These things evolve. I know it. But I'll wait a bit longer for a thicker MBP that can keep a high-end chip cool and a better keyboard that I don't need to replace.
If you intend on keeping your mbp for a few years, then you can put a $2 silicone cover over the keyboard, it is fitted to the keys, is very thin and in my opinion give the keys a nice feel as for me they are a bit too slippery. After 5 years my early 2013 keyboard is still like brand new.
MacBook Pro party at the beach! Tomorrow after work, who's down?
While that was a funny comment, I think it's fair to say the scissor mechanism was more reliable. Several people had to go back three times because of dust in their keyboard? I never heard stories like these with the old keyboard. Also, don't recall Apple having a program to fix those old keyboards and three class action lawsuits about them. I figure keyboard redesigns should be more relabel, not less so. But look: thinner, and thinner!!
Sure, scissors mechanism are bullet-proof. Who the hell needs anything other than that?
Very much enjoyed reading the iFixit article. If Ive and Co. are not planning to once and for all make Mac notebook keyboards IP67-ready, they need to be. Tiny particles of dust or even sand should not bring down any Mac keyboards. Such hardware needs to be ready for the real world. Not to mention, it's bad PR the this is a possibility, IMO.
Loving my trusty MBA.
IP67 would require an Industrial or medical grade keyboard, and would not be currently possible on a laptop without significant weight and size compromises.
The essence is that there wouldn't be enough buyers even if it was produced.
I'm curious how that could be achieved? Tiny haptic actuators for each key that will make the user think that travel has been performed, kind of like how the trackpad (which is solid state, but I still don't think would prevent water or very minute dust ingress) makes you think there's been a tap? Can that even be done since registering a tap is different from registering travel?
He have no idea what he's saying. Trying to achieve IP67 with air vent and moving fans......
I don't know if the Thinkpad is IP67, but it's designed to handle at least a large glass of wine. I presume it has moving fans.
You guys are destroying your own site's credibility by obsessing about the keyboard. You really need to let it go for now and wait for some actual evidence to come out of the lawsuits instead of quoting iFixit's goofball tests that they don't use for any other brand of laptop except Apple.
MacBook Pro party at the beach! Tomorrow after work, who's down?
While that was a funny comment, I think it's fair to say the scissor mechanism was more reliable. Several people had to go back three times because of dust in their keyboard? I never heard stories like these with the old keyboard. Also, don't recall Apple having a program to fix those old keyboards and three class action lawsuits about them. I figure keyboard redesigns should be more relabel, not less so. But look: thinner, and thinner!!
Sure, scissors mechanism are bullet-proof. Who the hell needs anything other than that?
The scissors mechanism wasn’t bulletproof by any means. Take it from someone (me!) who managed the team that made the repairs at a higher ed institution. We had a lot of keyboard replacements - some due to abuse, some due to wear and tear.
Very much enjoyed reading the iFixit article. If Ive and Co. are not planning to once and for all make Mac notebook keyboards IP67-ready, they need to be. Tiny particles of dust or even sand should not bring down any Mac keyboards. Such hardware needs to be ready for the real world. Not to mention, it's bad PR the this is a possibility, IMO.
Loving my trusty MBA.
IP67 would require an Industrial or medical grade keyboard, and would not be currently possible on a laptop without significant weight and size compromises.
The essence is that there wouldn't be enough buyers even if it was produced.
I'm curious how that could be achieved? Tiny haptic actuators for each key that will make the user think that travel has been performed, kind of like how the trackpad (which is solid state, but I still don't think would prevent water or very minute dust ingress) makes you think there's been a tap? Can that even be done since registering a tap is different from registering travel?
He have no idea what he's saying. Trying to achieve IP67 with air vent and moving fans......
I don't know if the Thinkpad is IP67, but it's designed to handle at least a large glass of wine. I presume it has moving fans.
You guys are destroying your own site's credibility by obsessing about the keyboard. You really need to let it go for now and wait for some actual evidence to come out of the lawsuits instead of quoting iFixit's goofball tests that they don't use for any other brand of laptop except Apple.
We are doing nothing of the sort. Feel free to skip articles you don’t want to read.
Very much enjoyed reading the iFixit article. If Ive and Co. are not planning to once and for all make Mac notebook keyboards IP67-ready, they need to be. Tiny particles of dust or even sand should not bring down any Mac keyboards. Such hardware needs to be ready for the real world. Not to mention, it's bad PR the this is a possibility, IMO.
Loving my trusty MBA.
IP67 would require an Industrial or medical grade keyboard, and would not be currently possible on a laptop without significant weight and size compromises.
The essence is that there wouldn't be enough buyers even if it was produced.
Not sure if it's IP67, but there was a £99 ($128) chromebook on Amazon Primeday that you could pour water directly onto the keyboard, shake it off and it was fine. The Asus C202 iirc.
well for such an expensive machine, with cutting edge design, by one of the world's greatest companies.
I'm happy to buy this laptop and risk the keyboard shitting itself and the thermal throttling and performance restrictions, dongles and clanky keyboard so that Apple exec's can receive their individual multiple million dollars bonuses.
Said nobody ever.
You guys are destroying your own site's credibility by obsessing about the keyboard. You really need to let it go for now and wait for some actual evidence to come out of the lawsuits instead of quoting iFixit's goofball tests that they don't use for any other brand of laptop except Apple.
It does seem like AI is flogging this issue a bit too much - notice the air of certainty in the title, as if real world usage has already proven the membrane to be a failure.
Yet, all we have is the absurdly extreme testing that iFixit has done. That entire iFixit article is reminiscent of the snarky tone of Casey Johnston's articles. May be the iFixit team has an axe to grind, as well.
Just to be clear, this is not to condone any lapses in Apple's product design, but this is being blown up way too much, IMO. How about the tech media doing similar tests on some competing laptops, just to balance things out?
You guys are destroying your own site's credibility by obsessing about the keyboard. You really need to let it go for now and wait for some actual evidence to come out of the lawsuits instead of quoting iFixit's goofball tests that they don't use for any other brand of laptop except Apple.
We are doing nothing of the sort. Feel free to skip articles you don’t want to read.
I wouldn’t be so sure. Even if one skips the articles, these headlines still plaster the AI home page. iFixIt always seems to have an axe to grind against Apple since their business model is selling parts and repairs to products that are increasingly difficult to repair as is norm in tech, so parroting their axe grinding doesn’t exactly build favor IMO. This keyboard outrage just seems like contrived nonsense to me. There’s no data to suggest it’s worth worrying about. Even your own guessed-data supports that conclusion...so why all the coverage? I won’t say it.
Very much enjoyed reading the iFixit article. If Ive and Co. are not planning to once and for all make Mac notebook keyboards IP67-ready, they need to be. Tiny particles of dust or even sand should not bring down any Mac keyboards. Such hardware needs to be ready for the real world. Not to mention, it's bad PR the this is a possibility, IMO.
Loving my trusty MBA.
IP67 would require an Industrial or medical grade keyboard, and would not be currently possible on a laptop without significant weight and size compromises.
The essence is that there wouldn't be enough buyers even if it was produced.
I'm curious how that could be achieved? Tiny haptic actuators for each key that will make the user think that travel has been performed, kind of like how the trackpad (which is solid state, but I still don't think would prevent water or very minute dust ingress) makes you think there's been a tap? Can that even be done since registering a tap is different from registering travel?
He have no idea what he's saying. Trying to achieve IP67 with air vent and moving fans......
I don't know if the Thinkpad is IP67, but it's designed to handle at least a large glass of wine. I presume it has moving fans.
Dustproof and liquid immersion to 1 meter; that isn't close to reality.
Your Thinkpad appears to have somewhere in the neighborhood of either an IP 52, IP 53 or IP 54, or at best, an IP 62, IP 63 or IP 64.
Apple's MBP is likely IP 52, IP 53, or IP 54 as they do not claim that it is dustproof.
The problem is not just that the keyboard is fragile and prone to breaking, but not being user replaceable makes it prohibitively expensive to repair.
I try to imagine Steve Jobs holding a relatively new $4,000 laptop that no longer functions because of some donut crumbs and the phrase "This is crap -- Fix It!" comes to mind. (Or, perhaps like a Bugatti, the MBP was designed for only those who seek ultimate performance and money is no object? If that is the case, then deal with it!)
But, it doesn't need to be that way: Lenovo did fix it -- long ago: even with keyboards that are cheaply, quickly and easily replaced and that have far better feel, they are essentially bullet proof:
You guys are destroying your own site's credibility by obsessing about the keyboard. You really need to let it go for now and wait for some actual evidence to come out of the lawsuits instead of quoting iFixit's goofball tests that they don't use for any other brand of laptop except Apple.
We are doing nothing of the sort. Feel free to skip articles you don’t want to read.
I wouldn’t be so sure. Even if one skips the articles, these headlines still plaster the AI home page. iFixIt always seems to have an axe to grind against Apple since their business model is selling parts and repairs to products that are increasingly difficult to repair as is norm in tech, so parroting their axe grinding doesn’t exactly build favor IMO. This keyboard outrage just seems like contrived nonsense to me. There’s no data to suggest it’s worth worrying about. Even your own guessed-data supports that conclusion...so why all the coverage? I won’t say it.
Your statement about "Plaster" is ridiculous. We published the numbers in April. We then talked about it when the keyboard repair program was launched in June. The MacBook Pro came out a week ago, and of our 120 headlines since a week ago Wednesday, we've had six headlines about it including the podcast, and hundreds of queries.
It's almost like its a hot-button issue about a new product with evolving information or something!
You're welcome to not like the data, of course, and have your own opinions on it. And, regarding the actual data, our data set is interpreted conservatively to eliminate false positives. In reality, the failure numbers are likely higher.
If this was a $100 repair, it wouldn't be as big a deal, but it isn't. A Dell XPS 13 keyboard repair is $75. A Lenovo X1 Carbon keyboard repair is $90.
And, I'm telling you right now -- we'll be revisiting the numbers one way or another in six months.
You guys are destroying your own site's credibility by obsessing about the keyboard. You really need to let it go for now and wait for some actual evidence to come out of the lawsuits instead of quoting iFixit's goofball tests that they don't use for any other brand of laptop except Apple.
We are doing nothing of the sort. Feel free to skip articles you don’t want to read.
I wouldn’t be so sure. Even if one skips the articles, these headlines still plaster the AI home page. iFixIt always seems to have an axe to grind against Apple since their business model is selling parts and repairs to products that are increasingly difficult to repair as is norm in tech, so parroting their axe grinding doesn’t exactly build favor IMO. This keyboard outrage just seems like contrived nonsense to me. There’s no data to suggest it’s worth worrying about. Even your own guessed-data supports that conclusion...so why all the coverage? I won’t say it.
Your statement about "Plaster" is ridiculous. We published the numbers in April. We then talked about it when the keyboard repair program was launched in June. The MacBook Pro came out a week ago, and of our 120 headlines since a week ago Wednesday, we've had six headlines about it including the podcast, and hundreds of queries.
It's almost like its a hot-button issue about a new product with evolving information or something!
You're welcome to not like the data, of course, and have your own opinions on it. And, regarding the actual data, our data set is interpreted conservatively to eliminate false positives. In reality, the failure numbers are likely higher.
If this was a $100 repair, it wouldn't be as big a deal, but it isn't. A Dell XPS 13 keyboard repair is $75. A Lenovo X1 Carbon keyboard repair is $90.
And, I'm telling you right now -- we'll be revisiting the numbers one way or another in six months.
I'm a consumer who is planning to drop $3,000ish for one of these in the near future. It is a legitimate issue, and I appreciate you covering it.
Mike Wuerthele said: You're welcome to not like the data, of course, and have your own opinions on it. And, regarding the actual data, our data set is interpreted conservatively to eliminate false positives. In reality, the failure numbers are likely higher.
Your data set doesn't supply a breakdown of the actual types of repairs being made or even a general percentage for minor vs. major repairs. Also, the use of the term "failure" is misleading since repairs for the keyboard could be as simple as a compressed air fix or something else that doesn't actually require a parts replacement.
Comments
These things evolve. I know it.
But I'll wait a bit longer for a thicker MBP that can keep a high-end chip cool and a better keyboard that I don't need to replace.
http://www.dsmt.com/resources/ip-rating-chart/
Dustproof and liquid immersion to 1 meter; that isn't close to reality.
Your Thinkpad appears to have somewhere in the neighborhood of either an IP 52, IP 53 or IP 54, or at best, an IP 62, IP 63 or IP 64.
Apple's MBP is likely IP 52, IP 53, or IP 54 as they do not claim that it is dustproof.
Yet, all we have is the absurdly extreme testing that iFixit has done. That entire iFixit article is reminiscent of the snarky tone of Casey Johnston's articles. May be the iFixit team has an axe to grind, as well.
Just to be clear, this is not to condone any lapses in Apple's product design, but this is being blown up way too much, IMO. How about the tech media doing similar tests on some competing laptops, just to balance things out?
(Or, perhaps like a Bugatti, the MBP was designed for only those who seek ultimate performance and money is no object? If that is the case, then deal with it!)
It's almost like its a hot-button issue about a new product with evolving information or something!
You're welcome to not like the data, of course, and have your own opinions on it. And, regarding the actual data, our data set is interpreted conservatively to eliminate false positives. In reality, the failure numbers are likely higher.
And, I'm telling you right now -- we'll be revisiting the numbers one way or another in six months.