A year with MacBook Pro: reviewing Apple's 2017 pro laptop models

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  • Reply 161 of 241
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,556member
    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    cropr said:
    Soli said:
    cropr said:

    In all fairness, the lack of 32GB on any model and 4-Cores on the 13" are squarely on Intel. They have a low-power 4-core chip perfect for the 13" but that just arrived this year. This cannot go on much longer. I'd really like to have something new by this time next year or sooner, preferably before Xmas.
    If the 32GB is purely the fault of Intel, how does Dell manage to have 32GB in some of the XPS configurations ?
    Those laptops weren't using LPDDR4 RAM.
    That is a totally irrelevant technical detail, when one needs a lot of RAM
    Battery life is kind of a big deal for the particular market that the MacBookPro is designed to, so yeah, the choice of LPDDR4 memory is an especially relevant technical detail. 

    More to the point, you seem to be quite happy buying Dells and running Linux, with a mix of MacBookPro's. Why the sad?
    And what's the particular market the Macbook Pro is designed for?  Would be nice to hear that response from Apple, so people can make the right choice.  And still, it's obvious that just one model is not enough to cover all professional users needs.  They even lack a discreet GPU in the MBP 13".  Compare that to Lenovo and HP mobile workstations, that have a low end (4-core processors, 32GB of RAM, thinner + lighter) and high end models (6-core processors, 64GB of RAM, larger + heavier) .  Wouldn't be nice if Apple could do the same?
    Easy.

    It's the market niche that makes the bulk of the profit in the PC business.

    Hence, why MS is so keen to compete against Apple with it's Surface product line; that's where the money is.
    It's always sad when company goes for the profit instead for the customers.  That's when you start to see lack of upgrades and bad keyboards, among other things.  As you said, MS it's in the same business, but at least, if they don't give Windows customers what they need, they can go to HP, Dell or Lenovo.  Different from macOS users, that have no options a part from Apple. 
    Putting in 32GB of DDR RAM into a laptop because foolish customers only know that 32 is higher than 16 without any consideration for actual need or how it affects the rest of the machine is the epitome of of going after profit instead focusing on the customer base. We see the same thing in countless other areas of CE, like when people talk about pixel count without the slightest consideration for the quality and accuracy of each pixel because it's easy for Dell to sell an ignorant customer on "more is better" but getting the customer to pay more for an actual better display experience isn't. So, yeah, I agree with you that it's sad when companies dupe people like you into thinking you're getting more because you can only understand the most superficial aspects of the machine.
    If you noticed, I posted examples of mobile workstations.  Most of the customers that have these devices know the benefits of 32GB of RAM, and there are cases where it's what they need for their workflow.  I prefer to call them "high end users" or "professionals" instead of  "foolish customers". 
    He didn't say that 'foolish customers' want 32GB of RAM. 
    He said that customers who demand 32GB of RAM without considering whether or not they actually need it, or how it affects other aspects of the machine, are foolish.

    What we have here is a load of people demanding 32GB of RAM because they read somewhere that 16GB wasn't enough for them. Meanwhile there are plenty of examples of professionals using the machine and are very happy with it? Why? Because they think for themselves. They tried the machine out, and made sure it fit their needs. That's how real professionals evaluate equipment. 
    chiafastasleeplamboaudi4
  • Reply 162 of 241
    danvmdanvm Posts: 708member
    tmay said:

    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    cropr said:
    Soli said:
    cropr said:

    In all fairness, the lack of 32GB on any model and 4-Cores on the 13" are squarely on Intel. They have a low-power 4-core chip perfect for the 13" but that just arrived this year. This cannot go on much longer. I'd really like to have something new by this time next year or sooner, preferably before Xmas.
    If the 32GB is purely the fault of Intel, how does Dell manage to have 32GB in some of the XPS configurations ?
    Those laptops weren't using LPDDR4 RAM.
    That is a totally irrelevant technical detail, when one needs a lot of RAM
    Battery life is kind of a big deal for the particular market that the MacBookPro is designed to, so yeah, the choice of LPDDR4 memory is an especially relevant technical detail. 

    More to the point, you seem to be quite happy buying Dells and running Linux, with a mix of MacBookPro's. Why the sad?
    And what's the particular market the Macbook Pro is designed for?  Would be nice to hear that response from Apple, so people can make the right choice.  And still, it's obvious that just one model is not enough to cover all professional users needs.  They even lack a discreet GPU in the MBP 13".  Compare that to Lenovo and HP mobile workstations, that have a low end (4-core processors, 32GB of RAM, thinner + lighter) and high end models (6-core processors, 64GB of RAM, larger + heavier) .  Wouldn't be nice if Apple could do the same?
    Easy.

    It's the market niche that makes the bulk of the profit in the PC business.

    Hence, why MS is so keen to compete against Apple with it's Surface product line; that's where the money is.
    It's always sad when company goes for the profit instead for the customers.  That's when you start to see lack of upgrades and bad keyboards, among other things.  As you said, MS it's in the same business, but at least, if they don't give Windows customers what they need, they can go to HP, Dell or Lenovo.  Different from macOS users, that have no options a part from Apple. 
    Putting in 32GB of DDR RAM into a laptop because foolish customers only know that 32 is higher than 16 without any consideration for actual need or how it affects the rest of the machine is the epitome of of going after profit instead focusing on the customer base. We see the same thing in countless other areas of CE, like when people talk about pixel count without the slightest consideration for the quality and accuracy of each pixel because it's easy for Dell to sell an ignorant customer on "more is better" but getting the customer to pay more for an actual better display experience isn't. So, yeah, I agree with you that it's sad when companies dupe people like you into thinking you're getting more because you can only understand the most superficial aspects of the machine.
    If you noticed, I posted examples of mobile workstations.  Most of the customers that have these devices know the benefits of 32GB of RAM, and there are cases where it's what they need for their workflow.  I prefer to call them "high end users" or "professionals" instead of  "foolish customers". 
    Fair enough, but Apple doesn't build those, albeit that having TB 3 does give you a pretty good go at running an eGPU, or other external hardware, which certainly looks to give a lot of "mobile workstation" benefits, while not actually requiring that Apple produce such a niche device.
    Have you seen the size of an eGPU?  One of the reasons to have a Macbook Pro is size, weight and mobility.  All of three disappear as soon as you a a eGPU in your bag.  It's good to know that eGPU can solve the lack of discreet GPU in MBP 13", but wouldn't better if Apple offered it, maybe as an option, like MS, Lenovo, HP and Dell does in their notebooks?
    edited June 2018
  • Reply 163 of 241
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,318member
    Rayz2016 said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    cropr said:
    Soli said:
    cropr said:

    In all fairness, the lack of 32GB on any model and 4-Cores on the 13" are squarely on Intel. They have a low-power 4-core chip perfect for the 13" but that just arrived this year. This cannot go on much longer. I'd really like to have something new by this time next year or sooner, preferably before Xmas.
    If the 32GB is purely the fault of Intel, how does Dell manage to have 32GB in some of the XPS configurations ?
    Those laptops weren't using LPDDR4 RAM.
    That is a totally irrelevant technical detail, when one needs a lot of RAM
    Battery life is kind of a big deal for the particular market that the MacBookPro is designed to, so yeah, the choice of LPDDR4 memory is an especially relevant technical detail. 

    More to the point, you seem to be quite happy buying Dells and running Linux, with a mix of MacBookPro's. Why the sad?
    And what's the particular market the Macbook Pro is designed for?  Would be nice to hear that response from Apple, so people can make the right choice.  

    Why do you need Apple to make the choice for you? Look at the machines, check the specs, see if it fits what you want to do. If it doesn't then buy something else.

    I just can't understand folk who's self-esteem is so tied to the Apple brand that they'll forgo a machine that will suit them better, and just wait for years for a machine that may not ever show up. There's a machine built for you out there, right now. What are you waiting for?

    No doubt a 32GB machine will turn up, but then you'll want USB-A ports, and Firewire Ports and SCSI ports, and so you'll still be here complaining and waiting for Apple to build a machine that doesn't fit their core customer base as it is now.


    You make it sound so easy!

    If you have decades on the platform and decades of documents to manage it isn't so easy, although its doable of course.

    Instead of turning a blind eye to all the issues currently surrounding the platform (Macs left to rot, others promised for who knows when, keyboard issues, repairability issues etc) I think its far better to make your feelings known than to quietly shrug your shoulders and abandon.

    Apple's Mac division isn't competitive (in the classic sense) anymore. That should be enough to get up Schiller's nose even if unit sales are healthy. I hope he does something about it or steps aside. Personally I might end up with a Windows machine but that will be down to Apple.

    Pretending everything is fine won't do anyone any good.

    If Apple is now the computer maker for hipsters perhaps they should come out and make some clarifying statements.

    I thought seeing the exact same iMac presented for TWO years running was a one-off. Maybe it wasn't.


  • Reply 164 of 241
    danvmdanvm Posts: 708member
    Rayz2016 said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    cropr said:
    Soli said:
    cropr said:

    In all fairness, the lack of 32GB on any model and 4-Cores on the 13" are squarely on Intel. They have a low-power 4-core chip perfect for the 13" but that just arrived this year. This cannot go on much longer. I'd really like to have something new by this time next year or sooner, preferably before Xmas.
    If the 32GB is purely the fault of Intel, how does Dell manage to have 32GB in some of the XPS configurations ?
    Those laptops weren't using LPDDR4 RAM.
    That is a totally irrelevant technical detail, when one needs a lot of RAM
    Battery life is kind of a big deal for the particular market that the MacBookPro is designed to, so yeah, the choice of LPDDR4 memory is an especially relevant technical detail. 

    More to the point, you seem to be quite happy buying Dells and running Linux, with a mix of MacBookPro's. Why the sad?
    And what's the particular market the Macbook Pro is designed for?  Would be nice to hear that response from Apple, so people can make the right choice.  

    Why do you need Apple to make the choice for you? Look at the machines, check the specs, see if it fits what you want to do. If it doesn't then buy something else.

    I just can't understand folk who's self-esteem is so tied to the Apple brand that they'll forgo a machine that will suit them better, and just wait for years for a machine that may not ever show up. There's a machine built for you out there, right now. What are you waiting for?

    And what option does a macOS user have when he/she needs a Macbook Pro with more than 16GB of RAM or a Macbook Pro 13" with discreet GPU?  The "buy something else" answer is not that good anymore.  There isn't a machine built for them because choose not to make it, not because it wasn't possible.  I heard that it's because it's niche or will be a low seller, but something doesn't add up when you see competition offering these options to their customers. 

    No doubt a 32GB machine will turn up, but then you'll want USB-A ports, and Firewire Ports and SCSI ports, and so you'll still be here complaining and waiting for Apple to build a machine that doesn't fit their core customer base as it is now.
    Too bad that high end users are not part of Apple core customer base.
  • Reply 165 of 241
    danvmdanvm Posts: 708member
    Rayz2016 said:
    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    cropr said:
    Soli said:
    cropr said:

    In all fairness, the lack of 32GB on any model and 4-Cores on the 13" are squarely on Intel. They have a low-power 4-core chip perfect for the 13" but that just arrived this year. This cannot go on much longer. I'd really like to have something new by this time next year or sooner, preferably before Xmas.
    If the 32GB is purely the fault of Intel, how does Dell manage to have 32GB in some of the XPS configurations ?
    Those laptops weren't using LPDDR4 RAM.
    That is a totally irrelevant technical detail, when one needs a lot of RAM
    Battery life is kind of a big deal for the particular market that the MacBookPro is designed to, so yeah, the choice of LPDDR4 memory is an especially relevant technical detail. 

    More to the point, you seem to be quite happy buying Dells and running Linux, with a mix of MacBookPro's. Why the sad?
    And what's the particular market the Macbook Pro is designed for?  Would be nice to hear that response from Apple, so people can make the right choice.  And still, it's obvious that just one model is not enough to cover all professional users needs.  They even lack a discreet GPU in the MBP 13".  Compare that to Lenovo and HP mobile workstations, that have a low end (4-core processors, 32GB of RAM, thinner + lighter) and high end models (6-core processors, 64GB of RAM, larger + heavier) .  Wouldn't be nice if Apple could do the same?
    Easy.

    It's the market niche that makes the bulk of the profit in the PC business.

    Hence, why MS is so keen to compete against Apple with it's Surface product line; that's where the money is.
    It's always sad when company goes for the profit instead for the customers.  That's when you start to see lack of upgrades and bad keyboards, among other things.  As you said, MS it's in the same business, but at least, if they don't give Windows customers what they need, they can go to HP, Dell or Lenovo.  Different from macOS users, that have no options a part from Apple. 
    Putting in 32GB of DDR RAM into a laptop because foolish customers only know that 32 is higher than 16 without any consideration for actual need or how it affects the rest of the machine is the epitome of of going after profit instead focusing on the customer base. We see the same thing in countless other areas of CE, like when people talk about pixel count without the slightest consideration for the quality and accuracy of each pixel because it's easy for Dell to sell an ignorant customer on "more is better" but getting the customer to pay more for an actual better display experience isn't. So, yeah, I agree with you that it's sad when companies dupe people like you into thinking you're getting more because you can only understand the most superficial aspects of the machine.
    If you noticed, I posted examples of mobile workstations.  Most of the customers that have these devices know the benefits of 32GB of RAM, and there are cases where it's what they need for their workflow.  I prefer to call them "high end users" or "professionals" instead of  "foolish customers". 
    He didn't say that 'foolish customers' want 32GB of RAM. 
    He said that customers who demand 32GB of RAM without considering whether or not they actually need it, or how it affects other aspects of the machine, are foolish.

    What we have here is a load of people demanding 32GB of RAM because they read somewhere that 16GB wasn't enough for them. Meanwhile there are plenty of examples of professionals using the machine and are very happy with it? Why? Because they think for themselves. They tried the machine out, and made sure it fit their needs. That's how real professionals evaluate equipment. 
    In my response I talked about high end users, that know of the benefits and need more than 16GB of RAM.  As you mention, there are users who don't need +16GB of RAM and they are happy, good for them.  So we should ignore the other group of professional users, that need more than 16GB of RAM? 
  • Reply 166 of 241
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,463member
    danvm said:
    tmay said:

    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    cropr said:
    Soli said:
    cropr said:

    In all fairness, the lack of 32GB on any model and 4-Cores on the 13" are squarely on Intel. They have a low-power 4-core chip perfect for the 13" but that just arrived this year. This cannot go on much longer. I'd really like to have something new by this time next year or sooner, preferably before Xmas.
    If the 32GB is purely the fault of Intel, how does Dell manage to have 32GB in some of the XPS configurations ?
    Those laptops weren't using LPDDR4 RAM.
    That is a totally irrelevant technical detail, when one needs a lot of RAM
    Battery life is kind of a big deal for the particular market that the MacBookPro is designed to, so yeah, the choice of LPDDR4 memory is an especially relevant technical detail. 

    More to the point, you seem to be quite happy buying Dells and running Linux, with a mix of MacBookPro's. Why the sad?
    And what's the particular market the Macbook Pro is designed for?  Would be nice to hear that response from Apple, so people can make the right choice.  And still, it's obvious that just one model is not enough to cover all professional users needs.  They even lack a discreet GPU in the MBP 13".  Compare that to Lenovo and HP mobile workstations, that have a low end (4-core processors, 32GB of RAM, thinner + lighter) and high end models (6-core processors, 64GB of RAM, larger + heavier) .  Wouldn't be nice if Apple could do the same?
    Easy.

    It's the market niche that makes the bulk of the profit in the PC business.

    Hence, why MS is so keen to compete against Apple with it's Surface product line; that's where the money is.
    It's always sad when company goes for the profit instead for the customers.  That's when you start to see lack of upgrades and bad keyboards, among other things.  As you said, MS it's in the same business, but at least, if they don't give Windows customers what they need, they can go to HP, Dell or Lenovo.  Different from macOS users, that have no options a part from Apple. 
    Putting in 32GB of DDR RAM into a laptop because foolish customers only know that 32 is higher than 16 without any consideration for actual need or how it affects the rest of the machine is the epitome of of going after profit instead focusing on the customer base. We see the same thing in countless other areas of CE, like when people talk about pixel count without the slightest consideration for the quality and accuracy of each pixel because it's easy for Dell to sell an ignorant customer on "more is better" but getting the customer to pay more for an actual better display experience isn't. So, yeah, I agree with you that it's sad when companies dupe people like you into thinking you're getting more because you can only understand the most superficial aspects of the machine.
    If you noticed, I posted examples of mobile workstations.  Most of the customers that have these devices know the benefits of 32GB of RAM, and there are cases where it's what they need for their workflow.  I prefer to call them "high end users" or "professionals" instead of  "foolish customers". 
    Fair enough, but Apple doesn't build those, albeit that having TB 3 does give you a pretty good go at running an eGPU, or other external hardware, which certainly looks to give a lot of "mobile workstation" benefits, while not actually requiring that Apple produce such a niche device.
    Have you seen the size of an eGPU?  One of the reasons to have a Macbook Pro is size, weight and mobility.  All of three disappear as soon as you a a eGPU in your bag.  It's good to know that eGPU can solve the lack of discreet GPU in MBP 13", but wouldn't better if Apple offered it, maybe as an option, like MS, Lenovo, HP and Dell does in their notebooks?
    One of the nice things about eGPU's that you apparently fail to understand, it that their thermal footprint resides outside of the base machine. TDP is one of the constraints of a mobile device, and users of eGPU's are not constrained by that. As far as eGPU users are concerned, it's just a TB 3 connection.

    The power supply of a mobile device is also a constraint;

    https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/surface-book-2-power-supply-issue/

    Some workflows don't require the performance of a "mobile workstation". They just need to be able to utilize an eGPU for a part of the workflow that can be done at their chosen workspace, where they would likely have multiple 4k and larger monitors setup as well.

    You really need to get out in the world and see what other people do with computers. Your parochial view of how computers are used is a bit embarrassing.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parochialism
    fastasleep
  • Reply 167 of 241
    lorin schultzlorin schultz Posts: 2,586member
    Rayz2016 said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    [...] I think the problem here is that Apple sees their system (hardware and software) in terms of tasks: what do people use them for? What is the quickest way for this person to get from the start of the task to completion. 
    That is an excellent observation. The difference between you and me is that I come away with exactly the opposite conclusion -- after having spent a couple years working with a touchscreen computer and a year-and-a-half with a Touch Bar Mac, I think a touch screen better satisfies that particular criterion.

    There will be cases in which the Touch Bar will be a better solution, but a touch screen is faster and more intuitive much more often. Instead of having to look away from the screen to identify a target, I simply point where I'm already looking. Further, I am not at the mercy of the developer to decide whether or not they want to implement access to particular control on the Touch Bar (or, as in the case of Avid, to not to use it at all), *I* can decide whether a particular action is best accomplished with the keyboard, a pointing device, or a screen touch.
    And for that workflow you have an iPad. 
    I'm surprised you're prepared to go out on that limb without knowing anything about how the touchscreen computer is being used.

    Look up the Ovation playback system from Merging Technologies. If you can come up with a way to implement something like that using an iPad I'd love to know about it. So would a lot of broadcasters.
    edited June 2018
  • Reply 168 of 241
    lorin schultzlorin schultz Posts: 2,586member
    Rayz2016 said:
    What we have here is a load of people demanding 32GB of RAM because they read somewhere that 16GB wasn't enough for them.
    I actually did read that somewhere. It was in the "System Requirements" section of the Pro Tools documentation!

    (While it really does recommend 32GB or more, I'm just teasing here. I know what you meant.)
  • Reply 169 of 241
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,556member
    avon b7 said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    cropr said:
    Soli said:
    cropr said:

    In all fairness, the lack of 32GB on any model and 4-Cores on the 13" are squarely on Intel. They have a low-power 4-core chip perfect for the 13" but that just arrived this year. This cannot go on much longer. I'd really like to have something new by this time next year or sooner, preferably before Xmas.
    If the 32GB is purely the fault of Intel, how does Dell manage to have 32GB in some of the XPS configurations ?
    Those laptops weren't using LPDDR4 RAM.
    That is a totally irrelevant technical detail, when one needs a lot of RAM
    Battery life is kind of a big deal for the particular market that the MacBookPro is designed to, so yeah, the choice of LPDDR4 memory is an especially relevant technical detail. 

    More to the point, you seem to be quite happy buying Dells and running Linux, with a mix of MacBookPro's. Why the sad?
    And what's the particular market the Macbook Pro is designed for?  Would be nice to hear that response from Apple, so people can make the right choice.  

    Why do you need Apple to make the choice for you? Look at the machines, check the specs, see if it fits what you want to do. If it doesn't then buy something else.

    I just can't understand folk who's self-esteem is so tied to the Apple brand that they'll forgo a machine that will suit them better, and just wait for years for a machine that may not ever show up. There's a machine built for you out there, right now. What are you waiting for?

    No doubt a 32GB machine will turn up, but then you'll want USB-A ports, and Firewire Ports and SCSI ports, and so you'll still be here complaining and waiting for Apple to build a machine that doesn't fit their core customer base as it is now.


    You make it sound so easy!

    If you have decades on the platform and decades of documents to manage it isn't so easy, although its doable of course.

    Apple's Mac division isn't competitive (in the classic sense) anymore. That should be enough to get up Schiller's nose even if unit sales are healthy. I hope he does something about it or steps aside. Personally I might end up with a Windows machine but that will be down to Apple.

    Pretending everything is fine won't do anyone any good.

    If Apple is now the computer maker for hipsters perhaps they should come out and make some clarifying statements.

    I thought seeing the exact same iMac presented for TWO years running was a one-off. Maybe it wasn't.



    Well, that's just it. In the amount of time you've been whining about it, anyone else would have already done it!


    In the amount of time that you have been complaining here, harking back to the good old days of parallel ports, putting up specs of your ideal machines, anyone else could have carried out a complete Fortune 50 IT migration. 


    Instead of turning a blind eye to all the issues currently surrounding the platform (Macs left to rot, others promised for who knows when, keyboard issues, repairability issues etc) I think its far better to make your feelings known than to quietly shrug your shoulders and abandon.

    And you've done that. And in response, Apple has carried on selling machines in either greater numbers, so why would they listen to you? Simple. They won't, and then you have to do what a proper manager would do, and simply cut their losses and move on. You being stuck where you are is not Apple's fault; it's entirely your own. You've made the decision to stamp your feet and hold your breath until Apple comes round to your way of thinking. Everyone else adapted or moved on. It's just business. 

    In the time you've been here, Macs have got slimmer, the number of different ports has continued to shrink. They have been steadily been moving in the opposite direction you want them to go, and in the same amount of time, they've picked up a whole new generation of users and sales have kept pace with or gone beyond the rest of the PC market where you will find your idea machine.

    Apple's Mac division isn't competitive (in the classic sense) anymore.

    'in the classic sense' meaning 'the sense that matters to me which is my ideal view of computers from the time that Blakes7 was still on the telly.'


    That should be enough to get up Schiller's nose even if unit sales are healthy.

    Why should it if unit sales are healthy? What should keep him awake at night is making sure the Mac stays on the bleeding edge, rather than falling back to cater for people who refuse to accept they're no longer in Apple's core demographic.


    Personally I might end up with a Windows machine but that will be down to Apple.

    By George! I think he's got it! Yes, you need a Windows machine. You are a Windows user! Embrace it! There's no shame in it.  Will it be down to Apple? Depends on your point of view. They refused to make the machine you want, but by the same token, you refused to adapt.

    Pretending everything is fine won't do anyone any good.
    Well, it's fine for me.

    Y'see, what's not fine for you may be perfect for someone else. The problem is that the 'someone else' is the person Apple is aiming for; they're mobile, more adaptable to change (which you clearly are not), and they're going to live longer than either of us.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


    If Apple is now the computer maker for hipsters perhaps they should come out and make some clarifying statements.

    Well, no, because they have more respect for their customers than that. They assume that folk who call themselves 'professionals' can look at a machine and decide whether or not it's for them, without Apple holding their hand. I mean, they're supposed to be professionals after all.  If you need Apple or any computer company to tell you whether a machine is suitable for you or not, then you probably shouldn't be attempting to buy machines yourself; you certainly shouldn't be trying to tell Apple what they should put in it.





    fastasleep
  • Reply 170 of 241
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,556member

    danvm said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    cropr said:
    Soli said:
    cropr said:

    In all fairness, the lack of 32GB on any model and 4-Cores on the 13" are squarely on Intel. They have a low-power 4-core chip perfect for the 13" but that just arrived this year. This cannot go on much longer. I'd really like to have something new by this time next year or sooner, preferably before Xmas.
    If the 32GB is purely the fault of Intel, how does Dell manage to have 32GB in some of the XPS configurations ?
    Those laptops weren't using LPDDR4 RAM.
    That is a totally irrelevant technical detail, when one needs a lot of RAM
    Battery life is kind of a big deal for the particular market that the MacBookPro is designed to, so yeah, the choice of LPDDR4 memory is an especially relevant technical detail. 

    More to the point, you seem to be quite happy buying Dells and running Linux, with a mix of MacBookPro's. Why the sad?
    And what's the particular market the Macbook Pro is designed for?  Would be nice to hear that response from Apple, so people can make the right choice.  And still, it's obvious that just one model is not enough to cover all professional users needs.  They even lack a discreet GPU in the MBP 13".  Compare that to Lenovo and HP mobile workstations, that have a low end (4-core processors, 32GB of RAM, thinner + lighter) and high end models (6-core processors, 64GB of RAM, larger + heavier) .  Wouldn't be nice if Apple could do the same?
    Easy.

    It's the market niche that makes the bulk of the profit in the PC business.

    Hence, why MS is so keen to compete against Apple with it's Surface product line; that's where the money is.
    It's always sad when company goes for the profit instead for the customers.  That's when you start to see lack of upgrades and bad keyboards, among other things.  As you said, MS it's in the same business, but at least, if they don't give Windows customers what they need, they can go to HP, Dell or Lenovo.  Different from macOS users, that have no options a part from Apple. 
    Putting in 32GB of DDR RAM into a laptop because foolish customers only know that 32 is higher than 16 without any consideration for actual need or how it affects the rest of the machine is the epitome of of going after profit instead focusing on the customer base. We see the same thing in countless other areas of CE, like when people talk about pixel count without the slightest consideration for the quality and accuracy of each pixel because it's easy for Dell to sell an ignorant customer on "more is better" but getting the customer to pay more for an actual better display experience isn't. So, yeah, I agree with you that it's sad when companies dupe people like you into thinking you're getting more because you can only understand the most superficial aspects of the machine.
    If you noticed, I posted examples of mobile workstations.  Most of the customers that have these devices know the benefits of 32GB of RAM, and there are cases where it's what they need for their workflow.  I prefer to call them "high end users" or "professionals" instead of  "foolish customers". 
    He didn't say that 'foolish customers' want 32GB of RAM. 
    He said that customers who demand 32GB of RAM without considering whether or not they actually need it, or how it affects other aspects of the machine, are foolish.

    What we have here is a load of people demanding 32GB of RAM because they read somewhere that 16GB wasn't enough for them. Meanwhile there are plenty of examples of professionals using the machine and are very happy with it? Why? Because they think for themselves. They tried the machine out, and made sure it fit their needs. That's how real professionals evaluate equipment. 
    In my response I talked about high end users, that know of the benefits and need more than 16GB of RAM.  As you mention, there are users who don't need +16GB of RAM and they are happy, good for them.  So we should ignore the other group of professional users, that need more than 16GB of RAM? 

    If it compromises a greater number of professional users who need greater portability, reliability, and a longer battery life, then perhaps, yes.
  • Reply 171 of 241
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,556member

    danvm said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    cropr said:
    Soli said:
    cropr said:

    In all fairness, the lack of 32GB on any model and 4-Cores on the 13" are squarely on Intel. They have a low-power 4-core chip perfect for the 13" but that just arrived this year. This cannot go on much longer. I'd really like to have something new by this time next year or sooner, preferably before Xmas.
    If the 32GB is purely the fault of Intel, how does Dell manage to have 32GB in some of the XPS configurations ?
    Those laptops weren't using LPDDR4 RAM.
    That is a totally irrelevant technical detail, when one needs a lot of RAM
    Battery life is kind of a big deal for the particular market that the MacBookPro is designed to, so yeah, the choice of LPDDR4 memory is an especially relevant technical detail. 

    More to the point, you seem to be quite happy buying Dells and running Linux, with a mix of MacBookPro's. Why the sad?
    And what's the particular market the Macbook Pro is designed for?  Would be nice to hear that response from Apple, so people can make the right choice.  

    Why do you need Apple to make the choice for you? Look at the machines, check the specs, see if it fits what you want to do. If it doesn't then buy something else.

    I just can't understand folk who's self-esteem is so tied to the Apple brand that they'll forgo a machine that will suit them better, and just wait for years for a machine that may not ever show up. There's a machine built for you out there, right now. What are you waiting for?

    And what option does a macOS user have when he/she needs a Macbook Pro with more than 16GB of RAM or a Macbook Pro 13" with discreet GPU?  The "buy something else" answer is not that good anymore.  There isn't a machine built for them because choose not to make it, not because it wasn't possible.  I heard that it's because it's niche or will be a low seller, but something doesn't add up when you see competition offering these options to their customers. 

    No doubt a 32GB machine will turn up, but then you'll want USB-A ports, and Firewire Ports and SCSI ports, and so you'll still be here complaining and waiting for Apple to build a machine that doesn't fit their core customer base as it is now.
    Too bad that high end users are not part of Apple core customer base.
    It could be that there are not enough of these "high end users" to make it worthwhile.

    Or it could be that what we're seeing is a small, yet vocal group of people who think they are unhappy, even though they've never even tried the machine. That might not be Apple's idea of a high-end user.
    chiafastasleep
  • Reply 172 of 241
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,556member

    danvm said:
    tmay said:

    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    cropr said:
    Soli said:
    cropr said:

    In all fairness, the lack of 32GB on any model and 4-Cores on the 13" are squarely on Intel. They have a low-power 4-core chip perfect for the 13" but that just arrived this year. This cannot go on much longer. I'd really like to have something new by this time next year or sooner, preferably before Xmas.
    If the 32GB is purely the fault of Intel, how does Dell manage to have 32GB in some of the XPS configurations ?
    Those laptops weren't using LPDDR4 RAM.
    That is a totally irrelevant technical detail, when one needs a lot of RAM
    Battery life is kind of a big deal for the particular market that the MacBookPro is designed to, so yeah, the choice of LPDDR4 memory is an especially relevant technical detail. 

    More to the point, you seem to be quite happy buying Dells and running Linux, with a mix of MacBookPro's. Why the sad?
    And what's the particular market the Macbook Pro is designed for?  Would be nice to hear that response from Apple, so people can make the right choice.  And still, it's obvious that just one model is not enough to cover all professional users needs.  They even lack a discreet GPU in the MBP 13".  Compare that to Lenovo and HP mobile workstations, that have a low end (4-core processors, 32GB of RAM, thinner + lighter) and high end models (6-core processors, 64GB of RAM, larger + heavier) .  Wouldn't be nice if Apple could do the same?
    Easy.

    It's the market niche that makes the bulk of the profit in the PC business.

    Hence, why MS is so keen to compete against Apple with it's Surface product line; that's where the money is.
    It's always sad when company goes for the profit instead for the customers.  That's when you start to see lack of upgrades and bad keyboards, among other things.  As you said, MS it's in the same business, but at least, if they don't give Windows customers what they need, they can go to HP, Dell or Lenovo.  Different from macOS users, that have no options a part from Apple. 
    Putting in 32GB of DDR RAM into a laptop because foolish customers only know that 32 is higher than 16 without any consideration for actual need or how it affects the rest of the machine is the epitome of of going after profit instead focusing on the customer base. We see the same thing in countless other areas of CE, like when people talk about pixel count without the slightest consideration for the quality and accuracy of each pixel because it's easy for Dell to sell an ignorant customer on "more is better" but getting the customer to pay more for an actual better display experience isn't. So, yeah, I agree with you that it's sad when companies dupe people like you into thinking you're getting more because you can only understand the most superficial aspects of the machine.
    If you noticed, I posted examples of mobile workstations.  Most of the customers that have these devices know the benefits of 32GB of RAM, and there are cases where it's what they need for their workflow.  I prefer to call them "high end users" or "professionals" instead of  "foolish customers". 
    Fair enough, but Apple doesn't build those, albeit that having TB 3 does give you a pretty good go at running an eGPU, or other external hardware, which certainly looks to give a lot of "mobile workstation" benefits, while not actually requiring that Apple produce such a niche device.
    Have you seen the size of an eGPU?  One of the reasons to have a Macbook Pro is size, weight and mobility.  All of three disappear as soon as you a a eGPU in your bag.  It's good to know that eGPU can solve the lack of discreet GPU in MBP 13", but wouldn't better if Apple offered it, maybe as an option, like MS, Lenovo, HP and Dell does in their notebooks?
    Wouldn't it be better if you … y'know … bought an MS, Lenovo, HP or Dell? The choice is there. Apple has always said it won't chase every market.
  • Reply 173 of 241
    danvmdanvm Posts: 708member
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:

    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    cropr said:
    Soli said:
    cropr said:

    In all fairness, the lack of 32GB on any model and 4-Cores on the 13" are squarely on Intel. They have a low-power 4-core chip perfect for the 13" but that just arrived this year. This cannot go on much longer. I'd really like to have something new by this time next year or sooner, preferably before Xmas.
    If the 32GB is purely the fault of Intel, how does Dell manage to have 32GB in some of the XPS configurations ?
    Those laptops weren't using LPDDR4 RAM.
    That is a totally irrelevant technical detail, when one needs a lot of RAM
    Battery life is kind of a big deal for the particular market that the MacBookPro is designed to, so yeah, the choice of LPDDR4 memory is an especially relevant technical detail. 

    More to the point, you seem to be quite happy buying Dells and running Linux, with a mix of MacBookPro's. Why the sad?
    And what's the particular market the Macbook Pro is designed for?  Would be nice to hear that response from Apple, so people can make the right choice.  And still, it's obvious that just one model is not enough to cover all professional users needs.  They even lack a discreet GPU in the MBP 13".  Compare that to Lenovo and HP mobile workstations, that have a low end (4-core processors, 32GB of RAM, thinner + lighter) and high end models (6-core processors, 64GB of RAM, larger + heavier) .  Wouldn't be nice if Apple could do the same?
    Easy.

    It's the market niche that makes the bulk of the profit in the PC business.

    Hence, why MS is so keen to compete against Apple with it's Surface product line; that's where the money is.
    It's always sad when company goes for the profit instead for the customers.  That's when you start to see lack of upgrades and bad keyboards, among other things.  As you said, MS it's in the same business, but at least, if they don't give Windows customers what they need, they can go to HP, Dell or Lenovo.  Different from macOS users, that have no options a part from Apple. 
    Putting in 32GB of DDR RAM into a laptop because foolish customers only know that 32 is higher than 16 without any consideration for actual need or how it affects the rest of the machine is the epitome of of going after profit instead focusing on the customer base. We see the same thing in countless other areas of CE, like when people talk about pixel count without the slightest consideration for the quality and accuracy of each pixel because it's easy for Dell to sell an ignorant customer on "more is better" but getting the customer to pay more for an actual better display experience isn't. So, yeah, I agree with you that it's sad when companies dupe people like you into thinking you're getting more because you can only understand the most superficial aspects of the machine.
    If you noticed, I posted examples of mobile workstations.  Most of the customers that have these devices know the benefits of 32GB of RAM, and there are cases where it's what they need for their workflow.  I prefer to call them "high end users" or "professionals" instead of  "foolish customers". 
    Fair enough, but Apple doesn't build those, albeit that having TB 3 does give you a pretty good go at running an eGPU, or other external hardware, which certainly looks to give a lot of "mobile workstation" benefits, while not actually requiring that Apple produce such a niche device.
    Have you seen the size of an eGPU?  One of the reasons to have a Macbook Pro is size, weight and mobility.  All of three disappear as soon as you a a eGPU in your bag.  It's good to know that eGPU can solve the lack of discreet GPU in MBP 13", but wouldn't better if Apple offered it, maybe as an option, like MS, Lenovo, HP and Dell does in their notebooks?
    One of the nice things about eGPU's that you apparently fail to understand, it that their thermal footprint resides outside of the base machine. TDP is one of the constraints of a mobile device, and users of eGPU's are not constrained by that. As far as eGPU users are concerned, it's just a TB 3 connection.

    The power supply of a mobile device is also a constraint;

    https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/surface-book-2-power-supply-issue/

    Some workflows don't require the performance of a "mobile workstation". They just need to be able to utilize an eGPU for a part of the workflow that can be done at their chosen workspace, where they would likely have multiple 4k and larger monitors setup as well.
    There are benefits in an eGPU, as you mention, but there are negatives too, as I posted before, like the mobility part.  You posted before about how important is battery life in a mobile device, and the eGPU forces me to work at a desk, while an integrated let me work as it was designed to be, on the road.  I'm talking about options.  I can purchase a 13.5" SurfaceBook2 with and without integrated GPU.  Don't you think that's nice to have?

    You really need to get out in the world and see what other people do with computers. Your parochial view of how computers are used is a bit embarrassing.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parochialism
    The definition of Parochialism is the state of mind, whereby one focuses on small sections of an issue rather than considering its wider context.  Don't you think that I'm seeing the wider context when I mention that there should options for all type of users instead of focus only in part of them?  Maybe you should go out to see how professional users have a wide range of needs, and for some reason we should ignore them when there are not the majority. 



  • Reply 174 of 241
    danvmdanvm Posts: 708member
    Rayz2016 said:

    danvm said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    cropr said:
    Soli said:
    cropr said:

    In all fairness, the lack of 32GB on any model and 4-Cores on the 13" are squarely on Intel. They have a low-power 4-core chip perfect for the 13" but that just arrived this year. This cannot go on much longer. I'd really like to have something new by this time next year or sooner, preferably before Xmas.
    If the 32GB is purely the fault of Intel, how does Dell manage to have 32GB in some of the XPS configurations ?
    Those laptops weren't using LPDDR4 RAM.
    That is a totally irrelevant technical detail, when one needs a lot of RAM
    Battery life is kind of a big deal for the particular market that the MacBookPro is designed to, so yeah, the choice of LPDDR4 memory is an especially relevant technical detail. 

    More to the point, you seem to be quite happy buying Dells and running Linux, with a mix of MacBookPro's. Why the sad?
    And what's the particular market the Macbook Pro is designed for?  Would be nice to hear that response from Apple, so people can make the right choice.  And still, it's obvious that just one model is not enough to cover all professional users needs.  They even lack a discreet GPU in the MBP 13".  Compare that to Lenovo and HP mobile workstations, that have a low end (4-core processors, 32GB of RAM, thinner + lighter) and high end models (6-core processors, 64GB of RAM, larger + heavier) .  Wouldn't be nice if Apple could do the same?
    Easy.

    It's the market niche that makes the bulk of the profit in the PC business.

    Hence, why MS is so keen to compete against Apple with it's Surface product line; that's where the money is.
    It's always sad when company goes for the profit instead for the customers.  That's when you start to see lack of upgrades and bad keyboards, among other things.  As you said, MS it's in the same business, but at least, if they don't give Windows customers what they need, they can go to HP, Dell or Lenovo.  Different from macOS users, that have no options a part from Apple. 
    Putting in 32GB of DDR RAM into a laptop because foolish customers only know that 32 is higher than 16 without any consideration for actual need or how it affects the rest of the machine is the epitome of of going after profit instead focusing on the customer base. We see the same thing in countless other areas of CE, like when people talk about pixel count without the slightest consideration for the quality and accuracy of each pixel because it's easy for Dell to sell an ignorant customer on "more is better" but getting the customer to pay more for an actual better display experience isn't. So, yeah, I agree with you that it's sad when companies dupe people like you into thinking you're getting more because you can only understand the most superficial aspects of the machine.
    If you noticed, I posted examples of mobile workstations.  Most of the customers that have these devices know the benefits of 32GB of RAM, and there are cases where it's what they need for their workflow.  I prefer to call them "high end users" or "professionals" instead of  "foolish customers". 
    He didn't say that 'foolish customers' want 32GB of RAM. 
    He said that customers who demand 32GB of RAM without considering whether or not they actually need it, or how it affects other aspects of the machine, are foolish.

    What we have here is a load of people demanding 32GB of RAM because they read somewhere that 16GB wasn't enough for them. Meanwhile there are plenty of examples of professionals using the machine and are very happy with it? Why? Because they think for themselves. They tried the machine out, and made sure it fit their needs. That's how real professionals evaluate equipment. 
    In my response I talked about high end users, that know of the benefits and need more than 16GB of RAM.  As you mention, there are users who don't need +16GB of RAM and they are happy, good for them.  So we should ignore the other group of professional users, that need more than 16GB of RAM? 

    If it compromises a greater number of professional users who need greater portability, reliability, and a longer battery life, then perhaps, yes.
    Lenovo and HP have portable devices that are reliable and with long battery life, without sacrificing options.  Would be nice if Apple would do the same.  BTW, the Apple + reliable thing have been questionable recently. 
    edited June 2018
  • Reply 175 of 241
    lorin schultzlorin schultz Posts: 2,586member
    Rayz2016 said:
    In the time you've been here, Macs have got slimmer, the number of different ports has continued to shrink.
    That last point is another common complaint about current Macs that I don't understand at all -- the idea that it has fewer port options.

    My current MacBook Pro has four ports:
    • The first one is every single incarnation of USB including 3.1 Type C, plus Thunderbolt 3, Firewire, ethernet, HDMI, DisplayPort, and power.
    • The second one is every single incarnation of USB including 3.1 Type C, plus Thunderbolt 3, Firewire, ethernet, HDMI, DisplayPort, and power.
    • The third one is... well whaddaya know... it's all those things too! So is the fourth!

    Need two HDMI ports? No problem. Thunderbolt for the RAID and USB-A for an audio interface? No problem. Remember that time you needed just one more USB port and stared in frustration at the unused ethernet port that you wished was USB instead? Now it is! I just plug in an adaptor for whatever protocol and connector type I need and away I go!

    In fact, each of the ports on this machine has so much bandwidth I can actually plug several devices into ONE connector! I have a little adapter, smaller than a pack of gum, that connects my whole Pro Tools setup -- ethernet, HDMI, power to the computer, and USB-A for the iLok -- with ONE plug!

    Yes, it requires having a few adapters. That seems like a perfectly reasonable way to drastically increase the capability and flexibility of my computer. The payoff FAR exceeds the incredibly minor inconvenience. I look at it like a little Lego kit that allows me to build whatever combination of inputs and outputs I want for any given situation.
    edited June 2018 tmayfastasleep
  • Reply 176 of 241
    danvmdanvm Posts: 708member
    Rayz2016 said:

    danvm said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    cropr said:
    Soli said:
    cropr said:

    In all fairness, the lack of 32GB on any model and 4-Cores on the 13" are squarely on Intel. They have a low-power 4-core chip perfect for the 13" but that just arrived this year. This cannot go on much longer. I'd really like to have something new by this time next year or sooner, preferably before Xmas.
    If the 32GB is purely the fault of Intel, how does Dell manage to have 32GB in some of the XPS configurations ?
    Those laptops weren't using LPDDR4 RAM.
    That is a totally irrelevant technical detail, when one needs a lot of RAM
    Battery life is kind of a big deal for the particular market that the MacBookPro is designed to, so yeah, the choice of LPDDR4 memory is an especially relevant technical detail. 

    More to the point, you seem to be quite happy buying Dells and running Linux, with a mix of MacBookPro's. Why the sad?
    And what's the particular market the Macbook Pro is designed for?  Would be nice to hear that response from Apple, so people can make the right choice.  

    Why do you need Apple to make the choice for you? Look at the machines, check the specs, see if it fits what you want to do. If it doesn't then buy something else.

    I just can't understand folk who's self-esteem is so tied to the Apple brand that they'll forgo a machine that will suit them better, and just wait for years for a machine that may not ever show up. There's a machine built for you out there, right now. What are you waiting for?

    And what option does a macOS user have when he/she needs a Macbook Pro with more than 16GB of RAM or a Macbook Pro 13" with discreet GPU?  The "buy something else" answer is not that good anymore.  There isn't a machine built for them because choose not to make it, not because it wasn't possible.  I heard that it's because it's niche or will be a low seller, but something doesn't add up when you see competition offering these options to their customers. 

    No doubt a 32GB machine will turn up, but then you'll want USB-A ports, and Firewire Ports and SCSI ports, and so you'll still be here complaining and waiting for Apple to build a machine that doesn't fit their core customer base as it is now.
    Too bad that high end users are not part of Apple core customer base.
    It could be that there are not enough of these "high end users" to make it worthwhile.

    Or it could be that what we're seeing is a small, yet vocal group of people who think they are unhappy, even though they've never even tried the machine. That might not be Apple's idea of a high-end user.
    Or maybe it's a vocal group of high end users that really need those specs, and are frustrated that Apple aren't offering it.  If you ask me, Apple idea of high end users is very confused. 
  • Reply 177 of 241
    danvmdanvm Posts: 708member
    Rayz2016 said:

    danvm said:
    tmay said:

    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    cropr said:
    Soli said:
    cropr said:

    In all fairness, the lack of 32GB on any model and 4-Cores on the 13" are squarely on Intel. They have a low-power 4-core chip perfect for the 13" but that just arrived this year. This cannot go on much longer. I'd really like to have something new by this time next year or sooner, preferably before Xmas.
    If the 32GB is purely the fault of Intel, how does Dell manage to have 32GB in some of the XPS configurations ?
    Those laptops weren't using LPDDR4 RAM.
    That is a totally irrelevant technical detail, when one needs a lot of RAM
    Battery life is kind of a big deal for the particular market that the MacBookPro is designed to, so yeah, the choice of LPDDR4 memory is an especially relevant technical detail. 

    More to the point, you seem to be quite happy buying Dells and running Linux, with a mix of MacBookPro's. Why the sad?
    And what's the particular market the Macbook Pro is designed for?  Would be nice to hear that response from Apple, so people can make the right choice.  And still, it's obvious that just one model is not enough to cover all professional users needs.  They even lack a discreet GPU in the MBP 13".  Compare that to Lenovo and HP mobile workstations, that have a low end (4-core processors, 32GB of RAM, thinner + lighter) and high end models (6-core processors, 64GB of RAM, larger + heavier) .  Wouldn't be nice if Apple could do the same?
    Easy.

    It's the market niche that makes the bulk of the profit in the PC business.

    Hence, why MS is so keen to compete against Apple with it's Surface product line; that's where the money is.
    It's always sad when company goes for the profit instead for the customers.  That's when you start to see lack of upgrades and bad keyboards, among other things.  As you said, MS it's in the same business, but at least, if they don't give Windows customers what they need, they can go to HP, Dell or Lenovo.  Different from macOS users, that have no options a part from Apple. 
    Putting in 32GB of DDR RAM into a laptop because foolish customers only know that 32 is higher than 16 without any consideration for actual need or how it affects the rest of the machine is the epitome of of going after profit instead focusing on the customer base. We see the same thing in countless other areas of CE, like when people talk about pixel count without the slightest consideration for the quality and accuracy of each pixel because it's easy for Dell to sell an ignorant customer on "more is better" but getting the customer to pay more for an actual better display experience isn't. So, yeah, I agree with you that it's sad when companies dupe people like you into thinking you're getting more because you can only understand the most superficial aspects of the machine.
    If you noticed, I posted examples of mobile workstations.  Most of the customers that have these devices know the benefits of 32GB of RAM, and there are cases where it's what they need for their workflow.  I prefer to call them "high end users" or "professionals" instead of  "foolish customers". 
    Fair enough, but Apple doesn't build those, albeit that having TB 3 does give you a pretty good go at running an eGPU, or other external hardware, which certainly looks to give a lot of "mobile workstation" benefits, while not actually requiring that Apple produce such a niche device.
    Have you seen the size of an eGPU?  One of the reasons to have a Macbook Pro is size, weight and mobility.  All of three disappear as soon as you a a eGPU in your bag.  It's good to know that eGPU can solve the lack of discreet GPU in MBP 13", but wouldn't better if Apple offered it, maybe as an option, like MS, Lenovo, HP and Dell does in their notebooks?
    Wouldn't it be better if you … y'know … bought an MS, Lenovo, HP or Dell? The choice is there. Apple has always said it won't chase every market.
    The sad thing is that macOS users that need those specs have no option, since Apple don't offer them. 
  • Reply 178 of 241
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,463member
    danvm said:
    Rayz2016 said:

    danvm said:
    tmay said:

    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    cropr said:
    Soli said:
    cropr said:

    In all fairness, the lack of 32GB on any model and 4-Cores on the 13" are squarely on Intel. They have a low-power 4-core chip perfect for the 13" but that just arrived this year. This cannot go on much longer. I'd really like to have something new by this time next year or sooner, preferably before Xmas.
    If the 32GB is purely the fault of Intel, how does Dell manage to have 32GB in some of the XPS configurations ?
    Those laptops weren't using LPDDR4 RAM.
    That is a totally irrelevant technical detail, when one needs a lot of RAM
    Battery life is kind of a big deal for the particular market that the MacBookPro is designed to, so yeah, the choice of LPDDR4 memory is an especially relevant technical detail. 

    More to the point, you seem to be quite happy buying Dells and running Linux, with a mix of MacBookPro's. Why the sad?
    And what's the particular market the Macbook Pro is designed for?  Would be nice to hear that response from Apple, so people can make the right choice.  And still, it's obvious that just one model is not enough to cover all professional users needs.  They even lack a discreet GPU in the MBP 13".  Compare that to Lenovo and HP mobile workstations, that have a low end (4-core processors, 32GB of RAM, thinner + lighter) and high end models (6-core processors, 64GB of RAM, larger + heavier) .  Wouldn't be nice if Apple could do the same?
    Easy.

    It's the market niche that makes the bulk of the profit in the PC business.

    Hence, why MS is so keen to compete against Apple with it's Surface product line; that's where the money is.
    It's always sad when company goes for the profit instead for the customers.  That's when you start to see lack of upgrades and bad keyboards, among other things.  As you said, MS it's in the same business, but at least, if they don't give Windows customers what they need, they can go to HP, Dell or Lenovo.  Different from macOS users, that have no options a part from Apple. 
    Putting in 32GB of DDR RAM into a laptop because foolish customers only know that 32 is higher than 16 without any consideration for actual need or how it affects the rest of the machine is the epitome of of going after profit instead focusing on the customer base. We see the same thing in countless other areas of CE, like when people talk about pixel count without the slightest consideration for the quality and accuracy of each pixel because it's easy for Dell to sell an ignorant customer on "more is better" but getting the customer to pay more for an actual better display experience isn't. So, yeah, I agree with you that it's sad when companies dupe people like you into thinking you're getting more because you can only understand the most superficial aspects of the machine.
    If you noticed, I posted examples of mobile workstations.  Most of the customers that have these devices know the benefits of 32GB of RAM, and there are cases where it's what they need for their workflow.  I prefer to call them "high end users" or "professionals" instead of  "foolish customers". 
    Fair enough, but Apple doesn't build those, albeit that having TB 3 does give you a pretty good go at running an eGPU, or other external hardware, which certainly looks to give a lot of "mobile workstation" benefits, while not actually requiring that Apple produce such a niche device.
    Have you seen the size of an eGPU?  One of the reasons to have a Macbook Pro is size, weight and mobility.  All of three disappear as soon as you a a eGPU in your bag.  It's good to know that eGPU can solve the lack of discreet GPU in MBP 13", but wouldn't better if Apple offered it, maybe as an option, like MS, Lenovo, HP and Dell does in their notebooks?
    Wouldn't it be better if you … y'know … bought an MS, Lenovo, HP or Dell? The choice is there. Apple has always said it won't chase every market.
    The sad thing is that macOS users that need those specs have no option, since Apple don't offer them. 
    I get the impression that you aren't a Mac user. T/F?
  • Reply 179 of 241
    danvmdanvm Posts: 708member
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    Rayz2016 said:

    danvm said:
    tmay said:

    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    cropr said:
    Soli said:
    cropr said:

    In all fairness, the lack of 32GB on any model and 4-Cores on the 13" are squarely on Intel. They have a low-power 4-core chip perfect for the 13" but that just arrived this year. This cannot go on much longer. I'd really like to have something new by this time next year or sooner, preferably before Xmas.
    If the 32GB is purely the fault of Intel, how does Dell manage to have 32GB in some of the XPS configurations ?
    Those laptops weren't using LPDDR4 RAM.
    That is a totally irrelevant technical detail, when one needs a lot of RAM
    Battery life is kind of a big deal for the particular market that the MacBookPro is designed to, so yeah, the choice of LPDDR4 memory is an especially relevant technical detail. 

    More to the point, you seem to be quite happy buying Dells and running Linux, with a mix of MacBookPro's. Why the sad?
    And what's the particular market the Macbook Pro is designed for?  Would be nice to hear that response from Apple, so people can make the right choice.  And still, it's obvious that just one model is not enough to cover all professional users needs.  They even lack a discreet GPU in the MBP 13".  Compare that to Lenovo and HP mobile workstations, that have a low end (4-core processors, 32GB of RAM, thinner + lighter) and high end models (6-core processors, 64GB of RAM, larger + heavier) .  Wouldn't be nice if Apple could do the same?
    Easy.

    It's the market niche that makes the bulk of the profit in the PC business.

    Hence, why MS is so keen to compete against Apple with it's Surface product line; that's where the money is.
    It's always sad when company goes for the profit instead for the customers.  That's when you start to see lack of upgrades and bad keyboards, among other things.  As you said, MS it's in the same business, but at least, if they don't give Windows customers what they need, they can go to HP, Dell or Lenovo.  Different from macOS users, that have no options a part from Apple. 
    Putting in 32GB of DDR RAM into a laptop because foolish customers only know that 32 is higher than 16 without any consideration for actual need or how it affects the rest of the machine is the epitome of of going after profit instead focusing on the customer base. We see the same thing in countless other areas of CE, like when people talk about pixel count without the slightest consideration for the quality and accuracy of each pixel because it's easy for Dell to sell an ignorant customer on "more is better" but getting the customer to pay more for an actual better display experience isn't. So, yeah, I agree with you that it's sad when companies dupe people like you into thinking you're getting more because you can only understand the most superficial aspects of the machine.
    If you noticed, I posted examples of mobile workstations.  Most of the customers that have these devices know the benefits of 32GB of RAM, and there are cases where it's what they need for their workflow.  I prefer to call them "high end users" or "professionals" instead of  "foolish customers". 
    Fair enough, but Apple doesn't build those, albeit that having TB 3 does give you a pretty good go at running an eGPU, or other external hardware, which certainly looks to give a lot of "mobile workstation" benefits, while not actually requiring that Apple produce such a niche device.
    Have you seen the size of an eGPU?  One of the reasons to have a Macbook Pro is size, weight and mobility.  All of three disappear as soon as you a a eGPU in your bag.  It's good to know that eGPU can solve the lack of discreet GPU in MBP 13", but wouldn't better if Apple offered it, maybe as an option, like MS, Lenovo, HP and Dell does in their notebooks?
    Wouldn't it be better if you … y'know … bought an MS, Lenovo, HP or Dell? The choice is there. Apple has always said it won't chase every market.
    The sad thing is that macOS users that need those specs have no option, since Apple don't offer them. 
    I get the impression that you aren't a Mac user. T/F?
     I own a MBP 13" 2017, that I consider a very nice notebook, and not excellent, because of the keyboard. 
  • Reply 180 of 241
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,463member
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    Rayz2016 said:

    danvm said:
    tmay said:

    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    tmay said:
    cropr said:
    Soli said:
    cropr said:

    In all fairness, the lack of 32GB on any model and 4-Cores on the 13" are squarely on Intel. They have a low-power 4-core chip perfect for the 13" but that just arrived this year. This cannot go on much longer. I'd really like to have something new by this time next year or sooner, preferably before Xmas.
    If the 32GB is purely the fault of Intel, how does Dell manage to have 32GB in some of the XPS configurations ?
    Those laptops weren't using LPDDR4 RAM.
    That is a totally irrelevant technical detail, when one needs a lot of RAM
    Battery life is kind of a big deal for the particular market that the MacBookPro is designed to, so yeah, the choice of LPDDR4 memory is an especially relevant technical detail. 

    More to the point, you seem to be quite happy buying Dells and running Linux, with a mix of MacBookPro's. Why the sad?
    And what's the particular market the Macbook Pro is designed for?  Would be nice to hear that response from Apple, so people can make the right choice.  And still, it's obvious that just one model is not enough to cover all professional users needs.  They even lack a discreet GPU in the MBP 13".  Compare that to Lenovo and HP mobile workstations, that have a low end (4-core processors, 32GB of RAM, thinner + lighter) and high end models (6-core processors, 64GB of RAM, larger + heavier) .  Wouldn't be nice if Apple could do the same?
    Easy.

    It's the market niche that makes the bulk of the profit in the PC business.

    Hence, why MS is so keen to compete against Apple with it's Surface product line; that's where the money is.
    It's always sad when company goes for the profit instead for the customers.  That's when you start to see lack of upgrades and bad keyboards, among other things.  As you said, MS it's in the same business, but at least, if they don't give Windows customers what they need, they can go to HP, Dell or Lenovo.  Different from macOS users, that have no options a part from Apple. 
    Putting in 32GB of DDR RAM into a laptop because foolish customers only know that 32 is higher than 16 without any consideration for actual need or how it affects the rest of the machine is the epitome of of going after profit instead focusing on the customer base. We see the same thing in countless other areas of CE, like when people talk about pixel count without the slightest consideration for the quality and accuracy of each pixel because it's easy for Dell to sell an ignorant customer on "more is better" but getting the customer to pay more for an actual better display experience isn't. So, yeah, I agree with you that it's sad when companies dupe people like you into thinking you're getting more because you can only understand the most superficial aspects of the machine.
    If you noticed, I posted examples of mobile workstations.  Most of the customers that have these devices know the benefits of 32GB of RAM, and there are cases where it's what they need for their workflow.  I prefer to call them "high end users" or "professionals" instead of  "foolish customers". 
    Fair enough, but Apple doesn't build those, albeit that having TB 3 does give you a pretty good go at running an eGPU, or other external hardware, which certainly looks to give a lot of "mobile workstation" benefits, while not actually requiring that Apple produce such a niche device.
    Have you seen the size of an eGPU?  One of the reasons to have a Macbook Pro is size, weight and mobility.  All of three disappear as soon as you a a eGPU in your bag.  It's good to know that eGPU can solve the lack of discreet GPU in MBP 13", but wouldn't better if Apple offered it, maybe as an option, like MS, Lenovo, HP and Dell does in their notebooks?
    Wouldn't it be better if you … y'know … bought an MS, Lenovo, HP or Dell? The choice is there. Apple has always said it won't chase every market.
    The sad thing is that macOS users that need those specs have no option, since Apple don't offer them. 
    I get the impression that you aren't a Mac user. T/F?
     I own a MBP 13" 2017, that I consider a very nice notebook, and not excellent, because of the keyboard. 
    So, should I assume that you are satisfied with the integrated graphics performance?
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