Tension over Trump's tariff tweet torpedoes $30B of Apple market cap

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  • Reply 61 of 68
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    Just as an FYI: the manufacturing output of the United States today is 2X what it was in the 1980s. However, there are only 1/3 the number of jobs in manufacturing as there were in the 1980s. Automation is really the biggest issue for American workers, not China. Trump is just adding insult to injury by slapping tariffs on Chinese manufactured goods that U.S. consumers end up paying for. It doesn't cost China a dime when Trump uses a tariff. 
    I don't think its one or the other:   BOTH automation and foreign competition have displaced American industry and workers.   We tried protectionist tariffs back in the 80's when the migration out of the U.S. began but they failed.   Since then, Asian countries have surpassed us with better educated work forces better suited to the automated environment.   So, it is unlikely we will catch up any time soon -- especially since we have yet to come to grips with the factors that drove jobs out of the country in the first place.   And chest thumping and chants of "USA, USA, USA" don't change that.
  • Reply 62 of 68
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    6502 said:
    dysamoria said:

    6502 said:

    China plays the long game.
    Trump plays the bluster game.

    My money is on China.
    True American patriot here. Evil foreign country over a president he doesn't like.
    What’s unpatriotic about calling things as one sees them?
    Clearly he is rooting for China just to spite Trump. You don't need to be Captain Obvious to see that.
    Rooting for China to spite Trump?   LOL... NO!
    It's just rooting for the smart ones over the dumb ones.  China is playing Trump just as Putin did.   But, it's a game that Trump can't lose -- because he's only in it for himself.  You won't see too many Trump towers being shut down.

    Meanwhile, as the the U.S. blusters and bullies, the rest of the world begins to shift away and form their own financial systems and alliances outside of U.S. influence.  
  • Reply 63 of 68
    entropysentropys Posts: 4,213member
    13485 said:
    6502 said:

    How much has 'brilliant' Trump's strategy cost the US and its citizens so far? How much money will the government invest to fight this Trade War? Just intrigued because on this side of the pond we have some Trump fans who are busy pushing a crash-out Brexit so that we can do trade deals with him.
    It hasn't cost us anything, my life hasn't changed one bit. Meanwhile the systematic export of the means of production of most of our economy to China has cost us immensely. 
    BS. Soy and pork farmers have already lost billions and continue to lose, just for instance.
    The soybean market collapse over in China has more to do with the loss of pigs to swine fever. A quarter of the pig population has died.  If it was the tariffs the soy farmers in Australia would reap the benefit. But they are selling less soy to China too, as too many pigs are dead.
    edited May 2019
  • Reply 64 of 68
    spice-boyspice-boy Posts: 1,450member
    sdw2001 said:
    spice-boy said:
    sdw2001 said:
    spice-boy said:
    lkrupp said:
    China plays the long game.
    Trump plays the bluster game.

    My money is on China.
    Interesting that some would celebrate the U.S. capitulation to a totalitarian communist regime. Everything is made in China now. How much more can the West give up? How about Ford, GM, and Chrysler move assembly to China too? And Renault, BMW, Mercedes too? 
    China did not steal our jobs or factories it was the never-ending thirst of more profits by American manufacturing companies who packed up and left the USA for the cheapest labor in the world to a country with a government without any concerns for environmental protections or workers health. Why did this happen? Bottom line for big companies like Apple.

    We have in #45 a person who is motivated by greed and revenge along with some other major human flaws. We all have gotten super comfy with zero inflation these past 10 years, low and stagnant wages and to keep the US population pacified, cheap, cheap consumer goods.  This is more show-biz to entertain the reality tv fanbase and to distract us from what we are all losing, healthcare, the right to a decent public school education, protected national parks from strip mining, and the further oppression of the population which is really oppressed not those that look like #45

    I think there is evidence to suggest his approach, however unorthodox, is working.  He's not in love with tariffs for tariffs sake, I don't think.  He's clearly using them as leverage, something that is likely to be effective given our trade deficit (they need us for their products, badly).   
    Please explain to me what tariffs are, and why and when they are used and what the goal is ultimately? The global economy is a complex structure and simple to digest "fixes" are useless and possibly dangerous. Look at what is happening in the UK with Brexit, what a mess,  throwing the baby out with the bath water approach is naive. Nuance negotiations will get results not badly thought out, bullied demands. #45 has a history of failed businesses (all documented) but his bluster hides his insecurity and smart people (Putin) can see right through him and will few flattering comments win him over. 

    Explain what tariffs are?  Um, if you'e serious, I don't think we can effectively communicate with a common frame of reference.  You're welcome to your views, though I'm not sure I understand what UK's Brexit mess has to do with how we treat China on trade.  I would argue that naivety is better defined as ignoring 30 years of evidence as to the effect of "free trade" with China as well as Mexico on the NAFTA side.  I'm not going to touch the Putin thing or get into a political debate.  I will say that the "nuanced" approach (by which I suspect you mean fecklessness and rolling over by multiple administrations/Congresses) has proven to be disastrous in its real effect on our economy.  

    Again, I think you're point of view on the current President comes through pretty clear.  That's all well and good, and I'm not here to convince you otherwise.  I do take issue with dismissing the way he's conducting himself as just "bluster."  Like the Orange Man or not, he's shown he will back up his threats when needed (tariffs are an example). He understands leverage exceptionally well.  Seems to me he learned a lot from failing in business.  One general political observation on that point....those who seems too be more on the Left side of things never seem to understand the notion that we learn from failure.   
    To pick on your last comment about learning from our failures I have to say that is true of economic scams such as tax cuts, and trickle down economics. The working class fall for those failed policies time and time again regardless of any evidence of succee. So Americans see us as a united people others see us as "every person for themselves". Many Americans see themselves as religious and in theory believe that helping the poor and those in need is an important part of being a (fill in the faith). However in reality too many people are quick to blame those with little or no money, little or no power for the bigger problems in the world. How is it that the poor are creating wars, polluting our environment, exporting labor overseas? The answer is they are not but it is those in power that are doing so. So giving those in power a huge tax break will help the poor? The powerful have only used our system to enrich themselves and take more power. I wish I could convey what a scam #45 and his swamp creatures are trying to pull but I don't I think I could ever convince his faithful. Being a New Yorker I sadly admit he is one of ours, shamefully a product of a city with too much money and corruption. Look at the numbers of the 2016 election, how many New Yorkers voted for that scam artist. 
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 65 of 68
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    apple ][ said:
    And the market just closed, and AAPL is down about 1.5%. Like I stated earlier, not a big deal.

    In other words, just another normal day in the market and nothing out of the ordinary. :#

    I don't even care about the day to day anymore. Sometimes I don't even check on my AAPL stock for many days in a row. I care about the month to month and the year to year.
    That’s the right attitude. Day trader mentality turns investors into Las Vegas gamblers instead of stewards of personal  wealth and savings.

    The best time to be interested in what is happening is when there are major corrections, which make for buying opportunities.
  • Reply 66 of 68
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,020member
    tyler82 said:
    k2kw said:
    The economy is great.   Now's the time for a Trade War.    It's obvious China isn't helping with  North Korea.   Time for Tariffs on FoxxConn made iPhones.   They will regret not building the factory in Wisconsin.
    Having to work 15 jobs “low unemployment” does not a great economy make. 

    Health costs are are still the #1 cause of bankruptcy. Student loan debt is above $1 trillion. Economy is strong for billionaires mainly. 

    Unemployment isn't low because people are working multiple jobs.  Working multiple jobs doesn't count towards the employment % beyond the first job.  If you are arguing that the jobs created aren't good jobs, you've got a tough road to hoe.  Incomes are up, and there are more jobs available than people to fill the positions.  

    Heath costs:  Yes, that's true. Implicit in your statement, though, is support for Medicare for All.  That program would be an unmitigated disaster for our economy and healthcare system.  It will lead to rationing and reduced quality of care.  It will double taxes for most Americans and cost trillions per year.  Here's an article in the right wing (sarcasm) Washington Post about the CBO's recent analysis.

    Student loan debt is high mostly because of the government.  Grants, loans and subsidies have provided unlimited demand and insufficient supply, as well as a windfall for the colleges themselves.  Students take on unbelievable amounts of debt with no real vetting on their chances of paying it off.  Implicit (again) in your statement is support for some kind of government debt forgiveness.  This is supremely unfair, expensive and will be ineffective at preventing such a problem in the future.  Or, are we going to stick to the pipe dream of "free" college?  By the way, since I've paid off my loans and paid for my own Masters and post-grad school, will I be reimbursed?  I'm thinking the government should pay for the $100,000 in childcare costs I've paid over the last 15 years as well.  

    Economy is strong for billionaires mainly. 
    I just don't understand how a person can make this statement.  It's demonstrably false.  The biggest gains over the past two years have been for middle and lower income Americans, at least by %.  Economic growth is strong.  The stock market, in which many millions of Americas are invested, is doing great.  Inflation is low.  Incomes are rising.  Unemployment is at record lows, especially for lower income brackets.  African American unemployment is at the lowest rate since we started tracking it 1948.  Consumer confidence is high.  There really isn't a credible argument that the economy is anything other than extremely strong, and that it is benefiting everyone.  

    What is a problem is our massive debt and deficit, things that neither party or any branch of government seems to care about.  
    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 67 of 68
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,020member
    spice-boy said:
    To pick on your last comment about learning from our failures I have to say that is true of economic scams such as tax cuts, and trickle down economics. The working class fall for those failed policies time and time again regardless of any evidence of succee. So Americans see us as a united people others see us as "every person for themselves". Many Americans see themselves as religious and in theory believe that helping the poor and those in need is an important part of being a (fill in the faith). However in reality too many people are quick to blame those with little or no money, little or no power for the bigger problems in the world. How is it that the poor are creating wars, polluting our environment, exporting labor overseas? The answer is they are not but it is those in power that are doing so. So giving those in power a huge tax break will help the poor? The powerful have only used our system to enrich themselves and take more power. I wish I could convey what a scam #45 and his swamp creatures are trying to pull but I don't I think I could ever convince his faithful. Being a New Yorker I sadly admit he is one of ours, shamefully a product of a city with too much money and corruption. Look at the numbers of the 2016 election, how many New Yorkers voted for that scam artist. 

    To pick on your last comment about learning from our failures I have to say that is true of economic scams such as tax cuts, and trickle down economics.

    Tax cuts have led to more growth (and thereby more revenue) every time they have been implemented.  Look up the Kennedy, Reagan and Bush tax cuts.  Even the Trump cuts have seen more, not less revenue come in by this point.   Trickledown is a pejorative and nothing more.  It falsely assumes the cuts went just to the wealthy and corporations.  That is untrue.  

    The working class fall for those failed policies time and time again regardless of any evidence of succee. So Americans see us as a united people others see us as "every person for themselves".

    The evidence is tax cuts lead to growth, more employment and more government revenue.  I don't know what a "united people" is in relation to economics.  I assume you're talking about socialism.  

    Many Americans see themselves as religious and in theory believe that helping the poor and those in need is an important part of being a (fill in the faith). However in reality too many people are quick to blame those with little or no money, little or no power for the bigger problems in the world. 

    Ah, the appeal to faith to justify more government theft.  Do you honestly think that, say, Jesus Christ would support confiscatory levels of taxation?  

    How is it that the poor are creating wars, polluting our environment, exporting labor overseas? The answer is they are not but it is those in power that are doing so.

    I don't disagree with that.  Although poverty does lead to/coincide with pollution.  

    So giving those in power a huge tax break will help the poor? The powerful have only used our system to enrich themselves and take more power. 

    There are some false assumptions there.  First, those "in power" did get a tax cut, mostly.  But as a percentage of income, the middle and lower income brackets got much more.  Secondly, our corporate tax rates were out of whack with the rest of the world (including with the countries Bernie loves to cite).  Lower corporate taxes are important for a lot of reasons, though mostly because corporations don't really pay taxes.  People do.  

    I wish I could convey what a scam #45 and his swamp creatures are trying to pull but I don't I think I could ever convince his faithful. Being a New Yorker I sadly admit he is one of ours, shamefully a product of a city with too much money and corruption. Look at the numbers of the 2016 election, how many New Yorkers voted for that scam artist. 

    Again, you're welcome to your views on the President.  I'm not here to defend him or change your mind.  I will, however, point out the observable results of policies and decisions made by him... and all our leaders.  I will point out economic and historical realities.   

    edited May 2019 SpamSandwich
  • Reply 68 of 68
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    entropys said:
    13485 said:
    6502 said:

    How much has 'brilliant' Trump's strategy cost the US and its citizens so far? How much money will the government invest to fight this Trade War? Just intrigued because on this side of the pond we have some Trump fans who are busy pushing a crash-out Brexit so that we can do trade deals with him.
    It hasn't cost us anything, my life hasn't changed one bit. Meanwhile the systematic export of the means of production of most of our economy to China has cost us immensely. 
    BS. Soy and pork farmers have already lost billions and continue to lose, just for instance.
    The soybean market collapse over in China has more to do with the loss of pigs to swine fever. A quarter of the pig population has died.  If it was the tariffs the soy farmers in Australia would reap the benefit. But they are selling less soy to China too, as too many pigs are dead.
      China shifted to Brazil.   Then Trump used our taxes to reimburse the U.S. farmers for what he cost them.
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