You mean the trio who removed the SD card slot, good keyboard, MagSafe, USB-A, and the glowing Apple logo from MacBooks labeled "Pro"?
Good riddance!
The industrial designers don't make decisions like those.
Exactly, though I’m guessing they were involved with the design of the butterfly keyboard. But they don’t decide what I/O a laptop has. Furthermore what does a glowing Apple logo have to do with a “pro” device? If anything the glowing logo was mostly for hipsters to show off their MBA in coffee shops.
I think of it like this:
Schiller: determines the features of a device
Ive: determines the look and feel of a device, including assembly processes
Riccio: determines how parts are designed, materials and assembly processes
Federighi: determines the software and software look and feel
It’s a matrixed org, so everyone has a hand in a product, and you can’t pin down decisions on one person. Like the 2013 Mac Pro, that really has to be on Schiller’s shoulders as he’s the one that determined what features it had. That it made it to production with its “thermal box” and Apple didn’t do anything about it for 2 years is a team problem.
The hardware team never should have let it out door since they knew the roadmap and its limitations. The designers and Schiller forgot that less cabling, less boxes is a feature while the shipped machine is a mess of cables with external storage, no 1st party displays, etc.
These 3 designers are but 3 cogs in a 1000 plus person decision machine.
Ive (and for a while Alan Dye while Ive was designing doorknobs for the UFO) is in charge of software UI design, not Federighi.
You mean the trio who removed the SD card slot, good keyboard, MagSafe, USB-A, and the glowing Apple logo from MacBooks labeled "Pro"?
Good riddance!
...But you’ve no idea who made those choices, so.
Johny Ive would have been responsible for either making those choices or encouraging those choices or approving them. Ultimately, it is Tim Cook who is supremely responsible, either directly by injecting his thinking into the design (highly unlikely) or indirectly by doing nothing to alter those changes (highly likely). And while one may argue that Tim Cook should not be engaged in the minutia of industrial design at Apple, Steve Jobs was actively engaged in that, and such care and hands-on engagement trickled down to us, the end user, in many wonderful ways. As such, I ultimately want to see Ive go. He's been in a position of great power at Apple for a very long time. And being in the same job all those years doesn't automatically mean he's becoming more savvy at what he does, but instead just shows that he is more entrenched in his job, doing things the way that suits him and the team under his watch. Let there be no mistake. Those in charge are responsible for the actions of the team under them.
And for those in this forum who constantly and often vehemently fight back against my pointed yet sound assertion that the butterfly keyboard (among other things) is "bad" on the MacBooks, consider what John Gruber had to say -- a man who is so pro-Apple that Apple constantly gives him sit-down interviews with top Apple executives:
"I consider these keyboards the worst products in Apple history. MacBooks should have the best keyboards in the industry; instead they’re the worst. They’re doing lasting harm to the reputation of the MacBook brand."
LASTING HARM, folks. Lasting harm. Ponder that. (And don't get me started on the forthcoming modular Mac Pro.)
I couldn't have stated the truth better myself. It's a travesty and the full responsibility of the Apple design team, many of whom I want to see go and go quickly. Good riddance to the three who left, regardless of what they were involved in. Apple Design needs a bigger shakeup than just the "loss" of three.
I love the current keyboard. Gruber wants everything to be like the Apple Extended Keyboard II (ie thick mushy keys) because whatever reasons. To each their own. Reliability is another issue, but I don't think the designers necessarily need to be held accountable here.
Also, you know literally nothing about the Mac Pro yet, so what would you "get started on"?
You mean the trio who removed the SD card slot, good keyboard, MagSafe, USB-A, and the glowing Apple logo from MacBooks labeled "Pro"?
Good riddance!
...But you’ve no idea who made those choices, so.
Johny Ive would have been responsible for either making those choices or encouraging those choices or approving them. Ultimately, it is Tim Cook who is supremely responsible, either directly by injecting his thinking into the design (highly unlikely) or indirectly by doing nothing to alter those changes (highly likely). And while one may argue that Tim Cook should not be engaged in the minutia of industrial design at Apple, Steve Jobs was actively engaged in that, and such care and hands-on engagement trickled down to us, the end user, in many wonderful ways. As such, I ultimately want to see Ive go. He's been in a position of great power at Apple for a very long time. And being in the same job all those years doesn't automatically mean he's becoming more savvy at what he does, but instead just shows that he is more entrenched in his job, doing things the way that suits him and the team under his watch. Let there be no mistake. Those in charge are responsible for the actions of the team under them.
And for those in this forum who constantly and often vehemently fight back against my pointed yet sound assertion that the butterfly keyboard (among other things) is "bad" on the MacBooks, consider what John Gruber had to say -- a man who is so pro-Apple that Apple constantly gives him sit-down interviews with top Apple executives:
"I consider these keyboards the worst products in Apple history. MacBooks should have the best keyboards in the industry; instead they’re the worst. They’re doing lasting harm to the reputation of the MacBook brand."
LASTING HARM, folks. Lasting harm. Ponder that. (And don't get me started on the forthcoming modular Mac Pro.)
I couldn't have stated the truth better myself. It's a travesty and the full responsibility of the Apple design team, many of whom I want to see go and go quickly. Good riddance to the three who left, regardless of what they were involved in. Apple Design needs a bigger shakeup than just the "loss" of three.
I love the current keyboard. Gruber wants everything to be like the Apple Extended Keyboard II (ie thick mushy keys) because whatever reasons. To each their own. Reliability is another issue, but I don't think the designers necessarily need to be held accountable here.
Also, you know literally nothing about the Mac Pro yet, so what would you "get started on"?
Gruber also doesn’t get to decide success or failure for Apple. Their financials ultimately determines that. He is entitled to an opinion, but everyone knows how the saying goes about opinions being like arseholes.
Gruber has his developer contacts and friends who have issues with the keyboard which is reinforcing has opinion, but he has to know it is also anecdata right now. Meanwhile, he’s setup Apple in a no-win situation: if the keyboard stays the same in succeeding models, Apple’s lost it; or, if the keyboard design changes in the next industrial design, Apple admitted its mistake even though Apple changes the industrial design, including keyboards, every 3 to 5 years.
You mean the trio who removed the SD card slot, good keyboard, MagSafe, USB-A, and the glowing Apple logo from MacBooks labeled "Pro"?
Good riddance!
The industrial designers don't make decisions like those.
Exactly, though I’m guessing they were involved with the design of the butterfly keyboard. But they don’t decide what I/O a laptop has. Furthermore what does a glowing Apple logo have to do with a “pro” device? If anything the glowing logo was mostly for hipsters to show off their MBA in coffee shops.
I think of it like this:
Schiller: determines the features of a device
Ive: determines the look and feel of a device, including assembly processes
Riccio: determines how parts are designed, materials and assembly processes
Federighi: determines the software and software look and feel
It’s a matrixed org, so everyone has a hand in a product, and you can’t pin down decisions on one person. Like the 2013 Mac Pro, that really has to be on Schiller’s shoulders as he’s the one that determined what features it had. That it made it to production with its “thermal box” and Apple didn’t do anything about it for 2 years is a team problem.
The hardware team never should have let it out door since they knew the roadmap and its limitations. The designers and Schiller forgot that less cabling, less boxes is a feature while the shipped machine is a mess of cables with external storage, no 1st party displays, etc.
These 3 designers are but 3 cogs in a 1000 plus person decision machine.
Ive (and for a while Alan Dye while Ive was designing doorknobs for the UFO) is in charge of software UI design, not Federighi.
They are inline with the software design team sure, but they are not designing the UI by themselves and telling the programmers how the UI should work. It really can’t work that way. Federighi’s org most certainly has there say. Heck, Schiller’s team most certainly has their say too. And, they have to cycle through multiple iterations, deal with edge cases, etc.
I love the current keyboard. Gruber wants everything to be like the Apple Extended Keyboard II (ie thick mushy keys) because whatever reasons. To each their own. Reliability is another issue, but I don't think the designers necessarily need to be held accountable here.
Also, you know literally nothing about the Mac Pro yet, so what would you "get started on"?
I put a link to a YouTube video in my previous post which you obviously didn't watch as that would answer your question. Since you are self-admittedly "fast asleep," wake yourself up a little, scroll back to my previous post, click the link, and watch. That video sums up many of my own feelings, which doesn't every really touch on the separate yet important issue of price. It makes zero sense to spend years and millions developing a product that you intend to sell at such a high price that most people cannot afford to buy it. It makes zero sense. And while we cannot say what that price will be, show me a tech media article that forecasts the new Mac Pro to sell for a great price targeted at your average Mac buyer. And there you have it.
As to your flippant treatment of what highly respected (even by Apple) John Gruber said, I obviously don't share your view (or that of Tht either). Trust me. It's not merely John Gruber and I who dislike that butterfly keyboard. And it is indeed the consumer who decides what is a product success or failure from Apple.
Consider this, my friend. Until the mid-2015 MacBook Pro, nobody -- and I mean NOBODY -- complained about the Apple MBP keyboards in terms of feel or reliability. The butterfly keyboard changed all that. Suddenly we had a fair number of negative articles being written. And that remains true even if some people like it and some people never have problems with it. The very fact that many people like John G. and myself hate the thing shows that the butterfly keyboard differs greatly from keyboards of the past which were never criticized at all. At the very least you must admit the butterfly keyboard is a divisive keyboard, and I argue that for that reason alone Apple should Think Different and alter the design to please the vast majority of people (no, not just fans of the late 2016 and new MBP) but the majority of Mac lovers so many fed up people who washed their hands of the MacBook line will be inspired to come back to it again.
I for one will not "upgrade" from my current mid-2015 MBP until I see something insanely great from Apple again in terms of notebook keyboards. And I don't care if you are happy to buy Macs with the butterfly keyboard. Your choices don't affect my buying choices. Your love for it doesn't magically make me love it. But I want an Apple Mac notebook that brings joy to pretty much everyone -- both you and me. That's the key difference. I want to be happy, and I want you to share in that happiness too. Honestly, that's how we all should think -- not merely about our own wishes but the wishes of others too. It's not just about me. It's not just about you. Is about The Rest of Us as a group. Apple could do better if they tried. Their industrial design team is failing in this regard and therefore I feel they are in need of a major shakeup.
Maybe new blood is what is needed. I'm disenchanted with the lack of movement in non-Pro and non-iLife Mac software, particularly key apps like Finder and System Preferences. SysPref is an embarrassment with how slow it is, even on fast Macs.
True, but what does that have to do with the industrial design team?
apple ][ said: Brainwashed and poorly educated minorities don't get a pass when spewing racial garbage. If it's not ok for a white person to make such a comment towards a POC, then it's not ok for a POC to make such a comment.
Brainwashed, to a point, isn't too far off. And, poorly educated to think they are educated. Unfortunately, they are actually teaching the opposite of the common sense you're speaking in the universities, under critical theory, intersectionality, etc. It is seeping in everywhere, not just politics. Many of the people spouting it are completely convinced they can't possibly do or say anything racist if they are a POC.
... Life (time) is limited, what you want to do for rest of your life may not be just Apple. ...
Absolutely. While these kinds of positions might be quite rewarding, they are also often high pressure. If the people don't burn out, they may well want to take a break or do something different or, maybe retire.
jdw said: "I consider these keyboards the worst products in Apple history. MacBooks should have the best keyboards in the industry; instead they’re the worst. They’re doing lasting harm to the reputation of the MacBook brand."
LASTING HARM, folks. Lasting harm. Ponder that.
Yeah, while I don't always agree with Gruber, I do here. I can't think of a worse, more highly visible... and so foundational, mess-up. Even if it weren't for the unreliability, there are so many people who just don't like typing on it, that it wasn't a good move to so radically alter probably the most core product of the Mac lineup. I think this will haunt them for many years.
tht said: Gruber also doesn’t get to decide success or failure for Apple. Their financials ultimately determines that.
The problem is that we don't know what the financials might have been if they hadn't changed the keyboard.
jdw said: Consider this, my friend. Until the mid-2015 MacBook Pro, nobody -- and I mean NOBODY -- complained about the Apple MBP keyboards in terms of feel or reliability. The butterfly keyboard changed all that. Suddenly we had a fair number of negative articles being written.
This is a key point. The previous keyboards, for the most part, were considered some of the best found on laptops. Most people loved them, and maybe a few were 'meh.' This isn't (as it is portrayed) disgruntled Apple fans or anti-Apple people trying to find something (unfounded) to criticize Apple for.
Heck, I had actually sold my quad-core iMac (temporarily hanging onto to MBA) in hopes of a new MBP I could upgrade to and consolidate to one machine that would serve my mobile and desktop needs. I thought we were actually there (after years of wanting that).
The good thing (for me) is that Apple shifted my thinking back to desktop, as I wouldn't touch one of the new laptops. (Note: my son has one, so it isn't like I don't have any experience with them.)
My wife also has a couple year old MBA, and we'd possibly upgrade (far earlier than we normally would) to get the better screen and T2 (for video encoding), but I don't think she's all that interested in the new keyboard either.
As I said above, we don't know how many Apple would have sold if not for this mess.
I love the current keyboard. Gruber wants everything to be like the Apple Extended Keyboard II (ie thick mushy keys) because whatever reasons. To each their own. Reliability is another issue, but I don't think the designers necessarily need to be held accountable here.
Also, you know literally nothing about the Mac Pro yet, so what would you "get started on"?
I put a link to a YouTube video in my previous post which you obviously didn't watch as that would answer your question. Since you are self-admittedly "fast asleep," wake yourself up a little, scroll back to my previous post, click the link, and watch. That video sums up many of my own feelings, which doesn't every really touch on the separate yet important issue of price. It makes zero sense to spend years and millions developing a product that you intend to sell at such a high price that most people cannot afford to buy it. It makes zero sense. And while we cannot say what that price will be, show me a tech media article that forecasts the new Mac Pro to sell for a great price targeted at your average Mac buyer. And there you have it.
As to your flippant treatment of what highly respected (even by Apple) John Gruber said, I obviously don't share your view (or that of Tht either). Trust me. It's not merely John Gruber and I who dislike that butterfly keyboard. And it is indeed the consumer who decides what is a product success or failure from Apple.
Consider this, my friend. Until the mid-2015 MacBook Pro, nobody -- and I mean NOBODY -- complained about the Apple MBP keyboards in terms of feel or reliability. The butterfly keyboard changed all that. Suddenly we had a fair number of negative articles being written. And that remains true even if some people like it and some people never have problems with it. The very fact that many people like John G. and myself hate the thing shows that the butterfly keyboard differs greatly from keyboards of the past which were never criticized at all. At the very least you must admit the butterfly keyboard is a divisive keyboard, and I argue that for that reason alone Apple should Think Different and alter the design to please the vast majority of people (no, not just fans of the late 2016 and new MBP) but the majority of Mac lovers so many fed up people who washed their hands of the MacBook line will be inspired to come back to it again.
I for one will not "upgrade" from my current mid-2015 MBP until I see something insanely great from Apple again in terms of notebook keyboards. And I don't care if you are happy to buy Macs with the butterfly keyboard. Your choices don't affect my buying choices. Your love for it doesn't magically make me love it. But I want an Apple Mac notebook that brings joy to pretty much everyone -- both you and me. That's the key difference. I want to be happy, and I want you to share in that happiness too. Honestly, that's how we all should think -- not merely about our own wishes but the wishes of others too. It's not just about me. It's not just about you. Is about The Rest of Us as a group. Apple could do better if they tried. Their industrial design team is failing in this regard and therefore I feel they are in need of a major shakeup.
I watched your YT link. It's all pure speculation at this point, as is your post and followup here. We literally know nothing about what it will be like and what it'll cost. So there's nothing to get someone "started on" unless you want to listen to them talk about something they don't know anything about. ¯\(°_o)/¯
My "flippant treatment"? I just pointed out Gruber has gone on at length with his love for the old-fashioned Apple Extended II keyboard styles, and how that not everyone would agree with that, including myself. I, for one, prefer the new keyboards over the 2015 and earlier models. That's it. Projecting much?
Comments
Also, you know literally nothing about the Mac Pro yet, so what would you "get started on"?
Gruber has his developer contacts and friends who have issues with the keyboard which is reinforcing has opinion, but he has to know it is also anecdata right now. Meanwhile, he’s setup Apple in a no-win situation: if the keyboard stays the same in succeeding models, Apple’s lost it; or, if the keyboard design changes in the next industrial design, Apple admitted its mistake even though Apple changes the industrial design, including keyboards, every 3 to 5 years.
As to your flippant treatment of what highly respected (even by Apple) John Gruber said, I obviously don't share your view (or that of Tht either). Trust me. It's not merely John Gruber and I who dislike that butterfly keyboard. And it is indeed the consumer who decides what is a product success or failure from Apple.
Consider this, my friend. Until the mid-2015 MacBook Pro, nobody -- and I mean NOBODY -- complained about the Apple MBP keyboards in terms of feel or reliability. The butterfly keyboard changed all that. Suddenly we had a fair number of negative articles being written. And that remains true even if some people like it and some people never have problems with it. The very fact that many people like John G. and myself hate the thing shows that the butterfly keyboard differs greatly from keyboards of the past which were never criticized at all. At the very least you must admit the butterfly keyboard is a divisive keyboard, and I argue that for that reason alone Apple should Think Different and alter the design to please the vast majority of people (no, not just fans of the late 2016 and new MBP) but the majority of Mac lovers so many fed up people who washed their hands of the MacBook line will be inspired to come back to it again.
I for one will not "upgrade" from my current mid-2015 MBP until I see something insanely great from Apple again in terms of notebook keyboards. And I don't care if you are happy to buy Macs with the butterfly keyboard. Your choices don't affect my buying choices. Your love for it doesn't magically make me love it. But I want an Apple Mac notebook that brings joy to pretty much everyone -- both you and me. That's the key difference. I want to be happy, and I want you to share in that happiness too. Honestly, that's how we all should think -- not merely about our own wishes but the wishes of others too. It's not just about me. It's not just about you. Is about The Rest of Us as a group. Apple could do better if they tried. Their industrial design team is failing in this regard and therefore I feel they are in need of a major shakeup.
Absolutely. While these kinds of positions might be quite rewarding, they are also often high pressure. If the people don't burn out, they may well want to take a break or do something different or, maybe retire.
Yeah, while I don't always agree with Gruber, I do here. I can't think of a worse, more highly visible... and so foundational, mess-up. Even if it weren't for the unreliability, there are so many people who just don't like typing on it, that it wasn't a good move to so radically alter probably the most core product of the Mac lineup. I think this will haunt them for many years.
The problem is that we don't know what the financials might have been if they hadn't changed the keyboard.
This is a key point. The previous keyboards, for the most part, were considered some of the best found on laptops. Most people loved them, and maybe a few were 'meh.' This isn't (as it is portrayed) disgruntled Apple fans or anti-Apple people trying to find something (unfounded) to criticize Apple for.
Heck, I had actually sold my quad-core iMac (temporarily hanging onto to MBA) in hopes of a new MBP I could upgrade to and consolidate to one machine that would serve my mobile and desktop needs. I thought we were actually there (after years of wanting that).
The good thing (for me) is that Apple shifted my thinking back to desktop, as I wouldn't touch one of the new laptops. (Note: my son has one, so it isn't like I don't have any experience with them.)
My wife also has a couple year old MBA, and we'd possibly upgrade (far earlier than we normally would) to get the better screen and T2 (for video encoding), but I don't think she's all that interested in the new keyboard either.
As I said above, we don't know how many Apple would have sold if not for this mess.
My "flippant treatment"? I just pointed out Gruber has gone on at length with his love for the old-fashioned Apple Extended II keyboard styles, and how that not everyone would agree with that, including myself. I, for one, prefer the new keyboards over the 2015 and earlier models. That's it. Projecting much?