Apple hit with class action suit over MacBook, MacBook Pro butterfly switch keyboard failu...

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  • Reply 61 of 75
    lmaclmac Posts: 207member
    To the fanboys who think that because they haven't experienced this problem, the rest of us are "holding it wrong," please just shut up. Apple's quest for thin has resulted in a poor design, and the users are stuck with it. Apple has had an opportunity to respond to this, and they've chosen to ignore it. I'm sure Dilger will write an editorial that says this is great news, because it will spawn an entire industry of keyboard cleaners and amazing external keyboards, but the truth is that if I pay over $1000 for a laptop, and sometimes a lot more than that, I expect it will continue to work reliably for years. Since they don't, and Apple isn't fixing it, this is what happens.
    edited May 2018 cgWerksaknabijdwavon b7
  • Reply 62 of 75
    lmaclmac Posts: 207member
    nunzy said:
    A friend of mine had this problem. But he's a pig. He doesn't wash his hands before he types. I have no sympathy for him.
    He's a pig because he doesn't wash his hands before he types? A person shouldn't have to live in a "clean room" to use a computer. This is a design flaw, not a hygiene issue.
  • Reply 63 of 75
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,952member
    macxpress said:
    Because the entire post is bullshit. Yes, Apple is PURPOSELY making defective products and making people PURPOSELY pay $700 to fix it. This is your typical one and done post we get. 
    I'm sure they didn't purposely design it to fail as a money maker, but that isn't the point. If you make a defective product - especially if it is reasonable that you should have caught it and/or now know about it - you have a responsibility to make things right.
  • Reply 64 of 75
    djsherlydjsherly Posts: 1,031member
    lmac said:
    nunzy said:
    A friend of mine had this problem. But he's a pig. He doesn't wash his hands before he types. I have no sympathy for him.
    He's a pig because he doesn't wash his hands before he types? A person shouldn't have to live in a "clean room" to use a computer. This is a design flaw, not a hygiene issue.
    lmac said:
    nunzy said:
    A friend of mine had this problem. But he's a pig. He doesn't wash his hands before he types. I have no sympathy for him.
    He's a pig because he doesn't wash his hands before he types? A person shouldn't have to live in a "clean room" to use a computer. This is a design flaw, not a hygiene issue.
    Just throwing out the idea that maybe, maybe, this is a bit tongue-in-cheek
  • Reply 65 of 75
    I'm so glad I have not had this issue with my 2016 MBP Touchbar! I HAVE had a problem with the letters on the WASD keys wearing off for obvious ( gaming ) reasons! ;) Once I noticed the " A" was showing signs of visual wear immediately bought a MacAlly USB-C external keyboard to prevent further keys from getting scratched off!
  • Reply 66 of 75
    bobcat22bobcat22 Posts: 5member
    FWIW:  $480 to fix my 'T' key. 

    I now use one of those keyboard condoms to stop dust getting to the keys. (2016 MBP 15" Maxed out)
  • Reply 67 of 75
    chasmchasm Posts: 3,415member
    I'm not saying this isn't a problem for the people who have affected keyboars, nor am I saying that the fault lies mostly with the users (although statistics and history are on my side on that one ...), but I don't think this lawsuit is going to go very far -- the reason being that there is zero evidence that the design wasn't tested before it was released, and even less than zero evidence that the company has ignored the issue when it happens to users.

    I've been playing with the current MBP keyboard (and an MB keyboard) that belong to friends for a month or so now, and I find it odd that nobody is reporting this same issue with the MB keyboard, since the 2016 MBP has very much the same design (slight difference). I don't have access to a 2016 MBP so I can't say, but I've typed out a dozen or so very long blog posts on both the MacBooks and the 2017 MBP keyboard, and quite frankly I like them better than the Apple BT keyboard and non-Retina older MBP keyboard that I use at home.
  • Reply 68 of 75
    macmarcusmacmarcus Posts: 84member
    In related news, Apple recently filed a patent for a male body fluid proof keyboard. That should solve the problem. In the meantime, Genius Bar techs will use a UV light to help diagnose the stuck key problems.
  • Reply 69 of 75
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 15,404moderator
    I hate to pull the "Steve card".  But it seems to me that, since his death, the whole Mac line up has been pushing too hard to maintain its technical leadership position and, too often, coming up short in the real life test that Steve tended to excel in.   A scene from the (first) Steve Jobs movie comes to mind where, after repeatedly pressing a key that doesn't work, he proclaims:  "junk!" and then casually tosses the Walkman into the trash can.   I can picture him doing that with the MBP after its keyboard started failing him.  Steve didn't tolerate mediocrity.
    There are a couple of things to keep in mind. Apple uses the laptops themselves and the designs are decided years in advance of production. They filed patents for low travel keys with a metal dome back in 2010, when Steve and his intolerance of mediocrity were still around:

    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2012/0043191.html
    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20120043191.pdf

    The patent for the butterfly design was filed later in 2014 but has a lot of similar components:

    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/WO2015047612A2.html
    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/WO2015047612A2.pdf

    The difference in feel and height becomes obvious on looking at the internals:





    The lever on the old key goes the full width of the key, the butterfly one is only half the width. This contributes to the lower height of the key, albeit making it more stable. The silicone dome switch is replaced with stainless steel so clearly less cushioning and more noisy when typing. It would also be easier to get jammed with crumbs and lint because of the lower height, even a single crumb or nostril crust (aka bogey) could do it.

    They have a 2016 patent on a design to stop crumbs getting in:

    https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/09/apple-filed-a-patent-for-a-keyboard-that-isn-t-ruined-by-dust/

    I'm not sure why they settled on this design, especially with the lower amount of cushioning, which is less pleasant to type on and they could have dampened it. They could surely make the keys independent units too i.e have them be self contained and just pushed into the key holes. One key goes bad and it just gets pulled out and another unit pushed in. I don't understand the need for switches at all, the entire hinge moves and isn't impeded by crumbs or dust so why not just have some kind of sensor on that with a threshold like a metal wire or contact inside the hinge that can tell how much it moved.

    Another option is to have the entire top unit removable so that it can be swapped for a display. It could have other control surfaces like color correction and audio deck but people will always need to type so I doubt there would be anything more than physical or a touch display, which can show virtual controls. The display option could replace the touch bar so you'd either buy a physical keyboard or display and it could be bought after buying the laptop. The touch ID unit would likely be replaced with Face ID.

    Physical keys could also be in the pressed state when closing the lid to allow for more travel. That could be their default state and when the laptop is open, it uses some electromagnets to pull the keys up to allow for more travel without affecting the thickness of the laptop.

    Apple also has patents for a keyboard using micro-perforations in the metal and a touch surface:

    http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=20160098107.PGNR.
    http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2018/03/apple-invents-a-keyless-keyboards-for-macs-and-ipad-pro-with-morphing-interface-options-for-gaming-music-more.html

    There are lots of options to go with, there's no need to have a design that needs a major repair for a key failure.
    avon b7
  • Reply 70 of 75
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,952member
    Marvin said:
    Another option is to have the entire top unit removable so that it can be swapped for a display. It could have other control surfaces like color correction and audio deck but people will always need to type so I doubt there would be anything more than physical or a touch display, which can show virtual controls.
    If they really wanted to do something glitzy and cool, they could make the surface of each key a display so they could create any kind of keyboard or custom layout. An App (or game) could put special controls or pictures on each key. There are 3rd party key pads that do this kind of thing, and people use them for CAD apps and such that have tons of menu items and functions (i.e.: you just hit the key to go into edge-chamfer mode, instead of pressing Shift-Alt-K or whatever).

    That would be showy, useful, and people could still actually type on it. Plus, they could evenly light up and the letters wouldn't wear off!
  • Reply 71 of 75
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,897administrator
    cgWerks said:
    Marvin said:
    Another option is to have the entire top unit removable so that it can be swapped for a display. It could have other control surfaces like color correction and audio deck but people will always need to type so I doubt there would be anything more than physical or a touch display, which can show virtual controls.
    If they really wanted to do something glitzy and cool, they could make the surface of each key a display so they could create any kind of keyboard or custom layout. An App (or game) could put special controls or pictures on each key. There are 3rd party key pads that do this kind of thing, and people use them for CAD apps and such that have tons of menu items and functions (i.e.: you just hit the key to go into edge-chamfer mode, instead of pressing Shift-Alt-K or whatever).

    That would be showy, useful, and people could still actually type on it. Plus, they could evenly light up and the letters wouldn't wear off!
    I'm not sure how well the whole "FoxconnInsider" from 2016 saga is remembered, but they claimed that Apple was looking into Sonder's e-ink keyboard technology for this.

    cgWerks
  • Reply 72 of 75
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,952member
    Mike Wuerthele said:
    I'm not sure how well the whole "FoxconnInsider" from 2016 saga is remembered, but they claimed that Apple was looking into Sonder's e-ink keyboard technology for this.
    Thanks, yeah, I remember seeing things like that. I guess daytime use and battery-life become an issue. But, having something with color based on OLED or something would allow more flexibility (also, color helps find icons more quickly when the layout it custom).
  • Reply 73 of 75
    mcandremcandre Posts: 1unconfirmed, member
    LMAO I strutted into my local Apple store to buy a MacBook Pro with the "patched" 2nd generation butterfly keyboard. I tried a 13" demo model, typed a few sentences into TextEdit, then tried to launch zsh in Terminal. I was floored to see a butterfly failure in the flesh, as the Z key on the demo laptop was completely busted! Guess I'll stick with bash lol.

    I let a staffer know about this, and then I had an unrelated bad experience with a crappy salesperson about the iPad Mini 4. He wouldn't let me buy it, just kept upselling and talking his stupid head off. I left the store and probably the fanbase. Command key where my thumb rests on chiclet keyboard was the most productive aspect of their line of laptops for developing software and administrating UNIX servers, but I'm sad to say I think I'll ditch Apple's retrograde devices and grab a touchscreen Windows laptop (gross) or see about System76 and Wine support for the latest video games. Sigh.
  • Reply 74 of 75
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,952member
    mcandre said:
    I let a staffer know about this, and then I had an unrelated bad experience with a crappy salesperson about the iPad Mini 4. He wouldn't let me buy it, just kept upselling and talking his stupid head off. I left the store and probably the fanbase.
    Yea, while I'm sure it varies from location to location... the staff at Apple Stores in the 2000s was quite exceptional to what I've found when I've gone in over the last few years.
  • Reply 75 of 75
    The keyboard is problematic.  Dust and particles make the keys stick and frequent use wears the keys down so that the black part erodes letting the illuminating diodes shine through.  I am on my second MacBook and fourth keyboard.  On the first MacBook the Keyboard was replaced twice.  When it failed a third a time I was given a new MacBook.  On that machine the keyboard has failed twice.  I have no complaint, because I have Apple Care and the keyboard and the computer were replaced after I took the McBooks to the Genius Bar.  The only inconvenience was a one week wait on the first MacBook repair, a one week wait fo the second MacBook and one week wait on the replaced top cases for that.  Actually the top and bottom case was replaced at that time, because the battery stopped charging.  Gotta love Apple Care.
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