The Touch Bar on the MacBook Pro is well implemented, but serves no useful purpose

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  • Reply 141 of 190
    KITAKITA Posts: 160member
    Soli said:

    Your comment is asinine because you make a ridiculous "Agreed" statement to the OP that implies Apple hasn't updated to newer Intel processors cause they invested in the Touch Bar years ago. It's a silly post hoc fallacy that has nothing to do with this editorial.
    Instead of putting R&D towards making the Touch Bar fit in the chassis, they could have spent the time fitting better hardware. It's directly related. The Touch Bar is a waste. It adds to Apple's cost, which adds to the consumer's cost. Nothing about that is asinine, only your attempts to defend his comment.
    avon b7
  • Reply 142 of 190
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,556member
    KITA said:
    gbdoc said:
    Touch bar's like pyjamas on a horse: cute, arguably even cool, but totally unnecessary, let alone useful. Drop it, Apple, save the money for improving the innards.
    Agreed!

    I mean, just look at this:


    Yes, just look!

    You posted a picture with no details of how the test was carried out and  no mention of the memory used in any machine. 

    Oh, and the PC laptop only has a 4K screen and the battery lasts 4 hours.  
    Solipscooter63
  • Reply 143 of 190
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,556member
    k2kw said:

    It sounded like a good idea to solve two problems.   But, it just didn't work in practice.

    Time to move on.   Nothing to see here folks!
    And that is why we are getting Marzipan.  Apple has realiz4d that supporting two main operating systems (besides tvOS and watchOS) is too much work and need to unify them.
    You have no idea what Marzipan is. 

    🤦🏾‍♂️
  • Reply 144 of 190
    lorin schultzlorin schultz Posts: 2,582member
    MacPro said:
    I so well remember having to hold classes to teach people how to use a Mac's mouse back in the day.  My poor training staff had to take a lot of flack.  At least half of most classes at our Apple Store training sessions could not get it, they claimed no ability to coordinate their hand movement with what they wanted to do on screen.  Many argued typing was faster.  Many became frustrated and angry claiming it was ridiculous and was just a gimmick from Apple.
    If the Touch Bar becomes as ubiquitous and useful as a mouse I will very gladly eat my words. It would make me happy to be wrong.

    Despite the validity of your example, the trainees were actually right about one thing: keyboard commands are faster. In my professional circles, the Ninjas are those who know all the keyboard shortcuts that allow them to fly through sessions without having to reach for the mouse.
    cgWerks
  • Reply 145 of 190
    lorin schultzlorin schultz Posts: 2,582member

    Soli said:
    KITA said:
    DuhSesame said:
    KITA said:
    DuhSesame said:
    KITA said:
    gbdoc said:
    Touch bar's like pyjamas on a horse: cute, arguably even cool, but totally unnecessary, let alone useful. Drop it, Apple, save the money for improving the innards.
    Agreed!

    I mean, just look at this:


    I'm not even interest in how he tested his device.
    The benefits of CUDA in Premiere Pro is no secret. The 2018 Aero 15X sweeps the 2017 MacBook Pro.

    In Dave Lee's words:

    If you're an Adobe user, and you're looking to buy a new computer, and you're looking at a MacBook Pro. You're wrong. That's the wrong device. You need to be buying a Windows laptop right now.

    Sure.

    Frankly, my dear, I don't care.
    If you actually didn't care, you wouldn't have posted a snide comment in the first place.
    There's nothing derogatory or mocking in his statement. Is it merely dismissive of your silly post, which I wholeheartedly agree.

    EDIT: Never mind, I saw your answer further down the thread. 


    I don't understand what's silly about it. If one platform offers a significant advantage over the other for a particular kind of work, isn't that important information? It's entirely possible I'm overlooking something here, so if you feel like explaining your objection to his post, my mind is open.
    edited July 2018 cgWerks
  • Reply 146 of 190
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,556member
    I am surprised that no one has mentioned the biggest problem with the TouchBar. It is unusable for someone who is visually impaired. I have a friend that has used the MacIntosh since the first one in 1984. He uses all of the accessibility options for a visually impaired person. He cannot see or feel the different keys on the TouchBar. This is the first computer that Apple has made that he cannot use at all. He actually bought one and had to return it when he couldn't use it. He is a touch typist and had problems when they changed the spacing on the keys before the TouchBar, but nothing like the ones he had with the TouchBar. He uses the esc key to read to him what he has selected on the screen. He can't find the esc key. Since he can't feel it, he doesn't know when he is on it. His vision is bad enough that the minimum size he can see on the screen is expanded 20 times. So imagine a TouchBar that you can't see or feel and that moves what is on it, depending on what application you are in.

    i am very disappointed in Apple, since in the past they were always the best for visually impaired people. In this case they obviously never even thought about the effect on this group of people at all. Just so you know, I prefer to use MacIntosh computers. I was employed at Apple for 12 years as a software engineer. 

     Blackbird

    With the accessibility option switched on, you can put your finger on the touch bar and it will read out loud the key under your finger. Swiping your finger left and right will switch the focus to the next/previous key. There seems to be a raft of other shortcuts and gestures to help the visually impaired and those with restricted movement to use the touch bar. 

    https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT207258

    Have to say, I’m somewhat surprised that someone who worked at Apple as a software engineer for 12 years didn’t think to help his friend search the support documents, or thought that Apple would build any user interface without accessibility in mind. 
    Solimuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 147 of 190
    lorin schultzlorin schultz Posts: 2,582member
    Rayz2016 said:
    Oh, and the PC laptop only has a 4K screen and the battery lasts 4 hours.  
    I like the fact that I can run my Mac on the battery for several hours, but I might be willing to give up some of that time if doing so resulted in my work being done significantly faster. In fact, if we accept the results posted above at face value, I wouldn't NEED as much battery time because the improved operating speed would cut hours off the time required to complete a project! :)

    Unfortunately, increased speed usually results in increased noise as well, because the machine runs hotter and requires more fan cooling. I really appreciate how quietly this generation runs and wouldn't want to give that up.
    cgWerksmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 148 of 190
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 2,394member
    jkichline said:
    OK I’m going to be the contrarian... it does come in handy at times. For instance...

    1) When plugging in an external screen, it immediately gives you an opportunity to choose the mode for that screen (mirror or extend) without needing to find the display preferences.

    2) I can easily start and control a video without moving the mouse on an external display that causes UI to appear. This is useful when using the Mac to play videos to a live audience.

    3) Starting and controlling keynote presentations during live use.

    4) Adjusting audio levels of video/audio live without any screen UI and fluidly.


    1) "Show mirroring options in the menu bar when available."

    2) space bar or other keys?

    3) what? Presentation mode puts all the controls on your local screen and the presentation alone is on the public display: 
    https://support.apple.com/kb/PH16964?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US

    numenorean
  • Reply 149 of 190
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 2,394member

    KITA said:
    Soli said:
    KITA said:
    DuhSesame said:
    KITA said:
    DuhSesame said:
    KITA said:
    gbdoc said:
    Touch bar's like pyjamas on a horse: cute, arguably even cool, but totally unnecessary, let alone useful. Drop it, Apple, save the money for improving the innards.
    Agreed!

    I mean, just look at this:


    I'm not even interest in how he tested his device.
    The benefits of CUDA in Premiere Pro is no secret. The 2018 Aero 15X sweeps the 2017 MacBook Pro.

    In Dave Lee's words:

    If you're an Adobe user, and you're looking to buy a new computer, and you're looking at a MacBook Pro. You're wrong. That's the wrong device. You need to be buying a Windows laptop right now.

    Sure.

    Frankly, my dear, I don't care.
    If you actually didn't care, you wouldn't have posted a snide comment in the first place.
    There's nothing derogatory or mocking in his statement. Is it merely dismissive of your silly post, which I wholeheartedly agree.
    He went out of his way to make the statement. It's quite obviously mocking as he doesn't even bother to address the issue.

    There's nothing silly about it. It's completely true. The internals of the MacBook Pro are in need of an update. If you're a creative and use Adobe software, the MacBook Pro is simply put, the wrong tool.
    Works fine for me, or at least as well as Adobe software ever works, and my MBP is 7 years old. 
  • Reply 150 of 190
    DuhSesameDuhSesame Posts: 399member
    KITA said:
    Soli said:

    Your comment is asinine because you make a ridiculous "Agreed" statement to the OP that implies Apple hasn't updated to newer Intel processors cause they invested in the Touch Bar years ago. It's a silly post hoc fallacy that has nothing to do with this editorial.
    Instead of putting R&D towards making the Touch Bar fit in the chassis, they could have spent the time fitting better hardware. It's directly related. The Touch Bar is a waste. It adds to Apple's cost, which adds to the consumer's cost. Nothing about that is asinine, only your attempts to defend his comment.
    You can’t accelerate an AMD chip with CUDA (you can with OpenCL).  Just because someone can doesn’t mean you have to do the same.  Sure, it can run Premiere, but you first got the alternative on your platform, and second it’s totaly idiotic to drop and redoing all the work because some software utilizes a different architecture.  That’s why I think those “benchmarks” are meaningless.

    And it has nothing to do with the Touch Bar as well.

    https://www.quora.com/Why-exactly-does-Apple-use-AMD-graphic-cards-instead-of-NVIDIA
    edited July 2018
  • Reply 151 of 190
    DuhSesameDuhSesame Posts: 399member
    Rayz2016 said:
    Oh, and the PC laptop only has a 4K screen and the battery lasts 4 hours.  
    I like the fact that I can run my Mac on the battery for several hours, but I might be willing to give up some of that time if doing so resulted in my work being done significantly faster. In fact, if we accept the results posted above at face value, I wouldn't NEED as much battery time because the improved operating speed would cut hours off the time required to complete a project! :)

    Unfortunately, increased speed usually results in increased noise as well, because the machine runs hotter and requires more fan cooling. I really appreciate how quietly this generation runs and wouldn't want to give that up.
    Remember when iPhones still using PowerVR for their GPU?  It can’t even compete with Snapdragon in this term, but still performs well because their API surely makes a difference.
    edited July 2018
  • Reply 152 of 190
    DuhSesameDuhSesame Posts: 399member
    MacPro said:
    I so well remember having to hold classes to teach people how to use a Mac's mouse back in the day.  My poor training staff had to take a lot of flack.  At least half of most classes at our Apple Store training sessions could not get it, they claimed no ability to coordinate their hand movement with what they wanted to do on screen.  Many argued typing was faster.  Many became frustrated and angry claiming it was ridiculous and was just a gimmick from Apple.
    If the Touch Bar becomes as ubiquitous and useful as a mouse I will very gladly eat my words. It would make me happy to be wrong.

    Despite the validity of your example, the trainees were actually right about one thing: keyboard commands are faster. In my professional circles, the Ninjas are those who know all the keyboard shortcuts that allow them to fly through sessions without having to reach for the mouse.
    Have no intention to challenge something that’s 40 years old, but I think the Touch Bar means more of an extensive, not replacement.  I don’t think bringing “shortcuts” for a typical applications will help in any means, but can be very handy if doing more supportive tasks.
    edited July 2018
  • Reply 153 of 190
    ElCapitanElCapitan Posts: 170member
    Soli said:
    I am surprised that no one has mentioned the biggest problem with the TouchBar. It is unusable for someone who is visually impaired. I have a friend that has used the MacIntosh since the first one in 1984. He uses all of the accessibility options for a visually impaired person. He cannot see or feel the different keys on the TouchBar. This is the first computer that Apple has made that he cannot use at all. He actually bought one and had to return it when he couldn't use it. He is a touch typist and had problems when they changed the spacing on the keys before the TouchBar, but nothing like the ones he had with the TouchBar. He uses the esc key to read to him what he has selected on the screen. He can't find the esc key. Since he can't feel it, he doesn't know when he is on it. His vision is bad enough that the minimum size he can see on the screen is expanded 20 times. So imagine a TouchBar that you can't see or feel and that moves what is on it, depending on what application you are in.

    i am very disappointed in Apple, since in the past they were always the best for visually impaired people. In this case they obviously never even thought about the effect on this group of people at all. Just so you know, I prefer to use MacIntosh computers. I was employed at Apple for 12 years as a software engineer. 

     Blackbird
    1) Based on your comments Apple are bunch of insensitive pricks for making the iPhone and iPad, too, since you don't consider any of the Accessibility options they've added to  their touch-based OSes for the visually impaired.

    2) I guess all the effort Apple is spearheading with the USB-iF for adding universal Braille support is just a bunch of bullshit. Or… you're the one that's making shit up.


    3) I guess you also haven't considered that most Macs being sold come with the standard 'fn' keys and that you can use any number of other keyboards with the few Macs that do come with the Touch Bar. But why would an obvious troll actually put any thought into a comment?
    He wasn't trolling, but has some legitimate concern. 

    Come to think about it, you're the one constantly trolling these threads by attacking anyone who's got real concerns with the direction Apple is taking their hardware products. 

    Also, what Apple may or may not be doing/developing for a future product is completely irrelevant for the use case of a current product.
    It is not available for that user till it has been released, and maybe even not then, as the user may have to purchase another product to use the feature. 
    edited July 2018
  • Reply 154 of 190
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 1,647member
    Rayz2016 said:
    k2kw said:

    It sounded like a good idea to solve two problems.   But, it just didn't work in practice.

    Time to move on.   Nothing to see here folks!
    And that is why we are getting Marzipan.  Apple has realiz4d that supporting two main operating systems (besides tvOS and watchOS) is too much work and need to unify them.
    You have no idea what Marzipan is. 

    🤦🏾‍♂️
    I'm happily looking forward to the next 5 years when I expect the introduction of A series laptops running a macOS that looks and feels more and more like iOS.
  • Reply 155 of 190
    DuhSesameDuhSesame Posts: 399member
    Just a reminder, here are some review of two famously known 8th-gen core laptops:

    https://www.notebookcheck.net/Gigabyte-Aero-15X-v8-i7-8750H-GTX-1070-Max-Q-Full-HD-Laptop-Review.296594.0.html
    https://www.notebookcheck.net/Razer-Blade-15-2018-Laptop-Preview.305426.0.html

    "Strange: Although the Aero 15X displays less consistent clock speeds, it delivers higher CPU performance than the ROG Zephyrus M during long test runs. While the Core i7-8750H in the Asus GM501 throttles from 3.9 to 3.3 GHz after a short load, leading to a performance loss of approximately 10%, the frequency of the Aero 15X generally varies between 2.6 and 3.9 GHz with an average of 3.6 GHz. The different turbo behavior of these Coffee Lake notebooks can be seen very nicely in our Cinebench chart."
    Internal temperatures were very high as well, although the Blade 15’s managed to keep them far below critical levels. During our stress test (FurMark & Prime95 simultaneously) the CPU throttled down to just 1,700 MHz and reached a maximum of 89 °C (~192 ° F; no throttling with Gaming mode selected). The GPU ran at a reduced clock speed of just 1,025 MHz and reached a slightly lower maximum of 83 °C (~181 °F).

    Like what I've expected, you have to have a really thick (even thicker than the Unibody ones) in order to keep the performance constant.  8th-gen cores are basically power hogs.
  • Reply 156 of 190

    Side note: if you want to see just how magical Apple’s haptic feedback really is, shut down your iPhone 8 or 8+, as I did a couple days ago, such that you’ll need to use the power button to turn it back on.  And then walk away for a while until you forget you left it in the shut down state.  When you come back to it, pick it up and press the Home button to wake it and sign in; you’ll positively panic thinking your Home button is broken.  You’ll press it harder, wondering why it’s not clicking, until it dawns on you that the unit is shut down and it’s not actually a real button.  Spooky! 
    Better yet. Leave your phone on, and put your hand under the front of your T-shirt. Such that the your shirt rests between your thumb and the iPhone's home button. Give it a press. It doesn't budge, it doesn't do anything, even with the phone on. Because it requires not only pressure but some sort of skin-like material to be in contact with it. Which is interesting, because it makes it impossible to press the home button through your pocket. My guess is that that's probably a good thing.
  • Reply 157 of 190
    AI_liasAI_lias Posts: 272member
    I write this without having owned a laptop with the TouchBar. I bought my MacBook Pro specifically without it, because it was less expensive. I would have liked it if Apple ate the cost, to make their computers more competitive, that's one. A benefit is putting software controls on the TouchBar when the screen is displaying something else, such as a video, or something full screen, or live presentation. It can definitely have some good uses, but: Apple should have decoupled TouchBar from both TouchID and from the 15" model. You should have the choice of 15" MacBook Pro without it, or with TouchID only. That would have been courageous and ingenious. The other possible thing: implement it not instead of, but in addition to the other keys it replaced. People do not use it by touch anyway, so might as well put it above all other keys. Or, implement it not for the entire row, leave the escape physical key. In my opinion, AI got it backwards. It's an interesting idea implemented poorly. Yet another thing that was brought up above: they did this partly to avoid a touchscreen claiming people do not want that, yet sell you the iPad pro with the keyboard, which is a worse option than a laptop with touchscreen. Conclusion: Apple should have experimented not on live professional users, and on their bread-and-butter pro machine, the 15", but on a separate model 15" people could choose from, so people can vote with their wallets. If they would have their testing and design process based on real-life usage, these would not be problems. Hopefully their recent waking up to this, and using real pros in designing their products will produce something better. It they're smart, they would keep evolving it, not just leave it like that.
    edited July 2018 mike54cgWerks
  • Reply 158 of 190
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,545member
    ElCapitan said:
    Soli said:
    I am surprised that no one has mentioned the biggest problem with the TouchBar. It is unusable for someone who is visually impaired. I have a friend that has used the MacIntosh since the first one in 1984. He uses all of the accessibility options for a visually impaired person. He cannot see or feel the different keys on the TouchBar. This is the first computer that Apple has made that he cannot use at all. He actually bought one and had to return it when he couldn't use it. He is a touch typist and had problems when they changed the spacing on the keys before the TouchBar, but nothing like the ones he had with the TouchBar. He uses the esc key to read to him what he has selected on the screen. He can't find the esc key. Since he can't feel it, he doesn't know when he is on it. His vision is bad enough that the minimum size he can see on the screen is expanded 20 times. So imagine a TouchBar that you can't see or feel and that moves what is on it, depending on what application you are in.

    i am very disappointed in Apple, since in the past they were always the best for visually impaired people. In this case they obviously never even thought about the effect on this group of people at all. Just so you know, I prefer to use MacIntosh computers. I was employed at Apple for 12 years as a software engineer. 

     Blackbird
    1) Based on your comments Apple are bunch of insensitive pricks for making the iPhone and iPad, too, since you don't consider any of the Accessibility options they've added to  their touch-based OSes for the visually impaired.

    2) I guess all the effort Apple is spearheading with the USB-iF for adding universal Braille support is just a bunch of bullshit. Or… you're the one that's making shit up.


    3) I guess you also haven't considered that most Macs being sold come with the standard 'fn' keys and that you can use any number of other keyboards with the few Macs that do come with the Touch Bar. But why would an obvious troll actually put any thought into a comment?
    He wasn't trolling, but has some legitimate concern. 

    Come to think about it, you're the one constantly trolling these threads by attacking anyone who's got real concerns with the direction Apple is taking their hardware products. 

    Also, what Apple may or may not be doing/developing for a future product is completely irrelevant for the use case of a current product.
    It is not available for that user till it has been released, and maybe even not then, as the user may have to purchase another product to use the feature. 
    It’s not a legitimate concern because Apple has addressed it across multiple vectors, as Apple alwsys does. The fact that you and him ignore these obvious facts means that you two are both anti-Apple trolls, especially you after being informed that Apple has all the same accessibility options for Touch Bar that they do for all iOS-based devices on macOS. But, hey, go ahead and pooh-pooh for creating the iPhone or a PC with with GUI and mouse despite these device being the best choices for the visually impaired.
    edited July 2018
  • Reply 159 of 190
    asciiascii Posts: 5,941member
    As others have mentioned, the media keys are the things I most use on my Touch Bar and they were on the old keyboard anyway.

    But one other application I would like to mention that works very well is games. Because games often have lots of custom keys (for different abilities/powers etc), and each game is different, and unlike a pro app that you might use every day, you play a game for a few weeks and then put it down. Plus, game icons often look fun on the touch bar because they are little pictures of lightning or swords or such. So an all round good fit.
  • Reply 160 of 190
    dewmedewme Posts: 1,936member
    I give Apple a lot of credit for trying to make the row of function/shortcut keys somewhat useful. Other than the limited defacto standard of F1 being a common way to invoke help on Windows the function keys are very limited because they are by-design dynamic and usually context aware. Unfortunately, the context specific function/shortcut assigned to each function key requires operator training - for every application that uses them. This kind of sucks and this suckage isn't Apple's fault, it's an inherent limitation of computer keyboard design that is likely a result of ancient keyboard DNA it inherited from VT100 and CPM ancestors. At least there's no Gold key on the Mac keyboard. 

    Since the days of DOS many people have tried to overcome the limitations of the function keys to transform them from being a heads-down control to a heads-up control. Some DOS programs would put a row of function key definitions on the bottom of the computer's screen so the app user knew what function key did what with each change in context. The on screen definition would dynamically change much like a menu. When users learned the series of function key presses to invoke specific commands or operations they no longer even looked at the bottom of the screen, they just pounded out the function key sequences. This model is effectively a hybrid because the keys themselves are still hardware switches but the function of the key is readily apparent in a heads-up way. This combination hardware switch plus on-screen function definition/name model is used very effectively on NCR's Dynakey POS terminals because it supports the heads-up interaction model required for POS operator tasks. 

    Apple could fix part of the problem by using hardware switches with individual built-in displays. If every hardware function key had its own display the function name could change dynamically right on the hardware key. But this would still be a heads-down display. From a operator efficiency and tactile standpoint the old DOS application model of putting the function key definitions/names on the bottom of the display would still work better at the expense of some on-screen real estate. To provide analog functionality the keyboard could be equipped with a scroll wheel on one side of the keyboard oriented the same way you see on mice (vertical orientation), preferably one like the higher quality Logitech mice and not the horizontal wheel on some Logitech keyboards. Another option for analog is to invoke a function key to activate an on-screen slider that is slaved to the current mouse/trackpad gestures and deactivated via the Escape key.   

    The bottom line is that all current keyboard designs are deeply flawed when it comes to making effective and efficient use of dynamic function/shortcut keys in a heads-up operational mode. If you're willing to settle for a heads-down control model then the sky is the limit in terms of how to implement a useful design. I'd bet that the current use of function keys on all  existing keyboards, outside of very specific applications that require a learning curve and familiarization period (like F5 to compile), or a keyboard overlay (the ultimate in heads-down keyboard puke fest), is very very low. I suspect the current low usage of function keys is what inspired Apple to do the Touch Bar. Like I said, I don't use the function keys hardly at all so the Touch Bar wouldn't make a difference to me. 

    Except for ... the Escape key.

    The Escape key is a special case. The fact that it happens to be on the same row as the function keys makes its inclusion in the Touch Bar unfortunate. In fact, the Escape key should be treated as a special key and perhaps even be elevated  in status and prominence to double wide treatment like the Return key, even if doing so limits the number of top row function keys to ten (10). I'm totally in favor of promoting the the Escape key to double wide status. That would be a big deal for me while the Touch Bar is still a little deal thing for me.
    mike54cgWerks
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