Wow they sound really ‘caucasian’. Hopefully some POC can replace them.
Wow that sounds really “racist.”
if caucasians gave us Apples stellar design, I’m all for more of that.
Not to the exclusion of orher ethnicities, but “caucasians” should t lose out on replacing other caucasians just because their skin is too similar. That whole bit is unfair and its been played out. Next.
Your whole comment sounds really caucasian… getting passed over because of our skin is what’s really played out but I wldnt expect you to understand any of that.
Wow they sound really ‘caucasian’. Hopefully some POC can replace them.
Wow that sounds really “racist.”
No, that didn't just sound really racist, it was really racist. Unfortunately, it's quite popular these days, and some don't even realize it is, because it has supposedly been intellectually justified by certain institutions of higher learning.
Maybe new blood is what is needed. I'm disenchanted with the lack of movement in non-Pro and non-iLife Mac software, particularly key apps like Finder and System Preferences. SysPref is an embarrassment with how slow it is, even on fast Macs.
Hardware design isn't the same as software design, though I suppose some principals apply. IMO, iOS 7 (which Ive oversaw?) was one of the worst UI redesigns I've ever seen. They have kind of worked it back into being acceptable now, but if that's what happens when you let product designers get at a software UI, keep them far, far away!
But, I agree, in that the software UI design stuff has been getting horrific, and Apple rally needs some talent in that area (which is sad, as they kind of established the line in that area at one time).
nubus said: Well... it was the same team that added all of the above.
I do miss MagSafe and great keyboards. But most of all I'm tired of their cold alu-glass-thin minimalism where everything is glued. We used to have curves, glowing UFO power adapters, funky colors, textures, opacity, and amazing internal designs that didn't require for us to replace half the computer in order to fix one single key.
Hmm, yeah, I don't know. Will we look at the current designs in a couple decades and they seem the same as the colorful bubbly stuff does to us now? Maybe eventually. But, there are also somewhat timeless designs and styles that stick, and everything else just seems trendy by comparison. It's possible the current designs are a bit like that, though it doesn't have to be aluminum necessarily.
I am not cool enough to know what they are & can't find them teh interwebs.
Heh, I didn't get that last one, but AOC was priceless. That should be easy to find on the inter-webs or just known if you pay any attention to USA politics.
This doesn’t sound like news at all. This Jony Ive design group has been working for like 20 years together at least. People get old and retire. New people come in and work. That’s about as normal as it gets.
If anything, Apple needs more management turnover. The current Cook org is 7 years old now. Cool, Federighi (Kremenek underneath him), Schiller (Joswiak underneath him), Cue, Riccio, Ive (Dye and Howarth underneath him) have been essentially been in the same position for 7 years now. This are the people who are responsible Apple’s product line and services.
Several of those people have been in those positions for the longest ever, like Federighi whose coming pretty close or has served as SVP of software longer than Tevanian or Serlet. The whole org has been remarkably stable.
That 2012 reorganization also put design people inline with product development and engineering. Would be interesting to see how much this has changed over the past 7 years. Hope there is a book.
I have all due respect for them. They have designed some great products. HOWEVER IMO Apple’s designs are a bit stale. The iMac is essentially unchanged in ages. The Mac Mini is the same. The phone has gone through iterations but “thinner” isn’t really a groundbreaking design concept. I’m glad to see the team will be getting some new blood.
The industrial design is not just about making iPhone thinner. It's about how to place all the components and new technologies into the thinner and yet stronger form factor.
Tell me what are 10 groundbreaking designs in the last 10 years. Can you? I am interested to understand what do you mean by groundbreaking.
You mean the trio who removed the SD card slot, good keyboard, MagSafe, USB-A, and the glowing Apple logo from MacBooks labeled "Pro"?
Good riddance!
The industrial designers don't make decisions like those.
Exactly, though I’m guessing they were involved with the design of the butterfly keyboard. But they don’t decide what I/O a laptop has. Furthermore what does a glowing Apple logo have to do with a “pro” device? If anything the glowing logo was mostly for hipsters to show off their MBA in coffee shops.
I think of it like this:
Schiller: determines the features of a device
Ive: determines the look and feel of a device, including assembly processes
Riccio: determines how parts are designed, materials and assembly processes
Federighi: determines the software and software look and feel
It’s a matrixed org, so everyone has a hand in a product, and you can’t pin down decisions on one person. Like the 2013 Mac Pro, that really has to be on Schiller’s shoulders as he’s the one that determined what features it had. That it made it to production with its “thermal box” and Apple didn’t do anything about it for 2 years is a team problem.
The hardware team never should have let it out door since they knew the roadmap and its limitations. The designers and Schiller forgot that less cabling, less boxes is a feature while the shipped machine is a mess of cables with external storage, no 1st party displays, etc.
These 3 designers are but 3 cogs in a 1000 plus person decision machine.
Your whole comment sounds really caucasian… getting passed over because of our skin is what’s really played out but I wldnt expect you to understand any of that.
Your comment sounds like you could be a KKK member. A reverse KKK perhaps, but still no better than being in the actual KKK.
Your kind, and I don't mean your skin color, because I don't give a crap about your skin color, I mean your kind, as in the racist mindset kind will end up in the dustbins of history, along with other unsavory groups that preceeded them.
Your whole comment sounds really caucasian… getting passed over because of our skin is what’s really played out but I wldnt expect you to understand any of that.
Your comment sounds like you could be a KKK member. A reverse KKK perhaps, but still no better than being in the actual KKK.
Your kind, and I don't mean your skin color, because I don't give a crap about your skin color, I mean your kind, as in the racist mindset kind will end up in the dustbins of history, along with other unsavory groups that preceeded them.
I see plenty of successful and talented people of color in my industry, much more talented and successful than my white self. I can’t stand people that relish being a victim. Go get educated, or learn a trade and have a great life. Simple.
I see plenty of successful and talented people of color in my industry, much more talented and successful than my white self. I can’t stand people that relish being a victim. Go get educated, or learn a trade and have a great life. Simple.
I'm no victim, and I'm doing just fine, thank you very much. Only weak losers go around thinking that they're victims. People who have the victim mentality are pathetic. There are various political groups now who have bought into the victim mentality. They will be very sad soon when they lose yet again.
I will call out racist comments, as I apply the same standards to everybody.
Brainwashed and poorly educated minorities don't get a pass when spewing racial garbage. If it's not ok for a white person to make such a comment towards a POC, then it's not ok for a POC to make such a comment.
I see plenty of successful and talented people of color in my industry, much more talented and successful than my white self. I can’t stand people that relish being a victim. Go get educated, or learn a trade and have a great life. Simple.
I'm no victim, and I'm doing just fine, thank you very much. Only weak losers go around thinking that they're victims. People who have the victim mentality are pathetic. There are various political groups now who have bought into the victim mentality. They will be very sad soon when they lose yet again.
I will call out racist comments, as I apply the same standards to everybody.
Brainwashed and poorly educated minorities don't get a pass when spewing racial garbage. If it's not ok for a white person to make such a comment towards a POC, then it's not ok for a POC to make such a comment.
Yeah I know you aren’t, I was kind of referring to the person you were replying to. Adding to your point, so to speak.
judge the number of patent those good fellow's name listed - not surprise they might burned out or want to do something new. Life (time) is limited, what you want to do for rest of your life may not be just Apple. Besides, some of professionals experience once in a while of lost of passion - just like Steve Woz (i-Woz p. 274."it was like I had sort of reached my limit of being able to mentally, put my self through this king of design effort ...." it is a shocking feeling IMHO). What ever those chaps want to do, they have glory under their belt. Its time for 2nd act and enjoy what future brings (unknow is challenge and advanture ;-).
You mean the trio who removed the SD card slot, good keyboard, MagSafe, USB-A, and the glowing Apple logo from MacBooks labeled "Pro"?
Good riddance!
...But you’ve no idea who made those choices, so.
Johny Ive would have been responsible for either making those choices or encouraging those choices or approving them. Ultimately, it is Tim Cook who is supremely responsible, either directly by injecting his thinking into the design (highly unlikely) or indirectly by doing nothing to alter those changes (highly likely). And while one may argue that Tim Cook should not be engaged in the minutia of industrial design at Apple, Steve Jobs was actively engaged in that, and such care and hands-on engagement trickled down to us, the end user, in many wonderful ways. As such, I ultimately want to see Ive go. He's been in a position of great power at Apple for a very long time. And being in the same job all those years doesn't automatically mean he's becoming more savvy at what he does, but instead just shows that he is more entrenched in his job, doing things the way that suits him and the team under his watch. Let there be no mistake. Those in charge are responsible for the actions of the team under them.
And for those in this forum who constantly and often vehemently fight back against my pointed yet sound assertion that the butterfly keyboard (among other things) is "bad" on the MacBooks, consider what John Gruber had to say -- a man who is so pro-Apple that Apple constantly gives him sit-down interviews with top Apple executives:
"I consider these keyboards the worst products in Apple history. MacBooks should have the best keyboards in the industry; instead they’re the worst. They’re doing lasting harm to the reputation of the MacBook brand."
LASTING HARM, folks. Lasting harm. Ponder that. (And don't get me started on the forthcoming modular Mac Pro.)
I couldn't have stated the truth better myself. It's a travesty and the full responsibility of the Apple design team, many of whom I want to see go and go quickly. Good riddance to the three who left, regardless of what they were involved in. Apple Design needs a bigger shakeup than just the "loss" of three.
And highly likely the Input Design Lab worked with industrial design and other teams inside of hardware engineering. According to this 2015 interview with Phil Schiller, the industrial design and hardware engineering teams are “joined at the hip”.
So, those are the people that everyone can yell at for the butterfly key mechanisms. I don't think any of these people are on Jony's direct ID team, as far as I can tell from the lists I've found online but I'm not 100% sure. Definitely not any of the three departing his team.
Comments
i suddenly feel strangely compelled to play a text adventure ...
Unfortunately, it's quite popular these days, and some don't even realize it is, because it has supposedly been intellectually justified by certain institutions of higher learning.
Hardware design isn't the same as software design, though I suppose some principals apply. IMO, iOS 7 (which Ive oversaw?) was one of the worst UI redesigns I've ever seen. They have kind of worked it back into being acceptable now, but if that's what happens when you let product designers get at a software UI, keep them far, far away!
But, I agree, in that the software UI design stuff has been getting horrific, and Apple rally needs some talent in that area (which is sad, as they kind of established the line in that area at one time).
Heh, I didn't get that last one, but AOC was priceless. That should be easy to find on the inter-webs or just known if you pay any attention to USA politics.
If anything, Apple needs more management turnover. The current Cook org is 7 years old now. Cool, Federighi (Kremenek underneath him), Schiller (Joswiak underneath him), Cue, Riccio, Ive (Dye and Howarth underneath him) have been essentially been in the same position for 7 years now. This are the people who are responsible Apple’s product line and services.
Several of those people have been in those positions for the longest ever, like Federighi whose coming pretty close or has served as SVP of software longer than Tevanian or Serlet. The whole org has been remarkably stable.
That 2012 reorganization also put design people inline with product development and engineering. Would be interesting to see how much this has changed over the past 7 years. Hope there is a book.
Tell me what are 10 groundbreaking designs in the last 10 years. Can you? I am interested to understand what do you mean by groundbreaking.
Schiller: determines the features of a device
Ive: determines the look and feel of a device, including assembly processes
Riccio: determines how parts are designed, materials and assembly processes
Federighi: determines the software and software look and feel
It’s a matrixed org, so everyone has a hand in a product, and you can’t pin down decisions on one person. Like the 2013 Mac Pro, that really has to be on Schiller’s shoulders as he’s the one that determined what features it had. That it made it to production with its “thermal box” and Apple didn’t do anything about it for 2 years is a team problem.
The hardware team never should have let it out door since they knew the roadmap and its limitations. The designers and Schiller forgot that less cabling, less boxes is a feature while the shipped machine is a mess of cables with external storage, no 1st party displays, etc.
These 3 designers are but 3 cogs in a 1000 plus person decision machine.
Your kind, and I don't mean your skin color, because I don't give a crap about your skin color, I mean your kind, as in the racist mindset kind will end up in the dustbins of history, along with other unsavory groups that preceeded them.
I will call out racist comments, as I apply the same standards to everybody.
Brainwashed and poorly educated minorities don't get a pass when spewing racial garbage. If it's not ok for a white person to make such a comment towards a POC, then it's not ok for a POC to make such a comment.
But you may wish to re-read: I was referring to this forum, not to those who left Apple. :-)
And for those in this forum who constantly and often vehemently fight back against my pointed yet sound assertion that the butterfly keyboard (among other things) is "bad" on the MacBooks, consider what John Gruber had to say -- a man who is so pro-Apple that Apple constantly gives him sit-down interviews with top Apple executives:
https://daringfireball.net/linked/2019/03/27/strn-kyboard
"I consider these keyboards the worst products in Apple history. MacBooks should have the best keyboards in the industry; instead they’re the worst. They’re doing lasting harm to the reputation of the MacBook brand."
LASTING HARM, folks. Lasting harm. Ponder that. (And don't get me started on the forthcoming modular Mac Pro.)
I couldn't have stated the truth better myself. It's a travesty and the full responsibility of the Apple design team, many of whom I want to see go and go quickly. Good riddance to the three who left, regardless of what they were involved in. Apple Design needs a bigger shakeup than just the "loss" of three.
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20150402&CC=WO&NR=2015047612A2&KC=A2
Inventor(s): LEONG CRAIG C [US]; NIU JAMES J [US]; BROCK JOHN M [US]; HENDREN KEITH J [US]; WILSON JR THOMAS W [US]
I can't find Thomas Wilson Jr. anywhere on the web except for other Apple patents, but here are the rest:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/craig-leong-bb629b7/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-niu/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-brock-a0b559/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/keith-hendren-0951a72/
So, those are the people that everyone can yell at for the butterfly key mechanisms. I don't think any of these people are on Jony's direct ID team, as far as I can tell from the lists I've found online but I'm not 100% sure. Definitely not any of the three departing his team.