Tim Cook says Apple's earnings power is 'probably under-appreciated' in CNBC 'Mad Money' i...

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 67
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,151moderator

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Damage control and totally expected and logical. 

    As usual he will be 'thrilled' to announce Apple's second largest revenue results with so many headwinds in place and that is also logical and expected.

    Company wide things are not bad but iPhone needs to be looked at - closely.



    iPhone needs to be looked at?

    Bullshit.
    Second quarter 2018. Apple got shunted out of second place in world shipments - for the first time since 2010.

    Almost four years of flat sales and now very likely to announce a historic dip in unit sales coinciding with a revenue warning - on its blowout quarter.

    2018 iterative upgrade to iPhone.

    40% wiped off company value in just a few months.

    Company health in general may be good. The iPhone needs to be looked at though. The Chinese iPhone market alone is of such vital strategic importance to Apple that the company formally admitted that any successful ban on iPhone sales in the Chinese market (as a result of QC's legal efforts) would mean Apple having no option to give up the fight against QC.



    This post proves you are nothing but an outright liar.
    Some links:


    In third grade we learned about sets.  Remember?  One of these doesn’t belong with the others?  Stand up, AvonB, and tell the class how Apple lost $452 billion.  Apple had, and still has, about $250 billion in cash.  Was some of that lost?  Did they lose the Apple Park campus?  Which $452 billion did they lose?  And where did it go?    See, this is the reason you attract vitriol (it’s a word that means people don’t like you).  Because you either make up stories or you are too easy to believe the stories others make up.  Don’t worry though, Apple hasn’t lost $452 billion. In fact, even with their drop in revenue this last quarter, they still actually made billions in profits to add to their pile or use to buy back shares and pay dividends.  It’s going to be alright, I promise.   
    ericthehalfbeewatto_cobra
  • Reply 42 of 67
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,151moderator

    avon b7 said:
    sflocal said:
    avon b7 said:
    sflocal said:
    avon b7 said:
    Damage control and totally expected and logical. 

    As usual he will be 'thrilled' to announce Apple's second largest revenue results with so many headwinds in place and that is also logical and expected.

    Company wide things are not bad but iPhone needs to be looked at - closely.


    Nonsense.  Any other company out there would KILL to have a “bad” $84B quarter.

    Tim Cook is calling out these Wall Street monkeys.
    That's $84B in global Apple business and yes people would kill fir that but you wilfully ignore that my comments are on the iPhone business and that is far from nonsense when you put the year into perspective.


    You mean the phone business that EVERY phone manufacturer is going through from the holiday quarter?  I didn't conveniently step around your comments.  They were just not worth discussing with you.
    Apple sales have been flat for years. This isn't about the holiday quarter. The holiday quarter is simply the wake up jolt.

    ericthehalfbeewatto_cobra
  • Reply 43 of 67
    sirozhasirozha Posts: 618member

    sirozha said:

    Cook needs to stop talking or if he does talk stop being so defensive. Oh and if the ecosystem is under appreciated by the market whose fault is that? Cook’s.
    No, it's the fault of analysts who have been dazzled by the bright, shiny object called "iPhone" and were unable to see anything else.

    Meanwhile, the ecosystem that powers both it and the Mac line continued to quietly grow and grow stronger each year.
    It's interesting  you would say this about the Apple ecosystem. In my opinion, the ecosystem in complete shambles, as Tim Cook's Apple has taken a baseball bat to the ecosystem that SJ built. 
    I’m sure you have a few examples in mind, but you’d have to be myopic to cite them and not provide a survey of all that’s changed in the ecosystem since... whenever (Job’s era, 1980s, since iPhone 5?).  Apple has, each year, onboarded huge numbers of new users while adding services, continuity, partners doing medical studies using Apple products, and a myriad of other extensions and additions to its ecosystem.  Show me what Samsung has done, ecosystem wise.  Or Huawei, or _________.  
    I'm not an expert on Samsung, but Smart Things seem to be a decent ecosystem.

    I don't own anything Samsung except for a non-smart fridge, so I would not be the best person to answer that question. 

    However, I can write up a page off the top of my mind of total misses and slips in the Apple ecosystem, but I'm sure you can write up the same page off the top of your mind. 
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 44 of 67
    sirozhasirozha Posts: 618member

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Damage control and totally expected and logical. 

    As usual he will be 'thrilled' to announce Apple's second largest revenue results with so many headwinds in place and that is also logical and expected.

    Company wide things are not bad but iPhone needs to be looked at - closely.



    iPhone needs to be looked at?

    Bullshit.
    Second quarter 2018. Apple got shunted out of second place in world shipments - for the first time since 2010.

    Almost four years of flat sales and now very likely to announce a historic dip in unit sales coinciding with a revenue warning - on its blowout quarter.

    2018 iterative upgrade to iPhone.

    40% wiped off company value in just a few months.

    Company health in general may be good. The iPhone needs to be looked at though. The Chinese iPhone market alone is of such vital strategic importance to Apple that the company formally admitted that any successful ban on iPhone sales in the Chinese market (as a result of QC's legal efforts) would mean Apple having no option to give up the fight against QC.



    This post proves you are nothing but an outright liar.
    Some links:


    In third grade we learned about sets.  Remember?  One of these doesn’t belong with the others?  Stand up, AvonB, and tell the class how Apple lost $452 billion.  Apple had, and still has, about $250 billion in cash.  Was some of that lost?  Did they lose the Apple Park campus?  Which $452 billion did they lose?  And where did it go?    See, this is the reason you attract vitriol (it’s a word that means people don’t like you).  Because you either make up stories or you are too easy to believe the stories others make up.  Don’t worry though, Apple hasn’t lost $452 billion. In fact, even with their drop in revenue this last quarter, they still actually made billions in profits to add to their pile or use to buy back shares and pay dividends.  It’s going to be alright, I promise.   
    Apple didn't lose $452 billion.
    edited January 8 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 45 of 67
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Damage control and totally expected and logical. 

    As usual he will be 'thrilled' to announce Apple's second largest revenue results with so many headwinds in place and that is also logical and expected.

    Company wide things are not bad but iPhone needs to be looked at - closely.



    iPhone needs to be looked at?

    Bullshit.
    Second quarter 2018. Apple got shunted out of second place in world shipments - for the first time since 2010.

    Almost four years of flat sales and now very likely to announce a historic dip in unit sales coinciding with a revenue warning - on its blowout quarter.

    2018 iterative upgrade to iPhone.

    40% wiped off company value in just a few months.

    Company health in general may be good. The iPhone needs to be looked at though. The Chinese iPhone market alone is of such vital strategic importance to Apple that the company formally admitted that any successful ban on iPhone sales in the Chinese market (as a result of QC's legal efforts) would mean Apple having no option to give up the fight against QC.



    This post proves you are nothing but an outright liar.
    Some links:



    Simple. Your stupid point about Apple slipping to second in shipments.

    You can't compare total iPhone sales to total Samsung, Huawei or any other vendor because of the simple fact Apple doesn't sell low-end devices. You have brought this up before and had it explained to you multiple times. Explicitly by several people besides myself.

    When someone states something that's false, gets corrected over and over, then continues to make the same statement the only conclusion is they are a bald-faced liar.

    edited January 8 radarthekatwatto_cobra
  • Reply 46 of 67
    kevin keekevin kee Posts: 1,145member
    Cook needs to stop talking or if he does talk stop being so defensive. Oh and if the ecosystem is under appreciated by the market whose fault is that? Cook’s.
    People like you and this comment are the reason why Tim Cook should keep say things this. It's not being defensive, it's called transpired, like an exasperated parents whose kids never learnt.
    radarthekatwatto_cobra
  • Reply 47 of 67
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,302member

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Damage control and totally expected and logical. 

    As usual he will be 'thrilled' to announce Apple's second largest revenue results with so many headwinds in place and that is also logical and expected.

    Company wide things are not bad but iPhone needs to be looked at - closely.



    iPhone needs to be looked at?

    Bullshit.
    Second quarter 2018. Apple got shunted out of second place in world shipments - for the first time since 2010.

    Almost four years of flat sales and now very likely to announce a historic dip in unit sales coinciding with a revenue warning - on its blowout quarter.

    2018 iterative upgrade to iPhone.

    40% wiped off company value in just a few months.

    Company health in general may be good. The iPhone needs to be looked at though. The Chinese iPhone market alone is of such vital strategic importance to Apple that the company formally admitted that any successful ban on iPhone sales in the Chinese market (as a result of QC's legal efforts) would mean Apple having no option to give up the fight against QC.



    This post proves you are nothing but an outright liar.
    Some links:


    In third grade we learned about sets.  Remember?  One of these doesn’t belong with the others?  Stand up, AvonB, and tell the class how Apple lost $452 billion.  Apple had, and still has, about $250 billion in cash.  Was some of that lost?  Did they lose the Apple Park campus?  Which $452 billion did they lose?  And where did it go?    See, this is the reason you attract vitriol (it’s a word that means people don’t like you).  Because you either make up stories or you are too easy to believe the stories others make up.  Don’t worry though, Apple hasn’t lost $452 billion. In fact, even with their drop in revenue this last quarter, they still actually made billions in profits to add to their pile or use to buy back shares and pay dividends.  It’s going to be alright, I promise.   
    Where did I mention $452B?

    I said "40% wiped off company value". I didn't put an absolute dollar value on anything.

    What I gave was information that cannot be labelled as 'lies' in any conceivable way and I provided external links to support it.
    muthuk_vanalingamgatorguy
  • Reply 48 of 67
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,302member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Damage control and totally expected and logical. 

    As usual he will be 'thrilled' to announce Apple's second largest revenue results with so many headwinds in place and that is also logical and expected.

    Company wide things are not bad but iPhone needs to be looked at - closely.



    iPhone needs to be looked at?

    Bullshit.
    Second quarter 2018. Apple got shunted out of second place in world shipments - for the first time since 2010.

    Almost four years of flat sales and now very likely to announce a historic dip in unit sales coinciding with a revenue warning - on its blowout quarter.

    2018 iterative upgrade to iPhone.

    40% wiped off company value in just a few months.

    Company health in general may be good. The iPhone needs to be looked at though. The Chinese iPhone market alone is of such vital strategic importance to Apple that the company formally admitted that any successful ban on iPhone sales in the Chinese market (as a result of QC's legal efforts) would mean Apple having no option to give up the fight against QC.



    This post proves you are nothing but an outright liar.
    Some links:



    Simple. Your stupid point about Apple slipping to second in shipments.

    You can't compare total iPhone sales to total Samsung, Huawei or any other vendor because of the simple fact Apple doesn't sell low-end devices. You have brought this up before and had it explained to you multiple times. Explicitly by several people besides myself.

    When someone states something that's false, gets corrected over and over, then continues to make the same statement the only conclusion is they are a bald-faced liar.
    Well, you clearly missed the point then.

    The real point wasn't that Apple had slipped to second place. The point was it was the first time it had happened since 2010.

    All things being equal over such a long period, that is an interesting point, moreso when you consider that Huawei in this particular case (and reason for the slip) wasn't even a Apple handset competitor back then.

    It is very possible in fact that if Huawei hadn't entered the handset market, Apple would still be number two in worldwide shipments. I will go even further, and say part of Apple's troubles in China today are a direct result of Huawei providing fierce competition to Apple, not only in China but worldwide with the sole exception of the US where Apple lives in a government shepherded defacto protectorate.

    Huawei really isn't in the low end market from a business model context. It has moved more into the mid, high, premium and ultra premium bands with enormous success. It still produces some cheaper phones (and makes a profit off of them too) especially for some developing markets where Apple has also failed this year.


    You should understand this as you actually have access to Huawei phones in your part of the world and can see them in person.

    Being told you are wrong doesn't mean you actually are!

    I have been pretty much 100% right on everything I've put forward and haven't changed the base reasons for the arguments I have laid out. Not even in the slightest.

    However, you are accusing someone of 'lying'.

    You got called out for it and haven't provided anything to support your claims whereas I provided external links which stated - word for word - what I bolded in my original post.

    Now, the readers here will make up their own minds.


    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 49 of 67

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Damage control and totally expected and logical. 

    As usual he will be 'thrilled' to announce Apple's second largest revenue results with so many headwinds in place and that is also logical and expected.

    Company wide things are not bad but iPhone needs to be looked at - closely.



    iPhone needs to be looked at?

    Bullshit.
    Second quarter 2018. Apple got shunted out of second place in world shipments - for the first time since 2010.

    Almost four years of flat sales and now very likely to announce a historic dip in unit sales coinciding with a revenue warning - on its blowout quarter.

    2018 iterative upgrade to iPhone.

    40% wiped off company value in just a few months.

    Company health in general may be good. The iPhone needs to be looked at though. The Chinese iPhone market alone is of such vital strategic importance to Apple that the company formally admitted that any successful ban on iPhone sales in the Chinese market (as a result of QC's legal efforts) would mean Apple having no option to give up the fight against QC.



    This post proves you are nothing but an outright liar.
    Some links:


    In third grade we learned about sets.  Remember?  One of these doesn’t belong with the others?  Stand up, AvonB, and tell the class how Apple lost $452 billion.  Apple had, and still has, about $250 billion in cash.  Was some of that lost?  Did they lose the Apple Park campus?  Which $452 billion did they lose?  And where did it go?    See, this is the reason you attract vitriol (it’s a word that means people don’t like you).  Because you either make up stories or you are too easy to believe the stories others make up.  Don’t worry though, Apple hasn’t lost $452 billion. In fact, even with their drop in revenue this last quarter, they still actually made billions in profits to add to their pile or use to buy back shares and pay dividends.  It’s going to be alright, I promise.   

    Radarthekat - I don't understand why you are attacking Avon B7 for your own assumptions of what he mentioned, rather than what he actually wrote. I can understand the likes of EricthehalfBee, StrangeDays doing it. But not someone being a moderator. You concluded your comment by "It is going to be alright, I promise". Did Avon EVER say that Apple is DOOMED? Nope. NEVER. Even he would say the same thing, if you/anyone asked that question "Is Apple DOOMED?" to him. Just read what he wrote and make your counter arguments on those points.


    What is wrong in mentioning "iPhone needs to be looked at - closely"??? Didn't Apple CEO say that Apple is "MISSING" its OWN guidance in a quarter which has NOT happened for about 60 past quarters? And the reason for that is iPhone sales. Why someone is taking OFFENSE at that statement AND a moderator follows up on that attack for making that statement is beyond me.


    Edit: Do you guys want an "Echo chamber" where Everyone praises whatever Apple does? If so, please let us know explicitly. So far, I have NOT seen such a behavior from moderators of this great forum (the ONLY forum in which I find it worth reading the comments made by forum members). Not in this thread though, which I find it pretty odd.

    edited January 9 avon b7gatorguy
  • Reply 50 of 67
    tipootipoo Posts: 1,058member
    The P/E multiple is looking awfully low especially after that 15% flash sale. Been loading up. I very much doubt this is the peak of Apples money making power, and they'll be around for decades, so it seems like an amazing buy-in opportunity. 
    muthuk_vanalingamradarthekat
  • Reply 51 of 67
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,982member

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Damage control and totally expected and logical. 

    As usual he will be 'thrilled' to announce Apple's second largest revenue results with so many headwinds in place and that is also logical and expected.

    Company wide things are not bad but iPhone needs to be looked at - closely.



    iPhone needs to be looked at?

    Bullshit.
    Second quarter 2018. Apple got shunted out of second place in world shipments - for the first time since 2010.

    Almost four years of flat sales and now very likely to announce a historic dip in unit sales coinciding with a revenue warning - on its blowout quarter.

    2018 iterative upgrade to iPhone.

    40% wiped off company value in just a few months.

    Company health in general may be good. The iPhone needs to be looked at though. The Chinese iPhone market alone is of such vital strategic importance to Apple that the company formally admitted that any successful ban on iPhone sales in the Chinese market (as a result of QC's legal efforts) would mean Apple having no option to give up the fight against QC.



    This post proves you are nothing but an outright liar.
    Some links:


    In third grade we learned about sets.  Remember?  One of these doesn’t belong with the others?  Stand up, AvonB, and tell the class how Apple lost $452 billion.  Apple had, and still has, about $250 billion in cash.  Was some of that lost?  Did they lose the Apple Park campus?  Which $452 billion did they lose?  And where did it go?    See, this is the reason you attract vitriol (it’s a word that means people don’t like you).  Because you either make up stories or you are too easy to believe the stories others make up.  Don’t worry though, Apple hasn’t lost $452 billion. In fact, even with their drop in revenue this last quarter, they still actually made billions in profits to add to their pile or use to buy back shares and pay dividends.  It’s going to be alright, I promise.   

    Radarthekat - I don't understand why you are attacking Avon B7 for your own assumptions of what he mentioned, rather than what he actually wrote. I can understand the likes of EricthehalfBee, StrangeDays doing it. But not someone being a moderator. You concluded your comment by "It is going to be alright, I promise". Did Avon EVER say that Apple is DOOMED? Nope. NEVER. Even he would say the same thing, if you/anyone asked that question "Is Apple DOOMED?" to him. Just read what he wrote and make your counter arguments on those points.


    What is wrong in mentioning "iPhone needs to be looked at - closely"??? Didn't Apple CEO say that Apple is "MISSING" its OWN guidance in a quarter which has NOT happened for about 60 past quarters? And the reason for that is iPhone sales. Why someone is taking OFFENSE at that statement AND a moderator follows up on that attack for making that statement is beyond me.


    Edit: Do you guys want an "Echo chamber" where Everyone praises whatever Apple does? If so, please let us know explicitly. So far, I have NOT seen such a behavior from moderators of this great forum (the ONLY forum in which I find it worth reading the comments made by forum members). Not in this thread though, which I find it pretty odd.

    Do you think what is happening in China might have had an impact? Do you think that it might be that Apple is the canary in the coal mine wrt a mature smartphone market, now arriving in China? Are you aware that Apple did pretty much as Apple guided that it would elsewhere in the world? Are you aware that the collapse in China accelerated in November, and is beginning to look like a negative growth scenario for China's economy?
     
    https://chinachange.org/2018/12/28/a-great-shift-unseen-over-the-last-forty-years/

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46809867
    First slowdown in auto sales in 20 years

    You and Avon B7 are quite fond of blaming Apple's pricing for its unit sales woes, but the fact is, most Chinese OEM's have low margins, and high acquisition costs for any growth that they do have. Android OS growth is flat, or worse, worldwide. What do you think will happen in the next years if China continues its low growth rate, and still has trade issues with the West, especially the U.S? Those margins are going to collapse as Chinese OEM's attempt to survive the market collapse. Maybe that will be good for Huawei, seeing consolidation of the Chinese OEM's, but it will also look pretty bad financially.

    The problem with Avon B7 is that he primarily focuses on hardware features in his arguments, poorly I might add, makes broad statements about Huawei financial success as if it is all due to smartphone sales, (Huawei, a "private" company in an autocracy, does in fact, have enterprise and telecom divisions), and generally attempts to portray Apple in as poor light as possible.

    I have attempted in the past to portray Apple as a company that has a broad ecosystem that is the value to the customer, not just the hardware, even though I consider that hardware to be best in class for overall use of the consumer. Those "features" that Android OS devices lead Apple in, is pretty much the same story that Apple has been attacked since the original iPhone, yet Apple always seems to be the device that all others are ultimately compared to.

    Avon B7 likes to portray Huawei as leading in still imaging, by a very small measure, I might add, and behind in 5G, which, for the most part, isn't going to be broadly available for years in most markets, plus fast charging, and battery life. All useful features, but not necessarily deciding factors in a purchase. The fact that Apple has a growing user base, even with extended replacement cycles, and lower unit sales, still assures Apple of the revenue stream that no other smartphone vendor will ever see.

    Frankly, a sufficient reason that I have an iPhone, currently a 7 Plus, is that it is, in my opinion, quite a bit more secure right out of the packaging, something that I wouldn't assume for any other phone save maybe the Pixel. I have mentioned, that I will be most likely purchasing a new iPhone this fall, as well as the next generation iPad Pro, and 5G will not be coming to me in my location for some years, I'm not concerned about current battery life, and I have enough apps for photography, and a DSLR, so that I am not envious of the current generation of smartphone imaging.

    I'm waiting in glee for the results of how the Chinese OEM's deal with lengthening replacement cycles. It should be epic.
    edited January 9 watto_cobraradarthekat
  • Reply 52 of 67
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,302member
    tmay said:

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Damage control and totally expected and logical. 

    As usual he will be 'thrilled' to announce Apple's second largest revenue results with so many headwinds in place and that is also logical and expected.

    Company wide things are not bad but iPhone needs to be looked at - closely.



    iPhone needs to be looked at?

    Bullshit.
    Second quarter 2018. Apple got shunted out of second place in world shipments - for the first time since 2010.

    Almost four years of flat sales and now very likely to announce a historic dip in unit sales coinciding with a revenue warning - on its blowout quarter.

    2018 iterative upgrade to iPhone.

    40% wiped off company value in just a few months.

    Company health in general may be good. The iPhone needs to be looked at though. The Chinese iPhone market alone is of such vital strategic importance to Apple that the company formally admitted that any successful ban on iPhone sales in the Chinese market (as a result of QC's legal efforts) would mean Apple having no option to give up the fight against QC.



    This post proves you are nothing but an outright liar.
    Some links:


    In third grade we learned about sets.  Remember?  One of these doesn’t belong with the others?  Stand up, AvonB, and tell the class how Apple lost $452 billion.  Apple had, and still has, about $250 billion in cash.  Was some of that lost?  Did they lose the Apple Park campus?  Which $452 billion did they lose?  And where did it go?    See, this is the reason you attract vitriol (it’s a word that means people don’t like you).  Because you either make up stories or you are too easy to believe the stories others make up.  Don’t worry though, Apple hasn’t lost $452 billion. In fact, even with their drop in revenue this last quarter, they still actually made billions in profits to add to their pile or use to buy back shares and pay dividends.  It’s going to be alright, I promise.   

    Radarthekat - I don't understand why you are attacking Avon B7 for your own assumptions of what he mentioned, rather than what he actually wrote. I can understand the likes of EricthehalfBee, StrangeDays doing it. But not someone being a moderator. You concluded your comment by "It is going to be alright, I promise". Did Avon EVER say that Apple is DOOMED? Nope. NEVER. Even he would say the same thing, if you/anyone asked that question "Is Apple DOOMED?" to him. Just read what he wrote and make your counter arguments on those points.


    What is wrong in mentioning "iPhone needs to be looked at - closely"??? Didn't Apple CEO say that Apple is "MISSING" its OWN guidance in a quarter which has NOT happened for about 60 past quarters? And the reason for that is iPhone sales. Why someone is taking OFFENSE at that statement AND a moderator follows up on that attack for making that statement is beyond me.


    Edit: Do you guys want an "Echo chamber" where Everyone praises whatever Apple does? If so, please let us know explicitly. So far, I have NOT seen such a behavior from moderators of this great forum (the ONLY forum in which I find it worth reading the comments made by forum members). Not in this thread though, which I find it pretty odd.

    Do you think what is happening in China might have had an impact? Do you think that it might be that Apple is the canary in the coal mine wrt a mature smartphone market, now arriving in China? Are you aware that Apple did pretty much as Apple guided that it would elsewhere in the world? Are you aware that the collapse in Chine accelerated in November, and is beginning to look like a negative growth scenario for China's economy?
     
    https://chinachange.org/2018/12/28/a-great-shift-unseen-over-the-last-forty-years/

    You and Avon B7 are quite fond of blaming Apple's pricing for its unit sales woes, but the fact is, most Chinese OEM's have low margins, and high acquisition costs for any growth that they do have. Android OS growth is flat, or worse, worldwide. What do you think will happen in the next years if China continues its low growth rate, and still has trade issues with the West, especially the U.S? Those margins are going to collapse as Chinese OEM's attempt to survive the market collapse. Maybe that will be good for Huawei, seeing consolidation of the Chinese OEM's, but it will also look pretty bad financially.

    The problem with Avon B7 is that he primarily focuses on hardware features in his arguments, poorly I might add, makes broad statements about Huawei financial success as if it is all due to smartphone sales, (Huawei, a "private" company in an autocracy, does in fact, have enterprise and telecom divisions), and generally attempts to portray Apple in as poor light as possible.

    I have attempted in the past to portray Apple as a company that has a broad ecosystem that is the value to the customer, not just the hardware, even though I consider that hardware to be best in class for overall use of the consumer. Those "features" that Android OS devices lead Apple in, is pretty much the same story that Apple has been attacked since the original iPhone, yet Apple always seems to be the device that all others are ultimately compared to.

    Avon B7 likes to portray Huawei as leading in still imaging, by a very small measure, I might add, and behind in 5G, which, for the most part, isn't going to be broadly available for years in most markets, plus fast charging, and battery life. All useful features, but not necessarily deciding factors in a purchase. The fact that Apple has a growing user base, even with extended replacement cycles, and lower unit sales, still assures Apple of the revenue stream that no other smartphone vendor will ever see.

    Frankly, a sufficient reason that I have an iPhone, currently a 7 Plus, is that it is, in my opinion, quite a bit more secure right out of the packaging, something that I wouldn't assume for any other phone save maybe the Pixel. I have mentioned, that I will be most likely purchasing a new iPhone this fall, as well as the next generation iPad Pro, and 5G will not be coming to me in my location for some years, I'm not concerned about current battery life, and I have enough apps for photography, and a DSLR, so that I am not envious of the current generation of smartphone imaging.

    I'm waiting in glee for the results of how the Chinese OEM's deal with lengthening replacement cycles. It should be epic.
    Well that is mostly untrue with regards to me. I am not surprised.

    I have not changed my viewpoint at all in over two years. Not only that, everything I said could happen, largely has happened.

    Sometimes broad statements are necessary to condense things down but I have provided hundreds of links to factual - and - opinion pieces to support my opinion. An opinion that hasn't changed and - with recent developments - is borne out very well.

    I have looked at Apple's iPhone business from many angles and documented its stagnation in the consumer arena. You have insisted on investor related angles that have absolutely nothing to do with the main purchaser of iPhones: consumers.

    I have always made references to Huawei's three core businesses. Logically more weight is given to the consumer division when comparing to Apple's iPhone business.

    You need to rewind a couple of years a take a fresh look at how you and a few others reacted when I predicted that a major competitor (Huawei) was rising from the depths to shake up the smartphone duopoly. I was met with all kinds of scorn, ridicule and laughs. Here we are today, almost three years later and pretty much everything I forecast has actually materialised.

    You and others simply underestimated (and wildly at that) what Huawei was capable of doing. Now you are injecting politics into references of Huawei just as you did yesterday with the Iran claims. Anything to swing attention elsewhere, I suppose.

    No doubt you would also politicise this development too:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/bensin/2019/01/08/this-huawei-powered-a-i-camera-can-track-and-identify-humans-even-in-a-crowd/#69b9e0c5e7ba
    edited January 9
  • Reply 53 of 67
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,982member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Damage control and totally expected and logical. 

    As usual he will be 'thrilled' to announce Apple's second largest revenue results with so many headwinds in place and that is also logical and expected.

    Company wide things are not bad but iPhone needs to be looked at - closely.



    iPhone needs to be looked at?

    Bullshit.
    Second quarter 2018. Apple got shunted out of second place in world shipments - for the first time since 2010.

    Almost four years of flat sales and now very likely to announce a historic dip in unit sales coinciding with a revenue warning - on its blowout quarter.

    2018 iterative upgrade to iPhone.

    40% wiped off company value in just a few months.

    Company health in general may be good. The iPhone needs to be looked at though. The Chinese iPhone market alone is of such vital strategic importance to Apple that the company formally admitted that any successful ban on iPhone sales in the Chinese market (as a result of QC's legal efforts) would mean Apple having no option to give up the fight against QC.



    This post proves you are nothing but an outright liar.
    Some links:


    In third grade we learned about sets.  Remember?  One of these doesn’t belong with the others?  Stand up, AvonB, and tell the class how Apple lost $452 billion.  Apple had, and still has, about $250 billion in cash.  Was some of that lost?  Did they lose the Apple Park campus?  Which $452 billion did they lose?  And where did it go?    See, this is the reason you attract vitriol (it’s a word that means people don’t like you).  Because you either make up stories or you are too easy to believe the stories others make up.  Don’t worry though, Apple hasn’t lost $452 billion. In fact, even with their drop in revenue this last quarter, they still actually made billions in profits to add to their pile or use to buy back shares and pay dividends.  It’s going to be alright, I promise.   

    Radarthekat - I don't understand why you are attacking Avon B7 for your own assumptions of what he mentioned, rather than what he actually wrote. I can understand the likes of EricthehalfBee, StrangeDays doing it. But not someone being a moderator. You concluded your comment by "It is going to be alright, I promise". Did Avon EVER say that Apple is DOOMED? Nope. NEVER. Even he would say the same thing, if you/anyone asked that question "Is Apple DOOMED?" to him. Just read what he wrote and make your counter arguments on those points.


    What is wrong in mentioning "iPhone needs to be looked at - closely"??? Didn't Apple CEO say that Apple is "MISSING" its OWN guidance in a quarter which has NOT happened for about 60 past quarters? And the reason for that is iPhone sales. Why someone is taking OFFENSE at that statement AND a moderator follows up on that attack for making that statement is beyond me.


    Edit: Do you guys want an "Echo chamber" where Everyone praises whatever Apple does? If so, please let us know explicitly. So far, I have NOT seen such a behavior from moderators of this great forum (the ONLY forum in which I find it worth reading the comments made by forum members). Not in this thread though, which I find it pretty odd.

    Do you think what is happening in China might have had an impact? Do you think that it might be that Apple is the canary in the coal mine wrt a mature smartphone market, now arriving in China? Are you aware that Apple did pretty much as Apple guided that it would elsewhere in the world? Are you aware that the collapse in Chine accelerated in November, and is beginning to look like a negative growth scenario for China's economy?
     
    https://chinachange.org/2018/12/28/a-great-shift-unseen-over-the-last-forty-years/

    You and Avon B7 are quite fond of blaming Apple's pricing for its unit sales woes, but the fact is, most Chinese OEM's have low margins, and high acquisition costs for any growth that they do have. Android OS growth is flat, or worse, worldwide. What do you think will happen in the next years if China continues its low growth rate, and still has trade issues with the West, especially the U.S? Those margins are going to collapse as Chinese OEM's attempt to survive the market collapse. Maybe that will be good for Huawei, seeing consolidation of the Chinese OEM's, but it will also look pretty bad financially.

    The problem with Avon B7 is that he primarily focuses on hardware features in his arguments, poorly I might add, makes broad statements about Huawei financial success as if it is all due to smartphone sales, (Huawei, a "private" company in an autocracy, does in fact, have enterprise and telecom divisions), and generally attempts to portray Apple in as poor light as possible.

    I have attempted in the past to portray Apple as a company that has a broad ecosystem that is the value to the customer, not just the hardware, even though I consider that hardware to be best in class for overall use of the consumer. Those "features" that Android OS devices lead Apple in, is pretty much the same story that Apple has been attacked since the original iPhone, yet Apple always seems to be the device that all others are ultimately compared to.

    Avon B7 likes to portray Huawei as leading in still imaging, by a very small measure, I might add, and behind in 5G, which, for the most part, isn't going to be broadly available for years in most markets, plus fast charging, and battery life. All useful features, but not necessarily deciding factors in a purchase. The fact that Apple has a growing user base, even with extended replacement cycles, and lower unit sales, still assures Apple of the revenue stream that no other smartphone vendor will ever see.

    Frankly, a sufficient reason that I have an iPhone, currently a 7 Plus, is that it is, in my opinion, quite a bit more secure right out of the packaging, something that I wouldn't assume for any other phone save maybe the Pixel. I have mentioned, that I will be most likely purchasing a new iPhone this fall, as well as the next generation iPad Pro, and 5G will not be coming to me in my location for some years, I'm not concerned about current battery life, and I have enough apps for photography, and a DSLR, so that I am not envious of the current generation of smartphone imaging.

    I'm waiting in glee for the results of how the Chinese OEM's deal with lengthening replacement cycles. It should be epic.
    Well that is mostly untrue with regards to me. I am not surprised.

    I have not changed my viewpoint at all in over two years. Not only that, everything I said could happen, largely has happened.

    Sometimes broad statements are necessary to condense things down but I have provided hundreds of links to factual - and - opinion pieces to support my opinion. An opinion that hasn't changed and - with recent developments - is borne out very well.

    I have looked at Apple's iPhone business from many angles and documented its stagnation in the consumer arena. You have insisted on investor related angles that have absolutely nothing to do with the main purchaser of iPhones: consumers.

    I have always made references to Huawei's three core businesses. Logically more weight is given to the consumer division when comparing to Apple's iPhone business.

    You need to rewind a couple of years a take a fresh look at how you and a few others reacted when I predicted that a major competitor (Huawei) was rising from the depths to shake up the smartphone duopoly. I was met with all kinds of scorn, ridicule and laughs. Here we are today, almost three years later and pretty much everything I forecast has actually materialised.

    You and others simply underestimated (and wildly at that) what Huawei was capable of doing. Now you are injecting politics into references of Huawei just as you did yesterday with the Iran claims. Anything to swing attention elsewhere, I suppose.

    No doubt you would also politicise this development too:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/bensin/2019/01/08/this-huawei-powered-a-i-camera-can-track-and-identify-humans-even-in-a-crowd/#69b9e0c5e7ba
    You linked, again I might add, to a technology that the Chinese Government, an autocratic one ruled by a President for Life, is using to suppress dissent.

    That's not the data point I would have lead with, but it makes sense for you because it pushes Huawei.
    watto_cobraradarthekat
  • Reply 54 of 67
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,302member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Damage control and totally expected and logical. 

    As usual he will be 'thrilled' to announce Apple's second largest revenue results with so many headwinds in place and that is also logical and expected.

    Company wide things are not bad but iPhone needs to be looked at - closely.



    iPhone needs to be looked at?

    Bullshit.
    Second quarter 2018. Apple got shunted out of second place in world shipments - for the first time since 2010.

    Almost four years of flat sales and now very likely to announce a historic dip in unit sales coinciding with a revenue warning - on its blowout quarter.

    2018 iterative upgrade to iPhone.

    40% wiped off company value in just a few months.

    Company health in general may be good. The iPhone needs to be looked at though. The Chinese iPhone market alone is of such vital strategic importance to Apple that the company formally admitted that any successful ban on iPhone sales in the Chinese market (as a result of QC's legal efforts) would mean Apple having no option to give up the fight against QC.



    This post proves you are nothing but an outright liar.
    Some links:


    In third grade we learned about sets.  Remember?  One of these doesn’t belong with the others?  Stand up, AvonB, and tell the class how Apple lost $452 billion.  Apple had, and still has, about $250 billion in cash.  Was some of that lost?  Did they lose the Apple Park campus?  Which $452 billion did they lose?  And where did it go?    See, this is the reason you attract vitriol (it’s a word that means people don’t like you).  Because you either make up stories or you are too easy to believe the stories others make up.  Don’t worry though, Apple hasn’t lost $452 billion. In fact, even with their drop in revenue this last quarter, they still actually made billions in profits to add to their pile or use to buy back shares and pay dividends.  It’s going to be alright, I promise.   

    Radarthekat - I don't understand why you are attacking Avon B7 for your own assumptions of what he mentioned, rather than what he actually wrote. I can understand the likes of EricthehalfBee, StrangeDays doing it. But not someone being a moderator. You concluded your comment by "It is going to be alright, I promise". Did Avon EVER say that Apple is DOOMED? Nope. NEVER. Even he would say the same thing, if you/anyone asked that question "Is Apple DOOMED?" to him. Just read what he wrote and make your counter arguments on those points.


    What is wrong in mentioning "iPhone needs to be looked at - closely"??? Didn't Apple CEO say that Apple is "MISSING" its OWN guidance in a quarter which has NOT happened for about 60 past quarters? And the reason for that is iPhone sales. Why someone is taking OFFENSE at that statement AND a moderator follows up on that attack for making that statement is beyond me.


    Edit: Do you guys want an "Echo chamber" where Everyone praises whatever Apple does? If so, please let us know explicitly. So far, I have NOT seen such a behavior from moderators of this great forum (the ONLY forum in which I find it worth reading the comments made by forum members). Not in this thread though, which I find it pretty odd.

    Do you think what is happening in China might have had an impact? Do you think that it might be that Apple is the canary in the coal mine wrt a mature smartphone market, now arriving in China? Are you aware that Apple did pretty much as Apple guided that it would elsewhere in the world? Are you aware that the collapse in Chine accelerated in November, and is beginning to look like a negative growth scenario for China's economy?
     
    https://chinachange.org/2018/12/28/a-great-shift-unseen-over-the-last-forty-years/

    You and Avon B7 are quite fond of blaming Apple's pricing for its unit sales woes, but the fact is, most Chinese OEM's have low margins, and high acquisition costs for any growth that they do have. Android OS growth is flat, or worse, worldwide. What do you think will happen in the next years if China continues its low growth rate, and still has trade issues with the West, especially the U.S? Those margins are going to collapse as Chinese OEM's attempt to survive the market collapse. Maybe that will be good for Huawei, seeing consolidation of the Chinese OEM's, but it will also look pretty bad financially.

    The problem with Avon B7 is that he primarily focuses on hardware features in his arguments, poorly I might add, makes broad statements about Huawei financial success as if it is all due to smartphone sales, (Huawei, a "private" company in an autocracy, does in fact, have enterprise and telecom divisions), and generally attempts to portray Apple in as poor light as possible.

    I have attempted in the past to portray Apple as a company that has a broad ecosystem that is the value to the customer, not just the hardware, even though I consider that hardware to be best in class for overall use of the consumer. Those "features" that Android OS devices lead Apple in, is pretty much the same story that Apple has been attacked since the original iPhone, yet Apple always seems to be the device that all others are ultimately compared to.

    Avon B7 likes to portray Huawei as leading in still imaging, by a very small measure, I might add, and behind in 5G, which, for the most part, isn't going to be broadly available for years in most markets, plus fast charging, and battery life. All useful features, but not necessarily deciding factors in a purchase. The fact that Apple has a growing user base, even with extended replacement cycles, and lower unit sales, still assures Apple of the revenue stream that no other smartphone vendor will ever see.

    Frankly, a sufficient reason that I have an iPhone, currently a 7 Plus, is that it is, in my opinion, quite a bit more secure right out of the packaging, something that I wouldn't assume for any other phone save maybe the Pixel. I have mentioned, that I will be most likely purchasing a new iPhone this fall, as well as the next generation iPad Pro, and 5G will not be coming to me in my location for some years, I'm not concerned about current battery life, and I have enough apps for photography, and a DSLR, so that I am not envious of the current generation of smartphone imaging.

    I'm waiting in glee for the results of how the Chinese OEM's deal with lengthening replacement cycles. It should be epic.
    Well that is mostly untrue with regards to me. I am not surprised.

    I have not changed my viewpoint at all in over two years. Not only that, everything I said could happen, largely has happened.

    Sometimes broad statements are necessary to condense things down but I have provided hundreds of links to factual - and - opinion pieces to support my opinion. An opinion that hasn't changed and - with recent developments - is borne out very well.

    I have looked at Apple's iPhone business from many angles and documented its stagnation in the consumer arena. You have insisted on investor related angles that have absolutely nothing to do with the main purchaser of iPhones: consumers.

    I have always made references to Huawei's three core businesses. Logically more weight is given to the consumer division when comparing to Apple's iPhone business.

    You need to rewind a couple of years a take a fresh look at how you and a few others reacted when I predicted that a major competitor (Huawei) was rising from the depths to shake up the smartphone duopoly. I was met with all kinds of scorn, ridicule and laughs. Here we are today, almost three years later and pretty much everything I forecast has actually materialised.

    You and others simply underestimated (and wildly at that) what Huawei was capable of doing. Now you are injecting politics into references of Huawei just as you did yesterday with the Iran claims. Anything to swing attention elsewhere, I suppose.

    No doubt you would also politicise this development too:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/bensin/2019/01/08/this-huawei-powered-a-i-camera-can-track-and-identify-humans-even-in-a-crowd/#69b9e0c5e7ba
    You linked, again I might add, to a technology that the Chinese Government, an autocratic one ruled by a President for Life, is using to suppress dissent.

    That's not the data point I would have lead with, but it makes sense for you because it pushes Huawei.
    And there you prove my point!
    gatorguy
  • Reply 55 of 67
    tmay said:

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Damage control and totally expected and logical. 

    As usual he will be 'thrilled' to announce Apple's second largest revenue results with so many headwinds in place and that is also logical and expected.

    Company wide things are not bad but iPhone needs to be looked at - closely.



    iPhone needs to be looked at?

    Bullshit.
    Second quarter 2018. Apple got shunted out of second place in world shipments - for the first time since 2010.

    Almost four years of flat sales and now very likely to announce a historic dip in unit sales coinciding with a revenue warning - on its blowout quarter.

    2018 iterative upgrade to iPhone.

    40% wiped off company value in just a few months.

    Company health in general may be good. The iPhone needs to be looked at though. The Chinese iPhone market alone is of such vital strategic importance to Apple that the company formally admitted that any successful ban on iPhone sales in the Chinese market (as a result of QC's legal efforts) would mean Apple having no option to give up the fight against QC.



    This post proves you are nothing but an outright liar.
    Some links:


    In third grade we learned about sets.  Remember?  One of these doesn’t belong with the others?  Stand up, AvonB, and tell the class how Apple lost $452 billion.  Apple had, and still has, about $250 billion in cash.  Was some of that lost?  Did they lose the Apple Park campus?  Which $452 billion did they lose?  And where did it go?    See, this is the reason you attract vitriol (it’s a word that means people don’t like you).  Because you either make up stories or you are too easy to believe the stories others make up.  Don’t worry though, Apple hasn’t lost $452 billion. In fact, even with their drop in revenue this last quarter, they still actually made billions in profits to add to their pile or use to buy back shares and pay dividends.  It’s going to be alright, I promise.   

    Radarthekat - I don't understand why you are attacking Avon B7 for your own assumptions of what he mentioned, rather than what he actually wrote. I can understand the likes of EricthehalfBee, StrangeDays doing it. But not someone being a moderator. You concluded your comment by "It is going to be alright, I promise". Did Avon EVER say that Apple is DOOMED? Nope. NEVER. Even he would say the same thing, if you/anyone asked that question "Is Apple DOOMED?" to him. Just read what he wrote and make your counter arguments on those points.


    What is wrong in mentioning "iPhone needs to be looked at - closely"??? Didn't Apple CEO say that Apple is "MISSING" its OWN guidance in a quarter which has NOT happened for about 60 past quarters? And the reason for that is iPhone sales. Why someone is taking OFFENSE at that statement AND a moderator follows up on that attack for making that statement is beyond me.


    Edit: Do you guys want an "Echo chamber" where Everyone praises whatever Apple does? If so, please let us know explicitly. So far, I have NOT seen such a behavior from moderators of this great forum (the ONLY forum in which I find it worth reading the comments made by forum members). Not in this thread though, which I find it pretty odd.

    Do you think what is happening in China might have had an impact? Do you think that it might be that Apple is the canary in the coal mine wrt a mature smartphone market, now arriving in China? Are you aware that Apple did pretty much as Apple guided that it would elsewhere in the world? Are you aware that the collapse in China accelerated in November, and is beginning to look like a negative growth scenario for China's economy?
     
    https://chinachange.org/2018/12/28/a-great-shift-unseen-over-the-last-forty-years/

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46809867
    First slowdown in auto sales in 20 years

    You and Avon B7 are quite fond of blaming Apple's pricing for its unit sales woes, but the fact is, most Chinese OEM's have low margins, and high acquisition costs for any growth that they do have. Android OS growth is flat, or worse, worldwide. What do you think will happen in the next years if China continues its low growth rate, and still has trade issues with the West, especially the U.S? Those margins are going to collapse as Chinese OEM's attempt to survive the market collapse. Maybe that will be good for Huawei, seeing consolidation of the Chinese OEM's, but it will also look pretty bad financially.

    The problem with Avon B7 is that he primarily focuses on hardware features in his arguments, poorly I might add, makes broad statements about Huawei financial success as if it is all due to smartphone sales, (Huawei, a "private" company in an autocracy, does in fact, have enterprise and telecom divisions), and generally attempts to portray Apple in as poor light as possible.

    I have attempted in the past to portray Apple as a company that has a broad ecosystem that is the value to the customer, not just the hardware, even though I consider that hardware to be best in class for overall use of the consumer. Those "features" that Android OS devices lead Apple in, is pretty much the same story that Apple has been attacked since the original iPhone, yet Apple always seems to be the device that all others are ultimately compared to.

    Avon B7 likes to portray Huawei as leading in still imaging, by a very small measure, I might add, and behind in 5G, which, for the most part, isn't going to be broadly available for years in most markets, plus fast charging, and battery life. All useful features, but not necessarily deciding factors in a purchase. The fact that Apple has a growing user base, even with extended replacement cycles, and lower unit sales, still assures Apple of the revenue stream that no other smartphone vendor will ever see.

    Frankly, a sufficient reason that I have an iPhone, currently a 7 Plus, is that it is, in my opinion, quite a bit more secure right out of the packaging, something that I wouldn't assume for any other phone save maybe the Pixel. I have mentioned, that I will be most likely purchasing a new iPhone this fall, as well as the next generation iPad Pro, and 5G will not be coming to me in my location for some years, I'm not concerned about current battery life, and I have enough apps for photography, and a DSLR, so that I am not envious of the current generation of smartphone imaging.

    I'm waiting in glee for the results of how the Chinese OEM's deal with lengthening replacement cycles. It should be epic.
    While I agree with many points that you have written, I still disagree with you on one core point - Pricing. If you think all of the iPhone unit sales reduction YoY is due to China ALONE, please be prepared for a surprise when Apple shares further details in the quarterly results. Reading between the lines, the iPhone unit sales reduction is a worldwide phenomenon, not just limited to China. In China, the drop in unit sales is SEVERE. In the rest of the world, it is still a reduction (may be around 10%), and the trend is NOT looking good. And the ONLY thing that has changed in the last 2 years is - Pricing. Let us wait for more details to be available in another 3 weeks, then discuss about this.
    edited January 9
  • Reply 56 of 67
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,982member
    tmay said:

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Damage control and totally expected and logical. 

    As usual he will be 'thrilled' to announce Apple's second largest revenue results with so many headwinds in place and that is also logical and expected.

    Company wide things are not bad but iPhone needs to be looked at - closely.



    iPhone needs to be looked at?

    Bullshit.
    Second quarter 2018. Apple got shunted out of second place in world shipments - for the first time since 2010.

    Almost four years of flat sales and now very likely to announce a historic dip in unit sales coinciding with a revenue warning - on its blowout quarter.

    2018 iterative upgrade to iPhone.

    40% wiped off company value in just a few months.

    Company health in general may be good. The iPhone needs to be looked at though. The Chinese iPhone market alone is of such vital strategic importance to Apple that the company formally admitted that any successful ban on iPhone sales in the Chinese market (as a result of QC's legal efforts) would mean Apple having no option to give up the fight against QC.



    This post proves you are nothing but an outright liar.
    Some links:


    In third grade we learned about sets.  Remember?  One of these doesn’t belong with the others?  Stand up, AvonB, and tell the class how Apple lost $452 billion.  Apple had, and still has, about $250 billion in cash.  Was some of that lost?  Did they lose the Apple Park campus?  Which $452 billion did they lose?  And where did it go?    See, this is the reason you attract vitriol (it’s a word that means people don’t like you).  Because you either make up stories or you are too easy to believe the stories others make up.  Don’t worry though, Apple hasn’t lost $452 billion. In fact, even with their drop in revenue this last quarter, they still actually made billions in profits to add to their pile or use to buy back shares and pay dividends.  It’s going to be alright, I promise.   

    Radarthekat - I don't understand why you are attacking Avon B7 for your own assumptions of what he mentioned, rather than what he actually wrote. I can understand the likes of EricthehalfBee, StrangeDays doing it. But not someone being a moderator. You concluded your comment by "It is going to be alright, I promise". Did Avon EVER say that Apple is DOOMED? Nope. NEVER. Even he would say the same thing, if you/anyone asked that question "Is Apple DOOMED?" to him. Just read what he wrote and make your counter arguments on those points.


    What is wrong in mentioning "iPhone needs to be looked at - closely"??? Didn't Apple CEO say that Apple is "MISSING" its OWN guidance in a quarter which has NOT happened for about 60 past quarters? And the reason for that is iPhone sales. Why someone is taking OFFENSE at that statement AND a moderator follows up on that attack for making that statement is beyond me.


    Edit: Do you guys want an "Echo chamber" where Everyone praises whatever Apple does? If so, please let us know explicitly. So far, I have NOT seen such a behavior from moderators of this great forum (the ONLY forum in which I find it worth reading the comments made by forum members). Not in this thread though, which I find it pretty odd.

    Do you think what is happening in China might have had an impact? Do you think that it might be that Apple is the canary in the coal mine wrt a mature smartphone market, now arriving in China? Are you aware that Apple did pretty much as Apple guided that it would elsewhere in the world? Are you aware that the collapse in China accelerated in November, and is beginning to look like a negative growth scenario for China's economy?
     
    https://chinachange.org/2018/12/28/a-great-shift-unseen-over-the-last-forty-years/

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46809867
    First slowdown in auto sales in 20 years

    You and Avon B7 are quite fond of blaming Apple's pricing for its unit sales woes, but the fact is, most Chinese OEM's have low margins, and high acquisition costs for any growth that they do have. Android OS growth is flat, or worse, worldwide. What do you think will happen in the next years if China continues its low growth rate, and still has trade issues with the West, especially the U.S? Those margins are going to collapse as Chinese OEM's attempt to survive the market collapse. Maybe that will be good for Huawei, seeing consolidation of the Chinese OEM's, but it will also look pretty bad financially.

    The problem with Avon B7 is that he primarily focuses on hardware features in his arguments, poorly I might add, makes broad statements about Huawei financial success as if it is all due to smartphone sales, (Huawei, a "private" company in an autocracy, does in fact, have enterprise and telecom divisions), and generally attempts to portray Apple in as poor light as possible.

    I have attempted in the past to portray Apple as a company that has a broad ecosystem that is the value to the customer, not just the hardware, even though I consider that hardware to be best in class for overall use of the consumer. Those "features" that Android OS devices lead Apple in, is pretty much the same story that Apple has been attacked since the original iPhone, yet Apple always seems to be the device that all others are ultimately compared to.

    Avon B7 likes to portray Huawei as leading in still imaging, by a very small measure, I might add, and behind in 5G, which, for the most part, isn't going to be broadly available for years in most markets, plus fast charging, and battery life. All useful features, but not necessarily deciding factors in a purchase. The fact that Apple has a growing user base, even with extended replacement cycles, and lower unit sales, still assures Apple of the revenue stream that no other smartphone vendor will ever see.

    Frankly, a sufficient reason that I have an iPhone, currently a 7 Plus, is that it is, in my opinion, quite a bit more secure right out of the packaging, something that I wouldn't assume for any other phone save maybe the Pixel. I have mentioned, that I will be most likely purchasing a new iPhone this fall, as well as the next generation iPad Pro, and 5G will not be coming to me in my location for some years, I'm not concerned about current battery life, and I have enough apps for photography, and a DSLR, so that I am not envious of the current generation of smartphone imaging.

    I'm waiting in glee for the results of how the Chinese OEM's deal with lengthening replacement cycles. It should be epic.
    While I agree with many points that you have written, I still disagree with you on one core point - Pricing. If you think all of the iPhone unit sales reduction YoY is due to China ALONE, please be prepared for a surprise when Apple shares further details in the quarterly results. Reading between the lines, the iPhone unit sales reduction is a worldwide phenomenon, not just limited to China. In China, the drop in unit sales is SEVERE. In the rest of the world, it is still a reduction (may be around 10%), and the trend is NOT looking good. And the ONLY thing that has changed in the last 2 years is - Pricing. Let us wait for more details to be available in another 3 weeks, then discuss about this.
    I haven't stated that at all, merely that China's economy has in fact declined, and the effect on consumption, especially in luxury goods is pronounced. There are certainly yet unreported sales declines by Chines OEM's that will come to light in the new future as the users keep their Android OS devices longer. Apple is not he only consumer product company that will see revenue losses.

    In the meantime, as per your request, Apple is in fact reducing prices in the Chinese market;

    https://9to5mac.com/2019/01/09/apple-cuts-iphone-production-china/?pushup=1

    "A report from China’s National Business Daily says Chinese iPhone vendors received word yesterday regarding price cuts to iPhone 8, 8 Plus, XR, XS and XS Max.

    The biggest price cut comes to the iPhone XR, which allegedly is seeing a 450 yuan (~$66) discount, bringing the total XR price to 5250 yuan (about $770). Generally though, most iPhones are seeing a 400 yuan (~$59) reduction."

    Seems that Apple is pretty responsive on pricing in China, don't you think?

    As for the rest of the world, I would expect Apple to make only small adjustments in marketing, until at least this fall, when they will bring new models and pricing strategies to the marketplace.

    I would note, that Apple, for all its woes today, is still gaining the bulk of revenues and profits in the marketplace, same as it has been for years.
    edited January 9 muthuk_vanalingamwatto_cobraradarthekat
  • Reply 57 of 67
    tmay said:
    tmay said:

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Damage control and totally expected and logical. 

    As usual he will be 'thrilled' to announce Apple's second largest revenue results with so many headwinds in place and that is also logical and expected.

    Company wide things are not bad but iPhone needs to be looked at - closely.



    iPhone needs to be looked at?

    Bullshit.
    Second quarter 2018. Apple got shunted out of second place in world shipments - for the first time since 2010.

    Almost four years of flat sales and now very likely to announce a historic dip in unit sales coinciding with a revenue warning - on its blowout quarter.

    2018 iterative upgrade to iPhone.

    40% wiped off company value in just a few months.

    Company health in general may be good. The iPhone needs to be looked at though. The Chinese iPhone market alone is of such vital strategic importance to Apple that the company formally admitted that any successful ban on iPhone sales in the Chinese market (as a result of QC's legal efforts) would mean Apple having no option to give up the fight against QC.



    This post proves you are nothing but an outright liar.
    Some links:


    In third grade we learned about sets.  Remember?  One of these doesn’t belong with the others?  Stand up, AvonB, and tell the class how Apple lost $452 billion.  Apple had, and still has, about $250 billion in cash.  Was some of that lost?  Did they lose the Apple Park campus?  Which $452 billion did they lose?  And where did it go?    See, this is the reason you attract vitriol (it’s a word that means people don’t like you).  Because you either make up stories or you are too easy to believe the stories others make up.  Don’t worry though, Apple hasn’t lost $452 billion. In fact, even with their drop in revenue this last quarter, they still actually made billions in profits to add to their pile or use to buy back shares and pay dividends.  It’s going to be alright, I promise.   

    Radarthekat - I don't understand why you are attacking Avon B7 for your own assumptions of what he mentioned, rather than what he actually wrote. I can understand the likes of EricthehalfBee, StrangeDays doing it. But not someone being a moderator. You concluded your comment by "It is going to be alright, I promise". Did Avon EVER say that Apple is DOOMED? Nope. NEVER. Even he would say the same thing, if you/anyone asked that question "Is Apple DOOMED?" to him. Just read what he wrote and make your counter arguments on those points.


    What is wrong in mentioning "iPhone needs to be looked at - closely"??? Didn't Apple CEO say that Apple is "MISSING" its OWN guidance in a quarter which has NOT happened for about 60 past quarters? And the reason for that is iPhone sales. Why someone is taking OFFENSE at that statement AND a moderator follows up on that attack for making that statement is beyond me.


    Edit: Do you guys want an "Echo chamber" where Everyone praises whatever Apple does? If so, please let us know explicitly. So far, I have NOT seen such a behavior from moderators of this great forum (the ONLY forum in which I find it worth reading the comments made by forum members). Not in this thread though, which I find it pretty odd.

    Do you think what is happening in China might have had an impact? Do you think that it might be that Apple is the canary in the coal mine wrt a mature smartphone market, now arriving in China? Are you aware that Apple did pretty much as Apple guided that it would elsewhere in the world? Are you aware that the collapse in China accelerated in November, and is beginning to look like a negative growth scenario for China's economy?
     
    https://chinachange.org/2018/12/28/a-great-shift-unseen-over-the-last-forty-years/

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46809867
    First slowdown in auto sales in 20 years

    You and Avon B7 are quite fond of blaming Apple's pricing for its unit sales woes, but the fact is, most Chinese OEM's have low margins, and high acquisition costs for any growth that they do have. Android OS growth is flat, or worse, worldwide. What do you think will happen in the next years if China continues its low growth rate, and still has trade issues with the West, especially the U.S? Those margins are going to collapse as Chinese OEM's attempt to survive the market collapse. Maybe that will be good for Huawei, seeing consolidation of the Chinese OEM's, but it will also look pretty bad financially.

    The problem with Avon B7 is that he primarily focuses on hardware features in his arguments, poorly I might add, makes broad statements about Huawei financial success as if it is all due to smartphone sales, (Huawei, a "private" company in an autocracy, does in fact, have enterprise and telecom divisions), and generally attempts to portray Apple in as poor light as possible.

    I have attempted in the past to portray Apple as a company that has a broad ecosystem that is the value to the customer, not just the hardware, even though I consider that hardware to be best in class for overall use of the consumer. Those "features" that Android OS devices lead Apple in, is pretty much the same story that Apple has been attacked since the original iPhone, yet Apple always seems to be the device that all others are ultimately compared to.

    Avon B7 likes to portray Huawei as leading in still imaging, by a very small measure, I might add, and behind in 5G, which, for the most part, isn't going to be broadly available for years in most markets, plus fast charging, and battery life. All useful features, but not necessarily deciding factors in a purchase. The fact that Apple has a growing user base, even with extended replacement cycles, and lower unit sales, still assures Apple of the revenue stream that no other smartphone vendor will ever see.

    Frankly, a sufficient reason that I have an iPhone, currently a 7 Plus, is that it is, in my opinion, quite a bit more secure right out of the packaging, something that I wouldn't assume for any other phone save maybe the Pixel. I have mentioned, that I will be most likely purchasing a new iPhone this fall, as well as the next generation iPad Pro, and 5G will not be coming to me in my location for some years, I'm not concerned about current battery life, and I have enough apps for photography, and a DSLR, so that I am not envious of the current generation of smartphone imaging.

    I'm waiting in glee for the results of how the Chinese OEM's deal with lengthening replacement cycles. It should be epic.
    While I agree with many points that you have written, I still disagree with you on one core point - Pricing. If you think all of the iPhone unit sales reduction YoY is due to China ALONE, please be prepared for a surprise when Apple shares further details in the quarterly results. Reading between the lines, the iPhone unit sales reduction is a worldwide phenomenon, not just limited to China. In China, the drop in unit sales is SEVERE. In the rest of the world, it is still a reduction (may be around 10%), and the trend is NOT looking good. And the ONLY thing that has changed in the last 2 years is - Pricing. Let us wait for more details to be available in another 3 weeks, then discuss about this.
    I haven't stated that at all, merely that China's economy has in fact declined, and the effect on consumption, especially in luxury goods is pronounced. There are certainly yet unreported sales declines by Chines OEM's that will come to light in the new future as the users keep their Android OS devices longer. Apple is not he only consumer product company that will see revenue losses.

    In the meantime, as per your request, Apple is in fact reducing prices in the Chinese market;

    https://9to5mac.com/2019/01/09/apple-cuts-iphone-production-china/?pushup=1

    "A report from China’s National Business Daily says Chinese iPhone vendors received word yesterday regarding price cuts to iPhone 8, 8 Plus, XR, XS and XS Max.

    The biggest price cut comes to the iPhone XR, which allegedly is seeing a 450 yuan (~$66) discount, bringing the total XR price to 5250 yuan (about $770). Generally though, most iPhones are seeing a 400 yuan (~$59) reduction."

    Seems that Apple is pretty responsive on pricing in China, don't you think?

    As for the rest of the world, I would expect Apple to make only small adjustments in marketing, until at least this fall, when they will bring new models and pricing strategies to the marketplace.

    I would note, that Apple, for all its woes today, is still gaining the bulk of revenues and profits in the marketplace, same as it has been for years.

    Agree completely with you on this.
    radarthekat
  • Reply 58 of 67
    carnegiecarnegie Posts: 736member
    avon b7 said:
    Damage control and totally expected and logical. 

    As usual he will be 'thrilled' to announce Apple's second largest revenue results with so many headwinds in place and that is also logical and expected.

    Company wide things are not bad but iPhone needs to be looked at - closely.


    He’s also going to announce the highest ever earnings per share.  I know a lot of folks cast the buybacks as ‘financial engineering’ but concentrating profits into the hands of those who are long-term investors is exactly what we long-term investors love.  Apple is in affect buying out our partners (fellow shareholders) on our behalf, leaving each of us with a larger share of future earnings.

    As to this current context, you stated it correctly; there are significant headwinds, but these are not of Apple’s making nor are they specific to Apple.  Without the trade war and associated pin action (heightened nationalism, etc), without the Qualcomm fracas (that was Qualcomm’s doing), and other exogenous factors, Apple’s quarter would likely have met guidance.  While nobody can know for sure, what we do know is that a certain person has ripped up the rule book and thrown trade relations into chaos.  That’s the very definition of extraordinary times.  Apple is fine and is piloting through this period, still making the most profits of any company.  
    In addition to reporting its highest ever EPS, Apple might report its highest ever earnings - without regard to share count. That would mean that Apple's last quarter was the most profitable quarter in history for a publicly-traded, privately-owned corporation, reporting anomalies aside.

    I say it might do that because we can't tell for sure from its most recent guidance, even assuming that guidance is correct. It isn't carried to enough significant digits. $84 billion could mean $83.5 billion or $84.49 billion and 38% could mean 37.5% or 38.49%. The guidance Apple gave us last week could mean as much as $20.4 billion in net income, which would best the $20.065 it had in Q1 FY 2018.

    That said, yes, one of the best ways of thinking about share buybacks is as a concentration of equity. They concentrate the effects of price moves that follow. If share price goes up, by more than the all-in costs of the buybacks, then the buybacks likely had a beneficial effect on share price.

    If share price appreciates considerably then a company such as Apple could, if it needed or wanted to for some reason, reissue shares and sell them at prices greater than it bought shares at. (That assumes, of course, that the share price went up a fair bit as selling a lot of new shares would tend, at least temporarily, to bring the share price down a bit.) It might then either have as much cash as it otherwise would have with more concentrated equity (a benefit) or have the same concentration of equity with more cash than it otherwise would have (also a benefit).
    tmaywatto_cobraradarthekat
  • Reply 59 of 67
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,151moderator
    avon b7 said:

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Damage control and totally expected and logical. 

    As usual he will be 'thrilled' to announce Apple's second largest revenue results with so many headwinds in place and that is also logical and expected.

    Company wide things are not bad but iPhone needs to be looked at - closely.



    iPhone needs to be looked at?

    Bullshit.
    Second quarter 2018. Apple got shunted out of second place in world shipments - for the first time since 2010.

    Almost four years of flat sales and now very likely to announce a historic dip in unit sales coinciding with a revenue warning - on its blowout quarter.

    2018 iterative upgrade to iPhone.

    40% wiped off company value in just a few months.

    Company health in general may be good. The iPhone needs to be looked at though. The Chinese iPhone market alone is of such vital strategic importance to Apple that the company formally admitted that any successful ban on iPhone sales in the Chinese market (as a result of QC's legal efforts) would mean Apple having no option to give up the fight against QC.



    This post proves you are nothing but an outright liar.
    Some links:


    In third grade we learned about sets.  Remember?  One of these doesn’t belong with the others?  Stand up, AvonB, and tell the class how Apple lost $452 billion.  Apple had, and still has, about $250 billion in cash.  Was some of that lost?  Did they lose the Apple Park campus?  Which $452 billion did they lose?  And where did it go?    See, this is the reason you attract vitriol (it’s a word that means people don’t like you).  Because you either make up stories or you are too easy to believe the stories others make up.  Don’t worry though, Apple hasn’t lost $452 billion. In fact, even with their drop in revenue this last quarter, they still actually made billions in profits to add to their pile or use to buy back shares and pay dividends.  It’s going to be alright, I promise.   
    Where did I mention $452B?

    I said "40% wiped off company value". I didn't put an absolute dollar value on anything.

    What I gave was information that cannot be labelled as 'lies' in any conceivable way and I provided external links to support it.
    You mentioned it right here...  try reading what you copy and paste.

    http://www.financetwitter.com/2019/01/ouch-apple-has-lost-452-billion-dollar-thats-three-times-size-of-mcdonalds-or-the-entire-facebook.html
  • Reply 60 of 67
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,151moderator

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Damage control and totally expected and logical. 

    As usual he will be 'thrilled' to announce Apple's second largest revenue results with so many headwinds in place and that is also logical and expected.

    Company wide things are not bad but iPhone needs to be looked at - closely.



    iPhone needs to be looked at?

    Bullshit.
    Second quarter 2018. Apple got shunted out of second place in world shipments - for the first time since 2010.

    Almost four years of flat sales and now very likely to announce a historic dip in unit sales coinciding with a revenue warning - on its blowout quarter.

    2018 iterative upgrade to iPhone.

    40% wiped off company value in just a few months.

    Company health in general may be good. The iPhone needs to be looked at though. The Chinese iPhone market alone is of such vital strategic importance to Apple that the company formally admitted that any successful ban on iPhone sales in the Chinese market (as a result of QC's legal efforts) would mean Apple having no option to give up the fight against QC.



    This post proves you are nothing but an outright liar.
    Some links:



    Simple. Your stupid point about Apple slipping to second in shipments.

    You can't compare total iPhone sales to total Samsung, Huawei or any other vendor because of the simple fact Apple doesn't sell low-end devices. You have brought this up before and had it explained to you multiple times. Explicitly by several people besides myself.

    When someone states something that's false, gets corrected over and over, then continues to make the same statement the only conclusion is they are a bald-faced liar.
    Well, you clearly missed the point then.

    The real point wasn't that Apple had slipped to second place. The point was it was the first time it had happened since 2010.

    All things being equal over such a long period, that is an interesting point, moreso when you consider that Huawei in this particular case (and reason for the slip) wasn't even a Apple handset competitor back then.

    It is very possible in fact that if Huawei hadn't entered the handset market, Apple would still be number two in worldwide shipments. I will go even further, and say part of Apple's troubles in China today are a direct result of Huawei providing fierce competition to Apple, not only in China but worldwide with the sole exception of the US where Apple lives in a government shepherded defacto protectorate.

    Huawei really isn't in the low end market from a business model context. It has moved more into the mid, high, premium and ultra premium bands with enormous success. It still produces some cheaper phones (and makes a profit off of them too) especially for some developing markets where Apple has also failed this year.


    You should understand this as you actually have access to Huawei phones in your part of the world and can see them in person.

    Being told you are wrong doesn't mean you actually are!

    I have been pretty much 100% right on everything I've put forward and haven't changed the base reasons for the arguments I have laid out. Not even in the slightest.

    However, you are accusing someone of 'lying'.

    You got called out for it and haven't provided anything to support your claims whereas I provided external links which stated - word for word - what I bolded in my original post.

    Now, the readers here will make up their own minds.


    It’s responses like this that show your lack of any insight or ability to think analytically.  You seem completely oblivious o the fact that the segment of the world population that is Apple’s premium target market is much smaller than the low end of the market.  And further, you don’t seem to be able to understand that technology starts with the early adopters and wealthy and then trickles down to the masses.  So you SHOULD expect that as India and African nations and other emerging nations with huge populations, even including China... as these nations adopt smartphones, they will overwhelmingly be taking on low-cost smartphones initially.  And that, sir, is all the analysis you need to do to understand why Apple wouldn’t maintain anything near tho top position in unit sales as this process plays out, regardless of the ever-shifting names of those manufacturers who swap the top spots back and forth in their race to the bottom.  Your agenda isn’t the truth, but to twist the story to favor anyone over Apple.  Nice try, and thanks for playing.
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