Intel launches new processors. No one doubts they exist and have been launched. No one claims they only exist once they appear in a product. That's crazy.
Uhh Intel “launches” processors sometimes a full 6 months before they appear in any products, maybe longer. Happened a couple years ago with some chips they announced in January and you couldn’t even get intel’s own NUC with those H chipsets until August. I don’t see any reason to claim that they’ve actually “launched” in reality until you can buy them in a product.
The difference in that regard - and as mentioned above - is that when Huawei launches processors, they have already been in mass production for months.
Then why'd you use it as an example?
For clarity of the situation. Nothing more. Seperating the manufacturer of the silicon (and its launch) from the handset vendor (and its launch inside a phone).
As I mentioned, both chips were in production at the same time. The Kirin 980 was the first 7nm official launch. It is as simple as that. The iPhone X (2018 series) was the first phone to use a 7nm SoC.
The difference between the iPhone XS and Mate 20 Pro launches was around 4 weeks.
Relevant amount of 7nm business that is Apple's'
80%
"The world’s biggest electronics company and the world’s biggest foundry have their arms around each other, yet both may find the intimacy a bit uncomfortable. Apple will be risking the regular launch of new iPhones and iPads by counting on TSMC for production of follow-up processors to the A11 without a backup supplier. TSMC, on the other hand, will depend on Apple to fill up nearly 80 percent of its leading-edge 7nm capacity, entering production this year."
That follow up processor would be the A12. I'm guessing that Apple got first dibs.
You might want to check that chart out in the article.
"For TSMC, supporting Apple represents a huge capital investment and a commitment to ramp leading technology at a faster pace than the semiconductor industry is accustomed to, he added."
Apple is driving TMSC, not the rest of its clients.
And here is the next hole you jump into. The whole post is completely irrelevant to what you are disputing.
[1] I don’t know whether your attempts to prove this bullshit are hilarious or pathetic.
[2] Are you so fucking stupid you don’t realize Apple would also have internal development boards for testing/verification long before they release an iPhone? Or that they would have gone through several revisions before committing to mass production of the final version? Or do you think Huawei is the only company that does this?
[3] Given the fact Apple designs their own custom cores (while Huawei has to rely on ARM doing the work for them) it’s a certainty that Apple would be doing more in the verification stage than Huawei since they’re trying new designs that haven’t been tested by anyone else. Apple releasing an A12 and A12X also back this up - two new designs with significant internal differences.
[4 ]I know it’s painful to accept. Maybe Huawei will grow up one day and figure out how to design a processor on their own
Four paragraphs for posterity.
[1] How about none of them? Try going with 'factually correct'.
[2] Already debunked further up. A ridiculous counter.
[3] Totally irrelevant!
[4] Ah! Growing up one day! How apt! Does this mean you will stop calling people pathetic liars, trolls, idiots, bullshitters etc? Oh, perhaps not.
Here are some facts for you:
HiSilicon was designing chipsets long before Apple - bought in - the talent to design their own. It wasn't even long ago that Apple's GPU tech was also bought in.
HiSilicon has been working with TSMC for a very long time. Far longer than Apple.
HiSilicon has a vast range of chipsets. Far more than Apple.
So, with that pointed out, your 'growing up' claim looks like what it was. Completely hairbrained. Why set yourself up for this type of rebuttal?
I went easy on you. Further up this thread you said yet more hairbrained stuff (Huawei wouldn't have anything 'big' chipwise this year). I called you out on it but you chose not to counter. I asked you a direct question. You chose to not answer. Surprise. Surprise. However, you insisted with your insulting, immature comments and now here we are and, in the absence of a reply from you, I will answer my own question. Readers can then decide for themselves who is spouting 'bullshit'.
Here is the big chipset news from Huawei this year.
[1] I don’t know whether your attempts to prove this bullshit are hilarious or pathetic.
[2] Are you so fucking stupid you don’t realize Apple would also have internal development boards for testing/verification long before they release an iPhone? Or that they would have gone through several revisions before committing to mass production of the final version? Or do you think Huawei is the only company that does this?
[3] Given the fact Apple designs their own custom cores (while Huawei has to rely on ARM doing the work for them) it’s a certainty that Apple would be doing more in the verification stage than Huawei since they’re trying new designs that haven’t been tested by anyone else. Apple releasing an A12 and A12X also back this up - two new designs with significant internal differences.
[4 ]I know it’s painful to accept. Maybe Huawei will grow up one day and figure out how to design a processor on their own
Four paragraphs for posterity.
[1] How about none of them? Try going with 'factually correct'.
[2] Already debunked further up. A ridiculous counter.
[3] Totally irrelevant!
[4] Ah! Growing up one day! How apt! Does this mean you will stop calling people pathetic liars, trolls, idiots, bullshitters etc? Oh, perhaps not.
Here are some facts for you:
HiSilicon was designing chipsets long before Apple - bought in - the talent to design their own. It wasn't even long ago that Apple's GPU tech was also bought in.
HiSilicon has been working with TSMC for a very long time. Far longer than Apple.
HiSilicon has a vast range of chipsets. Far more than Apple.
So, with that pointed out, your 'growing up' claim looks like what it was. Completely hairbrained. Why set yourself up for this type of rebuttal?
I went easy on you. Further up this thread you said yet more hairbrained stuff (Huawei wouldn't have anything 'big' chipwise this year). I called you out on it but you chose not to counter. I asked you a direct question. You chose to not answer. Surprise. Surprise. However, you insisted with your insulting, immature comments and now here we are and, in the absence of a reply from you, I will answer my own question. Readers can then decide for themselves who is spouting 'bullshit'.
Here is the big chipset news from Huawei this year.
Should I ask you where the Apple equivalents of all this is?
What was it that you said? Hilarious? pathetic? Bullshit? ...
These screeds of yours don't do you any favors, but we aren't allowed to use the label that describes you here. I'd like to, but I'm not keen on a ban.
As a remedy to that, I recommend self reflection. It would do wonders for you id. You have become much too wrapped up with Huawei.
Me, I'm cognizant of Authoritarian Government supported companies when I see them. Pretty much describes Huawei and HiSilicon.
Meanwhile, Apple is a stockholder owned, tightly focused, consumer electronics company, so why would they be designing their own server or AI hardware for cloud use? Plenty of that exists open source, and via open market hardware.
On the other hand, for Huawei, all of those security systems, and millions of cameras overmatching the Chinese population, require lots of AI hardware for identification and tracking, and lots of storage system for that data. That's what I call one stop shopping for the Chinese Government Security Police and the PLA. On top of that, plenty of illiberal countries that will buy shedloads of the same. Profit!
[1] I don’t know whether your attempts to prove this bullshit are hilarious or pathetic.
[2] Are you so fucking stupid you don’t realize Apple would also have internal development boards for testing/verification long before they release an iPhone? Or that they would have gone through several revisions before committing to mass production of the final version? Or do you think Huawei is the only company that does this?
[3] Given the fact Apple designs their own custom cores (while Huawei has to rely on ARM doing the work for them) it’s a certainty that Apple would be doing more in the verification stage than Huawei since they’re trying new designs that haven’t been tested by anyone else. Apple releasing an A12 and A12X also back this up - two new designs with significant internal differences.
[4 ]I know it’s painful to accept. Maybe Huawei will grow up one day and figure out how to design a processor on their own
Four paragraphs for posterity.
[1] How about none of them? Try going with 'factually correct'.
[2] Already debunked further up. A ridiculous counter.
[3] Totally irrelevant!
[4] Ah! Growing up one day! How apt! Does this mean you will stop calling people pathetic liars, trolls, idiots, bullshitters etc? Oh, perhaps not.
Here are some facts for you:
HiSilicon was designing chipsets long before Apple - bought in - the talent to design their own. It wasn't even long ago that Apple's GPU tech was also bought in.
HiSilicon has been working with TSMC for a very long time. Far longer than Apple.
HiSilicon has a vast range of chipsets. Far more than Apple.
So, with that pointed out, your 'growing up' claim looks like what it was. Completely hairbrained. Why set yourself up for this type of rebuttal?
I went easy on you. Further up this thread you said yet more hairbrained stuff (Huawei wouldn't have anything 'big' chipwise this year). I called you out on it but you chose not to counter. I asked you a direct question. You chose to not answer. Surprise. Surprise. However, you insisted with your insulting, immature comments and now here we are and, in the absence of a reply from you, I will answer my own question. Readers can then decide for themselves who is spouting 'bullshit'.
Here is the big chipset news from Huawei this year.
Should I ask you where the Apple equivalents of all this is?
What was it that you said? Hilarious? pathetic? Bullshit? ...
These screeds of yours don't do you any favors, but we aren't allowed to use the label that describes you here. I'd like to, but I'm not keen on a ban.
As a remedy to that, I recommend self reflection. It would do wonders for you id. You have become much too wrapped up with Huawei.
Me, I'm cognizant of Authoritarian Government supported companies when I see them. Pretty much describes Huawei and HiSilicon.
Meanwhile, Apple is a stockholder owned, tightly focused, consumer electronics company, so why would they be designing their own server or AI hardware for cloud use? Plenty of that exists open source, and via open market hardware.
On the other hand, for Huawei, all of those security systems, and millions of cameras overmatching the Chinese population, require lots of AI hardware for identification and tracking, and lots of storage system for that data. That's what I call one stop shopping for the Chinese Government Security Police and the PLA. On top of that, plenty of illiberal countries that will buy shedloads of the same. Profit!
Look. All you need to do is live and let live. This is a - discussion forum - read by many who never post. Discuss. Is it so hard?
If people didn't label, insult, belittle etc when giving opinions, the rebuttals would be more measured (in fact mine normally are) in spite of the insults. My rebuttals are supported whenever factual information (as opposed to opinion) comes into play. And more often than not I don't even pick up on a lot of stuff. I let it go.
I am not 'wrapped up' in Huawei. I know Huawei. Just like I know Apple. I don't know Samsung, though. Hence nary a word from me on them. The difference is I can point to facts when challenged by people who make the kind of ill-informed comments above. Completely unnecessary comments of course. That means when readers filter out the crap personal insults, the meat that is left is good enough to stand on its own two feet. Then they can make their own take on what is said.
I just gave a classic example of this with the above claims. Using factual information and supporting links.
And to top things off, you threw in yet more political opinion. I have no idea why, when we are talking about - SoCs.
[1] I don’t know whether your attempts to prove this bullshit are hilarious or pathetic.
[2] Are you so fucking stupid you don’t realize Apple would also have internal development boards for testing/verification long before they release an iPhone? Or that they would have gone through several revisions before committing to mass production of the final version? Or do you think Huawei is the only company that does this?
[3] Given the fact Apple designs their own custom cores (while Huawei has to rely on ARM doing the work for them) it’s a certainty that Apple would be doing more in the verification stage than Huawei since they’re trying new designs that haven’t been tested by anyone else. Apple releasing an A12 and A12X also back this up - two new designs with significant internal differences.
[4 ]I know it’s painful to accept. Maybe Huawei will grow up one day and figure out how to design a processor on their own
Four paragraphs for posterity.
[1] How about none of them? Try going with 'factually correct'.
[2] Already debunked further up. A ridiculous counter.
[3] Totally irrelevant!
[4] Ah! Growing up one day! How apt! Does this mean you will stop calling people pathetic liars, trolls, idiots, bullshitters etc? Oh, perhaps not.
Here are some facts for you:
HiSilicon was designing chipsets long before Apple - bought in - the talent to design their own. It wasn't even long ago that Apple's GPU tech was also bought in.
HiSilicon has been working with TSMC for a very long time. Far longer than Apple.
HiSilicon has a vast range of chipsets. Far more than Apple.
So, with that pointed out, your 'growing up' claim looks like what it was. Completely hairbrained. Why set yourself up for this type of rebuttal?
I went easy on you. Further up this thread you said yet more hairbrained stuff (Huawei wouldn't have anything 'big' chipwise this year). I called you out on it but you chose not to counter. I asked you a direct question. You chose to not answer. Surprise. Surprise. However, you insisted with your insulting, immature comments and now here we are and, in the absence of a reply from you, I will answer my own question. Readers can then decide for themselves who is spouting 'bullshit'.
Here is the big chipset news from Huawei this year.
Should I ask you where the Apple equivalents of all this is?
What was it that you said? Hilarious? pathetic? Bullshit? ...
These screeds of yours don't do you any favors, but we aren't allowed to use the label that describes you here. I'd like to, but I'm not keen on a ban.
As a remedy to that, I recommend self reflection. It would do wonders for you id. You have become much too wrapped up with Huawei.
Me, I'm cognizant of Authoritarian Government supported companies when I see them. Pretty much describes Huawei and HiSilicon.
Meanwhile, Apple is a stockholder owned, tightly focused, consumer electronics company, so why would they be designing their own server or AI hardware for cloud use? Plenty of that exists open source, and via open market hardware.
On the other hand, for Huawei, all of those security systems, and millions of cameras overmatching the Chinese population, require lots of AI hardware for identification and tracking, and lots of storage system for that data. That's what I call one stop shopping for the Chinese Government Security Police and the PLA. On top of that, plenty of illiberal countries that will buy shedloads of the same. Profit!
Look. All you need to do is live and let live. This is a - discussion forum - read by many who never post. Discuss. Is it so hard?
If people didn't label, insult, belittle etc when giving opinions, the rebuttals would be more measured (in fact mine normally are) in spite of the insults. My rebuttals are supported whenever factual information (as opposed to opinion) comes into play. And more often than not I don't even pick up on a lot of stuff. I let it go.
I am not 'wrapped up' in Huawei. I know Huawei. Just like I know Apple. I don't know Samsung, though. Hence nary a word from me on them. The difference is I can point to facts when challenged by people who make the kind of ill-informed comments above. Completely unnecessary comments of course. That means when readers filter out the crap personal insults, the meat that is left is good enough to stand on its own two feet. Then they can make their own take on what is said.
I just gave a classic example of this with the above claims. Using factual information and supporting links.
And to top things off, you threw in yet more political opinion. I have no idea why, when we are talking about - SoCs.
Uhm, I added that political point for the simple reason that you keep throwing out Huawei's breadth of products, as it Huawei was the equivalent of a Western corporation; they aren't. Huawei certainly benefits from its close connection with the CCP, Chinese Government, PLA, and Security forces. I have posted many times data that supports my case, and you continually ignore it.
I would note that you don't actually know Apple very well. You notably make marketing arguments for Apple that would never occur, simply because Apple isn't interested in the idea of marketshare that you live and die for. You also have the tunnel vision of simply comparing hardware, ignoring Apples operating systems, software, and ecosystem, all reasons that people purchase Apple products.
You also make arguments that Apple is behind Huawei, et al, because it doesn't deliver features on the same timeline as they do. Yet you can't actually point to the case that Apple is losing marketshare for that, and certainly, not user share, which they keep gaining.
Ok, so I have blocked this troll long time ago, but it doesn’t really help when this thread is all full of responses to that pest. Is there a way to not see responses to trolls?
Huawei will make another “announcement” just before the next iPhone releases claiming they have the worlds first N7 processor in the world.
Nope.
Both the Kirin 970 and the Kirin 980 were formally presented at IFA 2017 and IFA 2018 respectively.
These are not 'announcements' but official launches of the new SoCs. The reason the launches are not tied to a product presentation is that Kirins end up in much more than typical mobile devices.
IFA is usually held in August. Logically, the SoC becomes official at launch and if there are firsts involved, they get mentioned.
This clearly irritates you for some reason as you continually jump on these stories. It shouldn't irritate you. It's how things work and there is no mystery involved.
Apple’s chip came out first, no matter what you want to believe. In addition, TSMC uses technology that Apple supplies for its chips that no one else gets.
What technology?
Apple has process technology that TSMC uses for Apple’s chips, and nobody else’s. Apple’s chips get first development iMessage, and the newest technology before huawei or Qualcomm, or anyone else for that matter. Apple’s chips are taped out first, and are put into production first.
Huawei will make another “announcement” just before the next iPhone releases claiming they have the worlds first N7 processor in the world.
Nope.
Both the Kirin 970 and the Kirin 980 were formally presented at IFA 2017 and IFA 2018 respectively.
These are not 'announcements' but official launches of the new SoCs. The reason the launches are not tied to a product presentation is that Kirins end up in much more than typical mobile devices.
IFA is usually held in August. Logically, the SoC becomes official at launch and if there are firsts involved, they get mentioned.
This clearly irritates you for some reason as you continually jump on these stories. It shouldn't irritate you. It's how things work and there is no mystery involved.
Apple’s chip came out first, no matter what you want to believe. In addition, TSMC uses technology that Apple supplies for its chips that no one else gets.
What technology?
Apple has process technology that TSMC uses for Apple’s chips, and nobody else’s. Apple’s chips get first development iMessage, and the newest technology before huawei or Qualcomm, or anyone else for that matter. Apple’s chips are taped out first, and are put into production first.
Can you support that with a link to something? I've not heard anything like that. The most I've heard is Apple making an up front payment to cover manufacturing. I've never heard of Apple providing process technology.
As I stated further up, both the Kirin 980 and A12 were - in parallel - production. That is why both companies could ship in quantity so close to each other. That is what all the rumours early last year also stated. If it hadn't been that way Huawei would not have been able to release when it did.
If you have something that says otherwise, it would be nice to see it.
[1] I don’t know whether your attempts to prove this bullshit are hilarious or pathetic.
[2] Are you so fucking stupid you don’t realize Apple would also have internal development boards for testing/verification long before they release an iPhone? Or that they would have gone through several revisions before committing to mass production of the final version? Or do you think Huawei is the only company that does this?
[3] Given the fact Apple designs their own custom cores (while Huawei has to rely on ARM doing the work for them) it’s a certainty that Apple would be doing more in the verification stage than Huawei since they’re trying new designs that haven’t been tested by anyone else. Apple releasing an A12 and A12X also back this up - two new designs with significant internal differences.
[4 ]I know it’s painful to accept. Maybe Huawei will grow up one day and figure out how to design a processor on their own
Four paragraphs for posterity.
[1] How about none of them? Try going with 'factually correct'.
[2] Already debunked further up. A ridiculous counter.
[3] Totally irrelevant!
[4] Ah! Growing up one day! How apt! Does this mean you will stop calling people pathetic liars, trolls, idiots, bullshitters etc? Oh, perhaps not.
Here are some facts for you:
HiSilicon was designing chipsets long before Apple - bought in - the talent to design their own. It wasn't even long ago that Apple's GPU tech was also bought in.
HiSilicon has been working with TSMC for a very long time. Far longer than Apple.
HiSilicon has a vast range of chipsets. Far more than Apple.
So, with that pointed out, your 'growing up' claim looks like what it was. Completely hairbrained. Why set yourself up for this type of rebuttal?
I went easy on you. Further up this thread you said yet more hairbrained stuff (Huawei wouldn't have anything 'big' chipwise this year). I called you out on it but you chose not to counter. I asked you a direct question. You chose to not answer. Surprise. Surprise. However, you insisted with your insulting, immature comments and now here we are and, in the absence of a reply from you, I will answer my own question. Readers can then decide for themselves who is spouting 'bullshit'.
Here is the big chipset news from Huawei this year.
Should I ask you where the Apple equivalents of all this is?
What was it that you said? Hilarious? pathetic? Bullshit? ...
These screeds of yours don't do you any favors, but we aren't allowed to use the label that describes you here. I'd like to, but I'm not keen on a ban.
As a remedy to that, I recommend self reflection. It would do wonders for you id. You have become much too wrapped up with Huawei.
Me, I'm cognizant of Authoritarian Government supported companies when I see them. Pretty much describes Huawei and HiSilicon.
Meanwhile, Apple is a stockholder owned, tightly focused, consumer electronics company, so why would they be designing their own server or AI hardware for cloud use? Plenty of that exists open source, and via open market hardware.
On the other hand, for Huawei, all of those security systems, and millions of cameras overmatching the Chinese population, require lots of AI hardware for identification and tracking, and lots of storage system for that data. That's what I call one stop shopping for the Chinese Government Security Police and the PLA. On top of that, plenty of illiberal countries that will buy shedloads of the same. Profit!
Look. All you need to do is live and let live. This is a - discussion forum - read by many who never post. Discuss. Is it so hard?
If people didn't label, insult, belittle etc when giving opinions, the rebuttals would be more measured (in fact mine normally are) in spite of the insults. My rebuttals are supported whenever factual information (as opposed to opinion) comes into play. And more often than not I don't even pick up on a lot of stuff. I let it go.
I am not 'wrapped up' in Huawei. I know Huawei. Just like I know Apple. I don't know Samsung, though. Hence nary a word from me on them. The difference is I can point to facts when challenged by people who make the kind of ill-informed comments above. Completely unnecessary comments of course. That means when readers filter out the crap personal insults, the meat that is left is good enough to stand on its own two feet. Then they can make their own take on what is said.
I just gave a classic example of this with the above claims. Using factual information and supporting links.
And to top things off, you threw in yet more political opinion. I have no idea why, when we are talking about - SoCs.
Uhm, I added that political point for the simple reason that you keep throwing out Huawei's breadth of products, as it Huawei was the equivalent of a Western corporation; they aren't. Huawei certainly benefits from its close connection with the CCP, Chinese Government, PLA, and Security forces. I have posted many times data that supports my case, and you continually ignore it.
I would note that you don't actually know Apple very well. You notably make marketing arguments for Apple that would never occur, simply because Apple isn't interested in the idea of marketshare that you live and die for. You also have the tunnel vision of simply comparing hardware, ignoring Apples operating systems, software, and ecosystem, all reasons that people purchase Apple products.
You also make arguments that Apple is behind Huawei, et al, because it doesn't deliver features on the same timeline as they do. Yet you can't actually point to the case that Apple is losing marketshare for that, and certainly, not user share, which they keep gaining.
Forget the politics here. Huawei is no different to Samsung in the 'breadth' of what it does.
Here I didn't even mention the breadth of Huawei's activities. I took Eric's claim head on regarding chipsets. I provided support to back it up. If he hadn't waded in with the insults I would have left my question open.
Yes, there are times when talking about Apple or Huawei that politics overlaps into the debate. Like with the tariffs, protectionism and whatnot but here the discussion was on TSMC and chipsets. No need to go political.
In fact, there are Huawei related points in the article itself that I didn't even pick up on. I let them go. For example:
"TSMC's manufacturing capacity for its 7-nanometer production process will likely be pushed to the limit for this year's models, and could possibly freeze out TSMC's lines for its other clients entirely for the quarter"
There are other rumours placing Huawei first with TSMC second generation 7nm process but I didn't go into that.
But then look what happened with the very first post. Sigh.
As for not knowing Apple. That's your opinion. I have actually been pretty spot on with everything I have written on the subject and with Huawei too.
Huawei will make another “announcement” just before the next iPhone releases claiming they have the worlds first N7 processor in the world.
Nope.
Both the Kirin 970 and the Kirin 980 were formally presented at IFA 2017 and IFA 2018 respectively.
These are not 'announcements' but official launches of the new SoCs. The reason the launches are not tied to a product presentation is that Kirins end up in much more than typical mobile devices.
IFA is usually held in August. Logically, the SoC becomes official at launch and if there are firsts involved, they get mentioned.
This clearly irritates you for some reason as you continually jump on these stories. It shouldn't irritate you. It's how things work and there is no mystery involved.
Apple’s chip came out first, no matter what you want to believe. In addition, TSMC uses technology that AYou pple supplies for its chips that no one else gets.
What technology?
Apple has process technology that TSMC uses for Apple’s chips, and nobody else’s. Apple’s chips get first development iMessage, and the newest technology before huawei or Qualcomm, or anyone else for that matter. Apple’s chips are taped out first, and are put into production first.
Can you support that with a link to something? I've not heard anything like that. The most I've heard is Apple making an up front payment to cover manufacturing. I've never heard of Apple providing process technology.
As I stated further up, both the Kirin 980 and A12 were - in parallel - production. That is why both companies could ship in quantity so close to each other. That is what all the rumours early last year also stated. If it hadn't been that way Huawei would not have been able to release when it did.
If you have something that says otherwise, it would be nice to see it.
You keep posting that "in parallel" but you have provided no evidence of that, and as a fact Apple needed some 20 to 30 million SOC's or so just to meet the early production requirements for initial release. I don't think that they would have given up their place in line when they had huge requirements for the A12.
Apple sold 46 million iPhones, including iPhone 8 / 8 Plus preorders, with a weeks worth of retail sales of the iPhone 8, and 8 Plus included in the quarter.
Apple sold 77 million iPhones in the Christmas quarter, driven by the iPhone X in the complete quarter following the release in September, and 70% of those had A12's in them; that's 53 million A12's just for that quarter.
Your story just doesn't hold water. There isn't a chance that Apple allowed TMSC to split production until after Apple had what it needed to meet those Christmas Quarter requirements. That means that Huawei had to wait for its initial production of the 970, which accounts for its early announcement and later delivery after Apple started shipping iPhones. What you saw almost certainly weren't production 970's.
Now, you might surmise that Huawei got the first production prior to Apple, but then why would they delay the release of the P20 series for months? The P20 was by all measures, Huawei's first true flagship, and would have dominated the Android OS device market for many more additional months.
Ok, so I have blocked this troll long time ago, but it doesn’t really help when this thread is all full of responses to that pest. Is there a way to not see responses to trolls?
Agreed. I blocked then unlocked to counter his outright lies. No point - once a liar always a liar.
Back to the block list, troll. And I also encourage others to do the same.
Huawei will make another “announcement” just before the next iPhone releases claiming they have the worlds first N7 processor in the world.
Nope.
Both the Kirin 970 and the Kirin 980 were formally presented at IFA 2017 and IFA 2018 respectively.
These are not 'announcements' but official launches of the new SoCs. The reason the launches are not tied to a product presentation is that Kirins end up in much more than typical mobile devices.
IFA is usually held in August. Logically, the SoC becomes official at launch and if there are firsts involved, they get mentioned.
This clearly irritates you for some reason as you continually jump on these stories. It shouldn't irritate you. It's how things work and there is no mystery involved.
Apple’s chip came out first, no matter what you want to believe. In addition, TSMC uses technology that AYou pple supplies for its chips that no one else gets.
What technology?
Apple has process technology that TSMC uses for Apple’s chips, and nobody else’s. Apple’s chips get first development iMessage, and the newest technology before huawei or Qualcomm, or anyone else for that matter. Apple’s chips are taped out first, and are put into production first.
Can you support that with a link to something? I've not heard anything like that. The most I've heard is Apple making an up front payment to cover manufacturing. I've never heard of Apple providing process technology.
As I stated further up, both the Kirin 980 and A12 were - in parallel - production. That is why both companies could ship in quantity so close to each other. That is what all the rumours early last year also stated. If it hadn't been that way Huawei would not have been able to release when it did.
If you have something that says otherwise, it would be nice to see it.
You keep posting that "in parallel" but you have provided no evidence of that, and as a fact Apple needed some 20 to 30 million SOC's or so just to meet the early production requirements for initial release. I don't think that they would have given up their place in line when they had huge requirements for the A12.
Apple sold 46 million iPhones, including iPhone 8 / 8 Plus preorders, with a weeks worth of retail sales of the iPhone 8, and 8 Plus included in the quarter.
Apple sold 77 million iPhones in the Christmas quarter, driven by the iPhone X in the complete quarter following the release in September, and 70% of those had A12's in them; that's 53 million A12's just for that quarter.
Your story just doesn't hold water. There isn't a chance that Apple allowed TMSC to split production until after Apple had what it needed to meet those Christmas Quarter requirements. That means that Huawei had to wait for its initial production of the 970, which accounts for its early announcement and later delivery after Apple started shipping iPhones. What you saw almost certainly weren't production 970's.
Now, you might surmise that Huawei got the first production prior to Apple, but then why would they delay the release of the P20 series for months? The P20 was by all measures, Huawei's first true flagship, and would have dominated the Android OS device market for many more additional months.
It's simple. To launch you need inventory. Lots of inventory. The Kirin 980 was said to be in mass production in Q2 2018:
There were lots of rumours in Q2 and Q3 on this subject.
For Huawei and Apple to ship the SoCs virtually at the same time, there had to be inventory. Lots of it.
If production started in Q2, by the end of August there is no way what was presented was non-production. As I said and now repeat, development boards were demoing the processor at IFA.
I am repeating myself as all this has already been explained further up!
Apple has zero bearing on what TSMC offers Huawei. Apple is also not in a position to 'not allow' anything.
Both Apple and Huawei have contracts with TSMC. Once signed, it is up to TSMC to deliver in line with the contract terms. That's it.
Clearly Huawei and Apple were privileged in getting the first 7nm contracts.
As for launch windows, each company sets a release date in line with their own objectives. The SoC is not the sole reason to set a launch date. I mentioned this further up too.
If you want more, there were rumours that the P20 Series was selling so well that the company chose not to release in September so as to squeeze as much as possible out of that series.
Wow talk about a thread that could have been an interesting discussion about A13 that turns into a bitch fest. Really guys this is sad.
Avon B7 is a Huawei fanboy, and it is well documented by his posts here on AI. He has set up his Huawei kiosk with the express purpose of evangelizing Huawei. That is unacceptable to me, and I expect others, who come here for unbiased technical information. I guess this is my "get off the lawn" moment.
"The Chinese Commercial Timesclaims TSMC will move to a 7-nanometer extreme ultraviolet lithography (EUV) process that has the potential for more accurate chip production and more intricate designs, named "N7+." HiSilicon's Kirin 985 chips will be the first to use N7+ in its production, but the Apple-designed "A13" will be the next to go into manufacturing at the firm.
For the A-series chip, TSMC will be bringing out an alternate form of its N7+ process which it calls "N7 Pro." It is unclear exactly what the difference is between N7 Pro and N7+, but it will reportedly be ready for volume production late in the second quarter, in time for A-series production for the fall iPhone refresh. "
Would you have posted that link if it wasn't for the Kirin 985 being the first production at N7+ ?
I doubt it.
Should you care that the A13 will be produced at the slightly different N7 Pro after the Kirin 985 is produced?
Probably not, but it does appear to back up Mel's statement that Apple has its own process technology at TMSC.
"The Chinese Commercial Timesclaims TSMC will move to a 7-nanometer extreme ultraviolet lithography (EUV) process that has the potential for more accurate chip production and more intricate designs, named "N7+." HiSilicon's Kirin 985 chips will be the first to use N7+ in its production, but the Apple-designed "A13" will be the next to go into manufacturing at the firm.
For the A-series chip, TSMC will be bringing out an alternate form of its N7+ process which it calls "N7 Pro." It is unclear exactly what the difference is between N7 Pro and N7+, but it will reportedly be ready for volume production late in the second quarter, in time for A-series production for the fall iPhone refresh. "
Would you have posted that link if it wasn't for the Kirin 985 being the first production at N7+ ?
I doubt it.
Should you care that the A13 will be produced at the slightly different N7 Pro after the Kirin 985 is produced?
Probably not, but it does appear to back up Mel's statement that Apple has its own process technology at TMSC.
I posted the first link that came to mind that included a reference to the transition to 6nm.
"The Chinese Commercial Timesclaims TSMC will move to a 7-nanometer extreme ultraviolet lithography (EUV) process that has the potential for more accurate chip production and more intricate designs, named "N7+." HiSilicon's Kirin 985 chips will be the first to use N7+ in its production, but the Apple-designed "A13" will be the next to go into manufacturing at the firm.
For the A-series chip, TSMC will be bringing out an alternate form of its N7+ process which it calls "N7 Pro." It is unclear exactly what the difference is between N7 Pro and N7+, but it will reportedly be ready for volume production late in the second quarter, in time for A-series production for the fall iPhone refresh. "
Would you have posted that link if it wasn't for the Kirin 985 being the first production at N7+ ?
I doubt it.
Should you care that the A13 will be produced at the slightly different N7 Pro after the Kirin 985 is produced?
Probably not, but it does appear to back up Mel's statement that Apple has its own process technology at TMSC.
I posted the first link that came to mind that included a reference to the transition to 6nm.
I have seen nothing to back up Mel's claim.
It isn't difficult to see that the Kirin 985 is first to use the N7+ process, but that Apple has lead off with a slightly different, and likely improved process, for the A13 immediately after 7N+, certainly raises questions about how close TMSC and Apple are working and what IP Apple has offered TMSC.
Huawei will make another “announcement” just before the next iPhone releases claiming they have the worlds first N7 processor in the world.
Nope.
Both the Kirin 970 and the Kirin 980 were formally presented at IFA 2017 and IFA 2018 respectively.
These are not 'announcements' but official launches of the new SoCs. The reason the launches are not tied to a product presentation is that Kirins end up in much more than typical mobile devices.
IFA is usually held in August. Logically, the SoC becomes official at launch and if there are firsts involved, they get mentioned.
This clearly irritates you for some reason as you continually jump on these stories. It shouldn't irritate you. It's how things work and there is no mystery involved.
Apple’s chip came out first, no matter what you want to believe. In addition, TSMC uses technology that Apple supplies for its chips that no one else gets.
What technology?
Apple has process technology that TSMC uses for Apple’s chips, and nobody else’s. Apple’s chips get first development iMessage, and the newest technology before huawei or Qualcomm, or anyone else for that matter. Apple’s chips are taped out first, and are put into production first.
The fact that Apple is using the 7N Pro process at TMSC over the just launched 7N+ is a pretty good indicator that Apple's process is both different and improved. Apple almost certainly has provided TMSC with some process equipment that will be exclusive to the 7N Pro line.
Comments
[1] How about none of them? Try going with 'factually correct'.
[2] Already debunked further up. A ridiculous counter.
[3] Totally irrelevant!
[4] Ah! Growing up one day! How apt! Does this mean you will stop calling people pathetic liars, trolls, idiots, bullshitters etc? Oh, perhaps not.
Here are some facts for you:
HiSilicon was designing chipsets long before Apple - bought in - the talent to design their own. It wasn't even long ago that Apple's GPU tech was also bought in.
HiSilicon has been working with TSMC for a very long time. Far longer than Apple.
HiSilicon has a vast range of chipsets. Far more than Apple.
So, with that pointed out, your 'growing up' claim looks like what it was. Completely hairbrained. Why set yourself up for this type of rebuttal?
I went easy on you. Further up this thread you said yet more hairbrained stuff (Huawei wouldn't have anything 'big' chipwise this year). I called you out on it but you chose not to counter. I asked you a direct question. You chose to not answer. Surprise. Surprise. However, you insisted with your insulting, immature comments and now here we are and, in the absence of a reply from you, I will answer my own question. Readers can then decide for themselves who is spouting 'bullshit'.
Here is the big chipset news from Huawei this year.
Tiangang:
https://syncedreview.com/2019/01/24/world-first-huawei-unveils-groundbreaking-5g-chipset-tiangang/
Ascend:
https://blog.huawei.com/2019/02/05/activating-ai-power-with-the-ascend-chipset/
Kunpeng:
https://www.scmp.com/tech/big-tech/article/2180942/huawei-unveils-cutting-edge-chips-and-servers-aimed-handling-big-data
Cloud Engine:
https://interestingengineering.com/how-ai-and-huawei-are-transforming-the-data-center
Should I ask you where the Apple equivalents of all this is?
What was it that you said? Hilarious? pathetic? Bullshit? ...
As a remedy to that, I recommend self reflection. It would do wonders for you id. You have become much too wrapped up with Huawei.
Me, I'm cognizant of Authoritarian Government supported companies when I see them. Pretty much describes Huawei and HiSilicon.
Meanwhile, Apple is a stockholder owned, tightly focused, consumer electronics company, so why would they be designing their own server or AI hardware for cloud use? Plenty of that exists open source, and via open market hardware.
On the other hand, for Huawei, all of those security systems, and millions of cameras overmatching the Chinese population, require lots of AI hardware for identification and tracking, and lots of storage system for that data. That's what I call one stop shopping for the Chinese Government Security Police and the PLA. On top of that, plenty of illiberal countries that will buy shedloads of the same. Profit!
If people didn't label, insult, belittle etc when giving opinions, the rebuttals would be more measured (in fact mine normally are) in spite of the insults. My rebuttals are supported whenever factual information (as opposed to opinion) comes into play. And more often than not I don't even pick up on a lot of stuff. I let it go.
I am not 'wrapped up' in Huawei. I know Huawei. Just like I know Apple. I don't know Samsung, though. Hence nary a word from me on them. The difference is I can point to facts when challenged by people who make the kind of ill-informed comments above. Completely unnecessary comments of course. That means when readers filter out the crap personal insults, the meat that is left is good enough to stand on its own two feet. Then they can make their own take on what is said.
I just gave a classic example of this with the above claims. Using factual information and supporting links.
And to top things off, you threw in yet more political opinion. I have no idea why, when we are talking about - SoCs.
I would note that you don't actually know Apple very well. You notably make marketing arguments for Apple that would never occur, simply because Apple isn't interested in the idea of marketshare that you live and die for. You also have the tunnel vision of simply comparing hardware, ignoring Apples operating systems, software, and ecosystem, all reasons that people purchase Apple products.
You also make arguments that Apple is behind Huawei, et al, because it doesn't deliver features on the same timeline as they do. Yet you can't actually point to the case that Apple is losing marketshare for that, and certainly, not user share, which they keep gaining.
Is there a way to not see responses to trolls?
As I stated further up, both the Kirin 980 and A12 were - in parallel - production. That is why both companies could ship in quantity so close to each other. That is what all the rumours early last year also stated. If it hadn't been that way Huawei would not have been able to release when it did.
If you have something that says otherwise, it would be nice to see it.
Here I didn't even mention the breadth of Huawei's activities. I took Eric's claim head on regarding chipsets. I provided support to back it up. If he hadn't waded in with the insults I would have left my question open.
Yes, there are times when talking about Apple or Huawei that politics overlaps into the debate. Like with the tariffs, protectionism and whatnot but here the discussion was on TSMC and chipsets. No need to go political.
In fact, there are Huawei related points in the article itself that I didn't even pick up on. I let them go. For example:
"TSMC's manufacturing capacity for its 7-nanometer production process will likely be pushed to the limit for this year's models, and could possibly freeze out TSMC's lines for its other clients entirely for the quarter"
There are other rumours placing Huawei first with TSMC second generation 7nm process but I didn't go into that.
But then look what happened with the very first post. Sigh.
As for not knowing Apple. That's your opinion. I have actually been pretty spot on with everything I have written on the subject and with Huawei too.
how many iPhones sold in Q4 2017
Apple sold 46 million iPhones, including iPhone 8 / 8 Plus preorders, with a weeks worth of retail sales of the iPhone 8, and 8 Plus included in the quarter.
Apple sold 77 million iPhones in the Christmas quarter, driven by the iPhone X in the complete quarter following the release in September, and 70% of those had A12's in them; that's 53 million A12's just for that quarter.
Your story just doesn't hold water. There isn't a chance that Apple allowed TMSC to split production until after Apple had what it needed to meet those Christmas Quarter requirements. That means that Huawei had to wait for its initial production of the 970, which accounts for its early announcement and later delivery after Apple started shipping iPhones. What you saw almost certainly weren't production 970's.
Now, you might surmise that Huawei got the first production prior to Apple, but then why would they delay the release of the P20 series for months? The P20 was by all measures, Huawei's first true flagship, and would have dominated the Android OS device market for many more additional months.
Agreed. I blocked then unlocked to counter his outright lies. No point - once a liar always a liar.
Back to the block list, troll. And I also encourage others to do the same.
https://www.gizchina.com/2018/04/07/huawei-to-commence-mass-production-of-7nm-process-kirin-980-this-quarter/
There were lots of rumours in Q2 and Q3 on this subject.
For Huawei and Apple to ship the SoCs virtually at the same time, there had to be inventory. Lots of it.
If production started in Q2, by the end of August there is no way what was presented was non-production. As I said and now repeat, development boards were demoing the processor at IFA.
I am repeating myself as all this has already been explained further up!
Apple has zero bearing on what TSMC offers Huawei. Apple is also not in a position to 'not allow' anything.
Both Apple and Huawei have contracts with TSMC. Once signed, it is up to TSMC to deliver in line with the contract terms. That's it.
Clearly Huawei and Apple were privileged in getting the first 7nm contracts.
As for launch windows, each company sets a release date in line with their own objectives. The SoC is not the sole reason to set a launch date. I mentioned this further up too.
If you want more, there were rumours that the P20 Series was selling so well that the company chose not to release in September so as to squeeze as much as possible out of that series.
Avon B7 is a Huawei fanboy, and it is well documented by his posts here on AI. He has set up his Huawei kiosk with the express purpose of evangelizing Huawei. That is unacceptable to me, and I expect others, who come here for unbiased technical information. I guess this is my "get off the lawn" moment.
https://www.gizmochina.com/2019/05/02/tsmc-7nm-clients-shift-6nm-node/
link;
https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/210499
"The Chinese Commercial Times claims TSMC will move to a 7-nanometer extreme ultraviolet lithography (EUV) process that has the potential for more accurate chip production and more intricate designs, named "N7+." HiSilicon's Kirin 985 chips will be the first to use N7+ in its production, but the Apple-designed "A13" will be the next to go into manufacturing at the firm.
For the A-series chip, TSMC will be bringing out an alternate form of its N7+ process which it calls "N7 Pro." It is unclear exactly what the difference is between N7 Pro and N7+, but it will reportedly be ready for volume production late in the second quarter, in time for A-series production for the fall iPhone refresh. "
Would you have posted that link if it wasn't for the Kirin 985 being the first production at N7+ ?
I doubt it.
Should you care that the A13 will be produced at the slightly different N7 Pro after the Kirin 985 is produced?
Probably not, but it does appear to back up Mel's statement that Apple has its own process technology at TMSC.
I have seen nothing to back up Mel's claim.