I have a MacBook pro 2015 13". I am waiting to upgrade to a new one. I don't have any problem with the new keyboards travel etc (though I would take 2015 keyboard anytime given the option). So, I'm waiting for few months and see how this new one holds up. Though 2-5 people I know have 2017/2018 pro's and their keyboard is fine. Only place I have read about this issue is online.
One thing is pretty clear Apple wouldn't offer free service for keyboards if they had confidence in their keyboards. So, even if affects small percentage of people I don't want to be that guy. I'm holding my purchase until it is fixed.
...is a herald of a day where Apple goes to an all-glass keyboard on the line...
I made a similar prediction in a previous forum post.
You did!
We've been talking about it on the podcast and in mostly patent applications that Apple's filed for a while too, and we thought it was worth emphasizing.
HOOOBOY when an admin responds defensively you know you touched a nerve. 1. You're right, I don't know when you got your review unit, if you got it in advance, like some legitimate media outlets are prone to, then congrats! So when did you get your unit? Just for the sake of transparency? 2+3. Gatekeeping the phrase "ultimate refinement" based on your own needs serves no useful purpose either. See how that works? Imperial bloviating serves no one except as clickbait. It would have been more accurate for the 15 inch 8 core vega 20 monster. 4. To me, PRO means PRO as in iMac PRO and Mac PRO and iPad PRO, machines that serve the vast majority of PRO users. That have some kind of longevity and power to justify the increased expense. The 13 inch is Prosumer at best. For comparison sake, the specs of the Razer Stealth: $1699-Thinner Cheaper last year's processor though (Q3'18), plus discrete graphics.... Apple Can Do Better and they SHOULD BE. Quad-Core 8th Gen Intel® Core™ i7-8565U Processor 1.8 GHz / 4.6 GHz (Base/Turbo) NVIDIA® GeForce® MX150 (25W) 4GB GDDR5 VRAM 13.3" 4K Touch w/ 4.9mm slim side bezel 512GB Flash 16GB dual-channel RAM Up to 8 hours Battery (53.1Wh) Anodized black aluminum finish 0.58" x 11.99" x 8.27" / 14.8mm x 304.6mm x 210mm
We've had the machine long enough to say a couple of weeks, and be accurate about it.
Anyway, no nerve was struck, I just like conversing about products. Given that AI has been around for 25 years, we have a long of long-time readers. While you don't appear to be in the "Apple owes me" group -- which is good -- there still seems to be an undercurrent of "what Apple is doing is wrong for me, and therefore, no good for anybody."
For better or worse, depending on your point of view, Apple has changed. In releasing the iPad and iPhone, they've finally hit the computer for the rest of us. I understand that the changes are jarring for long-time Apple users and we don't necessarily agree on what they've done from a personal point of view. But, the 13-inch MBP is a really solid machine that absolutely will get the job done for the audience that Apple has targeted with it. Apple isn't targeting the discrete GPU crowd with the 13-inch MBP. targeting the discrete GPU crowd with the 15-inch MacBook Pro, and our review of that is coming a bit later today.
I'm not sure where you get your counter-argument about us gatekeeping "ultimate refinement" as we aren't trying to define the term.
Apple's use of the term Pro doesn't mean "for professionals, and only for professionals" and the non-Pro gear isn't named like that because Apple thinks that it can't be used by professionals. Pro doesn't mean one single thing other than not-Air, or not-mini. All it means is "this is a higher-end product that the other stuff." The 13-inch MBP is higher-end than the Air or MacBook, so it gets the Pro name. As simple as that, and no more is implied by the use of the name.
I get that you want it to have discrete graphics. it doesn't. That makes it a bad product for you, and like I said, that's okay. But it doesn't make it that for everybody, and not for the vast majority of users considering the device. And, had it had that discrete graphics at that price point, we'd have given it more than a 4 out of 5.
The article author believes that the TouchBar and TouchID should stay.
FaceID would be far more convenient on a laptop than TouchID. Presumably Apple would need to add dedicated camera and image reading hardware as well as some embedded CPU, but I'd much rather have this system in place than one in which somebody could conceivably log into my laptop while I'm sleeping (though I tend to always shut it down at the end of the evening).
For my own personal use cases, the TouchBar is a waste of space. Most of my third party apps are set to display the F keys by default and I simply see no value for the TouchID specific controls on the first party apps that I use. Also, for apps like Java IDEs, I prefer to have tactile feedback on the F keys, which are essential for various operations such as refactoring. (Side note: Apple needs to add a context menu shortcut for all apps like every other freaking GUI operating system on Earth).
If Apple keeps the TouchBar and adds it to external keyboards, just how much will these keyboards cost? I can buy a standard PC keyboard for less than 20 Canadian dollars (sales tax + recycling fee) right now at a local store.
If Apple is going to force us all to type on glass then they'd better get all of these things right (with their track record, I'm not optimistic):
Tactile feedback on each "key" that takes the place of physical keys. I'm a touch typist and my productivity would be severely impeded if I had to stare at the "keyboard" to assess key presses.
Seamless switching between "trackpad" and "keyboard" mode (you know they're going to do this), without any accidental mixing of concerns. I don't want to "click" something when I intended to "type".
Spell checking that makes sense. Right now, first party macOS apps have decent spell checking from the keyboard (position the cursor next to the word and see a list of correction suggestions that can be selected from the arrow keys). Spell checking on third party apps without a context menu such as Firefox (they removed this functionality and basically told me unequivocally no when I asked for it back) forces me to reach for my mouse or trackpad to right-click on the misspelled word. This workflow is unacceptably inefficient.
Context menu key (we'll probably have aliens from outer space running Apple before that happens).
One of things that has been a bit of a divisive topic is the Touch Bar. It carried a lot of hype but landed with a bit of a whisper. There still aren't a lot of use cases for the Touch Bar and the debate continues about a user desire for traditional function keys.
We fell into this camp as well -- until we used the new MacBook Pro in clamshell mode and we notice the benefits that it provided -- ones so simple we don't think about them until we can't use them. When closed, we missed things like the color picker in graphics programs, the recent document picker in Affinity Photo and Affinity Designer, and adjusting audio quickly in bulk in Final Cut Pro X. Not to mention Touch ID.
That appears to be an all too common execution problem of Apple v3.0. I have noticed. Apple develop and introduce a potentially interesting technology, but no follow through. Siri, force touch, Touch Bar, MagSafe, I could go on. Cool stuff which either languishes or never gets fully deployed across the lines so thus developers don’t properly integrate it, or it gets overtaken with imitators’ iterations. Heck even maps, which clearly is highly important, seems to be upgraded quite slowly. Look at the rate of sending out those mapping cars. It isn’t as though resources are a relevant limitation. It’s like nothing is allowed to happen until it is proven to not impact on the supply chain efficiency and margins elsewhere.
Anyway, lately cool stuff seems to be trotted out, then...limited follow through. The touch bar is a classic example. Costs a lot to produce and provide, raising the cost of MBPs, but it isn’t in every Mac product, so...isn’t as widely utilised by developers, even Apple itself, as it could be.
I wouldn’t include MagSafe in Apple 3.0. But agree 100% on TouchBar and 3D Touch.
HOOOBOY when an admin responds defensively you know you touched a nerve. 1. You're right, I don't know when you got your review unit, if you got it in advance, like some legitimate media outlets are prone to, then congrats! So when did you get your unit? Just for the sake of transparency?
2+3. Gatekeeping the phrase "ultimate refinement" based on your own needs serves no useful purpose either. See how that works? Imperial bloviating serves no one except as clickbait. It would have been more accurate for the 15 inch 8 core vega 20 monster.
4. To me, PRO means PRO as in iMac PRO and Mac PRO and iPad PRO,
machines that serve the vast majority of PRO users. That have some kind of longevity and power to justify the increased expense. The 13 inch is Prosumer at best. For comparison sake, the specs of the Razer Stealth:
$1699-Thinner Cheaper last year's processor though (Q3'18), plus discrete graphics.... Apple Can Do Better and they SHOULD BE.
Quad-Core 8th Gen Intel® Core™ i7-8565U Processor 1.8 GHz / 4.6 GHz (Base/Turbo)
NVIDIA® GeForce® MX150 (25W) 4GB GDDR5 VRAM
13.3" 4K Touch w/ 4.9mm slim side bezel
512GB Flash
16GB dual-channel RAM
Up to 8 hours Battery (53.1Wh)
Anodized black aluminum finish
0.58" x 11.99" x 8.27" / 14.8mm x 304.6mm x 210mm
Hate to break it to ya, son, but Apple has said that the majority of their pro users are software developers. And it’s fine. Your excited panic doesn’t represent us.
But as has been explained to you, in Apple product parlance Pro means “Our better offering in some product category”, and that’s really all it means. It is a marketing tier label. It doesn’t define customers or users or their careers.
Until Apple increases the amount of key travel on these MacBooks, I will never buy one. Yes, I know this is a subjective issue, but the feel of the keyboard is a really, really important aspect for me when using a laptop. I just refuse to compromise on this matter. And I know I am not alone.
I’m sure Tim, Craig, and Phil lose sleep at night because of your demands. You’re not alone? Who’s the other guy? Oh, you mean the anonymous, unsubstantiated comments on sites like MacRumors and 9to5Mac?
At least 40% of the comments on the butterfly keyboard on this site - AppleInsider - have been negative over the past year. That’s about the same percentage on MacRumours and 9to5Mac, so don’t kid yourself that only a small percentage of people really don’t like this keyboard. The negative feedback is even higher on sites like Reddit - probably because they are less strictly moderated and people tend to vent more. My point is, the problem with this keyboard is very real for many people.
You are only counting comments on some tech blog forums. Comments on these sites are a tiny fraction of the real world and consist of anonymous users who may or may not have an agenda. People such as yourself apparently believe that tech blog comment sections represent the majority of users and are the definitive authority on whether this issue is widespread. They are not. And apparently you are calling Apple a liar when they say that only a small number of keyboards are affected. if you don't believe Apple then you are free to lodge a complaint with the SEC and FTC that Apple is committing fraud. Do you have the proof Apple is lying? Again, you and others are assuming this teeny tiny sample of users on tech blogs represent the world.
Not sure what parallel universe you inhabit but there is no way Apple would offer preemptive service guarantees - specifically for these keyboards - if these problems only affected a small number of people.
Nor would there be class action lawsuits launched against Apple for these faulty keyboards if the problems weren’t widespread. Nor would hundreds of thousands of people (cumulatively) sign numerous petitions against these keyboards. Nor would many ex and current service centre employees at Apple stores say that butterfly keyboard repairs now comprise a big part of their work load.
It may be comforting for you to believe this problem only exists in the techno blogosphere but you would be mistaken.
OMG you must be joking. Class action suits are filed every single day for frivolous claims.
Preemptive service guarantee could certainly be offered as a PR countermeasure to the narrative put forth by pro-trolls like Joanna Stern, the Verge, etc.
Lastly, Apple execs are barred from lying. It’s a SEC thing. They’re aren’t going to lie. They say it’s minimal and within expected failure rates. No one, not the Verge and not AI, has provided any real data or reason to doubt them.
Until Apple increases the amount of key travel on these MacBooks, I will never buy one. Yes, I know this is a subjective issue, but the feel of the keyboard is a really, really important aspect for me when using a laptop. I just refuse to compromise on this matter. And I know I am not alone.
I’m sure Tim, Craig, and Phil lose sleep at night because of your demands. You’re not alone? Who’s the other guy? Oh, you mean the anonymous, unsubstantiated comments on sites like MacRumors and 9to5Mac?
At least 40% of the comments on the butterfly keyboard on this site - AppleInsider - have been negative over the past year. That’s about the same percentage on MacRumours and 9to5Mac, so don’t kid yourself that only a small percentage of people really don’t like this keyboard. The negative feedback is even higher on sites like Reddit - probably because they are less strictly moderated and people tend to vent more. My point is, the problem with this keyboard is very real for many people.
You are only counting comments on some tech blog forums. Comments on these sites are a tiny fraction of the real world and consist of anonymous users who may or may not have an agenda. People such as yourself apparently believe that tech blog comment sections represent the majority of users and are the definitive authority on whether this issue is widespread. They are not. And apparently you are calling Apple a liar when they say that only a small number of keyboards are affected. if you don't believe Apple then you are free to lodge a complaint with the SEC and FTC that Apple is committing fraud. Do you have the proof Apple is lying? Again, you and others are assuming this teeny tiny sample of users on tech blogs represent the world.
Not sure what parallel universe you inhabit but there is no way Apple would offer preemptive service guarantees - specifically for these keyboards - if these problems only affected a small number of people.
Nor would there be class action lawsuits launched against Apple for these faulty keyboards if the problems weren’t widespread. Nor would hundreds of thousands of people (cumulatively) sign numerous petitions against these keyboards. Nor would many ex and current service centre employees at Apple stores say that butterfly keyboard repairs now comprise a big part of their work load.
It may be comforting for you to believe this problem only exists in the techno blogosphere but you would be mistaken.
OMG you must be joking. Class action suits are filed every single day for frivolous claims.
Preemptive service guarantee could certainly be offered as a PR countermeasure to the narrative put forth by pro-trolls like Joanna Stern, the Verge, etc.
Lastly, Apple execs are barred from lying. It’s a SEC thing. They’re aren’t going to lie. They say it’s minimal and within expected failure rates. No one, not the Verge and not AI, has provided any real data or reason to doubt them.
Apple’s definition of ‘minimal’ and ‘within expected failure rates’ - is at their discretion. There are no industry agreed standards what these terms mean. It could range from 1% to 20%, or more, depending on the context.
Until Apple increases the amount of key travel on these MacBooks, I will never buy one. Yes, I know this is a subjective issue, but the feel of the keyboard is a really, really important aspect for me when using a laptop. I just refuse to compromise on this matter. And I know I am not alone.
I’m sure Tim, Craig, and Phil lose sleep at night because of your demands. You’re not alone? Who’s the other guy? Oh, you mean the anonymous, unsubstantiated comments on sites like MacRumors and 9to5Mac?
At least 40% of the comments on the butterfly keyboard on this site - AppleInsider - have been negative over the past year. That’s about the same percentage on MacRumours and 9to5Mac, so don’t kid yourself that only a small percentage of people really don’t like this keyboard. The negative feedback is even higher on sites like Reddit - probably because they are less strictly moderated and people tend to vent more. My point is, the problem with this keyboard is very real for many people.
Thing is people like myself who do like the keyboard don’t bother to write about it. So 40% negative comments is nothing.
had it had that discrete graphics at that price point, we'd have given it more than a 4 out of 5.
I mean, even if it had a dGPU it's still priced very high.
Razer Blade Stealth 13 - $1699
13.3" 3840x2160
Intel Core i7-8565U (4 cores / 4.6 GHz turbo)
NVIDIA MX150 4 GB dGPU (25W version)
16 GB LPDDR3
512 GB PCIe
MacBook Pro 13 - $2349
13.3" 2560x1600
Intel Core i7-8xxxU (4 cores / 4.7 GHz turbo)
Intel Iris Plus 655 iGPU
16 GB LPDDR3
512 GB PCIe
How would a Razer Blade Stealth 13 be of any use to someone who wants a Mac?
It offers superior hardware for a significantly lower price. For someone who wants to get work done faster, or has a set budget, the MacBook Pro 13 might not be an option.
If your work-flow requires macOS, then you have no other option but to pay Apple's massive markup.
I know a lot of people are hating on this update, but I'm currently working with a 2012 MacBook Air and a 2011 MacBook Pro (that I put 8GB of RAM and a 1TB SSD into to give it a few more years of use) and I am DYING OVER HERE. I cannot do anything in Lightroom anymore because both of these machines slug along like dinosaurs. So I'm totally buying one of these new ones and cannot wait to get it.
Unfortunately, when I go to Adorama and enter the coupon code for the 13" 2.4Ghz 16GB 512GB configuration, the coupon only takes $100 off instead of the noted $150 off at the bottom of this article. Is there a misprint in the article? Or should I wait to get someone from Adorama to respond to me before ordering?
Comments
One thing is pretty clear Apple wouldn't offer free service for keyboards if they had confidence in their keyboards. So, even if affects small percentage of people I don't want to be that guy. I'm holding my purchase until it is fixed.
We've been talking about it on the podcast and in mostly patent applications that Apple's filed for a while too, and we thought it was worth emphasizing.
Anyway, no nerve was struck, I just like conversing about products. Given that AI has been around for 25 years, we have a long of long-time readers. While you don't appear to be in the "Apple owes me" group -- which is good -- there still seems to be an undercurrent of "what Apple is doing is wrong for me, and therefore, no good for anybody."
For better or worse, depending on your point of view, Apple has changed. In releasing the iPad and iPhone, they've finally hit the computer for the rest of us. I understand that the changes are jarring for long-time Apple users and we don't necessarily agree on what they've done from a personal point of view. But, the 13-inch MBP is a really solid machine that absolutely will get the job done for the audience that Apple has targeted with it. Apple isn't targeting the discrete GPU crowd with the 13-inch MBP. targeting the discrete GPU crowd with the 15-inch MacBook Pro, and our review of that is coming a bit later today.
I'm not sure where you get your counter-argument about us gatekeeping "ultimate refinement" as we aren't trying to define the term.
Apple's use of the term Pro doesn't mean "for professionals, and only for professionals" and the non-Pro gear isn't named like that because Apple thinks that it can't be used by professionals. Pro doesn't mean one single thing other than not-Air, or not-mini. All it means is "this is a higher-end product that the other stuff." The 13-inch MBP is higher-end than the Air or MacBook, so it gets the Pro name. As simple as that, and no more is implied by the use of the name.
I get that you want it to have discrete graphics. it doesn't. That makes it a bad product for you, and like I said, that's okay. But it doesn't make it that for everybody, and not for the vast majority of users considering the device. And, had it had that discrete graphics at that price point, we'd have given it more than a 4 out of 5.
But as has been explained to you, in Apple product parlance Pro means “Our better offering in some product category”, and that’s really all it means. It is a marketing tier label. It doesn’t define customers or users or their careers.
Preemptive service guarantee could certainly be offered as a PR countermeasure to the narrative put forth by pro-trolls like Joanna Stern, the Verge, etc.
Lastly, Apple execs are barred from lying. It’s a SEC thing. They’re aren’t going to lie. They say it’s minimal and within expected failure rates. No one, not the Verge and not AI, has provided any real data or reason to doubt them.
Razer Blade Stealth 13 - $1699
- 13.3" 3840x2160
- Intel Core i7-8565U (4 cores / 4.6 GHz turbo)
- NVIDIA MX150 4 GB dGPU (25W version)
- 16 GB LPDDR3
- 512 GB PCIe
MacBook Pro 13 - $2349How would a Razer Blade Stealth 13 be of any use to someone who wants a Mac?
If your work-flow requires macOS, then you have no other option but to pay Apple's massive markup.
Unfortunately, when I go to Adorama and enter the coupon code for the 13" 2.4Ghz 16GB 512GB configuration, the coupon only takes $100 off instead of the noted $150 off at the bottom of this article. Is there a misprint in the article? Or should I wait to get someone from Adorama to respond to me before ordering?