Tension over Trump's tariff tweet torpedoes $30B of Apple market cap

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  • Reply 41 of 68
    65026502 Posts: 380member
    hentaiboy said:
    6502 said:
    Appleish said:
    China will run the world by 2050 and there is nothing anyone can do to stop them.
    People said the same about Japan in the 80s, now they are nothing.
    The world’s third largest economy nothing?
    A distant 3rd and a shell of what they used to be. Besides cars, name the last product you bought made in Japan.
  • Reply 42 of 68
    xbitxbit Posts: 391member
    6502 said:
    A distant 3rd and a shell of what they used to be. Besides cars, name the last product you bought made in Japan.
    The iPhone uses Japanese parts.
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 43 of 68
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,831member
    dysamoria said:
    6502 said:

    How much has 'brilliant' Trump's strategy cost the US and its citizens so far? How much money will the government invest to fight this Trade War? Just intrigued because on this side of the pond we have some Trump fans who are busy pushing a crash-out Brexit so that we can do trade deals with him.
    It hasn't cost us anything, my life hasn't changed one bit. Meanwhile the systematic export of the means of production of most of our economy to China has cost us immensely. 
    YOUR life hasn’t changed? Good for you. Are you in the upper class? I’m in poverty and Trump’s administration is affecting me negatively. My companion has cancer and her ability to get medical treatment is being threatened daily by the whole “repeal ACA” craze of the Republican Party. I could go on, but you may not actually have empathy for fellow human beings, so why waste my time.
    Off topic but just wanted to say I understand what you're going through and how uncertainty just adds another layer of stress to an already difficult situation.

    I hope your companion is able to receive the needed treatment and make a full recovery.
    sdw2001n2itivguyGeorgeBMac
  • Reply 44 of 68
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,020member
    spice-boy said:
    sdw2001 said:
    spice-boy said:
    lkrupp said:
    China plays the long game.
    Trump plays the bluster game.

    My money is on China.
    Interesting that some would celebrate the U.S. capitulation to a totalitarian communist regime. Everything is made in China now. How much more can the West give up? How about Ford, GM, and Chrysler move assembly to China too? And Renault, BMW, Mercedes too? 
    China did not steal our jobs or factories it was the never-ending thirst of more profits by American manufacturing companies who packed up and left the USA for the cheapest labor in the world to a country with a government without any concerns for environmental protections or workers health. Why did this happen? Bottom line for big companies like Apple.

    We have in #45 a person who is motivated by greed and revenge along with some other major human flaws. We all have gotten super comfy with zero inflation these past 10 years, low and stagnant wages and to keep the US population pacified, cheap, cheap consumer goods.  This is more show-biz to entertain the reality tv fanbase and to distract us from what we are all losing, healthcare, the right to a decent public school education, protected national parks from strip mining, and the further oppression of the population which is really oppressed not those that look like #45

    I think there is evidence to suggest his approach, however unorthodox, is working.  He's not in love with tariffs for tariffs sake, I don't think.  He's clearly using them as leverage, something that is likely to be effective given our trade deficit (they need us for their products, badly).   
    Please explain to me what tariffs are, and why and when they are used and what the goal is ultimately? The global economy is a complex structure and simple to digest "fixes" are useless and possibly dangerous. Look at what is happening in the UK with Brexit, what a mess,  throwing the baby out with the bath water approach is naive. Nuance negotiations will get results not badly thought out, bullied demands. #45 has a history of failed businesses (all documented) but his bluster hides his insecurity and smart people (Putin) can see right through him and will few flattering comments win him over. 

    Explain what tariffs are?  Um, if you'e serious, I don't think we can effectively communicate with a common frame of reference.  You're welcome to your views, though I'm not sure I understand what UK's Brexit mess has to do with how we treat China on trade.  I would argue that naivety is better defined as ignoring 30 years of evidence as to the effect of "free trade" with China as well as Mexico on the NAFTA side.  I'm not going to touch the Putin thing or get into a political debate.  I will say that the "nuanced" approach (by which I suspect you mean fecklessness and rolling over by multiple administrations/Congresses) has proven to be disastrous in its real effect on our economy.  

    Again, I think you're point of view on the current President comes through pretty clear.  That's all well and good, and I'm not here to convince you otherwise.  I do take issue with dismissing the way he's conducting himself as just "bluster."  Like the Orange Man or not, he's shown he will back up his threats when needed (tariffs are an example). He understands leverage exceptionally well.  Seems to me he learned a lot from failing in business.  One general political observation on that point....those who seems too be more on the Left side of things never seem to understand the notion that we learn from failure.   
    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 45 of 68
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,020member
    genovelle said:
    lkrupp said:

    How much has 'brilliant' Trump's strategy cost the US and its citizens so far? How much money will the government invest to fight this Trade War? Just intrigued because on this side of the pond we have some Trump fans who are busy pushing a crash-out Brexit so that we can do trade deals with him.

    As one of the citizens of the U.S. you mention I am willing to take some hits if it means we get a better trade deal instead of the lopsided one we have now where China exports everything to us and we export nothing to them. Whatever they actually need from us, like technology and IP, they steal. 
    Trumps strategy is not smart. Look at North Korea. Much of our growth depends on our global reach. China makes stuff that in most cases are designed by our companies. We make a lions share of the profit from those items. Tariffs only hurt us. It’s really dumb!!!  We harm our tech companies, clothing brands you name it. We hurt our auto manufacturing suppliers and even farmers where we are paying billions to bail them out and they are still failing because it’s not enough. All to look strong and level a supposed trade deficit. Why do you thing economist stopped worrying about a trade deficit? It no longer matters. In the 70s and 80s that deficit was mostly China designed clone products being dumped on our market. Now, many of our successful US products exploits their low cost manufacturing expertise to build affordable but highly profitable products they we make the profit on. Sidelining those companies may well tell China to go back to their aggressive clone only business. Multinational US companies make as much as 75% of their earnings outside the US.  Tariffs here don’t effect the rest of the world. They also don’t hurt China as much as us. Most of the goods effected kill our companies profit or increase prices. For instance. Walmart brands are designed here, build in China. When the Tariffs started they announced price increases equal to the tariffs. We pay, not China. They get their full amount. Slower sales would hurt them but us more as we hold the profit. Do you believe they will ever remove the increase. Nope, not permanently. Maybe a big sale. 


    I see no upside to such a war. 

    Trumps strategy is not smart. Look at North Korea. 

    I don't know whether we will ultimately make a deal with them, but things certainly are better than they were 2 years ago.  His threats clearly brought Kim to the table.  


    Much of our growth depends on our global reach. China makes stuff that in most cases are designed by our companies. We make a lions share of the profit from those items.

    Who is "we?"  Sure, our companies profit, and that is good.  But what does it do to employment? If you embrace this approach as generally good for the country, I'd ask if it applies to NAFTA as well.  Does it make sense that the Big Three get to build factories in Mexico and then reap the profits while laying off Americans?  


    Tariffs here don’t effect the rest of the world. 

    Yes, they do.  That is what you're not getting.  Trump is using tariffs as leverage to combat other problems with the Chinese.  They steal our technology through espionage, hacking and forced technology transfers.  They dump billions in low-priced goods into our marketplace while creating barriers for our goods.  T

    They also don’t hurt China as much as us. Most of the goods effected kill our companies profit or increase prices. For instance. Walmart brands are designed here, build in China. When the Tariffs started they announced price increases equal to the tariffs. We pay, not China. They get their full amount. Slower sales would hurt them but us more as we hold the profit. Do you believe they will ever remove the increase. Nope, not permanently. Maybe a big sale. 

    Wrong.  Completely and demonstrably wrong. Tariffs harm them far more than they harm us.  Yes, prices go up.  Yes, they will retaliate.  But the fact is that we buy far more from them then they buy from us.   They have already seen their economic growth plummet since Trump started sticking it to them.  What's happened to our economy?  That's right...China's retaliation has had little to no impact.  And prices are not rising....inflation is well under control.   

    apple ][SpamSandwich
  • Reply 46 of 68
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,020member

    dysamoria said:
    6502 said:

    How much has 'brilliant' Trump's strategy cost the US and its citizens so far? How much money will the government invest to fight this Trade War? Just intrigued because on this side of the pond we have some Trump fans who are busy pushing a crash-out Brexit so that we can do trade deals with him.
    It hasn't cost us anything, my life hasn't changed one bit. Meanwhile the systematic export of the means of production of most of our economy to China has cost us immensely. 
    YOUR life hasn’t changed? Good for you. Are you in the upper class? I’m in poverty and Trump’s administration is affecting me negatively. My companion has cancer and her ability to get medical treatment is being threatened daily by the whole “repeal ACA” craze of the Republican Party. I could go on, but you may not actually have empathy for fellow human beings, so why waste my time.

    I'm sorry for what you're both going through, but the efforts to repeal the ACA and the changes made thus far have impacted her treatment precisely zero percent.  Once someone starts attacking others for "lacking empathy," the debate is typically over.  You might believe that the Trump administration is affecting your negatively, but you would then be asked to provide actual facts and data to demonstrate how.  Do you pay more in taxes?  If you are on assistance, has it been cut?  Have you lost your healthcare?  Is the job market better or worse?  How exactly are you affected negatively?  
    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 47 of 68
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,020member
    lmac said:
    I have serious concerns about the critical thinking skills of anyone who thinks Trump is being clever. There is no evidence in support of that.

    This is the kind of thing that is going to get the comments shut down.  It would seem they are allowing more debate on issues involving politics, which is something I would hope could continue.  You're entitled to your view of Trump.  Mine is different.  I don't know if the move is clever, but it seems to be effective in bringing them to the table.  It's leverage, which is one thing he unquestionably understands.  
    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 48 of 68
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    sdw2001 said:

    I don't know whether we will ultimately make a deal with them, but things certainly are better than they were 2 years ago.  His threats clearly brought Kim to the table.  

    I agree. When I first heard about Trump meeting Kim, I said that I'm not sure how it will turn out, but at least he is making an effort and willing to take a shot at solving it, which is far more than the previous strategy, which was basically ignoring the whole situation, and doing nothing.

    We'll see. If it ends up working out well, then great, if not, then we will have least tried and lost nothing in the process. We've already actually gained some things from it, such as the returns of decades old remains of US service members, and a few other hostages, so that alone was worth the effort taken so far.
    SpamSandwichsdw2001
  • Reply 49 of 68
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    And the market just closed, and AAPL is down about 1.5%. Like I stated earlier, not a big deal.

    In other words, just another normal day in the market and nothing out of the ordinary. :#

    I don't even care about the day to day anymore. Sometimes I don't even check on my AAPL stock for many days in a row. I care about the month to month and the year to year.
    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 50 of 68
    tyler82tyler82 Posts: 1,105member
    k2kw said:
    The economy is great.   Now's the time for a Trade War.    It's obvious China isn't helping with  North Korea.   Time for Tariffs on FoxxConn made iPhones.   They will regret not building the factory in Wisconsin.
    Having to work 15 jobs “low unemployment” does not a great economy make. 

    Health costs are are still the #1 cause of bankruptcy. Student loan debt is above $1 trillion. Economy is strong for billionaires mainly. 
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 51 of 68
    apple ][ said: I agree. When I first heard about Trump meeting Kim, I said that I'm not sure how it will turn out, but at least he is making an effort and willing to take a shot at solving it, which is far more than the previous strategy, which was basically ignoring the whole situation, and doing nothing.
    The previous strategy was to isolate North Korea and not treat it as a legitimate world power in order to weaken the regime. Trump's strategy of praising Kim, treating North Korea as a global equal with summits etc. hasn't achieved anything beyond giving Pyongyang a lot of valuable propaganda. North Korea is testing missiles again as well, so Trump choosing to throw away the traditional strategy and give North Korea the recognition they craved without requiring any type of commitment in return has resulted in a weaker position for the United States. 
  • Reply 52 of 68
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    apple ][ said: I agree. When I first heard about Trump meeting Kim, I said that I'm not sure how it will turn out, but at least he is making an effort and willing to take a shot at solving it, which is far more than the previous strategy, which was basically ignoring the whole situation, and doing nothing.
    The previous strategy was to isolate North Korea and not treat it as a legitimate world power in order to weaken the regime. Trump's strategy of praising Kim, treating North Korea as a global equal with summits etc. hasn't achieved anything beyond giving Pyongyang a lot of valuable propaganda. North Korea is testing missiles again as well, so Trump choosing to throw away the traditional strategy and give North Korea the recognition they craved without requiring any type of commitment in return has resulted in a weaker position for the United States. 
    The traditional strategy had been tried, unsuccessfully for decades, so I think that it's good to throw something away that has been a failure and try something new.

    I suppose that we'll know who was right and who was wrong and we'll see how the whole thing turns out in the future sometime..
    edited May 2019
  • Reply 53 of 68
    macxpressmacxpress Posts: 5,849member
    Making America Greatly Ashamed Again....is it 2020 yet?
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 54 of 68
    65026502 Posts: 380member
    apple ][ said:
    apple ][ said: I agree. When I first heard about Trump meeting Kim, I said that I'm not sure how it will turn out, but at least he is making an effort and willing to take a shot at solving it, which is far more than the previous strategy, which was basically ignoring the whole situation, and doing nothing.
    The previous strategy was to isolate North Korea and not treat it as a legitimate world power in order to weaken the regime. Trump's strategy of praising Kim, treating North Korea as a global equal with summits etc. hasn't achieved anything beyond giving Pyongyang a lot of valuable propaganda. North Korea is testing missiles again as well, so Trump choosing to throw away the traditional strategy and give North Korea the recognition they craved without requiring any type of commitment in return has resulted in a weaker position for the United States. 
    The traditional strategy had been tried, unsuccessfully for decades, so I think that it's good to throw something away that has been a failure and try something new.

    I suppose that we'll know who was right and who was wrong and we'll see how the whole thing turns out in the future sometime..
    Correct. NK became a nuclear power with the old strategy. Will the new strategy be any better? Only time will tell, as you said. As least we're talking unlike before.
    apple ][
  • Reply 55 of 68
    65026502 Posts: 380member
    macxpress said:
    Making America Greatly Ashamed Again....is it 2020 yet?
    Who's ashamed? I'm not. Maybe your ego is too fragile.
    apple ][
  • Reply 56 of 68
    stevenozstevenoz Posts: 315member
    spice-boy said:
    Lived in Manhattan for 38 years, I am well aware of the character of #45, I personally know people who have been stiffed by his company. He is considered a "street guy" here, always working a hustle...
    I've lived in Manhattan for almost 43 years. I've watched the wide-gamut cheating done by Donald... with disgust... for that whole time via the media.

    On tariffs: China won't pay the tariff tax... companies do. Since it's a tax, it goes to our government but... "it isn’t nearly enough to counter the sharp increases in the federal budget deficit that Trump has overseen... And the tariffs are seen as a drag on the American economy."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/29/us/politics/how-tariffs-work-china.html


    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 57 of 68
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    macxpress said:
    Making America Greatly Ashamed Again....is it 2020 yet?
    Speak for yourself. I'm more proud than ever and I believe that your viewpoint is in the minority and that will be definitively proven again, next year.
    6502
  • Reply 58 of 68
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    lkrupp said:
    China plays the long game.
    Trump plays the bluster game.

    My money is on China.
    Interesting that some would celebrate the U.S. capitulation to a totalitarian communist regime. Everything is made in China now. How much more can the West give up? How about Ford, GM, and Chrysler move assembly to China too? And Renault, BMW, Mercedes too? 
    It's not celebrating anything.  It's just reality.
    Auto production and most basic industry like steel moved out of the U.S. decades ago for a variety of reasons none of which have ever been addressed.   And bluster won't change that or fix it.
  • Reply 59 of 68
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    Appleish said:
    China will run the world by 2050 and there is nothing anyone can do to stop them.
    No, it'll happen before then.   At least displacing the U.S. as #1 economy.   Partly, as Jimmy Carter explained to Trump, because they don't waste their money on non-stop, decades long wars (or, I would add, a broken, but greedy ($3.5 trillion a year) healthcare system).   They invest it in their own future.
  • Reply 60 of 68
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    6502 said:

    China plays the long game.
    Trump plays the bluster game.

    My money is on China.
    True American patriot here. Evil foreign country over a president he doesn't like.
    It's called reality -- as opposed to false, deluded, USA chanting false patriotism.
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