Android collects nearly 10 times more user data than Apple's iOS

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  • Reply 41 of 49
    claire1claire1 Posts: 510unconfirmed, member
    Only thing that surprises me is the "10x more" title. I figured it would be at least 100x more. Although Chrome collecting 50x more data is closer to reality.
    edited August 2018
    watto_cobra
     1Like 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 42 of 49
    tedp88tedp88 Posts: 20member
    Both companies "collect" data but where it resides and the amounts shared to the big data core vary greatly.
    tldr: Apple believes the intelligence is on the device. Google believes the intelligence is on the network.

    *****

    If I've been paying attention, a fundamental difference is Apple believes / keeps all the data collection contained to the device. There is no large scale mining & linking collected data from all your other devices and usage. This is why Siri is so behind. You can have different "usage profiles" for each device. If 90% of your use is on your iPhone vs 10% iPad, ever notice how much more 'intelligent' your iPhone is? My iPad doesn't tell me it'll be 15 minutes to work but my iPhone does.

    Google believes all data should reside / emanate from a core network and served to all your devices from there. That analysis engine graphic tells the story. Google "selling" your raw data would be suicide but they link all their sources for a single user profile.

    Remember the article a few weeks back about the blogger who requested his Apple & Google profile data dump? The Apple one was much, much smaller.

    IMO, on a scale of highest to lowest with respect for the average consumer (out of the box use) goes; Apple > Microsoft(?) > Google > Facebook.

    Where you sit on that scale is personal choice.
    lostkiwi
     1Like 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 43 of 49
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,679member
    tedp88 said:
    Both companies "collect" data but where it resides and the amounts shared to the big data core vary greatly.
    tldr: Apple believes the intelligence is on the device. Google believes the intelligence is on the network.

    *****

    If I've been paying attention, a fundamental difference is Apple believes / keeps all the data collection contained to the device. There is no large scale mining & linking collected data from all your other devices and usage. This is why Siri is so behind. You can have different "usage profiles" for each device. If 90% of your use is on your iPhone vs 10% iPad, ever notice how much more 'intelligent' your iPhone is? My iPad doesn't tell me it'll be 15 minutes to work but my iPhone does.

    Google believes all data should reside / emanate from a core network and served to all your devices from there. That analysis engine graphic tells the story. Google "selling" your raw data would be suicide but they link all their sources for a single user profile.

    Remember the article a few weeks back about the blogger who requested his Apple & Google profile data dump? The Apple one was much, much smaller.

    IMO, on a scale of highest to lowest with respect for the average consumer (out of the box use) goes; Apple > Microsoft(?) > Google > Facebook.

    Where you sit on that scale is personal choice.
    Excellent points sir. In all fairness Google seems to be coming around to some of that same point of view, doing more of the data processing on device than they once did. They're not entirely clueless, understanding that users are becoming more sensitive to data uploading that doesn't immediately benefit them.
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  • Reply 44 of 49
    blah64blah64 Posts: 993member
    gatorguy said:
    blah64 said:
    gatorguy said:
    The elephant in the rooms asks you if Apple still notes your location "when people think their settings are preventing tracking."? Granted it may be for different reasons in part, both of them needing to use location to "improve their services and features" with Google having a far larger emphasis on the ad targeting aspect it also improves. 

    According to Apple "disable Location Services at any time. To do so, open Settings on your iPhone, tap Privacy, tap Location Services, and either turn off the global Location Services switch or turn off the individual location switch of each location-aware app or feature by setting it to “Never”.  While technically correct since it's limited to "Location Services" it is a bit deceptive IMO in that users may erroneously think that their location is no longer being logged once the global switch is set to off. That was the initial complaint about Google noting location even if also technically accurate. Toggling off the obvious setting didn't entirely turn off ALL location logging and some folks properly found that to be deceptive.

    Not right for one, and IMO it's not right, should mean not right for the other. What do you think @ericthehalfbee @MacPro ;
    You mentioned this before, but either you're saying something that isn't true, or I'm completely misunderstanding what you're saying. 
    users may erroneously think that their location is no longer being logged once the global switch is set to off.
    When you go into Settings -> Privacy and turn of Location Services on an iPhone, that does indeed disable ALL location tracking, including sending data to Apple.

    The only exception is when you call 9-1-1, because all mobile devices are required by law to pass location.  Also, if you enable FindMyPhone's Lost Mode location data will be made available, but that is because you explicitly turned on location reporting for your device, just remotely.

    Apple clearly states in their Location Services & Privacy "To use features such as these, you must enable Location Services on your iPhone and give your permission to each app or website before it can use your location data".  The "and" is italicized in their own copy.  Have you never actually looked at the Settings -> Privacy -> Location Services section on an iPhone? 

    This is completely different from google/android's system, where you flip the master switch to No and your location is still being tracked and sent back to the mother ship because it's an either/or design.  Why are you trying to make it sound like they're the same?


    EDIT: As it's now about two hours later I'll guess those were tougher questions than you originally thought? 
    LOLOL.  At first I thought you were joking because it sounded so ridiculous, but are you being serious?  Two hours?  If I don't respond in two days maybe you could start to wonder if that was the case.

    I have a very busy life.  I generally look at this site once a day if I have time, and only bother to sign in when both something compels me and I have time to write something meaningful.  I don't use my mobile for browsing around on the internet at large, and I don't want/get notifications or emails if someone replies to one of my comments for replies (here or anywhere else).  I did eventually see your reply late last night, had a quick laugh, but no time to respond until now.
    Well you are the very first person willing to discuss it. Thanks Blah.

    Yes I've looked at an iPhone's privacy settings.

    Does turning off the global "Location Services" toggle on your iPhone also automatically disable "Significant Locations" (formerly Frequent Locations and used in Apple Maps for instance) found under "System Services"? Does it also stop location logging when you use your device's Safari browser? And after "Location Services" have been disabled, your preferences for revealing your location noted, and using your Safari browser will Apple no longer try to figure out where you are even using geo-location services which can be accurate to as much as city level if not more, in order to deliver "more relevant search results and services"? (where have we heard that phrase before...)

    Those would be some answers others would also be interested in.  So far everyone else has avoided it. If the answers are all "Yes" then no idea why so many are avoiding saying so.

    Turning off Location Services does indeed disable "Frequent Locations", and other location-based system services (like Location-Based Suggestions, Popular Near Me, etc.).  If you go into Locations Services and read the About Location Services & Privacy link it's spelled out pretty clearly.  I'm actually puzzled why you're questioning this, which is why I asked if you'd actually looked through the Locations Services section.  Even with your ridiculous biases and transparent debate tactics, you're usually a pretty thorough reader, and you usually have your facts in order.

    Quote: "By enabling Location Services, location-based system services such as these will also be enabled: Traffic... Popular Near Me..., etc."

    These services are NOT enabled when the master Location Services switch is off.  Which is exactly what any normal person would expect.

    Also to your question about Maps and Safari, note that the Apple Maps and Safari apps are treated just like every other app that asks for permissions to access system resources, like the camera, microphone, location, contacts, etc.  You can disable their access to resources/sensors, just like any other app, and when the master switch is turned off they no longer have access to your location.

    iOS Location Services use GPS, Bluetooth and crowd-sourced WiFi and cell tower locations, but all of these come under the general Locations Services terms.

    I don't think even your deflection methods will work here, although you could try to blow it off as an "I asked it as a question, not a fact", but you've brought this topic up in multiple threads recently.  It feels like a mea culpa is in order on your part.
    williamlondon
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  • Reply 45 of 49
    blah64blah64 Posts: 993member
    tedp88 said:
    Both companies "collect" data but where it resides and the amounts shared to the big data core vary greatly.
    tldr: Apple believes the intelligence is on the device. Google believes the intelligence is on the network.

    *****

    If I've been paying attention, a fundamental difference is Apple believes / keeps all the data collection contained to the device. There is no large scale mining & linking collected data from all your other devices and usage. This is why Siri is so behind. You can have different "usage profiles" for each device. If 90% of your use is on your iPhone vs 10% iPad, ever notice how much more 'intelligent' your iPhone is? My iPad doesn't tell me it'll be 15 minutes to work but my iPhone does.

    Google believes all data should reside / emanate from a core network and served to all your devices from there. That analysis engine graphic tells the story. Google "selling" your raw data would be suicide but they link all their sources for a single user profile.

    Remember the article a few weeks back about the blogger who requested his Apple & Google profile data dump? The Apple one was much, much smaller.

    IMO, on a scale of highest to lowest with respect for the average consumer (out of the box use) goes; Apple > Microsoft(?) > Google > Facebook.

    Where you sit on that scale is personal choice.
    You make some good points here, but don't make the mistake that Apple is actually able to keep all their data collection on the device today.  What we can say is that Apple's aspirational goals are to keep as much information as possible on the local devices, where google needs that data for their fundamental business model of harvesting user information and building behavioral profiles. 

    You may even find that over time google experiments with keeping more (limited) types of data on the user devices, and they'll probably play that up in the media, but the fact is, they need to consume lots of user data, and it needs to stay fairly current over time, in order to feed their behavioral profile engines.  This is how they make money, after all.

    Eventually, I believe it will be possible to provide a great deal of the "AI" benefits locally on mobile devices and/or through user-managed shared data stores.  But we're nowhere close to that yet.
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  • Reply 46 of 49
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,679member
    blah64 said:
    gatorguy said:
    blah64 said:
    gatorguy said:
    The elephant in the rooms asks you if Apple still notes your location "when people think their settings are preventing tracking."? Granted it may be for different reasons in part, both of them needing to use location to "improve their services and features" with Google having a far larger emphasis on the ad targeting aspect it also improves. 

    According to Apple "disable Location Services at any time. To do so, open Settings on your iPhone, tap Privacy, tap Location Services, and either turn off the global Location Services switch or turn off the individual location switch of each location-aware app or feature by setting it to “Never”.  While technically correct since it's limited to "Location Services" it is a bit deceptive IMO in that users may erroneously think that their location is no longer being logged once the global switch is set to off. That was the initial complaint about Google noting location even if also technically accurate. Toggling off the obvious setting didn't entirely turn off ALL location logging and some folks properly found that to be deceptive.

    Not right for one, and IMO it's not right, should mean not right for the other. What do you think @ericthehalfbee @MacPro ;
    You mentioned this before, but either you're saying something that isn't true, or I'm completely misunderstanding what you're saying. 
    users may erroneously think that their location is no longer being logged once the global switch is set to off.
    When you go into Settings -> Privacy and turn of Location Services on an iPhone, that does indeed disable ALL location tracking, including sending data to Apple.

    The only exception is when you call 9-1-1, because all mobile devices are required by law to pass location.  Also, if you enable FindMyPhone's Lost Mode location data will be made available, but that is because you explicitly turned on location reporting for your device, just remotely.

    Apple clearly states in their Location Services & Privacy "To use features such as these, you must enable Location Services on your iPhone and give your permission to each app or website before it can use your location data".  The "and" is italicized in their own copy.  Have you never actually looked at the Settings -> Privacy -> Location Services section on an iPhone? 

    This is completely different from google/android's system, where you flip the master switch to No and your location is still being tracked and sent back to the mother ship because it's an either/or design.  Why are you trying to make it sound like they're the same?


    EDIT: As it's now about two hours later I'll guess those were tougher questions than you originally thought? 
    LOLOL.  At first I thought you were joking because it sounded so ridiculous, but are you being serious?  Two hours?  If I don't respond in two days maybe you could start to wonder if that was the case.

    I have a very busy life.  I generally look at this site once a day if I have time, and only bother to sign in when both something compels me and I have time to write something meaningful.  I don't use my mobile for browsing around on the internet at large, and I don't want/get notifications or emails if someone replies to one of my comments for replies (here or anywhere else).  I did eventually see your reply late last night, had a quick laugh, but no time to respond until now.
    Well you are the very first person willing to discuss it. Thanks Blah.

    Yes I've looked at an iPhone's privacy settings.

    Does turning off the global "Location Services" toggle on your iPhone also automatically disable "Significant Locations" (formerly Frequent Locations and used in Apple Maps for instance) found under "System Services"? Does it also stop location logging when you use your device's Safari browser? And after "Location Services" have been disabled, your preferences for revealing your location noted, and using your Safari browser will Apple no longer try to figure out where you are even using geo-location services which can be accurate to as much as city level if not more, in order to deliver "more relevant search results and services"? (where have we heard that phrase before...)

    Those would be some answers others would also be interested in.  So far everyone else has avoided it. If the answers are all "Yes" then no idea why so many are avoiding saying so.

    Turning off Location Services does indeed disable "Frequent Locations", and other location-based system services (like Location-Based Suggestions, Popular Near Me, etc.).  If you go into Locations Services and read the About Location Services & Privacy link it's spelled out pretty clearly.  I'm actually puzzled why you're questioning this, which is why I asked if you'd actually looked through the Locations Services section.  Even with your ridiculous biases and transparent debate tactics, you're usually a pretty thorough reader, and you usually have your facts in order.

    Quote: "By enabling Location Services, location-based system services such as these will also be enabled: Traffic... Popular Near Me..., etc."

    These services are NOT enabled when the master Location Services switch is off.  Which is exactly what any normal person would expect.

    Also to your question about Maps and Safari, note that the Apple Maps and Safari apps are treated just like every other app that asks for permissions to access system resources, like the camera, microphone, location, contacts, etc.  You can disable their access to resources/sensors, just like any other app, and when the master switch is turned off they no longer have access to your location.

    iOS Location Services use GPS, Bluetooth and crowd-sourced WiFi and cell tower locations, but all of these come under the general Locations Services terms.

    I don't think even your deflection methods will work here, although you could try to blow it off as an "I asked it as a question, not a fact", but you've brought this topic up in multiple threads recently.  It feels like a mea culpa is in order on your part.
    I'm still not sure your answer is accurate and I'll tell you why.

     I asked a pretty basic question about the global location services toggle of Rayz2016 a few days ago, and originally it was a question I had no idea the answer to. He avoided it. I prompted him again after that asking if his avoidance was confirmation that more than one toggle may need to be disabled. He moved on. So I then asked MacPro the same. He also avoided it as did one other regular whose name now escapes me.  At that point I began to think that Apple too used several different toggles to turn it all off, which was the initial complaint against Google, and for obvious reasons.

    So I looked at an iPhone X (my nephews) privacy settings so as to familiarize myself, and then did a search on Apple help pages, iMore and I forget the third site. All seemed in agreement that more than one toggle is required.

    So I then asked one more very knowledgeable member here, Ericthehalfbee.
    He did not dispute my description of how I understood it works with multiple toggles required to truly turn off all location logging. He instead generally confirmed it but saying it didn't matter because it's what you do with the data, not that it was collected. (He has half a point). He reiterated that a few times. 

    You seem to be the only one saying NOT SO. What started out as a simple question has been avoided by so many long-time Apple users that I would be forgiven for thinking there is more to it than it might appear on the surface, and not as simple as a single toggle.  I'll keep looking. Maybe you're right. Maybe not. 

    BTW, Apple themselves state in one of their privacy notices that even with all locations services turned off they'll still try to determine your location via geo-location  (IP alone or in combination with other indicators) in order to deliver more relevant results and services. That was another of the knocks against Google voiced in media articles. 
    muthuk_vanalingammuthuk_vanalingam
     1Like 0Dislikes 1Informative
  • Reply 47 of 49
    blah64blah64 Posts: 993member
    gatorguy said:
    blah64 said:
    gatorguy said:
    blah64 said:
    gatorguy said:
    The elephant in the rooms asks you if Apple still notes your location "when people think their settings are preventing tracking."? Granted it may be for different reasons in part, both of them needing to use location to "improve their services and features" with Google having a far larger emphasis on the ad targeting aspect it also improves. 

    According to Apple "disable Location Services at any time. To do so, open Settings on your iPhone, tap Privacy, tap Location Services, and either turn off the global Location Services switch or turn off the individual location switch of each location-aware app or feature by setting it to “Never”.  While technically correct since it's limited to "Location Services" it is a bit deceptive IMO in that users may erroneously think that their location is no longer being logged once the global switch is set to off. That was the initial complaint about Google noting location even if also technically accurate. Toggling off the obvious setting didn't entirely turn off ALL location logging and some folks properly found that to be deceptive.

    Not right for one, and IMO it's not right, should mean not right for the other. What do you think @ericthehalfbee @MacPro ;
    You mentioned this before, but either you're saying something that isn't true, or I'm completely misunderstanding what you're saying. 
    users may erroneously think that their location is no longer being logged once the global switch is set to off.
    When you go into Settings -> Privacy and turn of Location Services on an iPhone, that does indeed disable ALL location tracking, including sending data to Apple.

    The only exception is when you call 9-1-1, because all mobile devices are required by law to pass location.  Also, if you enable FindMyPhone's Lost Mode location data will be made available, but that is because you explicitly turned on location reporting for your device, just remotely.

    Apple clearly states in their Location Services & Privacy "To use features such as these, you must enable Location Services on your iPhone and give your permission to each app or website before it can use your location data".  The "and" is italicized in their own copy.  Have you never actually looked at the Settings -> Privacy -> Location Services section on an iPhone? 

    This is completely different from google/android's system, where you flip the master switch to No and your location is still being tracked and sent back to the mother ship because it's an either/or design.  Why are you trying to make it sound like they're the same?


    EDIT: As it's now about two hours later I'll guess those were tougher questions than you originally thought? 
    LOLOL.  At first I thought you were joking because it sounded so ridiculous, but are you being serious?  Two hours?  If I don't respond in two days maybe you could start to wonder if that was the case.

    I have a very busy life.  I generally look at this site once a day if I have time, and only bother to sign in when both something compels me and I have time to write something meaningful.  I don't use my mobile for browsing around on the internet at large, and I don't want/get notifications or emails if someone replies to one of my comments for replies (here or anywhere else).  I did eventually see your reply late last night, had a quick laugh, but no time to respond until now.
    Well you are the very first person willing to discuss it. Thanks Blah.

    Yes I've looked at an iPhone's privacy settings.

    Does turning off the global "Location Services" toggle on your iPhone also automatically disable "Significant Locations" (formerly Frequent Locations and used in Apple Maps for instance) found under "System Services"? Does it also stop location logging when you use your device's Safari browser? And after "Location Services" have been disabled, your preferences for revealing your location noted, and using your Safari browser will Apple no longer try to figure out where you are even using geo-location services which can be accurate to as much as city level if not more, in order to deliver "more relevant search results and services"? (where have we heard that phrase before...)

    Those would be some answers others would also be interested in.  So far everyone else has avoided it. If the answers are all "Yes" then no idea why so many are avoiding saying so.

    Turning off Location Services does indeed disable "Frequent Locations", and other location-based system services (like Location-Based Suggestions, Popular Near Me, etc.).  If you go into Locations Services and read the About Location Services & Privacy link it's spelled out pretty clearly.  I'm actually puzzled why you're questioning this, which is why I asked if you'd actually looked through the Locations Services section.  Even with your ridiculous biases and transparent debate tactics, you're usually a pretty thorough reader, and you usually have your facts in order.

    Quote: "By enabling Location Services, location-based system services such as these will also be enabled: Traffic... Popular Near Me..., etc."

    These services are NOT enabled when the master Location Services switch is off.  Which is exactly what any normal person would expect.

    Also to your question about Maps and Safari, note that the Apple Maps and Safari apps are treated just like every other app that asks for permissions to access system resources, like the camera, microphone, location, contacts, etc.  You can disable their access to resources/sensors, just like any other app, and when the master switch is turned off they no longer have access to your location.

    iOS Location Services use GPS, Bluetooth and crowd-sourced WiFi and cell tower locations, but all of these come under the general Locations Services terms.

    I don't think even your deflection methods will work here, although you could try to blow it off as an "I asked it as a question, not a fact", but you've brought this topic up in multiple threads recently.  It feels like a mea culpa is in order on your part.
    I'm still not sure your answer is accurate and I'll tell you why.

     I asked a pretty basic question about the global location services toggle of Rayz2016 a few days ago, and originally it was a question I had no idea the answer to. He avoided it. I prompted him again after that asking if his avoidance was confirmation that more than one toggle may need to be disabled. He moved on. So I then asked MacPro the same. He also avoided it as did one other regular whose name now escapes me.  At that point I began to think that Apple too used several different toggles to turn it all off, which was the initial complaint against Google, and for obvious reasons.

    So I looked at an iPhone X (my nephews) privacy settings so as to familiarize myself, and then did a search on Apple help pages, iMore and I forget the third site. All seemed in agreement that more than one toggle is required.

    So I then asked one more very knowledgeable member here, Ericthehalfbee.
    He did not dispute my description of how I understood it works with multiple toggles required to truly turn off all location logging. He instead generally confirmed it but saying it didn't matter because it's what you do with the data, not that it was collected. (He has half a point). He reiterated that a few times. 

    You seem to be the only one saying NOT SO. What started out as a simple question has been avoided by so many long-time Apple users that I would be forgiven for thinking there is more to it than it might appear on the surface, and not as simple as a single toggle.  I'll keep looking. Maybe you're right. Maybe not. 

    BTW, Apple themselves state in one of their privacy notices that even with all locations services turned off they'll still try to determine your location via geo-location  (IP alone or in combination with other indicators) in order to deliver more relevant results and services. That was another of the knocks against Google voiced in media articles. 
    What I'm reading here is that you're interpreting peoples' lack of response as tacit agreement with your rebuttals, and that's just not a good argument.  Honestly, if you read people's comments, a lot of posters here are tired of engaging with you, so it's not surprising that they don't bother to get down and dirty in these discussions.

    But back to the meat here, I'm telling you exactly what the iOS Location and Privacy text right on an iOS devices says.  Word for word.  You should really go back and read it again, and look at how the settings are organized instead of throwing vague references to stuff that's either wrong or you're mis-remembering.  Frankly, it's not common for you to be lazy in your arguments, but appears to be what's happening here.

    I'm telling you that the settings are all in one place, and there is indeed a "master switch", and that Apple's verbiage on the device itself supports that.  Even the "System Services" functionality is inside that "master switch" section.  If you have some specific information that contradicts that, please give us specific information and/or a URL, because I'm not seeing it.  Same with the geo-location/IP/bluetooth, from what I'm reading on the device itself, when you disable Location Services that data is NOT being gathered except for legally-mandated 9-1-1 calls.
    lostkiwi
     1Like 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 48 of 49
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,679member
    blah64 said:
    gatorguy said:
    blah64 said:
    gatorguy said:
    blah64 said:
    gatorguy said:
    The elephant in the rooms asks you if Apple still notes your location "when people think their settings are preventing tracking."? Granted it may be for different reasons in part, both of them needing to use location to "improve their services and features" with Google having a far larger emphasis on the ad targeting aspect it also improves. 

    According to Apple "disable Location Services at any time. To do so, open Settings on your iPhone, tap Privacy, tap Location Services, and either turn off the global Location Services switch or turn off the individual location switch of each location-aware app or feature by setting it to “Never”.  While technically correct since it's limited to "Location Services" it is a bit deceptive IMO in that users may erroneously think that their location is no longer being logged once the global switch is set to off. That was the initial complaint about Google noting location even if also technically accurate. Toggling off the obvious setting didn't entirely turn off ALL location logging and some folks properly found that to be deceptive.

    Not right for one, and IMO it's not right, should mean not right for the other. What do you think @ericthehalfbee @MacPro ;
    You mentioned this before, but either you're saying something that isn't true, or I'm completely misunderstanding what you're saying. 
    users may erroneously think that their location is no longer being logged once the global switch is set to off.
    When you go into Settings -> Privacy and turn of Location Services on an iPhone, that does indeed disable ALL location tracking, including sending data to Apple.

    The only exception is when you call 9-1-1, because all mobile devices are required by law to pass location.  Also, if you enable FindMyPhone's Lost Mode location data will be made available, but that is because you explicitly turned on location reporting for your device, just remotely.

    Apple clearly states in their Location Services & Privacy "To use features such as these, you must enable Location Services on your iPhone and give your permission to each app or website before it can use your location data".  The "and" is italicized in their own copy.  Have you never actually looked at the Settings -> Privacy -> Location Services section on an iPhone? 

    This is completely different from google/android's system, where you flip the master switch to No and your location is still being tracked and sent back to the mother ship because it's an either/or design.  Why are you trying to make it sound like they're the same?


    EDIT: As it's now about two hours later I'll guess those were tougher questions than you originally thought? 
    LOLOL.  At first I thought you were joking because it sounded so ridiculous, but are you being serious?  Two hours?  If I don't respond in two days maybe you could start to wonder if that was the case.

    I have a very busy life.  I generally look at this site once a day if I have time, and only bother to sign in when both something compels me and I have time to write something meaningful.  I don't use my mobile for browsing around on the internet at large, and I don't want/get notifications or emails if someone replies to one of my comments for replies (here or anywhere else).  I did eventually see your reply late last night, had a quick laugh, but no time to respond until now.
    Well you are the very first person willing to discuss it. Thanks Blah.

    Yes I've looked at an iPhone's privacy settings.

    Does turning off the global "Location Services" toggle on your iPhone also automatically disable "Significant Locations" (formerly Frequent Locations and used in Apple Maps for instance) found under "System Services"? Does it also stop location logging when you use your device's Safari browser? And after "Location Services" have been disabled, your preferences for revealing your location noted, and using your Safari browser will Apple no longer try to figure out where you are even using geo-location services which can be accurate to as much as city level if not more, in order to deliver "more relevant search results and services"? (where have we heard that phrase before...)

    Those would be some answers others would also be interested in.  So far everyone else has avoided it. If the answers are all "Yes" then no idea why so many are avoiding saying so.

    Turning off Location Services does indeed disable "Frequent Locations", and other location-based system services (like Location-Based Suggestions, Popular Near Me, etc.).  If you go into Locations Services and read the About Location Services & Privacy link it's spelled out pretty clearly.  I'm actually puzzled why you're questioning this, which is why I asked if you'd actually looked through the Locations Services section.  Even with your ridiculous biases and transparent debate tactics, you're usually a pretty thorough reader, and you usually have your facts in order.

    Quote: "By enabling Location Services, location-based system services such as these will also be enabled: Traffic... Popular Near Me..., etc."

    These services are NOT enabled when the master Location Services switch is off.  Which is exactly what any normal person would expect.

    Also to your question about Maps and Safari, note that the Apple Maps and Safari apps are treated just like every other app that asks for permissions to access system resources, like the camera, microphone, location, contacts, etc.  You can disable their access to resources/sensors, just like any other app, and when the master switch is turned off they no longer have access to your location.

    iOS Location Services use GPS, Bluetooth and crowd-sourced WiFi and cell tower locations, but all of these come under the general Locations Services terms.

    I don't think even your deflection methods will work here, although you could try to blow it off as an "I asked it as a question, not a fact", but you've brought this topic up in multiple threads recently.  It feels like a mea culpa is in order on your part.
    I'm still not sure your answer is accurate and I'll tell you why.

     I asked a pretty basic question about the global location services toggle of Rayz2016 a few days ago, and originally it was a question I had no idea the answer to. He avoided it. I prompted him again after that asking if his avoidance was confirmation that more than one toggle may need to be disabled. He moved on. So I then asked MacPro the same. He also avoided it as did one other regular whose name now escapes me.  At that point I began to think that Apple too used several different toggles to turn it all off, which was the initial complaint against Google, and for obvious reasons.

    So I looked at an iPhone X (my nephews) privacy settings so as to familiarize myself, and then did a search on Apple help pages, iMore and I forget the third site. All seemed in agreement that more than one toggle is required.

    So I then asked one more very knowledgeable member here, Ericthehalfbee.
    He did not dispute my description of how I understood it works with multiple toggles required to truly turn off all location logging. He instead generally confirmed it but saying it didn't matter because it's what you do with the data, not that it was collected. (He has half a point). He reiterated that a few times. 

    You seem to be the only one saying NOT SO. What started out as a simple question has been avoided by so many long-time Apple users that I would be forgiven for thinking there is more to it than it might appear on the surface, and not as simple as a single toggle.  I'll keep looking. Maybe you're right. Maybe not. 

    BTW, Apple themselves state in one of their privacy notices that even with all locations services turned off they'll still try to determine your location via geo-location  (IP alone or in combination with other indicators) in order to deliver more relevant results and services. That was another of the knocks against Google voiced in media articles. 
    What I'm reading here is that you're interpreting peoples' lack of response as tacit agreement with your rebuttals, and that's just not a good argument.  Honestly, if you read people's comments, a lot of posters here are tired of engaging with you, so it's not surprising that they don't bother to get down and dirty in these discussions.

    But back to the meat here, I'm telling you exactly what the iOS Location and Privacy text right on an iOS devices says.  Word for word.  You should really go back and read it again, and look at how the settings are organized instead of throwing vague references to stuff that's either wrong or you're mis-remembering.  Frankly, it's not common for you to be lazy in your arguments, but appears to be what's happening here.

    I'm telling you that the settings are all in one place, and there is indeed a "master switch", and that Apple's verbiage on the device itself supports that.  Even the "System Services" functionality is inside that "master switch" section.  If you have some specific information that contradicts that, please give us specific information and/or a URL, because I'm not seeing it.  Same with the geo-location/IP/bluetooth, from what I'm reading on the device itself, when you disable Location Services that data is NOT being gathered except for legally-mandated 9-1-1 calls.
    I completely understood what you said the first tiem, so still not entirely on board with your answer. 

    Regarding your last question, this is quoted from Apple's privacy policy:
     "If you turn off Location Services for Location-based Suggestions, your precise location will not be sent to Apple. To deliver relevant search suggestions and news, Apple may use the IP address of your internet connection to approximate your location....

    It may seem straightforward, and perhaps it is, but seemingly not so based on this thread:
    https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/location-services-constantly-on-in-ios-11.2069553/
    edited August 2018
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  • Reply 49 of 49
    blah64blah64 Posts: 993member
    gatorguy said:
    blah64 said:
    gatorguy said:
    blah64 said:
    gatorguy said:
    blah64 said:
    gatorguy said:
    The elephant in the rooms asks you if Apple still notes your location "when people think their settings are preventing tracking."? Granted it may be for different reasons in part, both of them needing to use location to "improve their services and features" with Google having a far larger emphasis on the ad targeting aspect it also improves. 

    According to Apple "disable Location Services at any time. To do so, open Settings on your iPhone, tap Privacy, tap Location Services, and either turn off the global Location Services switch or turn off the individual location switch of each location-aware app or feature by setting it to “Never”.  While technically correct since it's limited to "Location Services" it is a bit deceptive IMO in that users may erroneously think that their location is no longer being logged once the global switch is set to off. That was the initial complaint about Google noting location even if also technically accurate. Toggling off the obvious setting didn't entirely turn off ALL location logging and some folks properly found that to be deceptive.

    Not right for one, and IMO it's not right, should mean not right for the other. What do you think @ericthehalfbee @MacPro ;
    You mentioned this before, but either you're saying something that isn't true, or I'm completely misunderstanding what you're saying. 
    users may erroneously think that their location is no longer being logged once the global switch is set to off.
    When you go into Settings -> Privacy and turn of Location Services on an iPhone, that does indeed disable ALL location tracking, including sending data to Apple.

    The only exception is when you call 9-1-1, because all mobile devices are required by law to pass location.  Also, if you enable FindMyPhone's Lost Mode location data will be made available, but that is because you explicitly turned on location reporting for your device, just remotely.

    Apple clearly states in their Location Services & Privacy "To use features such as these, you must enable Location Services on your iPhone and give your permission to each app or website before it can use your location data".  The "and" is italicized in their own copy.  Have you never actually looked at the Settings -> Privacy -> Location Services section on an iPhone? 

    This is completely different from google/android's system, where you flip the master switch to No and your location is still being tracked and sent back to the mother ship because it's an either/or design.  Why are you trying to make it sound like they're the same?


    EDIT: As it's now about two hours later I'll guess those were tougher questions than you originally thought? 
    LOLOL.  At first I thought you were joking because it sounded so ridiculous, but are you being serious?  Two hours?  If I don't respond in two days maybe you could start to wonder if that was the case.

    I have a very busy life.  I generally look at this site once a day if I have time, and only bother to sign in when both something compels me and I have time to write something meaningful.  I don't use my mobile for browsing around on the internet at large, and I don't want/get notifications or emails if someone replies to one of my comments for replies (here or anywhere else).  I did eventually see your reply late last night, had a quick laugh, but no time to respond until now.
    Well you are the very first person willing to discuss it. Thanks Blah.

    Yes I've looked at an iPhone's privacy settings.

    Does turning off the global "Location Services" toggle on your iPhone also automatically disable "Significant Locations" (formerly Frequent Locations and used in Apple Maps for instance) found under "System Services"? Does it also stop location logging when you use your device's Safari browser? And after "Location Services" have been disabled, your preferences for revealing your location noted, and using your Safari browser will Apple no longer try to figure out where you are even using geo-location services which can be accurate to as much as city level if not more, in order to deliver "more relevant search results and services"? (where have we heard that phrase before...)

    Those would be some answers others would also be interested in.  So far everyone else has avoided it. If the answers are all "Yes" then no idea why so many are avoiding saying so.

    Turning off Location Services does indeed disable "Frequent Locations", and other location-based system services (like Location-Based Suggestions, Popular Near Me, etc.).  If you go into Locations Services and read the About Location Services & Privacy link it's spelled out pretty clearly.  I'm actually puzzled why you're questioning this, which is why I asked if you'd actually looked through the Locations Services section.  Even with your ridiculous biases and transparent debate tactics, you're usually a pretty thorough reader, and you usually have your facts in order.

    Quote: "By enabling Location Services, location-based system services such as these will also be enabled: Traffic... Popular Near Me..., etc."

    These services are NOT enabled when the master Location Services switch is off.  Which is exactly what any normal person would expect.

    Also to your question about Maps and Safari, note that the Apple Maps and Safari apps are treated just like every other app that asks for permissions to access system resources, like the camera, microphone, location, contacts, etc.  You can disable their access to resources/sensors, just like any other app, and when the master switch is turned off they no longer have access to your location.

    iOS Location Services use GPS, Bluetooth and crowd-sourced WiFi and cell tower locations, but all of these come under the general Locations Services terms.

    I don't think even your deflection methods will work here, although you could try to blow it off as an "I asked it as a question, not a fact", but you've brought this topic up in multiple threads recently.  It feels like a mea culpa is in order on your part.
    I'm still not sure your answer is accurate and I'll tell you why.

     I asked a pretty basic question about the global location services toggle of Rayz2016 a few days ago, and originally it was a question I had no idea the answer to. He avoided it. I prompted him again after that asking if his avoidance was confirmation that more than one toggle may need to be disabled. He moved on. So I then asked MacPro the same. He also avoided it as did one other regular whose name now escapes me.  At that point I began to think that Apple too used several different toggles to turn it all off, which was the initial complaint against Google, and for obvious reasons.

    So I looked at an iPhone X (my nephews) privacy settings so as to familiarize myself, and then did a search on Apple help pages, iMore and I forget the third site. All seemed in agreement that more than one toggle is required.

    So I then asked one more very knowledgeable member here, Ericthehalfbee.
    He did not dispute my description of how I understood it works with multiple toggles required to truly turn off all location logging. He instead generally confirmed it but saying it didn't matter because it's what you do with the data, not that it was collected. (He has half a point). He reiterated that a few times. 

    You seem to be the only one saying NOT SO. What started out as a simple question has been avoided by so many long-time Apple users that I would be forgiven for thinking there is more to it than it might appear on the surface, and not as simple as a single toggle.  I'll keep looking. Maybe you're right. Maybe not. 

    BTW, Apple themselves state in one of their privacy notices that even with all locations services turned off they'll still try to determine your location via geo-location  (IP alone or in combination with other indicators) in order to deliver more relevant results and services. That was another of the knocks against Google voiced in media articles. 
    What I'm reading here is that you're interpreting peoples' lack of response as tacit agreement with your rebuttals, and that's just not a good argument.  Honestly, if you read people's comments, a lot of posters here are tired of engaging with you, so it's not surprising that they don't bother to get down and dirty in these discussions.

    But back to the meat here, I'm telling you exactly what the iOS Location and Privacy text right on an iOS devices says.  Word for word.  You should really go back and read it again, and look at how the settings are organized instead of throwing vague references to stuff that's either wrong or you're mis-remembering.  Frankly, it's not common for you to be lazy in your arguments, but appears to be what's happening here.

    I'm telling you that the settings are all in one place, and there is indeed a "master switch", and that Apple's verbiage on the device itself supports that.  Even the "System Services" functionality is inside that "master switch" section.  If you have some specific information that contradicts that, please give us specific information and/or a URL, because I'm not seeing it.  Same with the geo-location/IP/bluetooth, from what I'm reading on the device itself, when you disable Location Services that data is NOT being gathered except for legally-mandated 9-1-1 calls.
    I completely understood what you said the first tiem, so still not entirely on board with your answer. 

    Regarding your last question, this is quoted from Apple's privacy policy:
     "If you turn off Location Services for Location-based Suggestions, your precise location will not be sent to Apple. To deliver relevant search suggestions and news, Apple may use the IP address of your internet connection to approximate your location....

    It may seem straightforward, and perhaps it is, but seemingly not so based on this thread:
    https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/location-services-constantly-on-in-ios-11.2069553/
    I just read through Apple's privacy policy page, at https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/ , and the text you're quoting is not there.  However, I was able to find it on an Apple support page here: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207056 .  This is essentially the same text that is on the iPhone itself within the Location Services settings when you click About Location Services & Privacy.

    Look carefully at the position in the document of the text you quoted.  It's within the Location Based Suggestions bullet item, which is one item within a list of items that are explicitly stated to be available "By enabling Location Services".  i.e., you need to enable the master Location Services switch for any of these items to send any location data.  The quoted text is only suspicious when quoted out of context.

    Location-Based Suggestions has it's own switch that you can enable/disable, but that setting is only relevant when you've enabled the master Location Services switch.  In fact, the entire set of System Services is arranged and treated like any other app that requests location data, except that you actually have control over each of them individually.

    I read the first page of comments on the macrumors thread, and it looks like a mishmash of people that have their master Location Services switch enabled and are confused about how that affects other embedded location services.  Things like "...and all of my apps are either set to never use the location or use when in use and yet...", which implies that the master switch is enabled.  It's not surprising that group is confused.

    Seriously, read Apple's description/policy carefully (it helps to be looking at an iPhone so you can see the settings pages, but that's not strictly required), and you'll see that the master switch really is a master switch on iOS.  That's very different than the very poor (misleading) job android is doing, where what appears to be a master switch really isn't. 

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