel" is actually a lack of "wobble". The butterfly mechanism was specifically introduced to cut back on the wobble of the key when struck vs. the hinge design. It also seems unlikely when looking at prior keyboard designs that the keys are really traveling much further physically. There may be a difference, but you're probably talking about fractions of a millimeter.
    My own suspicion is that you've never tried typing on one of the new MacBooks.

    I am typing this on a 2015 MacBook Pro but I've visited my nearest Apple shop before I bought this (used) model and tried the new ones, specifically those with the Touch Bar. When typing on the new MacBooks it takes only a second to realise that its key travel is noticeably less than that of the keys on the keyboard on which I'm now typing. Absolutely nothing to do with "wobble".
    edited May 2018 elijahgapple2cbaconstangapplesnorangesmazda 3sAlex1Nkiowavt
  • Reply 42 of 75
    kiltedgreenkiltedgreen Posts: 613member
    I would have thought that the fact that this issue has got to the point where its being discussed on here, on Apple's forums and a lawsuit raised against Apple should signal that something is going on here.

    My MacBook has one of the earlier keyboards and has been absolutely fine. How many forum discussions, lawsuits and posts have been made referring to Apple's previous MacBook keyboard designs? Close to zero if memory serves. That, as Sherlock Holmes might have said, "is suggestive" ...
    baconstangAlex1N
  • Reply 43 of 75
    henrybay said: The keys on my old 11inch MacBook Air travel nearly twice the distance of the MacBook Pro according to the calibrated calipers I use. 
    And what does "nearly twice" actually equal in terms of distance? You left that part out. 
    kiltedgreen said:
    My own suspicion is that you've never tried typing on one of the new MacBooks. I am typing this on a 2015 MacBook Pro but I've visited my nearest Apple shop before I bought this (used) model and tried the new ones, specifically those with the Touch Bar. When typing on the new MacBooks it takes only a second to realise that its key travel is noticeably less than that of the keys on the keyboard on which I'm now typing. Absolutely nothing to do with "wobble".
    If you look at a laptop keyboard, the height of the key above the tray is going to give you a pretty good idea of what the travel is due to the fact that the top of the keys typically move to flush or just slightly below flush with the tray when depressed. Does the height of the 2015 keys really look that much higher vs. 2016/17? Maybe a little? But you're talking about tiny, tiny measurements here.
    edited May 2018 Alex1N
  • Reply 44 of 75
    rogifan_newrogifan_new Posts: 4,297member
    elijahg said:
    I’d love to know what the underlying issue is with this keyboard. The ATP guys (and others) claim it’s Apple’s obsession with thinness but there are other laptops on the market just as thin (or thinner) than the MBP. I’m not aware of Windows OEM laptops having major keyboard issues.
    They don't use Apple's butterfly mechanism though, so they don't have the keyboard reliability issue. As AI reported with a Dell they reviewed - the key travel is actually longer on the thinner Dell which uses a standard scissor mechanism than on the MBP. Dell obviously managed to make something thinner elsewhere to allow a full travel keyboard, whereas Apple's engineers couldn't, or someone decided shorter travel was better than (further) reduced battery life; all under Ive's obsessive constraint of "it must be another Xmm thinner no matter what". So shaving a few millimetres from the travel allowed Apple to shave off another millimetre or two from the machine's depth, which required a new switch mechanism, ultimately to the detriment of usability. Did anyone ever say "the keys travel too far" before? The 2015 MBP keyboard was oft rated as one of the best in the industry and rarely failed.

    The problem is compounded by Apple's anti-repair practises. People wouldn't mind as much is they didn't have to replace half the computer for a dead key. I have no idea why people defend Apple's anti-repair practises so much, it's really not eco nor user-friendly at all. The argument they make is glueing everything together makes it more reliable, though there isn't really much evidence to show this - but it's obvious to anyone that being able to replace a keyboard for £35 is a lot less wasteful than replacing the entire top case and battery for £600. That's hugely wasteful, and despite being from an engineering background, I can't see how making them one component makes it more reliable. Apple's all for eco-friendly when it suits them, and very not eco-friendly when it might have some small detriment to their repair profits. I think the right to repair legalisation is a brilliant idea, and if I was a US citizen, I'd support it 100%.

    Also... people seem to like the apparently wobbly keys. They feel more comfortable, they're quieter and seemingly more reliable. 
    That’s lot of conjecture. Like I said there are plenty of Windows OEM laptops as thin (or thinner) as the MBP so I’m not buying the it’s Apple’s obsession with thinness argument. As far as key travel goes that’s subjective.
    Alex1N
  • Reply 45 of 75
    apple2capple2c Posts: 38member
    Note to author:  the word is “fare” not “fair”!

    Current 2017 model year versions fair a bit better, though the model has not been available for a full year.”

    As to the keyboard, bring back something like the iBook G4 approach —not only a good keyboard, but with two easy tabs, slide back, pop off the keyboard.  While some people I know had a couple of their key cap letters wear off, Apple would promptly send replacements out, which the user could replace in less than a minute.

    I read now where other companies have liquid resistant and liquid barrier keyboards, too, so that if you spill something on the laptop, it doesn’t short circuit the computer!

    Much rather have both of those features (easy user replacement and liquid barrier) than butterfly and ultra thin!
    edited May 2018 baconstangAlex1Nkiowavt
  • Reply 46 of 75
    stanhopestanhope Posts: 160member
    I had problems since day one......as i travel a fair amount i did not take it in but had a rep document it in my file. It has NOT gotten better....i will have it tended to before I sell which will be soon. The first macbook pro i have hated.
    Alex1Nkiowavt
  • Reply 47 of 75
    My irritation is that I bought AppleCare BECAUSE of the keyboard.  I had the keyboard replaced on my 2016 w/ TB once under the 1-year warranty and knew right then that I'd want AppleCare.  That appears to have been missed in the lawsuit.  I'm not sure how you identify that without is being abused, but ugh...
    Alex1N
  • Reply 48 of 75
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,952member
    While I normally am not a fan of such things, I really hope Apple gets smacked down on this one. They need a wake-up call before it's too late. It needs to be something big enough (PR) and expensive enough that they actually notice. This could be a good one to do just that. And, whoever gave the go-ahead from the design team, needs a good ego-knock-back as well.
    Alex1Nkiowavtbaconstang
  • Reply 49 of 75
    VachVach Posts: 1unconfirmed, member
    How can i join the lawsuit? I want to hurt these greedy apple bastards.
    Intentionally making flaws into their software and hardware to milk the customers... never again i'm gonna put a single dollar into apples products, even if those become truly good, i just hate this company at this point...
  • Reply 50 of 75
    I have the 2016 MBP, and I am noticing the "B" key issues as well. I stupidly did not get AppleCare, and now I am out of warranty. In all honesty, I do like the travel of this new keyboard, I just seem to be quicker when I type. That said, I know that this is a design defect with the product because I am not a touch typist. I have to sit here and watch what my fingers do with the keyboard, and I have gotten pretty fast and efficient with it. That said, anytime I touch the "B" or the "N", I almost always stop just to make sure that the key was registered. I haven't noticed it with the Space Bar, but I could just be lucky in that regards.
    cgWerks
  • Reply 51 of 75
    wood1208 said:
    One can not beat up or file law suit against Apple because few of them have keyboard issues. Some use certain keys lot more than others or hit harder or eat over keyboard with crumbs inside keyboard gaps,etc. Keyboard is mechanical component so every keyboard(keys) will have some kind of problem at some point in time so we need to compare current MBP's keyboard issues with the previous gen MBP and rest of industry's(windows) laptops keyboard. If at par or above than case closed. Someone can argue that MBP price compare to similarly equipped(under hood) laptops is higher so reliability expectation is higher but discussion of that topic is for some other time.

    Sorry you are completely wrong. 

    Having had a new machine fail three times in less than a month. These are faulty. 

    We've had had a higher than 40% failure rate across these machines internally. 

    Now someone will come along and say that they’re all being used wrong no doubt ! 
    edited May 2018 kiowavtcgWerks
  • Reply 52 of 75
    kiowavtkiowavt Posts: 95member
    Add me to the list of the disappointed. 2017 MacBook Pro 15” and the most expensive Mac I ever purchased. Also thus the most disappointing. Periodically keys cease to work if dust gets under them. The spacebar was a major issue. If I spend lots of time cleaning, something I never had to do before, life goes on.. Meanwhile the keyboard is loud (no sneaky typing while on the phone) and getting used to it meant it took a long time to stop making hugely many typos. One of the only Apple purchases I regret.
  • Reply 53 of 75
    techridertechrider Posts: 102member
    I began to type at around 13. It was on Mom’s IBM Selectric, which shook the house with each strike of its mighty lead-like font ball. The faster I typed, the more satisfying its sound (equally satisfying was breaking out the Liquid Paper on spelling mistakes). Mom also introduced me to a memoir-sized printing calculator, another visceral experience with each press of its + - x / and giant =. By the time she dropped an 8088 PC clone on my desk at 16, I could fly through typing up reports or writing batch files on its mechanical 104-key keyboard. Love. That. Woman. (Happy Mother’s Day!).

    Today I type on a MacBook 12 and the wireless Mac’s Magic keyboard (with numeric keypad). Both keyboards look beautiful, but are shallow and, to me, lack a satisfying feel. The MacBook has had 3 keys die so far (all repaired under warranty). I’m not going to change away from Apple, but I do hope they rethink their keyboard design and feel. 
  • Reply 54 of 75
    bkkcanuckbkkcanuck Posts: 864member
    techrider said:
    I began to type at around 13. It was on Mom’s IBM Selectric, which shook the house with each strike of its mighty lead-like font ball. The faster I typed, the more satisfying its sound (equally satisfying was breaking out the Liquid Paper on spelling mistakes). Mom also introduced me to a memoir-sized printing calculator, another visceral experience with each press of its + - x / and giant =. By the time she dropped an 8088 PC clone on my desk at 16, I could fly through typing up reports or writing batch files on its mechanical 104-key keyboard. Love. That. Woman. (Happy Mother’s Day!).

    Today I type on a MacBook 12 and the wireless Mac’s Magic keyboard (with numeric keypad). Both keyboards look beautiful, but are shallow and, to me, lack a satisfying feel. The MacBook has had 3 keys die so far (all repaired under warranty). I’m not going to change away from Apple, but I do hope they rethink their keyboard design and feel. 
    I remember IBM Selectric typerwriters -- but before our first IBM PC (IBM DOS 1.1 - 2 floppies, no support for directories, no hard drives etc.) -- we had a Remington Typewriter - with the hammers (manual).  Type too fast and you jam the heads together (QWERTY keyboard design was made inefficient to slow down people), don't push down solidly and you either don't get a letter or a partial imprint etc.  I personally am more satisfied with a quiet keyboard, one that when I hit a key I know it registers - one I have to do very little to hit the key which allows me to type faster than those that you have to exert more energy in pressing the key (even the Selectric while solid, would be less efficient). I have been through lots of keyboards, and I don't want to go back.  The best one for me is the Magic keyboard (though I would like a similar keyboard but in an ergonomic layout - and for the Mac).  I don't even like ones with keypads since I rarely use those and it pushes out important things like mice or trackpad from a better ergonomic position.
    edited May 2018
  • Reply 55 of 75
    majorslmajorsl Posts: 119unconfirmed, member
    I was going to come here to note that my buddy had a key that went wonky and he's sending it in under AppleCare.  Just as I was typing this, my own spacebar seemed to go "dead" on the right side and recover (for now).

    I don't use my MacBook as a food tray, I'm careful about what gets near it, even more-so in the past few weeks after I started reading about this. I've had a Mac laptop since the DuoDock and almost one of each generation since. I've had one keyboard fail in all those years.

    I happen to like the feel of this keyboard, but something "isn't right" with them.
  • Reply 56 of 75
    apmillerapmiller Posts: 35member
    I'm in no hurry to replace my Late 2013 15" Retina Macbook Pro primarily for this issue. I don't care for how noisy the new MacBook keyboards are in comparison. I think I could get used to the feel and low travel (my wife has one), but want to avoid the noise as long as I can, and the sensitivity they have to tiny debris underneath. I'm currently typing on my all time favorite keyboard - Apple's wired full size keyboard. Very quite, and great feel. I recently bought my wife the new wireless full size keyboard. It has slightly less key travel, and is not as quiet, but very nice too. Apple should stick to that amount of travel and noise.
  • Reply 57 of 75
    macxpressmacxpress Posts: 5,871member
    Vach said:
    How can i join the lawsuit? I want to hurt these greedy apple bastards.
    Intentionally making flaws into their software and hardware to milk the customers... never again i'm gonna put a single dollar into apples products, even if those become truly good, i just hate this company at this point...
    Oh get out of here...you signed up just to say this BS?
  • Reply 58 of 75
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,952member
    macxpress said:
    Vach said:
    How can i join the lawsuit? I want to hurt these greedy apple bastards.
    Intentionally making flaws into their software and hardware to milk the customers... never again i'm gonna put a single dollar into apples products, even if those become truly good, i just hate this company at this point...
    Oh get out of here...you signed up just to say this BS?
    If I had one of these, I would. When I had my VW TDI, I joined a few VW forums after the scandal broke to get news on the recall/claim and to complain. What's wrong with that?
  • Reply 59 of 75
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,784member
    Ridiculous.  What determines whether something is law suit worthy?  If a company makes a product that isn't durable and treats its customers poorly, the market will "reward" that company with poor future sales.  That's how the system to works.  Unless someone gets hurt or the company reneges on warranty obligations, why should I court get involved?
    My thoughts exactly.  You'd think Google would be a better target ... just saw this on Ars: "Criminals infected more than 100,000 computers with browser extensions that stole login credentials, surreptitiously mined cryptocurrencies, and engaged in click fraud. The malicious extensions were hosted in Google’s official Chrome Web Store."  Now some of that could count as 'hurt' you'd think.
  • Reply 60 of 75
    macxpressmacxpress Posts: 5,871member
    cgWerks said:
    macxpress said:
    Vach said:
    How can i join the lawsuit? I want to hurt these greedy apple bastards.
    Intentionally making flaws into their software and hardware to milk the customers... never again i'm gonna put a single dollar into apples products, even if those become truly good, i just hate this company at this point...
    Oh get out of here...you signed up just to say this BS?
    If I had one of these, I would. When I had my VW TDI, I joined a few VW forums after the scandal broke to get news on the recall/claim and to complain. What's wrong with that?
    Because the entire post is bullshit. Yes, Apple is PURPOSELY making defective products and making people PURPOSELY pay $700 to fix it. This is your typical one and done post we get. 
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