Would like to see Apple get involved in massive energy storage for these intermittent sources of energy.
Why Apple? Do you really feel like becoming hostage of trust? May I suggest study of some hgostory what it leads to? Apple is not your buddy to pat you on your shoulder. Just likje any business it is run for commercial resons and it wil take you hostage whenever it gets chance. They are not good social buddies to give you anything for free or fix the world. Competition is the key. So say why not to have energy companies to run this?
Regardless of what anyone thinks at this particular moment in political time, non-fossil fuel sources of energy -- or if fossil fuels, natural gas-based sources as a bridge -- are here to say. Forward-thinking corporations like Apple are at the forefront of driving that change, and that is not a function of whether who comes and goes in DC. Companies make such decisions based on the economics of such investments over a 15-20 year horizon.
You overestimate planning. No they do not do this for 15-20 years. The market is way too volatile and noboduy invests in one thing for that long. Companies, just like any investor, diversify and see what happens. Political it was when everybody were forced by regulations to do "new clean energy" while what should have happend promote diverification rather than punish like European Union dumb way where one country is punished for use of coal and mine and the one punishing is the most influential in EU and it is the main consumer of oil and coal and polutes the most. Current DC deregulates dumb things brought by predecessors.
Would like to see Apple get involved in massive energy storage for these intermittent sources of energy.
Why Apple? Do you really feel like becoming hostage of trust? May I suggest study of some hgostory what it leads to? Apple is not your buddy to pat you on your shoulder. Just likje any business it is run for commercial resons and it wil take you hostage whenever it gets chance. They are not good social buddies to give you anything for free or fix the world. Competition is the key. So say why not to have energy companies to run this?
How would I be a hostage if, for example, Apple installed large battery storage at their solar facilities, to provide energy to a datacenter 24/7? Apple has the finances and possibly the inclination, to power much of their business off the common grid.
It's funny that you chide me for not knowing history and then ask why not have energy companies run this. Do you believe energy companies are more your buddy than Apple?
It would be more commendable if Apple or some other company to come up with a solar panel that didn’t take up so much land when we are trying to go green when actually we are blackening out so much land that used to be green in the first place
It would be more commendable if Apple or some other company to come up with a solar panel that didn’t take up so much land when we are trying to go green when actually we are blackening out so much land that used to be green in the first place
I don’t understand why you would think this. There are many many different organizations that have done the math, and the land use is negligibly small. You could do the math yourself. Solar power produces approximately 200 W/m^2. The USA uses about 0.5 TW of power or so peak. Double it to 1 TW. Land use = ((1e12)/200)/(1000^2) = 5000 sq km. A square of 71 km per side, or 43 mile to a side. So about the size of a major metropolitan and suburban area, for the entire USA.
That’s just a back of the envelope thing with a totally unrealistic assumption of putting all the panels in one place. In reality, they’ll be distributed in <1 square mile grid scale plants, on top of roofs, etc. It would be no more, no different from the fossil fuel infrastructure today in terms of land use really.
The one impediment to solar is production capacity, regulations, and permits. Wind, solar, and electricity storage will be the cheapest form of electricity generation in a few years. It’ll be built out. Battery storage is in a virtuous cycle with electric vehicles, and storage will be built it as well. It’s going be the classic “slowly, slowly, then all at once” type of market penetration. Like when the iPhone was introduced, and Moto, Nokia, Palm, Sony, LG, Ericsson thought they had time, thought they were secure in their position. But within 5 years, the old dumb phone companies were gone. It will take 10, 20 years for energy companies because of 20 to 30 cycle times, but their time is coming. Not going to be pretty in the meantime though.
Wind, solar, and electricity storage will be the cheapest form of electricity generation in a few years.
Did we solve the energy storage crisis while I wasn’t looking? Also, I prefer my electricity to be available 24 hours a day.
This.
Any discussion of ‘cost’ of intermittent sources of energy without a discussion of the cost of storage is, plainly and simply, a flat-out lie. Because, without storage, we have to also simultaenously invest in the baseline (i.e., 24/7) stuff.
Regardless of what anyone thinks at this particular moment in political time, non-fossil fuel sources of energy -- or if fossil fuels, natural gas-based sources as a bridge -- are here to stay
Apple has plenty of money. Why aren't they financing fusion reactors? Once some company figures out how to build a working fusion reactor, all those other energy alternatives won't matter. I still have hope that it can be done within the next decade or so if they can throw enough money into it. Man, if Apple could be part of something like that. I know, I'm just dreaming but it would be a planet-changer.
Apple has plenty of money. Why aren't they financing fusion reactors? Once some company figures out how to build a working fusion reactor, all those other energy alternatives won't matter. I still have hope that it can be done within the next decade or so if they can throw enough money into it. Man, if Apple could be part of something like that. I know, I'm just dreaming but it would be a planet-changer.
My dream for Apple being a planet-changer? Create a modern-day Bell Labs.
Not at night. Don’t talk to me about even transcontinental DC transmission (much less AC) until we have room temperature superconductors. Then all these flights-of-fancy “green” (lol) systems can be more viable.
So about the size of a major metropolitan and suburban area, for the entire USA.
And it would have to be built in Arizona, New Mexico, or western Texas, because you’re not going to get significant amounts of power otherwise.
In terms of land use, maybe. In terms of location, there would be virtually no large-scale power production anywhere but the southwest.
Hey, I just wanted to counter the weird notion that solar covers a lot grass, trees and forests. If roofs were covered with panels, hardly any land is really needed, but that’ll take some time for cheaper installation and permitting to take hold. These aren’t technical issues. They are regulatory ones. If brand new houses put in panels at the time of construction, the costs per Watt for installation will be driven down by half or so. Every house and building should have panels. Every house and building should have storage.
Solar is advantageous at higher latitudes because it can be used for power during summer, when the days are longer and more AC is required. In the winter, gas heating will continue to be needed. Even there, I think there will be renewable energy sources to provide heating when needed, the need for gas will gradually be driven down.
Large grid scale solar installations are still needed. Large grid scale storage is still needed. Long HVDC connections are needed. It’s not going to look like the power plant and peaker plant energy infrastructure today. I think renewable energy sources will provide power 24 hours a day.
Battery storage is in a virtuous cycle with electric vehicles, and storage will be built it as well.
What does that even mean? How are you going to store large amounts of power for long periods of time without constantly swapping hardware.
By virtuous cycle, I mean an economic one that drives the cost of Lithium battery storage to cheap enough $/kWHr such that every household will have multiple batteries, in addition to grid storage batteries. Electric vehicles and battery based grid storage will be using the same battery technology. The success of one market enables the success of the other market and vice versa. More EVs mean more production capacity for batteries, making batteries cheaper for grid storage. More grid storage uses more mass produced batteries, making EVs cheaper. More EVs needing higher power charging means more high performance grid storage is needed, something that battery storage will be very good at.
A virtuous cycle of mass production and benefits. A home battery will be in every home just like a refrigerator.
Only if someone else is going to pay for it. I’m not swapping out a multi-thousand dollar Li-ion battery every few years.
I think renewable energy sources will provide power 24 hours a day.
Only if you support the return to the days when countries could annex land without the UN sticking their illegal noses where they don’t belong. And even then, you can’t make the wind blow 24/7. What I don’t understand is why geothermal hasn’t been the go-to for the renewable crowd. No matter where you are, no matter what time of day, if you dig down far enough you’ll get power. What’s not to like about that?
Why buy a power company with the sunk legacy costs that are driving them down ? No reason to do that, Avoid the legacy costs of Coal, Nuclear, huge distribution and generation systems - Build one with a New Technology that does not have these legacy costs. Very few Maintenance Technicians to keep the systems (panels, etc) operating efficiently. One has to look at the total cost of Generation, not just the cost of a panel vs the equivalent amount of energy generated via another method.
Continue the forward thinking Apple, et. al.
And how do you keep the power on during the night with that? Until the problem of storage is solved we will continue to rely on burning fossil fuels for the foreseeable future. Storage of that unreliable, renewable but intermittent power source is the real holy grail here and we’re not even close. That’s why even hardcore environmentalists are taking another look at nuclear. My eldest son designs power plants and was involved in designing a liquid sodium, solar generation project that stores liquid sodium heated during the day and used to generate power at night so I kind of think he knows what he is talking about. As for some who claim the coal and oil industries are deliberately trying to stop this technology just realize that the company who solves this problem will become rich beyond avarice.
Uh, the first storage solutions are in place and operating. https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/1/16723186/elon-musk-battery-launched-south-australia Wind/solar power is stored in large banks of batteries designed and installed by one of Elon Musk's companies. He also has small versions for individual homeowners. These aren't experiments, they are commercial products available now.
Would like to see Apple get involved in massive energy storage for these intermittent sources of energy.
Why Apple? Do you really feel like becoming hostage of trust? May I suggest study of some hgostory what it leads to? Apple is not your buddy to pat you on your shoulder. Just likje any business it is run for commercial resons and it wil take you hostage whenever it gets chance. They are not good social buddies to give you anything for free or fix the world. Competition is the key. So say why not to have energy companies to run this?
I'll give you a reason why 'the energy companies' are not necessarily your best buddy. In Maine you can put up solar and sell the excess back into the grid. Makes sense right? In Florida thanks to (fill in your own reason any Governor does something to help a company) you can't sell excess energy back to the grid ... in Florida no less!
What I don’t understand is why geothermal hasn’t been the go-to for the renewable crowd. No matter where you are, no matter what time of day, if you dig down far enough you’ll get power. What’s not to like about that?
Why buy a power company with the sunk legacy costs that are driving them down ? No reason to do that, Avoid the legacy costs of Coal, Nuclear, huge distribution and generation systems - Build one with a New Technology that does not have these legacy costs. Very few Maintenance Technicians to keep the systems (panels, etc) operating efficiently. One has to look at the total cost of Generation, not just the cost of a panel vs the equivalent amount of energy generated via another method.
Continue the forward thinking Apple, et. al.
And how do you keep the power on during the night with that? Until the problem of storage is solved we will continue to rely on burning fossil fuels for the foreseeable future. Storage of that unreliable, renewable but intermittent power source is the real holy grail here and we’re not even close. That’s why even hardcore environmentalists are taking another look at nuclear. My eldest son designs power plants and was involved in designing a liquid sodium, solar generation project that stores liquid sodium heated during the day and used to generate power at night so I kind of think he knows what he is talking about. As for some who claim the coal and oil industries are deliberately trying to stop this technology just realize that the company who solves this problem will become rich beyond avarice.
Uh, the first storage solutions are in place and operating. https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/1/16723186/elon-musk-battery-launched-south-australia Wind/solar power is stored in large banks of batteries designed and installed by one of Elon Musk's companies. He also has small versions for individual homeowners. These aren't experiments, they are commercial products available now.
What is the delivered cost per kWh? Without subsidies?
Comments
It's funny that you chide me for not knowing history and then ask why not have energy companies run this. Do you believe energy companies are more your buddy than Apple?
That’s just a back of the envelope thing with a totally unrealistic assumption of putting all the panels in one place. In reality, they’ll be distributed in <1 square mile grid scale plants, on top of roofs, etc. It would be no more, no different from the fossil fuel infrastructure today in terms of land use really.
The one impediment to solar is production capacity, regulations, and permits. Wind, solar, and electricity storage will be the cheapest form of electricity generation in a few years. It’ll be built out. Battery storage is in a virtuous cycle with electric vehicles, and storage will be built it as well. It’s going be the classic “slowly, slowly, then all at once” type of market penetration. Like when the iPhone was introduced, and Moto, Nokia, Palm, Sony, LG, Ericsson thought they had time, thought they were secure in their position. But within 5 years, the old dumb phone companies were gone. It will take 10, 20 years for energy companies because of 20 to 30 cycle times, but their time is coming. Not going to be pretty in the meantime though.
In terms of land use, maybe. In terms of location, there would be virtually no large-scale power production anywhere but the southwest.
Latitude.
Did we solve the energy storage crisis while I wasn’t looking? Also, I prefer my electricity to be available 24 hours a day.
What does that even mean? How are you going to store large amounts of power for long periods of time without constantly swapping hardware?
Any discussion of ‘cost’ of intermittent sources of energy without a discussion of the cost of storage is, plainly and simply, a flat-out lie. Because, without storage, we have to also simultaenously invest in the baseline (i.e., 24/7) stuff.
Hey, I just wanted to counter the weird notion that solar covers a lot grass, trees and forests. If roofs were covered with panels, hardly any land is really needed, but that’ll take some time for cheaper installation and permitting to take hold. These aren’t technical issues. They are regulatory ones. If brand new houses put in panels at the time of construction, the costs per Watt for installation will be driven down by half or so. Every house and building should have panels. Every house and building should have storage.
Solar is advantageous at higher latitudes because it can be used for power during summer, when the days are longer and more AC is required. In the winter, gas heating will continue to be needed. Even there, I think there will be renewable energy sources to provide heating when needed, the need for gas will gradually be driven down.
Large grid scale solar installations are still needed. Large grid scale storage is still needed. Long HVDC connections are needed. It’s not going to look like the power plant and peaker plant energy infrastructure today. I think renewable energy sources will provide power 24 hours a day.
By virtuous cycle, I mean an economic one that drives the cost of Lithium battery storage to cheap enough $/kWHr such that every household will have multiple batteries, in addition to grid storage batteries. Electric vehicles and battery based grid storage will be using the same battery technology. The success of one market enables the success of the other market and vice versa. More EVs mean more production capacity for batteries, making batteries cheaper for grid storage. More grid storage uses more mass produced batteries, making EVs cheaper. More EVs needing higher power charging means more high performance grid storage is needed, something that battery storage will be very good at.
A virtuous cycle of mass production and benefits. A home battery will be in every home just like a refrigerator.
Only if someone else is going to pay for it. I’m not swapping out a multi-thousand dollar Li-ion battery every few years.
Only if you support the return to the days when countries could annex land without the UN sticking their illegal noses where they don’t belong. And even then, you can’t make the wind blow 24/7. What I don’t understand is why geothermal hasn’t been the go-to for the renewable crowd. No matter where you are, no matter what time of day, if you dig down far enough you’ll get power. What’s not to like about that?
https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/1/16723186/elon-musk-battery-launched-south-australia
Wind/solar power is stored in large banks of batteries designed and installed by one of Elon Musk's companies. He also has small versions for individual homeowners. These aren't experiments, they are commercial products available now.
What is the delivered cost per kWh? Without subsidies?