2019 iPhone sticking with Face ID, but Android moving to in-screen fingerprint sensors

13

Comments

  • Reply 41 of 66
    Face ID is just plain better than fingerprint. I use both every day, one on my iPad and the other on my iPhone X. I didn’t say perfect, just better. Much better. One less step in unlocking my device. I just pick it up and the great majority of the time it’s unlocked before I even think about it. The only time it’s awkward is when I forget to wear my watch at Trader Joe’s and have to use Pay on my phone instead. The terminal requires that the phone tap or be close to it, which tends to put my face out of range or at a bad angle as it’s trying to confirm my ID for the purchase. Probably just need to use it more often and make sure I’m doing each step in the proper order. 

    How do you pay with your watch? Double press the side button THEN hold your watch to the reader.

    FaceID is the same. Double press the side button while looking at your phone. When you see the FaceID icon change (and the message to hold to reader) THEN tap your phone.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 42 of 66
    maestro64 said:
    The fact that Apple jumped over through the screen touchID tells me there is some short of flaw in the technology which apple was not able to over come and everyone else decide to just ignore and let the users deal with it. I am think that you have to give up some level of display/image quality to make it work.

    I also believe competitors are not going the face ID route since it is a very hard software and hardware problem to solve, Apple owns most of the IP (China will shameless steal it), lastly Apple is controlling most of the supply chain for the part to make it work, there is no capacity to supply parts to other companies. We are probably still a year or more away until more capacity is online.
    I think the issue they couldn’t overcome was what happens when the screen breaks from being dropped. I’m sure cracks between the finger and the sensor can’t be good, then having to deal with laws that allows anyone to repair the screen and they still have to warranty it. It was more trouble than it’s worth. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 43 of 66
    davgreg said:
    nunzy said:
    If TouchID was so great Apple would use it. Clearly FaceID is better.
    No it is not better. More expensive, but with more potential for trouble.

    If the digital map of your face gets hacked, do you have another to replace it with? People have 10 digits but only one face.

    Apple is changing stuff just to be changing stuff these days and FaceID is the answer to a question few were asking. If they doubt pushback, wait until people have to pay for that overpriced technology that they do not want. I would not pay $1k for a cell phone if you gave me the money to buy it.


    So what you're saying is that the iPhone X is only good for the Demon King Ravana?




    watto_cobra
  • Reply 44 of 66
    melgross said:

    Personally I prefer the finger print reader on the back rather than the front. I work from home so the only time i want to touch the front of my phone to unlock it, on my desk, I'm in a "safe" place anyway and my phone is unlocked. I find the reach around (please don't censor me for that phrase) is a more natural position than pressing a home button when I'm carrying my phone. I can see that facial recognition is a better solution so I can't imagine Apple going back but it does limit them to a notch until they can come up with something else.
    I think that’s odd. What you describe is more complex and more subject to moving your finger around the back until you hit the sensor. It’s there, not because it’s better, but because these companies got themselves in a situation where there was no way to put it on the front.
    I've only used a phone with a front sensor for a few months in the past but generally found it requires two hands to operate, unless I was doing it before picking it up from a desk. On the back, i can find the sensor instantly as i'm pulling it from my pocket. Whether or not it was intentional or a compromise to allow more screen real estate doesn't really matter to me when it comes to my preference
  • Reply 45 of 66
    maestro64 said:
    I also believe competitors are not going the face ID route since it is a very hard software and hardware problem to solve, Apple owns most of the IP (China will shameless steal it)
    Quite probably, but given the length of time it took them to reverse engineer the simple lightning connector, it's gonna take years to recreate Face ID successfully.
  • Reply 46 of 66
    Android manufacturers are stuck with fingerprint ID since they can’t make 3D face unlocking work. It’s not like they have a choice. 

    That's not true.
  • Reply 47 of 66
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 21,105member
    jbdragon said:
    davgreg said:
    nunzy said:
    If TouchID was so great Apple would use it. Clearly FaceID is better.
    No it is not better. More expensive, but with more potential for trouble.

    If the digital map of your face gets hacked, do you have another to replace it with? People have 10 digits but only one face.

    Apple is changing stuff just to be changing stuff these days and FaceID is the answer to a question few were asking. If they doubt pushback, wait until people have to pay for that overpriced technology that they do not want. I would not pay $1k for a cell phone if you gave me the money to buy it.

    Clearly, you don't know how Face ID works.   There's NOT a picture of your face stored.  It's a HASH of your faced and it's stored in the Secure Enclave on your iPhone, just like TouchID.  It's not getting HACKED.  It's Encrypted and perfectly safe. 

    FaceID is also far, far more Secure that TouchID.  Go buy a cheapo Android phone!!!  There's a device that will get hacked or send all your info to Google and others.

    How did TouchID and/or fingerprint sensors in general suddenly become relatively insecure? You trusted them a year ago. FaceID didn't make fingerprint sensors a security concern did it?
  • Reply 48 of 66
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 21,105member
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    Personally I prefer the finger print reader on the back rather than the front. I work from home so the only time i want to touch the front of my phone to unlock it, on my desk, I'm in a "safe" place anyway and my phone is unlocked. I find the reach around (please don't censor me for that phrase) is a more natural position than pressing a home button when I'm carrying my phone. I can see that facial recognition is a better solution so I can't imagine Apple going back but it does limit them to a notch until they can come up with something else.
    I think that’s odd. What you describe is more complex and more subject to moving your finger around the back until you hit the sensor. It’s there, not because it’s better, but because these companies got themselves in a situation where there was no way to put it on the front.
    We've had this discussion many times. What you are saying is incorrect. I once provided you with many examples of phones with rear mounted sensors with ample room on the front for the sensor.

    You do not move your finger around the back until you hit the sensor. You know where it is. Your index finger even falls naturally onto the sensor. My current phone has a front sensor and is nowhere near as convenient, ergonomic or comfortable as my last phone in this regard.

    The rear sensor was never a problem when laying flat on a desk or on a stand either. I had that phone for three years and it was a joy to use.

    Front or rear is preference. Some like it on the back and some like it on the front. 

    Obviously when chins went the way of the dodo they had to go on the back or use an alternative system.
    I too have phones with front fingerprint sensors and ones with them on the back. I really dislike the front placed ones. Most of the rear ones I've used feel far more natural to use, lift and unlock in one motion before even raising it to my face, while front ones require conscious finger placement for me. 
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 49 of 66
    gatorguy said:
    jbdragon said:
    davgreg said:
    nunzy said:
    If TouchID was so great Apple would use it. Clearly FaceID is better.
    No it is not better. More expensive, but with more potential for trouble.

    If the digital map of your face gets hacked, do you have another to replace it with? People have 10 digits but only one face.

    Apple is changing stuff just to be changing stuff these days and FaceID is the answer to a question few were asking. If they doubt pushback, wait until people have to pay for that overpriced technology that they do not want. I would not pay $1k for a cell phone if you gave me the money to buy it.

    Clearly, you don't know how Face ID works.   There's NOT a picture of your face stored.  It's a HASH of your faced and it's stored in the Secure Enclave on your iPhone, just like TouchID.  It's not getting HACKED.  It's Encrypted and perfectly safe. 

    FaceID is also far, far more Secure that TouchID.  Go buy a cheapo Android phone!!!  There's a device that will get hacked or send all your info to Google and others.

    How did TouchID and/or fingerprint sensors in general suddenly become relatively insecure? You trusted them a year ago. FaceID didn't make fingerprint sensors a security concern did it?

    They didn't become less secure. It's just that a better system (more secure) came out (FaceID).


    gatorguy said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    Personally I prefer the finger print reader on the back rather than the front. I work from home so the only time i want to touch the front of my phone to unlock it, on my desk, I'm in a "safe" place anyway and my phone is unlocked. I find the reach around (please don't censor me for that phrase) is a more natural position than pressing a home button when I'm carrying my phone. I can see that facial recognition is a better solution so I can't imagine Apple going back but it does limit them to a notch until they can come up with something else.
    I think that’s odd. What you describe is more complex and more subject to moving your finger around the back until you hit the sensor. It’s there, not because it’s better, but because these companies got themselves in a situation where there was no way to put it on the front.
    We've had this discussion many times. What you are saying is incorrect. I once provided you with many examples of phones with rear mounted sensors with ample room on the front for the sensor.

    You do not move your finger around the back until you hit the sensor. You know where it is. Your index finger even falls naturally onto the sensor. My current phone has a front sensor and is nowhere near as convenient, ergonomic or comfortable as my last phone in this regard.

    The rear sensor was never a problem when laying flat on a desk or on a stand either. I had that phone for three years and it was a joy to use.

    Front or rear is preference. Some like it on the back and some like it on the front. 

    Obviously when chins went the way of the dodo they had to go on the back or use an alternative system.
    I too have phones with front fingerprint sensors and ones with them on the back. I really dislike the front placed ones. Most of the rear ones I've used feel far more natural to use, lift and unlock in one motion before even raising it to my face, while front ones require conscious finger placement for me. 

    Never had a problem with front sensors and one-handed operation (I use my thumb as primary unlock). I could always pull my phone from my pocket and unlock it as I go. The problem with rear sensors is when you can't easily access the rear sensor. Like if your phone is sitting on the desk. Or in a charging dock. In your car. Or even on the handlebars of your bike. My phone sits in an angled dock at work so I can see the screen without having to pick it up. With Touch ID it was easy to unlock (which I do countless times a day, not just unlocking the phone but for Apps that require authentication before opening or to authorize purchases). Having to remove my device from a dock to access a stupidly placed rear sensor is beyond asinine. And don't say "use a PIN if you can't access the sensor". I use a very long PIN since I rarely have to enter it, and rely on FaceID (previously TouchID) for authentication. I'm not switching to an easy PIN to compensate for a difficult to access sensor.


    BTW, for the people claiming rear is more intuitive, what will you do when they start using under-screen sensors? Now they will not only be placed back on the front (which you claim is worse) but they will lack an "indent" on the screen to allow your finger to easily find the sensor. It will be the worst possible fingerprint sensor in existence (in terms of usability).

    Don't kid yourselves. Rear sensors weren't created because they're superior. They were created because they couldn't shrink the bezels AND keep a front sensor.
    SpamSandwichwatto_cobra
  • Reply 50 of 66
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 21,105member
    gatorguy said:
    jbdragon said:
    davgreg said:
    nunzy said:
    If TouchID was so great Apple would use it. Clearly FaceID is better.
    No it is not better. More expensive, but with more potential for trouble.

    If the digital map of your face gets hacked, do you have another to replace it with? People have 10 digits but only one face.

    Apple is changing stuff just to be changing stuff these days and FaceID is the answer to a question few were asking. If they doubt pushback, wait until people have to pay for that overpriced technology that they do not want. I would not pay $1k for a cell phone if you gave me the money to buy it.

    Clearly, you don't know how Face ID works.   There's NOT a picture of your face stored.  It's a HASH of your faced and it's stored in the Secure Enclave on your iPhone, just like TouchID.  It's not getting HACKED.  It's Encrypted and perfectly safe. 

    FaceID is also far, far more Secure that TouchID.  Go buy a cheapo Android phone!!!  There's a device that will get hacked or send all your info to Google and others.

    How did TouchID and/or fingerprint sensors in general suddenly become relatively insecure? You trusted them a year ago. FaceID didn't make fingerprint sensors a security concern did it?

    They didn't become less secure. It's just that a better system (more secure) came out (FaceID).


    gatorguy said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    Personally I prefer the finger print reader on the back rather than the front. I work from home so the only time i want to touch the front of my phone to unlock it, on my desk, I'm in a "safe" place anyway and my phone is unlocked. I find the reach around (please don't censor me for that phrase) is a more natural position than pressing a home button when I'm carrying my phone. I can see that facial recognition is a better solution so I can't imagine Apple going back but it does limit them to a notch until they can come up with something else.
    I think that’s odd. What you describe is more complex and more subject to moving your finger around the back until you hit the sensor. It’s there, not because it’s better, but because these companies got themselves in a situation where there was no way to put it on the front.
    We've had this discussion many times. What you are saying is incorrect. I once provided you with many examples of phones with rear mounted sensors with ample room on the front for the sensor.

    You do not move your finger around the back until you hit the sensor. You know where it is. Your index finger even falls naturally onto the sensor. My current phone has a front sensor and is nowhere near as convenient, ergonomic or comfortable as my last phone in this regard.

    The rear sensor was never a problem when laying flat on a desk or on a stand either. I had that phone for three years and it was a joy to use.

    Front or rear is preference. Some like it on the back and some like it on the front. 

    Obviously when chins went the way of the dodo they had to go on the back or use an alternative system.
    I too have phones with front fingerprint sensors and ones with them on the back. I really dislike the front placed ones. Most of the rear ones I've used feel far more natural to use, lift and unlock in one motion before even raising it to my face, while front ones require conscious finger placement for me. 


    Don't kid yourselves. Rear sensors weren't created because they're superior. They were created because they couldn't shrink the bezels AND keep a front sensor.
    That's obviously not correct since there's been many Android phones with front-placed fingerprint sensors. For many years. Some even have sensors on the side. 

    Apple went to FaceID because they couldn't shrink the bezels even further and still leave a fingerprint sensor on the front. Some Android vendors may resort to putting them on the front under the glass in the search for zero-bezel phones even tho you've seen few complaints about rear-mounted ones. As usual we'll all have to adapt to what the market offers. Personally I'm very happy with a rear sensor and currently have no reason to look for a "better way".  Whether in the lower bezel on under the screen it's still a front mount sensor and that's not what I prefer. 

    On your other point are you seriously claiming the iPhone 8 (and all iPhones before it) comes up short on security because it relies on a fingerprint sensor rather than FaceID? Have you ever been concerned that a stranger could pick up any of your iPhones and unlock it via TouchID? I've NEVER thought about it as a problem that needs a solution.

    I assume there are convenience trade-offs to consider in any case, even with the old front sensor/back sensor arguments, much less face vs. fingerprint.
    edited September 2018
  • Reply 51 of 66
    dewmedewme Posts: 2,156member
    davgreg said:
    nunzy said:
    If TouchID was so great Apple would use it. Clearly FaceID is better.
     I would not pay $1k for a cell phone if you gave me the money to buy it.
    Obviously. If I'm giving you money expressly to buy a phone, at whatever price the phone happens to cost, I would be paying for it, not you. 
    SpamSandwichsphericwatto_cobra
  • Reply 52 of 66
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,198member
    gatorguy said:
    jbdragon said:
    davgreg said:
    nunzy said:
    If TouchID was so great Apple would use it. Clearly FaceID is !better.
    No it is not better. More expensive, but with more potential for trouble.

    If the digital map of your face gets hacked, do you have another to replace it with? People have 10 digits but only one face.

    Apple is changing stuff just to be changing stuff these days and FaceID is the answer to a question few were asking. If they doubt pushback, wait until people have to pay for that overpriced technology that they do not want. I would not pay $1k for a cell phone if you gave me the money to buy it.

    Clearly, you don't know how Face ID works.   There's NOT a picture of your face stored.  It's a HASH of your faced and it's stored in the Secure Enclave on your iPhone, just like TouchID.  It's not getting HACKED.  It's Encrypted and perfectly safe. 

    FaceID is also far, far more Secure that TouchID.  Go buy a cheapo Android phone!!!  There's a device that will get hacked or send all your info to Google and others.

    How did TouchID and/or fingerprint sensors in general suddenly become relatively insecure? You trusted them a year ago. FaceID didn't make fingerprint sensors a security concern did it?

    They didn't become less secure. It's just that a better system (more secure) came out (FaceID).


    gatorguy said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    Personally I prefer the finger print reader on the back rather than the front. I work from home so the only time i want to touch the front of my phone to unlock it, on my desk, I'm in a "safe" place anyway and my phone is unlocked. I find the reach around (please don't censor me for that phrase) is a more natural position than pressing a home button when I'm carrying my phone. I can see that facial recognition is a better solution so I can't imagine Apple going back but it does limit them to a notch until they can come up with something else.
    I think that’s odd. What you describe is more complex and more subject to moving your finger around the back until you hit the sensor. It’s there, not because it’s better, but because these companies got themselves in a situation where there was no way to put it on the front.
    We've had this discussion many times. What you are saying is incorrect. I once provided you with many examples of phones with rear mounted sensors with ample room on the front for the sensor.

    You do not move your finger around the back until you hit the sensor. You know where it is. Your index finger even falls naturally onto the sensor. My current phone has a front sensor and is nowhere near as convenient, ergonomic or comfortable as my last phone in this regard.

    The rear sensor was never a problem when laying flat on a desk or on a stand either. I had that phone for three years and it was a joy to use.

    Front or rear is preference. Some like it on the back and some like it on the front. 

    Obviously when chins went the way of the dodo they had to go on the back or use an alternative system.
    I too have phones with front fingerprint sensors and ones with them on the back. I really dislike the front placed ones. Most of the rear ones I've used feel far more natural to use, lift and unlock in one motion before even raising it to my face, while front ones require conscious finger placement for me. 

    Never had a problem with front sensors and one-handed operation (I use my thumb as primary unlock). I could always pull my phone from my pocket and unlock it as I go. The problem with rear sensors is when you can't easily access the rear sensor. Like if your phone is sitting on the desk. Or in a charging dock. In your car. Or even on the handlebars of your bike. My phone sits in an angled dock at work so I can see the screen without having to pick it up. With Touch ID it was easy to unlock (which I do countless times a day, not just unlocking the phone but for Apps that require authentication before opening or to authorize purchases). Having to remove my device from a dock to access a stupidly placed rear sensor is beyond asinine. And don't say "use a PIN if you can't access the sensor". I use a very long PIN since I rarely have to enter it, and rely on FaceID (previously TouchID) for authentication. I'm not switching to an easy PIN to compensate for a difficult to access sensor.


    BTW, for the people claiming rear is more intuitive, what will you do when they start using under-screen sensors? Now they will not only be placed back on the front (which you claim is worse) but they will lack an "indent" on the screen to allow your finger to easily find the sensor. It will be the worst possible fingerprint sensor in existence (in terms of usability).

    Don't kid yourselves. Rear sensors weren't created because they're superior. They were created because they couldn't shrink the bezels AND keep a front sensor.
    No need to kid anyone. Some people prefer rear sensors to (low sitting) front sensors. It's as simple as that. Preference.

    Now, if someone says it isn't intuitive, I will counter that it is. Totally, but at the end of the day it's preference. No more, no less.

    Double tap to wake, usage habits, trusted areas etc take care of the situations you present.

    For example my phone was set to lock after 30 minutes. If it was going to be out of my presence I manually locked it. No sensor involved. Just a button.

    This usage leads to less user intervention whether plugged in or docked or not. If the phone is mounted on your bike why lock it? It was mounted to be used or otherwise it wouldn't be mounted. Do you leave your bike with phone unattended? If battery use is the issue, the screen slept and double tap to wake was all that was needed. Rear sensor not needed.

    Depending in your own personal usage you will prefer one over the other but there is no 'kidding' oneself involved.


    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 53 of 66
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,894member
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    Personally I prefer the finger print reader on the back rather than the front. I work from home so the only time i want to touch the front of my phone to unlock it, on my desk, I'm in a "safe" place anyway and my phone is unlocked. I find the reach around (please don't censor me for that phrase) is a more natural position than pressing a home button when I'm carrying my phone. I can see that facial recognition is a better solution so I can't imagine Apple going back but it does limit them to a notch until they can come up with something else.
    I think that’s odd. What you describe is more complex and more subject to moving your finger around the back until you hit the sensor. It’s there, not because it’s better, but because these companies got themselves in a situation where there was no way to put it on the front.
    We've had this discussion many times. What you are saying is incorrect. I once provided you with many examples of phones with rear mounted sensors with ample room on the front for the sensor.

    Here is my last phone:

    http://gsminsider.com/2015/08/huawei-honor-7-goes-official-in-europe-ships-directly-to-customer/

    You do not move your finger around the back until you hit the sensor. You know where it is. Your index finger even falls naturally onto the sensor. My current phone has a front sensor and is nowhere near as convenient, ergonomic or comfortable as my last phone in this regard.

    The rear sensor was never a problem when laying flat on a desk or on a stand either. I had that phone for three years and it was a joy to use.

    Front or rear is preference. Some like it on the back and some like it on the front. 

    Obviously when chins went the way of the dodo they had to go on the back or use an alternative system.
    ‘Ample room” to you, in a picture has nothing to do with internal design. Google abandoned physical buttons years ago. Samsung kept theirs for a while, and dropped it when they extended their screen. So they put the button on the back, in a very bad place, then fixed that problem the next year. If you bothered to read anything when this was first happening, you would have seen that it was necessary, at first. Over time, it became accepted. With the extended screens, it can no longer be done.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 54 of 66
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,894member

    henrybay said:
    FaceID might cause eye damage in the long term. It sends thousands of infrared beams into the retina every day. The cumulative effect of this impact is still unknown (look it up on Google). There is a reason we are told to avoid looking directly at infrared beams, such as laser pointers. I will stick with TouchID and hope that Apple retains it on some models. 
    That’s ridiculous! The amount of Ir is very low. Many devices use these low levels of Ir. In addition, the frequency matters. They don’t use those frequencies for this. This isn’t a microwave oven. There are those who claim, with absolutely no evidence, that you will get cancer from cell phones. This claim is on that level.
    SpamSandwichsphericwatto_cobra
  • Reply 55 of 66
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,894member
    melgross said:

    Personally I prefer the finger print reader on the back rather than the front. I work from home so the only time i want to touch the front of my phone to unlock it, on my desk, I'm in a "safe" place anyway and my phone is unlocked. I find the reach around (please don't censor me for that phrase) is a more natural position than pressing a home button when I'm carrying my phone. I can see that facial recognition is a better solution so I can't imagine Apple going back but it does limit them to a notch until they can come up with something else.
    I think that’s odd. What you describe is more complex and more subject to moving your finger around the back until you hit the sensor. It’s there, not because it’s better, but because these companies got themselves in a situation where there was no way to put it on the front.
    I've only used a phone with a front sensor for a few months in the past but generally found it requires two hands to operate, unless I was doing it before picking it up from a desk. On the back, i can find the sensor instantly as i'm pulling it from my pocket. Whether or not it was intentional or a compromise to allow more screen real estate doesn't really matter to me when it comes to my preference
    It doesn’t require two hands. If I take it out of the holder on my belt, I unlock it with my thumb while holding it in that hand.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 56 of 66
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,894member
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    jbdragon said:
    davgreg said:
    nunzy said:
    If TouchID was so great Apple would use it. Clearly FaceID is better.
    No it is not better. More expensive, but with more potential for trouble.

    If the digital map of your face gets hacked, do you have another to replace it with? People have 10 digits but only one face.

    Apple is changing stuff just to be changing stuff these days and FaceID is the answer to a question few were asking. If they doubt pushback, wait until people have to pay for that overpriced technology that they do not want. I would not pay $1k for a cell phone if you gave me the money to buy it.

    Clearly, you don't know how Face ID works.   There's NOT a picture of your face stored.  It's a HASH of your faced and it's stored in the Secure Enclave on your iPhone, just like TouchID.  It's not getting HACKED.  It's Encrypted and perfectly safe. 

    FaceID is also far, far more Secure that TouchID.  Go buy a cheapo Android phone!!!  There's a device that will get hacked or send all your info to Google and others.

    How did TouchID and/or fingerprint sensors in general suddenly become relatively insecure? You trusted them a year ago. FaceID didn't make fingerprint sensors a security concern did it?

    They didn't become less secure. It's just that a better system (more secure) came out (FaceID).


    gatorguy said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    Personally I prefer the finger print reader on the back rather than the front. I work from home so the only time i want to touch the front of my phone to unlock it, on my desk, I'm in a "safe" place anyway and my phone is unlocked. I find the reach around (please don't censor me for that phrase) is a more natural position than pressing a home button when I'm carrying my phone. I can see that facial recognition is a better solution so I can't imagine Apple going back but it does limit them to a notch until they can come up with something else.
    I think that’s odd. What you describe is more complex and more subject to moving your finger around the back until you hit the sensor. It’s there, not because it’s better, but because these companies got themselves in a situation where there was no way to put it on the front.
    We've had this discussion many times. What you are saying is incorrect. I once provided you with many examples of phones with rear mounted sensors with ample room on the front for the sensor.

    You do not move your finger around the back until you hit the sensor. You know where it is. Your index finger even falls naturally onto the sensor. My current phone has a front sensor and is nowhere near as convenient, ergonomic or comfortable as my last phone in this regard.

    The rear sensor was never a problem when laying flat on a desk or on a stand either. I had that phone for three years and it was a joy to use.

    Front or rear is preference. Some like it on the back and some like it on the front. 

    Obviously when chins went the way of the dodo they had to go on the back or use an alternative system.
    I too have phones with front fingerprint sensors and ones with them on the back. I really dislike the front placed ones. Most of the rear ones I've used feel far more natural to use, lift and unlock in one motion before even raising it to my face, while front ones require conscious finger placement for me. 


    Don't kid yourselves. Rear sensors weren't created because they're superior. They were created because they couldn't shrink the bezels AND keep a front sensor.
    That's obviously not correct since there's been many Android phones with front-placed fingerprint sensors. For many years. Some even have sensors on the side. 

    Apple went to FaceID because they couldn't shrink the bezels even further and still leave a fingerprint sensor on the front. Some Android vendors may resort to putting them on the front under the glass in the search for zero-bezel phones even tho you've seen few complaints about rear-mounted ones. As usual we'll all have to adapt to what the market offers. Personally I'm very happy with a rear sensor and currently have no reason to look for a "better way".  Whether in the lower bezel on under the screen it's still a front mount sensor and that's not what I prefer. 

    On your other point are you seriously claiming the iPhone 8 (and all iPhones before it) comes up short on security because it relies on a fingerprint sensor rather than FaceID? Have you ever been concerned that a stranger could pick up any of your iPhones and unlock it via TouchID? I've NEVER thought about it as a problem that needs a solution.

    I assume there are convenience trade-offs to consider in any case, even with the old front sensor/back sensor arguments, much less face vs. fingerprint.
    Since Touch ID, the first touch sensor, was out only since the 5 series, Android phones, which didn’t have fingerprint sensors for a year, or two, later, and then went to rear sensors almost immediately because of the taking away of physical front buttons, etc. could no have had them for more than a short time. You make it seem as though they were there for four or five years, which isn’t true, though I suppose a model, or two might have.

    whatever these OEMs have to do, you will have to follow along, unless you don’t buy the model you really want when replacing what you have now. That’s just the way it is. From what I’ve been reading, behind the screen sensors will be slower, and less reliable, as well as more expensive. So stick to cheaper models for a while, and you should be ok, for some time.

    There wasn't a concern about security with Touch ID. But Face ID is better.
    edited September 2018
  • Reply 57 of 66
    You do not move your finger around the back until you hit the sensor. You know where it is. Your index finger even falls naturally onto the sensor. My current phone has a front sensor and is nowhere near as convenient, ergonomic or comfortable as my last phone in this regard.

    The rear sensor was never a problem when laying flat on a desk or on a stand either. I had that phone for three years and it was a joy to use.

    Front or rear is preference. Some like it on the back and some like it on the front. 

    Obviously when chins went the way of the dodo they had to go on the back or use an alternative

    What if... "You're holding it wrong"ⓒ
  • Reply 58 of 66
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,944member
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    jbdragon said:
    davgreg said:
    nunzy said:
    If TouchID was so great Apple would use it. Clearly FaceID is better.
    No it is not better. More expensive, but with more potential for trouble.

    If the digital map of your face gets hacked, do you have another to replace it with? People have 10 digits but only one face.

    Apple is changing stuff just to be changing stuff these days and FaceID is the answer to a question few were asking. If they doubt pushback, wait until people have to pay for that overpriced technology that they do not want. I would not pay $1k for a cell phone if you gave me the money to buy it.

    Clearly, you don't know how Face ID works.   There's NOT a picture of your face stored.  It's a HASH of your faced and it's stored in the Secure Enclave on your iPhone, just like TouchID.  It's not getting HACKED.  It's Encrypted and perfectly safe. 

    FaceID is also far, far more Secure that TouchID.  Go buy a cheapo Android phone!!!  There's a device that will get hacked or send all your info to Google and others.

    How did TouchID and/or fingerprint sensors in general suddenly become relatively insecure? You trusted them a year ago. FaceID didn't make fingerprint sensors a security concern did it?

    They didn't become less secure. It's just that a better system (more secure) came out (FaceID).


    gatorguy said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    Personally I prefer the finger print reader on the back rather than the front. I work from home so the only time i want to touch the front of my phone to unlock it, on my desk, I'm in a "safe" place anyway and my phone is unlocked. I find the reach around (please don't censor me for that phrase) is a more natural position than pressing a home button when I'm carrying my phone. I can see that facial recognition is a better solution so I can't imagine Apple going back but it does limit them to a notch until they can come up with something else.
    I think that’s odd. What you describe is more complex and more subject to moving your finger around the back until you hit the sensor. It’s there, not because it’s better, but because these companies got themselves in a situation where there was no way to put it on the front.
    We've had this discussion many times. What you are saying is incorrect. I once provided you with many examples of phones with rear mounted sensors with ample room on the front for the sensor.

    You do not move your finger around the back until you hit the sensor. You know where it is. Your index finger even falls naturally onto the sensor. My current phone has a front sensor and is nowhere near as convenient, ergonomic or comfortable as my last phone in this regard.

    The rear sensor was never a problem when laying flat on a desk or on a stand either. I had that phone for three years and it was a joy to use.

    Front or rear is preference. Some like it on the back and some like it on the front. 

    Obviously when chins went the way of the dodo they had to go on the back or use an alternative system.
    I too have phones with front fingerprint sensors and ones with them on the back. I really dislike the front placed ones. Most of the rear ones I've used feel far more natural to use, lift and unlock in one motion before even raising it to my face, while front ones require conscious finger placement for me. 


    Don't kid yourselves. Rear sensors weren't created because they're superior. They were created because they couldn't shrink the bezels AND keep a front sensor.
    That's obviously not correct since there's been many Android phones with front-placed fingerprint sensors. For many years. Some even have sensors on the side. 

    Apple went to FaceID because they couldn't shrink the bezels even further and still leave a fingerprint sensor on the front. Some Android vendors may resort to putting them on the front under the glass in the search for zero-bezel phones even tho you've seen few complaints about rear-mounted ones. As usual we'll all have to adapt to what the market offers. Personally I'm very happy with a rear sensor and currently have no reason to look for a "better way".  Whether in the lower bezel on under the screen it's still a front mount sensor and that's not what I prefer. 

    On your other point are you seriously claiming the iPhone 8 (and all iPhones before it) comes up short on security because it relies on a fingerprint sensor rather than FaceID? Have you ever been concerned that a stranger could pick up any of your iPhones and unlock it via TouchID? I've NEVER thought about it as a problem that needs a solution.

    I assume there are convenience trade-offs to consider in any case, even with the old front sensor/back sensor arguments, much less face vs. fingerprint.
    The question isn't whether you have a preference for the rear sensor, that's just learned behavior that is easy to change. it's whether it is rational to keep a sensor on the back if the device has a high function under screen sensor.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 59 of 66
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,198member
    melgross said:
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:

    Personally I prefer the finger print reader on the back rather than the front. I work from home so the only time i want to touch the front of my phone to unlock it, on my desk, I'm in a "safe" place anyway and my phone is unlocked. I find the reach around (please don't censor me for that phrase) is a more natural position than pressing a home button when I'm carrying my phone. I can see that facial recognition is a better solution so I can't imagine Apple going back but it does limit them to a notch until they can come up with something else.
    I think that’s odd. What you describe is more complex and more subject to moving your finger around the back until you hit the sensor. It’s there, not because it’s better, but because these companies got themselves in a situation where there was no way to put it on the front.
    We've had this discussion many times. What you are saying is incorrect. I once provided you with many examples of phones with rear mounted sensors with ample room on the front for the sensor.

    Here is my last phone:

    http://gsminsider.com/2015/08/huawei-honor-7-goes-official-in-europe-ships-directly-to-customer/

    You do not move your finger around the back until you hit the sensor. You know where it is. Your index finger even falls naturally onto the sensor. My current phone has a front sensor and is nowhere near as convenient, ergonomic or comfortable as my last phone in this regard.

    The rear sensor was never a problem when laying flat on a desk or on a stand either. I had that phone for three years and it was a joy to use.

    Front or rear is preference. Some like it on the back and some like it on the front. 

    Obviously when chins went the way of the dodo they had to go on the back or use an alternative system.
    ‘Ample room” to you, in a picture has nothing to do with internal design. Google abandoned physical buttons years ago. Samsung kept theirs for a while, and dropped it when they extended their screen. So they put the button on the back, in a very bad place, then fixed that problem the next year. If you bothered to read anything when this was first happening, you would have seen that it was necessary, at first. Over time, it became accepted. With the extended screens, it can no longer be done.
    Both Honor and Huawei have lots of models with front and rear designs. It's a trend they developed in line with user studies and feedback and is perhaps the biggest manufacturer of rear mounted sensors. Front or rear, the sensor takes up the same internal space on the phone. As can be seen by all the different models, accomodating them really hasn't been an issue at all and putting them on the rear no doubt allowed them to shave off a little chin, leaving the minimum required for the screen and bottom components.

    The only difference now is that with the trend towards larger screen to body ratios and larger screens, front lower sensors are less manageable in one handed use (only saved only by another trend in aspect ratio which has led to narrower phones). I think we're on the limit here though.

    Both companies are still using both placements though and biometric solutions are more varied than ever before so users really have a lot to choose from and some phones are now including multiple options on the same phone.

    In fact the front facing sensor on my current phone was my sole concern. There was another flagship phone from the same brand with a rear sensor that, all things being equal, would have swayed me but I received a special flash sale offer from a retailer that was difficult to resist.


  • Reply 60 of 66
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,894member
    backstab said:
    You do not move your finger around the back until you hit the sensor. You know where it is. Your index finger even falls naturally onto the sensor. My current phone has a front sensor and is nowhere near as convenient, ergonomic or comfortable as my last phone in this regard.

    The rear sensor was never a problem when laying flat on a desk or on a stand either. I had that phone for three years and it was a joy to use.

    Front or rear is preference. Some like it on the back and some like it on the front. 

    Obviously when chins went the way of the dodo they had to go on the back or use an alternative

    What if... "You're holding it wrong"ⓒ
    Yeah, very funny. But is was shown that all other phones had the same problem, more or less.
    backstab
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