macxpress said: Honestly, I'd be extremely surprised if any Mac mini update did much for sales of it.
If you make a profit on every unit you sell, why does it matter how many you sell, particularly when you don’t bother to spend any of that profit on advertising?
macxpress said: So you don't and think just because you a couple people here want one that everyone wants it. Honestly, I'd be extremely surprised if any Mac mini update did much for sales of it.
It is a whole class of computing hardware Apple doesn't make except for on the very high end/cost. Why does any computer maker make non all-in-ones?
So no one interested in a mini desktop? What does the data say?
ziegmond void said: I disagree. Not sure how long it takes to redesign a new computer, but it sure doesn't take two years. They don't have to reinvent the wheel. Apple manages to come up with a new iPhone every year. Also it has been 5 years since the latest Mac Pro was released. FIVE YEARS! Apple knew it had a dud on it's hands as soon as that non upgradeable monstrosity hit the stores. They sat on it for 5 years. It's not as if they just found out last week that they needed a new Pro machine. Who in the computer world doesn't upgrade their computers in 5 years? No one but Apple. Point is, Apple just doesn't care about the Mac. We're not asking for much. Just upgrade their desktop computers once in a while, not every five years. And don't get me started on the Mac Mini, which was downgraded back in 2014. I can't dignify that release by calling in an upgrade.
Exactly! The only question that remains, is if they have realized this as a mistake and are going to correct it, or if they have just began talking recently and throwing a bone or two to try and keep us complacent until they discontinue the Mac.
What happen next week Monday will, IMO, be quite telling. If nothing substantial happens to the Mac lineup... I'm going to have to have a long hard think before we refresh several machines in the family (which we were planning to do). I'm going to have to evaluate if I'm ready to make the jump to Windows before buying new hardware, or if I need to create a 'get by' for a few years plan until I'm ready.
Surely, Apple wouldn't update the MacBook without fixing the keyboard. The lack of key-travel on the current keyboard makes it a nightmare for typing long articles or books. Then, of course, there's the reliability issues of stuck keys etc.
Unfortunately, it is quite likely they would. Once they go for that major a design decision, it's unlikely they will backtrack, IMO.
Just as many as you have for thinking it wouldn't be...
DuhSesame said: It's funny when I'm arguing that they need to be more efficient in their recent updates, people just shook their heads and say "they're not going to speed up and that's fine". I do heard that they're slowing down to have more time to fix issues, but that's bit too slow.
They need to slow down on the software and focus on quality. It seems they are doing this, but the results remain to be seen. But, they need to speed up on hardware refresh... not necessarily re-design.
Actually, they need to slow down on hardware re-design, IMO. They are getting into a situation where they seem to be doing re-designs for re-design sake to have something 'new' out there, and mucking it up in the process.
As for the keyboard though, I think it got its promise, well if not screwed up. It is kinda rare to have a “real” mechanical switch for a laptop, and the second-gen improved a lot compared to the first-gen, so I definitely don’t like the idea of go back to the rubber dome. Besides that, I think it’s fixable.
the problem is when they’ll fix it. The longer we wait, the less confidence toward them & their products.
DuhSesame said: So no one interested in a mini desktop? What does the data say?
Note... I'm also not just talking about the Mini here. Apple has no non-pro desktop that isn't an all-in-one (except the Mini). They just expect anyone who wants a desktop computer w/o the money for a Pro, to buy an iMac. While I'm sure that's a fine assumption for a pretty big percentage of people, the groups who'd like to use their own monitor(s) can't be all that small, either. (If it were, all the computer makers would just build all-in-ones, and there would be no monitor market).
While I don't have have the numbers (as Macxpress pointed out), the idea that there is no market for at least the Mini and possibly another model in the lineup simply doesn't match basic observation. (Of course, Macxpress being a fanboy, has the assumption Apple knows all, makes no mistakes, so therefore, there must be no market for them.)
DuhSesame said: As for the keyboard though, I think it got its promise, well if not screwed up. It is kinda rare to have a “real” mechanical switch for a laptop, and the second-gen improved a lot compared to the first-gen, so I definitely don’t like the idea of go back to the rubber dome. Besides that, I think it’s fixable.
Yeah, I agree. If the keyboard were reliable, I might not like it, but since others do, I'd just have to decide if I could put up with it or not (I use an external keyboard a lot anyway). So, it's mainly the likelihood of having an expensive repair or having to try and home-remedy repair all the time that really puts me off from these. (At least in regard to the keyboard... there are many other issues that make this design less than ideal for me.)
If this is true it shows Apple has the worst product update strategy in the whole business and are taking their customers for granted. The MacBook Pro's have processors that are 2 generations behind! Dell and others have introduced 8th gen intel processors months ago. Apple is a like a slow moving dinosaur. What is wrong with a MacBook Pro update every 8 to 12 months? We deserve better than this......
If there's nothing significant to update the MacBook Pro to then what should Apple do? Apple should just update the MacBook Pro for the sake of just saying we updated it?
But there is something to update MacBook Pro's with... the 8th gen of intel processors which are much faster than the 6th and 7th generations. The 8th gen devices were released in October of last year and updated in April of this year! IF it is true that MacBook Pro's won't be updated at WWDC then it would be a wasted opportunity to get these devices to be competitive. Apple used to move quickly when updating Mac devices. We can see with the Mac Mini and others that this desire has gone. They are no longer hungry.
A generation of Intel chips get released in stages over a year or longer. SOME 8th gen processors are already out. That doesn’t mean the chipsets that would be appropriate for a MBP are out. The hexacores that many think might be the next MBP chip are just now or about to ship.
Dell has six core processors out in their XPS 15 right now. As someone who is watching their 2011 MacBook Pro slowly die, it’s killing me that Apple is dragging their feet on releasing models with the new processors. If Apple is not ready to release an eighth generation Intel MacBook Pro, maybe they can at least lower the price on the current model so they are more in line with where they should be. The price was at a premium for the seventh generation, and look even worse now that they are outdated.
DuhSesame said: So no one interested in a mini desktop? What does the data say?
Note... I'm also not just talking about the Mini here. Apple has no non-pro desktop that isn't an all-in-one (except the Mini). They just expect anyone who wants a desktop computer w/o the money for a Pro, to buy an iMac. While I'm sure that's a fine assumption for a pretty big percentage of people, the groups who'd like to use their own monitor(s) can't be all that small, either. (If it were, all the computer makers would just build all-in-ones, and there would be no monitor market).
While I don't have have the numbers (as Macxpress pointed out), the idea that there is no market for at least the Mini and possibly another model in the lineup simply doesn't match basic observation. (Of course, Macxpress being a fanboy, has the assumption Apple knows all, makes no mistakes, so therefore, there must be no market for them.)
DuhSesame said: As for the keyboard though, I think it got its promise, well if not screwed up. It is kinda rare to have a “real” mechanical switch for a laptop, and the second-gen improved a lot compared to the first-gen, so I definitely don’t like the idea of go back to the rubber dome. Besides that, I think it’s fixable.
Yeah, I agree. If the keyboard were reliable, I might not like it, but since others do, I'd just have to decide if I could put up with it or not (I use an external keyboard a lot anyway). So, it's mainly the likelihood of having an expensive repair or having to try and home-remedy repair all the time that really puts me off from these. (At least in regard to the keyboard... there are many other issues that make this design less than ideal for me.)
I think it will be work just fine once they did what Appleinsider suggests, which is more reliable and a bit more travel (or feedback). I saw people start to like the new keyboard in the early days, so definitely not a good thing to give up.
tailstoo said: Dell has six core processors out in their XPS 15 right now.
The problem is the fanboys have just bought into the story that it's all Intel's fault (i.e.: tick, tock, tock tock...) and haven't even bothered to look at what is going on outside the Apple bubble.
DuhSesame said: I think it will be work just fine once they did what Appleinsider suggests, which is more reliable and a bit more travel (or feedback). I saw people start to like the new keyboard in the early days, so definitely not a good thing to give up.
Maybe like the Magic keyboard or something (compromise?), but I doubt they would do that. I'm sure they will just keep refining the reliability. I guess that's OK for people who like the lower-travel keyboard.
While I think I'm going desktop... if they fixed the keyboard issue, dumped the TouchBar (or made a real non-TouchBar model), I'd probably be OK with one then. Even if, I'd also rather not have that keyboard, would like a USB-A, don't want the big trackpad, etc. I think they will eventually get there. I use external keyboard/trackpad/mouse most of the time anyway and could live with it when mobile. I'd just rather have the previous design.
My main interest, is that my son has saved up enough to buy one and I've had a hard time getting him to hold off this long. So, I'm hoping for a refresh for him. For me, I'm hoping for a Mini or some news to help make my decision. I might end up with a 2013 Mac Pro, but I'm a bit hesitant to go there, too. A quad or six-core Mini w/ eGPU potential would be about perfect (assuming it doesn't sound like a hair-dryer).
tailstoo said: Dell has six core processors out in their XPS 15 right now.
The problem is the fanboys have just bought into the story that it's all Intel's fault (i.e.: tick, tock, tock tock...) and haven't even bothered to look at what is going on outside the Apple bubble.
DuhSesame said: I think it will be work just fine once they did what Appleinsider suggests, which is more reliable and a bit more travel (or feedback). I saw people start to like the new keyboard in the early days, so definitely not a good thing to give up.
Maybe like the Magic keyboard or something (compromise?), but I doubt they would do that. I'm sure they will just keep refining the reliability. I guess that's OK for people who like the lower-travel keyboard.
While I think I'm going desktop... if they fixed the keyboard issue, dumped the TouchBar (or made a real non-TouchBar model), I'd probably be OK with one then. Even if, I'd also rather not have that keyboard, would like a USB-A, don't want the big trackpad, etc. I think they will eventually get there. I use external keyboard/trackpad/mouse most of the time anyway and could live with it when mobile. I'd just rather have the previous design.
My main interest, is that my son has saved up enough to buy one and I've had a hard time getting him to hold off this long. So, I'm hoping for a refresh for him. For me, I'm hoping for a Mini or some news to help make my decision. I might end up with a 2013 Mac Pro, but I'm a bit hesitant to go there, too. A quad or six-core Mini w/ eGPU potential would be about perfect (assuming it doesn't sound like a hair-dryer).
Did the big trackpad getting the way all the time?
DuhSesame said: Did the big trackpad getting the way all the time?
I've only used one for several minutes at a time when stopping past them in stores... but it seemed to on those brief trials. Maybe the rejection is better than I think, though, and it's just my OCD about such stuff kicking in. It's certainly in the way of your hands, but maybe how much it actually interferes varies. I'd rather have the previous version.
We know that Bloomberg just reported fake news about the numbers of iPhone X sold . So now they let appear next wwdc less rich to favorite speculation in stock market. They still in this way without any real informations. Not right , not good.
Yes the headline "Apple's non-hardware focused event not likely to have much hardware" just doesn't have the same alarm.
mattinoz said: Yes the headline "Apple's non-hardware focused event not likely to have much hardware" just doesn't have the same alarm.
True... though I think we're all expecting hardware because that's what Apple is so behind in. Plus, they are supposed to be working on fixing stuff and stability this round of OSs, rather than new features.
So, if there isn't a bunch of new hardware, major alarm bells should be going off in our heads. There is ***ZERO*** excuse not to have a new Mini, new laptops, new iMac, etc with the latest chips and ports in them. If they don't have them, it proves their talk about the Mac still being important is just lip-service. If all the new stuff is aimed at the gimmicky consumer stuff, that's another pretty strong message of another kind.
So... if there isn't new hardware, what would they show?
mattinoz said: Yes the headline "Apple's non-hardware focused event not likely to have much hardware" just doesn't have the same alarm.
True... though I think we're all expecting hardware because that's what Apple is so behind in. Plus, they are supposed to be working on fixing stuff and stability this round of OSs, rather than new features.
So, if there isn't a bunch of new hardware, major alarm bells should be going off in our heads. There is ***ZERO*** excuse not to have a new Mini, new laptops, new iMac, etc with the latest chips and ports in them. If they don't have them, it proves their talk about the Mac still being important is just lip-service. If all the new stuff is aimed at the gimmicky consumer stuff, that's another pretty strong message of another kind.
So... if there isn't new hardware, what would they show?
Um, their software? Every year this comes up and I have to say the same thing. This is a developer conference, not a MacWorld. This should be all about their software, not hardware. Does it mean it will only be about the software, no, but if it is, this doesn't mean at all Apple doesn't care about the Mac. This was never meant to be a showcase to release new hardware. Its about the software, and how to help developers with their apps.
macxpress said: Um, their software? Every year this comes up and I have to say the same thing. This is a developer conference, not a MacWorld. This should be all about their software, not hardware. Does it mean it will only be about the software, no, but if it is, this doesn't mean at all Apple doesn't care about the Mac. This was never meant to be a showcase to release new hardware. Its about the software, and how to help developers with their apps.
Have you watched previous WWDC keynotes?
Yes, I agree that it is a developer conference... and the breakout sessions focus deep into the software (the kind of stuff they'd not show in the keynote). Plus, afaik, developers use Macs.
macxpress said: Um, their software? Every year this comes up and I have to say the same thing. This is a developer conference, not a MacWorld. This should be all about their software, not hardware. Does it mean it will only be about the software, no, but if it is, this doesn't mean at all Apple doesn't care about the Mac. This was never meant to be a showcase to release new hardware. Its about the software, and how to help developers with their apps.
Have you watched previous WWDC keynotes?
Yes, I agree that it is a developer conference... and the breakout sessions focus deep into the software (the kind of stuff they'd not show in the keynote). Plus, afaik, developers use Macs.
They don’t have to update in this WWDC, but then, it’ll be another 500 days till refresh...
Not it a good thing to do when your toughest supporters are now considering about leaving.
DuhSesame said: They don’t have to update in this WWDC, but then, it’ll be another 500 days till refresh...
Well, they could just announce hardware refreshes separate from WWDC. But, if they go that route, I don't think that sends a proper 'commitment to Mac' message.
DuhSesame said: They don’t have to update in this WWDC, but then, it’ll be another 500 days till refresh...
Well, they could just announce hardware refreshes separate from WWDC. But, if they go that route, I don't think that sends a proper 'commitment to Mac' message.
It’s better than nothing in that perspective. Plus, if they at least talk about it, it will still giving their users the confidence that they’re NOT waiting for nothing.
cgWerks said: Well, they could just announce hardware refreshes separate from WWDC.
But, if they go that route, I don't think that sends a proper 'commitment to Mac' message.
It’s better than nothing in that perspective. Plus, if they at least talk about it, it will still giving their users the confidence that they’re NOT waiting for nothing.
Yeah, that's acceptable. If they talk about what they are doing with the Mac, give us timelines or announce products that aren't available for a month or two, that would at least help. But, I don't think they can just say nothing, and then drop new Macs here and there over the next year. (Well, they could do that, but I think it would be a mistake.)
cgWerks said: Well, they could just announce hardware refreshes separate from WWDC.
But, if they go that route, I don't think that sends a proper 'commitment to Mac' message.
It’s better than nothing in that perspective. Plus, if they at least talk about it, it will still giving their users the confidence that they’re NOT waiting for nothing.
Yeah, that's acceptable. If they talk about what they are doing with the Mac, give us timelines or announce products that aren't available for a month or two, that would at least help. But, I don't think they can just say nothing, and then drop new Macs here and there over the next year. (Well, they could do that, but I think it would be a mistake.)
Like they acknowledged the issues, apologize for that, and what’s their next plan, especially something that haven’t updated for so long.
DuhSesame said: Like they acknowledged the issues, apologize for that, and what’s their next plan, especially something that haven’t updated for so long.
Well, they don't even have to go that far if they don't want. I know they screwed up, they know it too. I don't need an apology. I just need them to release some updated machines or tell me when they will be released so I can make decisions. And, if the news is that we won't see updated machines until late this year, early next... that's shows some real incompetence or lack of care (but again, at least we know).
There is no good reason we shouldn't see updates to the Mini and laptops tomorrow. We know the Mac Pro is 2019 (though that's silly too, but at least we know). The iMacs could be updated, but unless they include a video-in of some sort, it isn't really on my list.
DuhSesame said: Like they acknowledged the issues, apologize for that, and what’s their next plan, especially something that haven’t updated for so long.
Well, they don't even have to go that far if they don't want. I know they screwed up, they know it too. I don't need an apology. I just need them to release some updated machines or tell me when they will be released so I can make decisions. And, if the news is that we won't see updated machines until late this year, early next... that's shows some real incompetence or lack of care (but again, at least we know).
There is no good reason we shouldn't see updates to the Mini and laptops tomorrow. We know the Mac Pro is 2019 (though that's silly too, but at least we know). The iMacs could be updated, but unless they include a video-in of some sort, it isn't really on my list.
One thing I'm not sure is do they acknowledge the issue in the keyboard even back then, and this update will certainly address that. Other than that, I really think they should upgrade the spec of the screen somehow, like HDR and 120Hz ProMotion.
Comments
the problem is when they’ll fix it. The longer we wait, the less confidence toward them & their products.
While I don't have have the numbers (as Macxpress pointed out), the idea that there is no market for at least the Mini and possibly another model in the lineup simply doesn't match basic observation. (Of course, Macxpress being a fanboy, has the assumption Apple knows all, makes no mistakes, so therefore, there must be no market for them.)
Yeah, I agree. If the keyboard were reliable, I might not like it, but since others do, I'd just have to decide if I could put up with it or not (I use an external keyboard a lot anyway). So, it's mainly the likelihood of having an expensive repair or having to try and home-remedy repair all the time that really puts me off from these. (At least in regard to the keyboard... there are many other issues that make this design less than ideal for me.)
Dell has six core processors out in their XPS 15 right now. As someone who is watching their 2011 MacBook Pro slowly die, it’s killing me that Apple is dragging their feet on releasing models with the new processors. If Apple is not ready to release an eighth generation Intel MacBook Pro, maybe they can at least lower the price on the current model so they are more in line with where they should be. The price was at a premium for the seventh generation, and look even worse now that they are outdated.
Maybe like the Magic keyboard or something (compromise?), but I doubt they would do that. I'm sure they will just keep refining the reliability. I guess that's OK for people who like the lower-travel keyboard.
While I think I'm going desktop... if they fixed the keyboard issue, dumped the TouchBar (or made a real non-TouchBar model), I'd probably be OK with one then. Even if, I'd also rather not have that keyboard, would like a USB-A, don't want the big trackpad, etc. I think they will eventually get there. I use external keyboard/trackpad/mouse most of the time anyway and could live with it when mobile. I'd just rather have the previous design.
My main interest, is that my son has saved up enough to buy one and I've had a hard time getting him to hold off this long. So, I'm hoping for a refresh for him. For me, I'm hoping for a Mini or some news to help make my decision. I might end up with a 2013 Mac Pro, but I'm a bit hesitant to go there, too. A quad or six-core Mini w/ eGPU potential would be about perfect (assuming it doesn't sound like a hair-dryer).
Maybe the rejection is better than I think, though, and it's just my OCD about such stuff kicking in. It's certainly in the way of your hands, but maybe how much it actually interferes varies. I'd rather have the previous version.
So, if there isn't a bunch of new hardware, major alarm bells should be going off in our heads. There is ***ZERO*** excuse not to have a new Mini, new laptops, new iMac, etc with the latest chips and ports in them. If they don't have them, it proves their talk about the Mac still being important is just lip-service. If all the new stuff is aimed at the gimmicky consumer stuff, that's another pretty strong message of another kind.
So... if there isn't new hardware, what would they show?
Yes, I agree that it is a developer conference... and the breakout sessions focus deep into the software (the kind of stuff they'd not show in the keynote).
Plus, afaik, developers use Macs.
Not it a good thing to do when your toughest supporters are now considering about leaving.
But, if they go that route, I don't think that sends a proper 'commitment to Mac' message.
There is no good reason we shouldn't see updates to the Mini and laptops tomorrow. We know the Mac Pro is 2019 (though that's silly too, but at least we know). The iMacs could be updated, but unless they include a video-in of some sort, it isn't really on my list.