The Mac gaming landscape remains dire, with no improvements in sight

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  • Reply 21 of 67
    techconctechconc Posts: 30member
    elijahg said:
    If Apple continues on their path to deprecating and removing OpenGL it'll be even more dire for Mac gaming. There are quite a few games that've been ported from Windows fairly easily as they have either been designed with OpenGL in mind, or are OpenGL games which makes porting a lot easier. There are no Windows games designed with Metal in mind. Okay OpenGL is pretty ancient and slow, but the new alternative Vulcan, Apple's decided not to support. It's weird how Apple's always been so anti-gaming. They'd probably be the same on iOS if it wasn't the biggest source of iOS revenue.
    That's not how it works.  Most games use common gaming engines such as Unit, Unreal, etc.  Apple has worked with these companies and these gaming engines have been optimized for Metal.  OpenGL was holding Apple back from a performance perspective and games were never able to match their Direct 3D counterparts on Windows because of it.  It's fine to mention Vulkan now, but it was not available when Apple moved to Metal and it is currently quite a bit behind where Apple is today.  Open standards are great, but Apple has also seen the downsides of moving at a snails pace whereby every decision has to be made in a committee.  The point being, going Metal is not the barrier and quite frankly, it's no different from what Microsoft is doing.
    auxioRayz2016StrangeDaysrandominternetpersonfastasleepcommand_fwatto_cobra
  • Reply 22 of 67
    Rayz2016 said:
    Looking to the future, gaming on the Mac overall seems unlikely to get better.
    True. 

    The company isn't really interested in gaming for the Mac. But then they’re not interested in lots of things. If they thought they could bring something unique to the table then they’d probably have a crack at it, but gamers like large machines that can heat a small office; that’s just no in Apple’s DNA. 
    Last time I remember Apple was excited about gaming for Mac was when Halo was first demoed, then Microsoft gave a boatload of cash to Bungie and that's what saved the Xbox and kinda doomed the Mac as a viable gaming platform. 

    I am glad that iOS is flourishing. At least I can get a quick fix anywhere.  
    randominternetpersonelijahgwatto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 67
    If E3 is any indicator, there’s nothing being released worth playing–much less paying for–anyway. And that’s my time for this thread (beyond discussing actual hardware, that is); some of you know exactly what sort of thing I’m referencing.
    Still better than 1983. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 67
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,399member
    lkrupp said:
    Is the PC gaming market really that big?
    Several billion dollars. It has become a self-sustaining propaganda tool in its own right.
    Walking around in a Fry’s or MicroCenter the gaming PCs are humongous boxes with LED lighting flashing all over them, ugly as hell.
    Oh, I love those designs. Everyone needs to see a clown or a mime once in a while, you know? Certainly not all the time–clowns get annoying quickly–but if you’re walking along and you see a clown making an absolute fool of himself (cough Alienware cough), it brings a smile to your face.  :D





    I do play games–not so much “hardcore” as in “competitive” but as in “deep, esoteric, and varied”–and for the life of me I could never understand the mindset that would lead to WANTING your computer’s case to look bad, meaning like any “gaming” tower I’ve ever seen. I’m function over form, absolutely. If a “weird” design makes it possible for hardware configurations that otherwise couldn’t have existed, I’ll support that design. But… function is absolutely not improved by these forms.
    Still better than 1983. 
    I’ve been hoping for a repeat of the Crash since about 2009. All these companies need to be destroyed, not only for what they’ve done to the classical industry, but for what they’re turning games into. EA, in particular, needs to stop existing.
    edited June 13 elijahglamboaudi4watto_cobra
  • Reply 25 of 67
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,105member
    elijahg said:
    lovemn said:
    Isn’t most online gaming via browser?
    No.

    If Apple continues on their path to deprecating and removing OpenGL it'll be even more dire for Mac gaming. There are quite a few games that've been ported from Windows fairly easily as they have either been designed with OpenGL in mind, or are OpenGL games which makes porting a lot easier. There are no Windows games designed with Metal in mind. Okay OpenGL is pretty ancient and slow, but the new alternative Vulcan, Apple's decided not to support. It's weird how Apple's always been so anti-gaming. They'd probably be the same on iOS if it wasn't the biggest source of iOS revenue.

    Besides games there are lots of engineering tools that use OpenGL: Eagle, Kicad, Fusion360, Sketchup, AutoCAD... A lot of the tools simply won't support Macs anymore with the removal of OpenGL, it's not worth it for the tiny user base.

    Apple's the leader in the mobile field, so they can cut their own path and others will work to keep up. That same ideology won't work with the Mac and it's pretty pig-headded of them to think so. Considering Mac support is pretty much a token gesture for a lot of developers, they'll just stop supporting the Mac, to the detriment of Apple's customers. Apple's historic proprietary nature never went down well with anyone in years past, I don't know why they are heading back to that again. 
    But metal is used in iOS as well as MacOS, so it really isn't a tiny install base. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 26 of 67
    tshorttshort Posts: 42member
    ...and this is why I now have a custom-built Windows gaming machine. I still love the Mac for work, and as a portable computer, but for gaming, it's just not up to par. While many of the games I want to play are available on the Mac (e.g. WoW, Civ 6), they just don't look or play as well.
    edited June 13
  • Reply 27 of 67
    I’ve been hoping for a repeat of the Crash since about 2009. All these companies need to be destroyed, not only for what they’ve done to the classical industry, but for what they’re turning games into. EA, in particular, needs to stop existing.
    It is sad what has happened to EA. They were at one time a distant cousin of Apple. Trip Hawkins who founded EA was before, an Apple employee. I believe he took some of the things he learned at Apple and created EA. 

    Now they're just a gaming pimp. Out to put a new coat of lipstick on an old tired game and milk you dry until the next game comes out. 

    Some of the scum that managed parts of EA made it to Apple and started creating havoc there. Just read some Glassdoor reviews from engineers. They basically said Apple hired a bunch of managers away from EA and they are woefully under qualified and have made a lot of dumb decisions. 

    Kinda explains a lot of Apple's missteps these days. 
    elijahgwatto_cobra
  • Reply 28 of 67
    blastdoorblastdoor Posts: 1,875member
  • Reply 29 of 67
    blastdoorblastdoor Posts: 1,875member
    Some thoughts:

    1. Many people complain about Apple dumping OpenGL in favor of Metal. But the thing is, Metal is bigger than OpenGL for gaming because of iOS. Also, proprietary gaming APIs are actually more successful than open APIs. Look at Windows, Xbox, and Playstation -- all proprietary. 

    2. Apple's biggest problem with gaming on the Mac is the sordid past. So many changes of direction, dropped support, strange decisions. 

    3. I think Apple really needs to create some first party games that are exclusive to Apple platforms. If Apple can make carpool karaoke, Apple can make some games. Two advantages -- if the games are good, it might lead to more hardware sales but, even more importantly, it would help Apple to better understand the perspectives of game developers. 
    elijahgdigital_guycanukstormrandominternetpersonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 30 of 67
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 5,622member
    There are some iOS games that would be amazing on the Mac. Don’t disagree that having huge blockbuster titles are unlikely to show, but there are some incredible games that could possibly be ported to Mac under Marzipan. 
    Marzipan is about UIKit, while games are doing their own thing. If a game has been written for iOS they could do their own port to macOS without Marzipan being a factor. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 31 of 67
    First, Cupertino killed OpenGL a LONG time ago when they decided to stop incorporating ANY of it's advances into the MacOS. No they did not "kill" it in the past week, they killed it LONG ago.

    Secondly, here is an illustration of the difference between a desktop MMORPG and a iOS MMORPG. Computer game vs. a mobile game.

    For the desktop, let's look at World of Warcraft (hooray for Blizzard going Metal a few years ago). Roughly every 2 years, $50 bucks for a major expansion. Normally a $15/mo subscription, but if one plays somewhat regularly, one can buy game time with gold earned in-game. BUT, say you can't spend an hour or two in game every day, figure paying every other month, the cost is $230 for a 2 year run of the game.

    On iOS, let's look at Mobile Strike, also a MMORPG with millions of users/players. 2 months ago, the developer reset the game, meaning that everything that players built (that took considerable time AND a LOT of money to build... seriously, there were many who invested up to 10 grand on the game) were rendered totally useless. What remained was the blistering pace of newly introduced "things" that increased one's ability to actually wage the war the game was based on. Given that, to be competitive, one HAD to buy minimum of a "pack" of DLC every week. Oh, DLC is 100 bucks per pop. Every week, 100-200 dollars are needed to continue to "wage war" which is the point of the game. Don't buy anything for, say 2 weeks, you can easily be "zeroed" (i.e. lose all your troops, need a pack or two to rebuild them).

    The truly scary part is that while there are a LOT less players in for up to a grand every month, there STILL are those spending that kind of money. Skill and knowledge are no part of the game at all, the ability to spend a few hundred each week is the single measure of success in the game. You've all seen the expression "Pay2Win," this is one shining example of that.

    How I know this... yeah I was kinda on the train for a while last year... but DLC could be had for 20-30 bucks every other week. I rallied, I got kills, I had some soldiers killed, it was fun, especially the camaraderie with other players. But I also saw them ratcheting UP the pace on new and more powerful stuff literally every other day, so I stopped paying. But I continued to log in to chit-chat with my old buddies. When ya hear anyone from Apple saying there are games on our mobile devices, this is what they are (yeah, I know about all the Angry Birds type of games, "turn your brain off" games like that are fine, but know anyone playing those much after 6 months?).
  • Reply 32 of 67
    tylersdadtylersdad Posts: 136member
    frantisek said:
    Look at numbers. How many iOS devices are in use and how many macs. It is 1.3 billion v. 100 millions (80 percent laptops). Plus 1 billion PCs. That is huge difference that wont change. Only probably gap will increase as many people takes phone as primary computing device and are not using laptop or desktop any more.
    And increase in mobile/pc and console sales increase shows the trend. 29 % versus 4 % inctease.

    Who want play games buys console or PC as ganming machine. There is about 650 millions console gammers.

    How many of Mac users are serious gammers? Me not. Not talking about Tetris and similar. 25%?

    And as previous post says a lot of people play online games. As my girlfriend from Linux laptop.
    Who? Not sure. But after spending $1300+ dollars on a machine, it sure would be nice if it could do what other $1300+ machines could do. Namely, play games. And not just Candy Crush or Angry Birds.
    kirkgrayelijahg
  • Reply 33 of 67
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 5,622member

    bitmod said:
    20+ years ago at my old design house, we used wrap up early Fridays, grab some beer, and LAN game into the night... Warcraft and Marathon etc. (Original beige G3’s). 
    It cemented our love for the Mac platform, being able to do something other than Adobe, Corel, and ClarisWorks. 
    We took pride in our machines, maintaining them, upgrading them, loving them, they were an extension of our identity. 
    Now that magic is mostly gone. They are soulless tools for work. The 4th wife - you still love them, but meh. Mostly Utility. 

    What some here don’t understand (iPhone investors generation) is that gaming was part of the magic and mojo that kept people passionate about the Mac, and inevitably kept the company alive. It’s largely that same group screaming for true pro Macs - that we can get attached to, give some upgrade love to - instead of the one-night-stand iMacs we got now. 
    Weird because as an ex-gamer I recall gaming sucking on old mac pros like you mentioned during that era. Building a gaming rig (PC) was the only really good option. 

    You can still play less-intensive games like Warcraft on iMacs...I think the “magic” that is gone is in people’s own minds. While I’ve given up my PC gaming rigs, I occasionally dual boot my iMac or play mac ports of Bioshock 3, Payday 2, Left 4 Dead 2, etc... The machine can do it. Why aren’t you? That’s the answer to your “where did the magic go” question. 
    edited June 13 [Deleted User]watto_cobra
  • Reply 34 of 67
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 626member
    techconc said:
    elijahg said:
    If Apple continues on their path to deprecating and removing OpenGL it'll be even more dire for Mac gaming. There are quite a few games that've been ported from Windows fairly easily as they have either been designed with OpenGL in mind, or are OpenGL games which makes porting a lot easier. There are no Windows games designed with Metal in mind. Okay OpenGL is pretty ancient and slow, but the new alternative Vulcan, Apple's decided not to support. It's weird how Apple's always been so anti-gaming. They'd probably be the same on iOS if it wasn't the biggest source of iOS revenue.
    That's not how it works.  Most games use common gaming engines such as Unit, Unreal, etc.  Apple has worked with these companies and these gaming engines have been optimized for Metal.  OpenGL was holding Apple back from a performance perspective and games were never able to match their Direct 3D counterparts on Windows because of it.  It's fine to mention Vulkan now, but it was not available when Apple moved to Metal and it is currently quite a bit behind where Apple is today.  Open standards are great, but Apple has also seen the downsides of moving at a snails pace whereby every decision has to be made in a committee.  The point being, going Metal is not the barrier and quite frankly, it's no different from what Microsoft is doing.
    They do yes, but the higher tier games use custom engines. When referring to porting it means the game & engine has been converted to run on another system whereas games based on Unreal, Unity etc don't need porting as the engine natively supports the system. macOS is still on OpenGL 3.x whereas 4.x has been out for a loooong time with no Apple support. Apple could have open-sourced Metal as with Darwin, and it would no doubt have been popular and the development pace would have been set by them. Instead another standard has emerged later, and is seemingly gaining support at an accelerating rate. There are emulators for Vulkan to Metal, but of course those add significant overhead and again degrade customer's experience. It's not different from Microsoft's DirectX approach, only DirectX has a massive marketshare on desktops - pushing developers to use it similar to Metal on iOS - but Metal has not a scratch on DirectX on the desktop. 
  • Reply 35 of 67
    This doesn't bother me anymore... As I grow older, I game less frequently.  With limited time and enthusiasm, I have started restricting my purchases to only the most highly reviewed titles.  Last year, I purchased a Nintendo Switch to play The Legend of Zelda - Breath of the Wild (metacritic score 97).  To this day, I'm still searching for all 120 shrines (at 76 currently), doing side quests, finding korok seeds, and often just screwing around.  There's no need to hurry, the next Zelda title is still years away.  Something about Breath of the Wild really appeals to me right now... The world of Hyrule is mostly a quiet place to be, ducks on ponds, fish in streams, horses roaming through meadows, quaint and quiet villages... It's a far more relaxing world than the one I live in...  Even with the occasional Stalmoblin popping out of the ground to kill me.

    My point is ... I can play most all of the popular titles on my collection of consoles from Nintendo and PlayStation.
    My MacBook Pro can do what it does best ... Be My Mac.
    randominternetpersonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 36 of 67
    sockrolidsockrolid Posts: 2,788member

    Looking to the future, gaming on the Mac overall seems unlikely to get better.
    Evidently Apple doesn't need to pander to the hard-core-gamer Manbaby demographic.
    mcdave
  • Reply 37 of 67
    irnchrizirnchriz Posts: 1,564member
    As long as Blizzard keep making WoW available on macos then I will game on a Mac.  For all other games I use Xbox one x, PS4 and switch.
  • Reply 38 of 67
    That’s partially the reason that only Blizzard and Aspyr have seen the green of my bucks for the last several years. They are a minority among publishers as much as I am a minority among consumers, meaning, no macOS support, not on my radar!
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 39 of 67
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 1,353member
    There are some iOS games that would be amazing on the Mac. Don’t disagree that having huge blockbuster titles are unlikely to show, but there are some incredible games that could possibly be ported to Mac under Marzipan. 

    That's why I think they are getting rid of OpenGL and switching macOS to Metal2 so that a bunch of simple games can be ported to macOS (eventually).

  • Reply 40 of 67
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 1,353member
    blastdoor said:
    Years ago I heard a factoid that said PC games brought in more money worldwide than Hollywood.   At $50 for a game that makes Avengers 3 look like chump change.
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