Would like to see Apple get involved in massive energy storage for these intermittent sources of energy.
Why Apple? Do you really feel like becoming hostage of trust? May I suggest study of some hgostory what it leads to? Apple is not your buddy to pat you on your shoulder. Just likje any business it is run for commercial resons and it wil take you hostage whenever it gets chance. They are not good social buddies to give you anything for free or fix the world. Competition is the key. So say why not to have energy companies to run this?
I'll give you a reason why 'the energy companies' are not necessarily your best buddy. In Maine you can put up solar and sell the excess back into the grid. Makes sense right? In Florida thanks to (fill in your own reason any Governor does something to help a company) you can't sell excess energy back to the grid ... in Florida no less!
I don't know about FL per se,but in a lot of states you can't sell back to the grid because the utilities have way exceeded their quotas for what they were required to buy according to RPS standards, or the state has run out of funds for net metering.
Why buy a power company with the sunk legacy costs that are driving them down ? No reason to do that, Avoid the legacy costs of Coal, Nuclear, huge distribution and generation systems - Build one with a New Technology that does not have these legacy costs. Very few Maintenance Technicians to keep the systems (panels, etc) operating efficiently. One has to look at the total cost of Generation, not just the cost of a panel vs the equivalent amount of energy generated via another method.
Continue the forward thinking Apple, et. al.
And how do you keep the power on during the night with that? Until the problem of storage is solved we will continue to rely on burning fossil fuels for the foreseeable future. Storage of that unreliable, renewable but intermittent power source is the real holy grail here and we’re not even close. That’s why even hardcore environmentalists are taking another look at nuclear. My eldest son designs power plants and was involved in designing a liquid sodium, solar generation project that stores liquid sodium heated during the day and used to generate power at night so I kind of think he knows what he is talking about. As for some who claim the coal and oil industries are deliberately trying to stop this technology just realize that the company who solves this problem will become rich beyond avarice.
Uh, the first storage solutions are in place and operating. https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/1/16723186/elon-musk-battery-launched-south-australia Wind/solar power is stored in large banks of batteries designed and installed by one of Elon Musk's companies. He also has small versions for individual homeowners. These aren't experiments, they are commercial products available now.
What is the delivered cost per kWh? Without subsidies?
No idea but Australia must have thought it was worth the cost.
Would like to see Apple get involved in massive energy storage for these intermittent sources of energy.
Renewables can easily be stored for use. Physical storage such as turning the Hoover Dam into a large energy storage project is but one way. You can also turn it to heat, etc. Then there is chemical storage as in batteries.
VW's Audi division has an interesting project where excess electricity from renewable sources is turned into gas that can be put into the natural gas distribution network.
Would like to see Apple get involved in massive energy storage for these intermittent sources of energy.
Why Apple? Do you really feel like becoming hostage of trust? May I suggest study of some hgostory what it leads to? Apple is not your buddy to pat you on your shoulder. Just likje any business it is run for commercial resons and it wil take you hostage whenever it gets chance. They are not good social buddies to give you anything for free or fix the world. Competition is the key. So say why not to have energy companies to run this?
I'll give you a reason why 'the energy companies' are not necessarily your best buddy. In Maine you can put up solar and sell the excess back into the grid. Makes sense right? In Florida thanks to (fill in your own reason any Governor does something to help a company) you can't sell excess energy back to the grid ... in Florida no less!
I don't know about FL per se,but in a lot of states you can't sell back to the grid because the utilities have way exceeded their quotas for what they were required to buy according to RPS standards, or the state has run out of funds for net metering.
In Texas, it is about the same. No net metering, but the utilities will credit you up to how much you use on an annual basis. This generally drives residential panel owners to have smaller systems that are sized for how much you use only. For west facing panel systems, that is an awesome deal for the utility.
Inverter or metering technologies are available such that power from solar panels will not be fed back into the grid, so the house will draw from the panels first, than draw from the grid when more is needed. Combined with a battery, the house can be 24 hr supplied by solar, but if you have a party or are doing something power intensive, it can still draw from the grid. For obvious reasons, I don’t think utilities will allow this whatsoever as it could be their doom.
Oh, of course it does... I didn’t even think about that. “It’s a bolstered, two meter wide shaft a few thousand feet down; surely that’s not a concern!” Less famous last words.
Wow, based on the headline, I was thinking of solar and wind power somewhere in the mid-Atlantic ocean, like off the coast of the Bahamas, not ACC states.
Pretty misleading headline! Agreed, mid-Atlantic is in the middle of the ocean as you say. American have some strange terms for things.
Why buy a power company with the sunk legacy costs that are driving them down ? No reason to do that, Avoid the legacy costs of Coal, Nuclear, huge distribution and generation systems - Build one with a New Technology that does not have these legacy costs. Very few Maintenance Technicians to keep the systems (panels, etc) operating efficiently. One has to look at the total cost of Generation, not just the cost of a panel vs the equivalent amount of energy generated via another method.
Continue the forward thinking Apple, et. al.
And how do you keep the power on during the night with that? Until the problem of storage is solved we will continue to rely on burning fossil fuels for the foreseeable future. Storage of that unreliable, renewable but intermittent power source is the real holy grail here and we’re not even close. That’s why even hardcore environmentalists are taking another look at nuclear. My eldest son designs power plants and was involved in designing a liquid sodium, solar generation project that stores liquid sodium heated during the day and used to generate power at night so I kind of think he knows what he is talking about. As for some who claim the coal and oil industries are deliberately trying to stop this technology just realize that the company who solves this problem will become rich beyond avarice.
Uh, the first storage solutions are in place and operating. https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/1/16723186/elon-musk-battery-launched-south-australia Wind/solar power is stored in large banks of batteries designed and installed by one of Elon Musk's companies. He also has small versions for individual homeowners. These aren't experiments, they are commercial products available now.
What is the delivered cost per kWh? Without subsidies?
No idea but Australia must have thought it was worth the cost.
Lots of governments think so. It’s other poeple’s money.
Pretty misleading headline! Agreed, mid-Atlantic is in the middle of the ocean as you say. American have some strange terms for things.
Boot. Lorry (which my iPad wants to autocorrect to ‘Larry’). Chips (for fries). Crisps (for chips). Biscuits (for cookies). “Table the motion” having the opposite meaning across the pond. Fag (for cigarette). And it might just be an Irish thing, but ‘crap’ is a swear word over there, whereas fuck (and accent derivations, like ‘fook’) is used much more widely…
I do still like the joke about the seasons, though. “America, do tell, why do you call autumn ‘fall’?” “IT CALL FALL BECAUSE LEAF FALL DOWN” “Ah, well, that settles that.”
Would like to see Apple get involved in massive energy storage for these intermittent sources of energy.
We do not need nasty, unsafe and expensive Nuclear Power.
Nuclear is not nasty, not unsafe, and not expensive. And clearly, you seem to know nothing at all about thorium. Educate yourself — the information is easily available.
Would like to see Apple get involved in massive energy storage for these intermittent sources of energy.
Why Apple? Do you really feel like becoming hostage of trust? May I suggest study of some hgostory what it leads to? Apple is not your buddy to pat you on your shoulder. Just likje any business it is run for commercial resons and it wil take you hostage whenever it gets chance. They are not good social buddies to give you anything for free or fix the world. Competition is the key. So say why not to have energy companies to run this?
I'll give you a reason why 'the energy companies' are not necessarily your best buddy. In Maine you can put up solar and sell the excess back into the grid. Makes sense right? In Florida thanks to (fill in your own reason any Governor does something to help a company) you can't sell excess energy back to the grid ... in Florida no less!
I don't know about FL per se,but in a lot of states you can't sell back to the grid because the utilities have way exceeded their quotas for what they were required to buy according to RPS standards, or the state has run out of funds for net metering.
In Texas, it is about the same. No net metering, but the utilities will credit you up to how much you use on an annual basis. This generally drives residential panel owners to have smaller systems that are sized for how much you use only. For west facing panel systems, that is an awesome deal for the utility.
Inverter or metering technologies are available such that power from solar panels will not be fed back into the grid, so the house will draw from the panels first, than draw from the grid when more is needed. Combined with a battery, the house can be 24 hr supplied by solar, but if you have a party or are doing something power intensive, it can still draw from the grid. For obvious reasons, I don’t think utilities will allow this whatsoever as it could be their doom.
Utilities are able to provide this service since they invest in (often dirty) baseload power. No free lunch there.
Uh, the first storage solutions are in place and operating. https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/1/16723186/elon-musk-battery-launched-south-australia Wind/solar power is stored in large banks of batteries designed and installed by one of Elon Musk's companies. He also has small versions for individual homeowners. These aren't experiments, they are commercial products available now.
What is the delivered cost per kWh? Without subsidies?
The delivered cost to end users? Or to the utility? That’s complicated, and the EIA doesn’t even attempt it. It’ll take another year maybe.
They list examples of recent power purchase agreements containing combined solar+storage:
A $120/MWh PPA in Hawaii is as competitive fossil fuels in Hawaii, and would be better in the long run as battery and installation costs go down. A $36/MWh PPA in Colorado is ultra competitive to natural gas. So, solar+storage is competitive in many many places today, and prices on solar and storage are still set to go down.
The paper shows how much storage is installed in the USA as of 2017: Energy grid wide, this is not a lot of storage as it is only approaching a GW of capacity. The USA uses about 500 GW peak. So definitely in the very early adopter phase of the market penetration S curve. The 100 MW level additions per year will be 1 to 10 GW level additions in a few years. In the mass market adoption phase in a few decades, it will be in the 10 to 50 GW additions per year. Those prices above will go down further by a factor of 2 or 3, where solar+storage or wind+storage PPAs could be in the $10 to $20 per MWh range.
The PJM region (where Apple plus other companies are adding 290 MW of PV solar) is shown here in blue:
This plot lot shows that lithium-ion has won the battery/storage chemistry race: Electric vehicles have settled on lithium-ion, so this is a forgone conclusion. I can’t see how any other battery or storage technology can overcome the mass production advantages of lithium-ion, and there will be an order of magnitude more EVs on the road in a decade or so. It’s a virtuous cycle. I do think solar thermal (sodium) will have a significant chunk in the southwest though.
This is what the battery storage is used for:
PJM basically only uses battery storage for frequency regulation. As you can see, battery storage does a lot of stuff to stabilize the grid. In the future, all this stuff is going to be computer controlled, with very low latency, and it is going to be granular down to the panel level and wind turbine blade angle of attack level. EV owners and home battery storage owners can all participate too.
Companies that make gas peaker plants parts and equipment need to switch now to some other business, hopefully renewables parts and equipment, as the costs for battery storage and their capability is like Palm looking at the iPhone introduction in 2007. It’s change or die time. Now, they are good at the regulatory capture thing, so maybe there is time, but the writing is on the wall, just based on pure economics of costs per MW and capability, I definitely don’t want to be in their shoes.
Comments
I don't know about FL per se, but in a lot of states you can't sell back to the grid because the utilities have way exceeded their quotas for what they were required to buy according to RPS standards, or the state has run out of funds for net metering.
Physical storage such as turning the Hoover Dam into a large energy storage project is but one way. You can also turn it to heat, etc.
Then there is chemical storage as in batteries.
VW's Audi division has an interesting project where excess electricity from renewable sources is turned into gas that can be put into the natural gas distribution network.
http://www.cedec.com/files/default/8-2014-05-27-cedec-gas-day-reinhard-otten-audi-ag.pdf
It is up and running.
Natural GAs can be burned or used in Fuel Cells.
https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2016/04/f30/fcto_gas_cleanup_pl03-phillips.pdf
We do not need nasty, unsafe and expensive Nuclear Power.
Inverter or metering technologies are available such that power from solar panels will not be fed back into the grid, so the house will draw from the panels first, than draw from the grid when more is needed. Combined with a battery, the house can be 24 hr supplied by solar, but if you have a party or are doing something power intensive, it can still draw from the grid. For obvious reasons, I don’t think utilities will allow this whatsoever as it could be their doom.
I do still like the joke about the seasons, though. “America, do tell, why do you call autumn ‘fall’?” “IT CALL FALL BECAUSE LEAF FALL DOWN” “Ah, well, that settles that.”
Utilities are able to provide this service since they invest in (often dirty) baseload power. No free lunch there.
The EIA has a trend report here:
https://www.eia.gov/analysis/studies/electricity/batterystorage/pdf/battery_storage.pdf
In the document, they state the following:
They list examples of recent power purchase agreements containing combined solar+storage:
A $120/MWh PPA in Hawaii is as competitive fossil fuels in Hawaii, and would be better in the long run as battery and installation costs go down. A $36/MWh PPA in Colorado is ultra competitive to natural gas. So, solar+storage is competitive in many many places today, and prices on solar and storage are still set to go down.
The paper shows how much storage is installed in the USA as of 2017:
Energy grid wide, this is not a lot of storage as it is only approaching a GW of capacity. The USA uses about 500 GW peak. So definitely in the very early adopter phase of the market penetration S curve. The 100 MW level additions per year will be 1 to 10 GW level additions in a few years. In the mass market adoption phase in a few decades, it will be in the 10 to 50 GW additions per year. Those prices above will go down further by a factor of 2 or 3, where solar+storage or wind+storage PPAs could be in the $10 to $20 per MWh range.
The PJM region (where Apple plus other companies are adding 290 MW of PV solar) is shown here in blue:
This plot lot shows that lithium-ion has won the battery/storage chemistry race:
Electric vehicles have settled on lithium-ion, so this is a forgone conclusion. I can’t see how any other battery or storage technology can overcome the mass production advantages of lithium-ion, and there will be an order of magnitude more EVs on the road in a decade or so. It’s a virtuous cycle. I do think solar thermal (sodium) will have a significant chunk in the southwest though.
This is what the battery storage is used for:
PJM basically only uses battery storage for frequency regulation. As you can see, battery storage does a lot of stuff to stabilize the grid. In the future, all this stuff is going to be computer controlled, with very low latency, and it is going to be granular down to the panel level and wind turbine blade angle of attack level. EV owners and home battery storage owners can all participate too.
Companies that make gas peaker plants parts and equipment need to switch now to some other business, hopefully renewables parts and equipment, as the costs for battery storage and their capability is like Palm looking at the iPhone introduction in 2007. It’s change or die time. Now, they are good at the regulatory capture thing, so maybe there is time, but the writing is on the wall, just based on pure economics of costs per MW and capability, I definitely don’t want to be in their shoes.