I am sure this key would ‘leak’ on the black market just like how CIA’s or NSA’s malware is being to damage American cities.
In fact I'm wondering if this is already in play in a couple of other countries. It would explain how Apple iMessage has escaped the same fate of the other encrypted messaging services who have refused to cow-tow in China and Russia.
Are you honestly suggesting Apple has given Russia access to everyone's encrypted iMessages, and not told anyone? Is that honestly what you're suggesting?
If Apple still runs the Russia service once the changeover is in full effect then no I don't think Apple would turn over any messages that were not already existing in the users Cloud account. They'll comply with the law just as they do everywhere else they do business and they can't turn over what they don't have.
BUT If they do as they did in China and turn it all over to a Russian agency to operate, no longer even branded as an Apple service, then of course it would not be Apple making the choices. Clean hands.
Not what I asked. You're moving the goalposts. What you said: "In fact I'm wondering if this is already in play in a couple of other countries"
So again -- are you honestly suggesting Apple has already handed over iMessage to Russia without telling anyone? FUD, FUD, FUD. All the little FUD pellets you leave behind you...
There are no secret data sharing of encrypted iMessages with governments. The only thing close to it is China's operation of the iCloud servers. Anything else you're suggested may already be in place is simply bullshit.
Since I'm wondering and you apparently have evidence there's nothing to wonder about how would you explain that the secure and end-to-end encrypted Signal and Telegram have been banned from operating there while the equally secure and encrypted end-to-end iMessage is just fine, or did it just never occur to you?
Is there any way to disprove you? Because your claim “Signal and Telegram are banned in Russia while iMessage not. ERGO Apple is delivering customer data to Russian state” is a so much unfalsifiable assertion that it defeats every attempt of reasoning.
I'm not claiming any fact about Russia and iMessage. I'm wondering about what I see as an oddity. How would YOU explain it? Maybe Russia just hasn't gotten around to iMessage yet and their turn is coming? Certainly another possibility that neither of can prove/disprove either. Thus wondering....
Start by investigating why Signal and Telegram are banned then.
I already did, long before you mentioned it. It has nothing to do with Russia being worried that users phone numbers and personal identification were being connected. If that were the case it seems more likely Russia would welcome it as a way of identifying potential "enemies of the state". That's actually mandated by Russia. See this from last fall: http://tass.com/politics/1029402
The fact that bound phone number is mandated by Russia doesn’t make it a truly anonymous tool. You’ve chosen a bad example to compare to iMessage and to further claim that iMessage is suspicious because it is not banned in Russia !!!!
Seems more likely you're making something up just to be dismissive. Why bother if you don't want discuss more honestly? Just drop out of the conversation.
So we learned that the actual reason Telegram is banned is a political struggle between vKontakte’s founder and the Russian government. You must have very imaginative thoughts beyond your expression capabilities to deduce that iMessage is suspicious as “proven” by that political action ! Yes I drop out of the conversation by respect to the forum audience. You may continue to throw shit to the walls to see which ones will hold to comply with your Google culture...
I am sure this key would ‘leak’ on the black market just like how CIA’s or NSA’s malware is being to damage American cities.
In fact I'm wondering if this is already in play in a couple of other countries. It would explain how Apple iMessage has escaped the same fate of the other encrypted messaging services who have refused to cow-tow in China and Russia.
Are you honestly suggesting Apple has given Russia access to everyone's encrypted iMessages, and not told anyone? Is that honestly what you're suggesting?
If Apple still runs the Russia service once the changeover is in full effect then no I don't think Apple would turn over any messages that were not already existing in the users Cloud account. They'll comply with the law just as they do everywhere else they do business and they can't turn over what they don't have.
BUT If they do as they did in China and turn it all over to a Russian agency to operate, no longer even branded as an Apple service, then of course it would not be Apple making the choices. Clean hands.
Not what I asked. You're moving the goalposts. What you said: "In fact I'm wondering if this is already in play in a couple of other countries"
So again -- are you honestly suggesting Apple has already handed over iMessage to Russia without telling anyone? FUD, FUD, FUD. All the little FUD pellets you leave behind you...
There are no secret data sharing of encrypted iMessages with governments. The only thing close to it is China's operation of the iCloud servers. Anything else you're suggested may already be in place is simply bullshit.
Since I'm wondering and you apparently have evidence there's nothing to wonder about how would you explain that the secure and end-to-end encrypted Signal and Telegram have been banned from operating there while the equally secure and encrypted end-to-end iMessage is just fine, or did it just never occur to you?
Is there any way to disprove you? Because your claim “Signal and Telegram are banned in Russia while iMessage not. ERGO Apple is delivering customer data to Russian state” is a so much unfalsifiable assertion that it defeats every attempt of reasoning.
I'm not claiming any fact about Russia and iMessage. I'm wondering about what I see as an oddity. How would YOU explain it? Maybe Russia just hasn't gotten around to iMessage yet and their turn is coming? Certainly another possibility that neither of can prove/disprove either. Thus wondering....
Start by investigating why Signal and Telegram are banned then.
I already did, long before you mentioned it. It has nothing to do with Russia being worried that users phone numbers and personal identification were being connected. If that were the case it seems more likely Russia would welcome it as a way of identifying potential "enemies of the state". That's actually mandated by Russia. See this from last fall: http://tass.com/politics/1029402
The fact that bound phone number is mandated by Russia doesn’t make it a truly anonymous tool. You’ve chosen a bad example to compare to iMessage and to further claim that iMessage is suspicious because it is not banned in Russia !!!!
Seems more likely you're making something up just to be dismissive. Why bother if you don't want discuss more honestly? Just drop out of the conversation.
So we learned that the actual reason Telegram is banned is a political struggle between vKontakte’s founder and the Russian government. You must have very imaginative thoughts beyond your expression capabilities to deduce that iMessage is suspicious as “proven” by that political action ! Yes I drop out of the conversation by respect to the forum audience. You may continue to throw shit to the walls to see which ones will hold to comply with your Google culture...
We did? So where's that link that proves it had nothing to do with encryption and Russian law?
I gave you three different ones, including a Russian government announcement from October that all messaging services would be required to link names and numbers to the messaging service which would apply to Apple just as assuredly as Telegram, and an article on the court case that found Telegram in non-compliance with Russian security laws and thus banned. I'm sure you're a good person and all but....
If you own the encryption keys you cannot prevent the government from getting to those keys. Any government on this planet can get those keys if you possess them. So if Telegram owns user keys then it deserves to be treated like that and it must comply with the court order. Apple doesn’t possess any user key, the keys are embedded in users’ devices and Apple has no access to those. This is why governments cannot get any key from Apple by court order or by law. Apple is not at the position of struggling with any government or any court, it just strives to maintain high level good business practices.
If you own the encryption keys you cannot prevent the government from getting to those keys. Any government on this planet can get those keys if you possess them. So if Telegram owns user keys then it deserves to be treated like that and it must comply with the court order. Apple doesn’t possess any user key, the keys are embedded in users’ devices and Apple has no access to those. This is why governments cannot get any key from Apple by court order or by law. Apple is not at the position of struggling with any government or any court, it just strives to maintain high level good business practices.
Now that's actually an informative post. Much better.
After your mention I took a look and yes Telegram uses their own homegrown encryption code and they could possibly have unlock keys and able to comply with a demand for them. tho Telegram claims they cannot. That's not 100% clear.
Iran is doing their own version of all this, and the US has instituted rules that in effect impact messaging apps such as Signal by handcuffing the ability of companies like Google helping those encrypted services evade foreign governments that demand access anyway.
The more I read about the state of encryption and secure communications on the internet the more it becomes unclear who is controlling what and where data is ending up and for what end.
I am sure this key would ‘leak’ on the black market just like how CIA’s or NSA’s malware is being to damage American cities.
I don't see how it would "leak" on the black market as there's no backdoor modification to any of Apple encrypted messaging service, nor are the Brits asking for one. They simply want Google and Apple and the rest to be legally required to add GCHQ as another recipient of the target's still encrypted message. Apple who whoever would still be the company responsible for actually doing it if I read this correctly. Certainly not something I would advocate for, but still far better than a weakened encryption service.
In fact I'm wondering if this is already in play in a couple of other countries. It would explain how Apple iMessage has escaped the same fate of the other encrypted messaging services who have refused to cow-tow in China and Russia. At least in China it is no longer Apple iCloud nor an Apple-controlled service, rebadged as GCBD iCloud and run by the Chinese. Simply inserting themselves as an additional recipient of still-encrypted iMessages would be the so-simple fix. Russia may bve in the process of doing something similar.
What good are billions of encrypted messages without the keys held on the end devices?
Comments
So we learned that the actual reason Telegram is banned is a political struggle between vKontakte’s founder and the Russian government. You must have very imaginative thoughts beyond your expression capabilities to deduce that iMessage is suspicious as “proven” by that political action ! Yes I drop out of the conversation by respect to the forum audience. You may continue to throw shit to the walls to see which ones will hold to comply with your Google culture...
I gave you three different ones, including a Russian government announcement from October that all messaging services would be required to link names and numbers to the messaging service which would apply to Apple just as assuredly as Telegram, and an article on the court case that found Telegram in non-compliance with Russian security laws and thus banned. I'm sure you're a good person and all but....
In truth Russia seems to be on the same path as China. The Chinese crafted security rules that block access to many outside websites and services. Now the Russians are too. The Chinese have moved to ban encrypted messaging apps that refuse to comply with demands for user information "for security reasons". Now so have the Russians. The Chinese have attempted to block and otherwise regulate VPN's that hide user browsing and communications. Now so have the Russians. The Chinese security laws require Apple to host user data in government servers within the borders of their country ( bit more than that since). Now so have the Russians. Whether they end in the same place as the Chinese with a Russian-owned version of iCloud is still to be determined.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/03/29/russia-threatens-to-block-popular-vpn-services-to-prevent-website-access-a65007
https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-communications-minister-says-viber-messaging-app-may-be-blocked/29206167.html
https://www.zdnet.com/article/russia-now-everyone-who-uses-a-messaging-app-must-be-identifiable/
After your mention I took a look and yes Telegram uses their own homegrown encryption code and they could possibly have unlock keys and able to comply with a demand for them. tho Telegram claims they cannot. That's not 100% clear.
Good research sir. So that's one possible difference tho unconfirmed as far as I can tell.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2018/04/13/russia-just-banned-telegram-what-happens-next-a61168
Iran is doing their own version of all this, and the US has instituted rules that in effect impact messaging apps such as Signal by handcuffing the ability of companies like Google helping those encrypted services evade foreign governments that demand access anyway.
The more I read about the state of encryption and secure communications on the internet the more it becomes unclear who is controlling what and where data is ending up and for what end.
Could GCHQ fit within Apple Park?