Amazing the power of propaganda to, in short order, and without evidence, label an entire country a dangerous enemy. While a country that actually attacked us and continues to attack us is labelled as a friend. And then to watch supposedly intelligent, mature people and organizations jump on the bandwagon.
Sad and scary.
I've been to China for a few weeks as part of my university studies. There's plenty of evidence to consider China a dangerous enemy, especially to individual freedom and civil rights. Maybe you don't remember Tank Man? China is a single-party authoritative regime and routinely executes or imprisons political dissidents and those it considers enemies. You're seriously high if you're denying this is fact.
The people of China were a different story. But the party-controlled government of China is very dangerous. They are the last people in the world I'd want to give leverage or the keys to communications.
World trade with China has lifted a billion people there out of poverty, made war with them enormously less likely, and made the whole world much more efficient and prosperous. Contact with capitalism and democracy is contagious. Yes, take precautions, but don't screw up the world.
And yet reality in China says otherwise -- under the digital surveillance state the people of China have even less power and free exchange of information. The student-led democracy protests of the 1980s could likely not happen again. They have clamped down hard on that. The people of China are oppressed by murderous authoritarians. This is fact, and was my point in response to the naive person who said China is not dangerous. They are quite dangerous to the ideas valued by free civilizations.
Yes, China has an authoritarian government and enough of their people are OK with that, so there will be no overthrow of their system yet. If millions and millions of people there lost their jobs on the other hand, revolution could rapidly happen.
Apple roughly ships 200M iPhone, 100M of those are not the latest, i.e iPhone 8 and below. Foxconn in India already has the ability to assemble those phones if and when needed. It is only a matter of scale.
US has roughly 30% of Apple's revenue, so assuming in perfect scale ( which won't be the case but for the sake of numbers ), Foxconn will need to assemble 15M older generation iPhone and 15M latest iPhone outside of China.
This doesn't make sense. You can't use # of phones as a proxy for revenue. There are too many things wrong here. You've basically said Apple needs to make 30M phones -total- for the US. Does that sound right to you?
Just find one of those estimates from Gartner, IDC, etc. and look at their yearly US sales estimates. That's approximately how many phones Foxconn would need to assemble outside of China. It's going to be more than 30M
As the comment below mine pointed out, I did the math wrong, it should be 60M.
Amazing the power of propaganda to, in short order, and without evidence, label an entire country a dangerous enemy. While a country that actually attacked us and continues to attack us is labelled as a friend. And then to watch supposedly intelligent, mature people and organizations jump on the bandwagon.
Sad and scary.
Apple may lose most of US market if 25% tariffs are imposed. Then US will let Korean Samsung to make huge profits? This does not make sense? And our patriotic politicians have no feelings? Apple will not dies. It can sell to the rest of the world. Unless Trump administration can coerce all US 'allies' to ban Chinese smartphones?
So let me get this straight: Foxconn is supposed to move Apple production out of China -- why? Who wins? It certainly will not help them, Apple, China or the United States. Who wins?
Once again we have a president who has started a war but has no game plan or exit strategy. But he gets to brag about it. I'm waiting for the "Mission Accomplished" speech.
Once again we have a president who has started a war but has no game plan or exit strategy. But he gets to brag about it. I'm waiting for the "Mission Accomplished" speech.
Poor Americans! They always have to choose the better of two evils. On the other side, you have a party that is socialist minded. They will do whatever they can to transfer money from the working class to the group they think is 'poor disadvantaged'.
Once again we have a president who has started a war but has no game plan or exit strategy. But he gets to brag about it. I'm waiting for the "Mission Accomplished" speech.
Poor Americans! They always have to choose the better of two evils. On the other side, you have a party that is socialist minded. They will do whatever they can to transfer money from the working class to the group they think is 'poor disadvantaged'.
True -- at least according to the right wing propaganda... But even if it were true, isn't that better than transferring a Trillion $ to the 1% ?
Once again we have a president who has started a war but has no game plan or exit strategy. But he gets to brag about it. I'm waiting for the "Mission Accomplished" speech.
Poor Americans! They always have to choose the better of two evils. On the other side, you have a party that is socialist minded. They will do whatever they can to transfer money from the working class to the group they think is 'poor disadvantaged'.
True -- at least according to the right wing propaganda... But even if it were true, isn't that better than transferring a Trillion $ to the 1% ?
No, on this matter I am sympathetic with the super rich people. My philosophy is this. Each people has one mouth and one body. They cannot eat ten peoples food. They cannot sleep on two beds. Most of them are not wasting resources. Most of their money just stay in the company they owned. They can earn billions and billions of dollars because the government print trillions of dollars over the years. It is not their fault to make so much money. On this point I strongly disagree with the other side.
Once again we have a president who has started a war but has no game plan or exit strategy. But he gets to brag about it. I'm waiting for the "Mission Accomplished" speech.
Poor Americans! They always have to choose the better of two evils. On the other side, you have a party that is socialist minded. They will do whatever they can to transfer money from the working class to the group they think is 'poor disadvantaged'.
True -- at least according to the right wing propaganda... But even if it were true, isn't that better than transferring a Trillion $ to the 1% ?
No, on this matter I am sympathetic with the super rich people. My philosophy is this. Each people has one mouth and one body. They cannot eat ten peoples food. They cannot sleep on two beds. Most of them are not wasting resources. Most of their money just stay in the company they owned. They can earn billions and billions of dollars because the government print trillions of dollars over the years. It is not their fault to make so much money. On this point I strongly disagree with the other side.
Amazing the power of propaganda to, in short order, and without evidence, label an entire country a dangerous enemy. While a country that actually attacked us and continues to attack us is labelled as a friend. And then to watch supposedly intelligent, mature people and organizations jump on the bandwagon.
Sad and scary.
I've been to China for a few weeks as part of my university studies. There's plenty of evidence to consider China a dangerous enemy, especially to individual freedom and civil rights. Maybe you don't remember Tank Man? China is a single-party authoritative regime and routinely executes or imprisons political dissidents and those it considers enemies. You're seriously high if you're denying this is fact.
The people of China were a different story. But the party-controlled government of China is very dangerous. They are the last people in the world I'd want to give leverage or the keys to communications.
World trade with China has lifted a billion people there out of poverty, made war with them enormously less likely, and made the whole world much more efficient and prosperous. Contact with capitalism and democracy is contagious. Yes, take precautions, but don't screw up the world.
I don't understand your argument that putting China in it's place could screw up the world. If Foxconn says it can manufacture outside China and honor their contract bids for the parts they make, how does anyone but China lose? As far as being dangerous, China's economy is fragile, they can't afford to go to war.
China has become very advanced and very competitive, something which the US wants to put a halt to, it simply does not want competition.
As far as Apple is concerned I'm sure they have been looking elsewhere where they can get a higher profit ratio. There are other places where labour is cheaper than in China, maybe India, Vietnam, Bangladesh, etc.
We operate on a free enterprise system, which is based on the premise that competition benefits the system by benefiting the consumer, so I don't understand why you think US doesn't want competition. Apple has a history of being a profit-driven business with a concience. They champion individual rights to things like personal privacy even when it means taking on powerful elements of the US government. They are right to look for alternative sources for skilled inexpensive labor, not to improve their margins, but to maintain their current quality to cost ratios. We all want them to do that. That this may cost thousands of Chinese their jobs is not Apple's responsibility, but the Chinese government, who should be, but are not, protecting those jobs the Chinese people and the Chinese economy depend on. If, as you say, the labor is cheaper in India, Vietnam, or Bangladesh, why is Apple in China? Do you really think you've found something Apple missed?
I feel compelled to point out that we're taking the executives of an enormous international corporation at their word. At this point we have no evidence to back up their claims and right now the only history I am aware of is the Wisconsin deal where the initial claims were not borne out.
China has become very advanced and very competitive, something which the US wants to put a halt to, it simply does not want competition.
As far as Apple is concerned I'm sure they have been looking elsewhere where they can get a higher profit ratio. There are other places where labour is cheaper than in China, maybe India, Vietnam, Bangladesh, etc.
We operate on a free enterprise system, which is based on the premise that competition benefits the system by benefiting the consumer, so I don't understand why you think US doesn't want competition. Apple has a history of being a profit-driven business with a concience. They champion individual rights to things like personal privacy even when it means taking on powerful elements of the US government. They are right to look for alternative sources for skilled inexpensive labor, not to improve their margins, but to maintain their current quality to cost ratios. We all want them to do that. That this may cost thousands of Chinese their jobs is not Apple's responsibility, but the Chinese government, who should be, but are not, protecting those jobs the Chinese people and the Chinese economy depend on. If, as you say, the labor is cheaper in India, Vietnam, or Bangladesh, why is Apple in China? Do you really think you've found something Apple missed?
You had me until you blamed this mess on China. Trump has yet to produce any proof of his claims. In fact a bipartisan bill in congress will censure him for hiding behind national security. But he has admitted to wanting to try to slow down the Chinese economy because he fears it passing the U.S. economy to become he world's largest.
That's a Trump problem, not a China problem. But the Chinese are fed up with him and will be striking back in the appropriate ways and at the appropriate time.
China has become very advanced and very competitive, something which the US wants to put a halt to, it simply does not want competition.
As far as Apple is concerned I'm sure they have been looking elsewhere where they can get a higher profit ratio. There are other places where labour is cheaper than in China, maybe India, Vietnam, Bangladesh, etc.
We operate on a free enterprise system, which is based on the premise that competition benefits the system by benefiting the consumer, so I don't understand why you think US doesn't want competition. Apple has a history of being a profit-driven business with a concience. They champion individual rights to things like personal privacy even when it means taking on powerful elements of the US government. They are right to look for alternative sources for skilled inexpensive labor, not to improve their margins, but to maintain their current quality to cost ratios. We all want them to do that. That this may cost thousands of Chinese their jobs is not Apple's responsibility, but the Chinese government, who should be, but are not, protecting those jobs the Chinese people and the Chinese economy depend on. If, as you say, the labor is cheaper in India, Vietnam, or Bangladesh, why is Apple in China? Do you really think you've found something Apple missed?
You had me until you blamed this mess on China. Trump has yet to produce any proof of his claims. In fact a bipartisan bill in congress will censure him for hiding behind national security. But he has admitted to wanting to try to slow down the Chinese economy because he fears it passing the U.S. economy to become he world's largest.
That's a Trump problem, not a China problem. But the Chinese are fed up with him and will be striking back in the appropriate ways and at the appropriate time.
Trump is like the bump in the road. Its real. You either deal with it, or you take the hit. Trumps drama is Apple's challenge and Foxconn's challenge as well. They are preparing to meet the challenge with as little loss as possible while China is still making inflammatory threats and risking a loss they probably can't afford. Trump is behaving like Trump and China is behaving like China. The Chinese people will ultimately pay the price for all this. And that's a China problem.
China has become very advanced and very competitive, something which the US wants to put a halt to, it simply does not want competition.
As far as Apple is concerned I'm sure they have been looking elsewhere where they can get a higher profit ratio. There are other places where labour is cheaper than in China, maybe India, Vietnam, Bangladesh, etc.
We operate on a free enterprise system, which is based on the premise that competition benefits the system by benefiting the consumer, so I don't understand why you think US doesn't want competition. Apple has a history of being a profit-driven business with a concience. They champion individual rights to things like personal privacy even when it means taking on powerful elements of the US government. They are right to look for alternative sources for skilled inexpensive labor, not to improve their margins, but to maintain their current quality to cost ratios. We all want them to do that. That this may cost thousands of Chinese their jobs is not Apple's responsibility, but the Chinese government, who should be, but are not, protecting those jobs the Chinese people and the Chinese economy depend on. If, as you say, the labor is cheaper in India, Vietnam, or Bangladesh, why is Apple in China? Do you really think you've found something Apple missed?
You had me until you blamed this mess on China. Trump has yet to produce any proof of his claims. In fact a bipartisan bill in congress will censure him for hiding behind national security. But he has admitted to wanting to try to slow down the Chinese economy because he fears it passing the U.S. economy to become he world's largest.
That's a Trump problem, not a China problem. But the Chinese are fed up with him and will be striking back in the appropriate ways and at the appropriate time.
Trump is like the bump in the road. Its real. You either deal with it, or you take the hit. Trumps drama is Apple's challenge and Foxconn's challenge as well. They are preparing to meet the challenge with as little loss as possible while China is still making inflammatory threats and risking a loss they probably can't afford. Trump is behaving like Trump and China is behaving like China. The Chinese people will ultimately pay the price for all this. And that's a China problem.
My money would not be on Trump.... And China is not "Still making threats". Until Trump went crazy on them, they maintained a stoicism and tried their best to placate him. But he pushed them to far. Now, XI says that Trump is his friend, but Putin is his best friend. Trump did that.
Long term, it won't be China who suffers from this ill conceived war. They'll just make new alliances and as the rest of the world recognizes that the U.S. has become unstable and unreliable as a partner, they will gladly join in mutually beneficial alliances that exclude the U.S.
Bravado and chest thumping can only get you so far....
Amazing the power of propaganda to, in short order, and without evidence, label an entire country a dangerous enemy. While a country that actually attacked us and continues to attack us is labelled as a friend. And then to watch supposedly intelligent, mature people and organizations jump on the bandwagon.
Sad and scary.
Apple may lose most of US market if 25% tariffs are imposed. Then US will let Korean Samsung to make huge profits? This does not make sense? And our patriotic politicians have no feelings? Apple will not dies. It can sell to the rest of the world. Unless Trump administration can coerce all US 'allies' to ban Chinese smartphones?
You do realize Samsung makes the majority of their products sold in the US in China, they are subject to the same tariff as any company importing products from China. Us already took care of the largest Chines competitor out side the US, they cut their supply of technology from US companies they will not be selling phones outside China for very long, No need to convince the world to stop buying from China.
China has become very advanced and very competitive, something which the US wants to put a halt to, it simply does not want competition.
As far as Apple is concerned I'm sure they have been looking elsewhere where they can get a higher profit ratio. There are other places where labour is cheaper than in China, maybe India, Vietnam, Bangladesh, etc.
We operate on a free enterprise system, which is based on the premise that competition benefits the system by benefiting the consumer, so I don't understand why you think US doesn't want competition. Apple has a history of being a profit-driven business with a concience. They champion individual rights to things like personal privacy even when it means taking on powerful elements of the US government. They are right to look for alternative sources for skilled inexpensive labor, not to improve their margins, but to maintain their current quality to cost ratios. We all want them to do that. That this may cost thousands of Chinese their jobs is not Apple's responsibility, but the Chinese government, who should be, but are not, protecting those jobs the Chinese people and the Chinese economy depend on. If, as you say, the labor is cheaper in India, Vietnam, or Bangladesh, why is Apple in China? Do you really think you've found something Apple missed?
You had me until you blamed this mess on China. Trump has yet to produce any proof of his claims. In fact a bipartisan bill in congress will censure him for hiding behind national security. But he has admitted to wanting to try to slow down the Chinese economy because he fears it passing the U.S. economy to become he world's largest.
That's a Trump problem, not a China problem. But the Chinese are fed up with him and will be striking back in the appropriate ways and at the appropriate time.
Trump is like the bump in the road. Its real. You either deal with it, or you take the hit. Trumps drama is Apple's challenge and Foxconn's challenge as well. They are preparing to meet the challenge with as little loss as possible while China is still making inflammatory threats and risking a loss they probably can't afford. Trump is behaving like Trump and China is behaving like China. The Chinese people will ultimately pay the price for all this. And that's a China problem.
My money would not be on Trump.... And China is not "Still making threats". Until Trump went crazy on them, they maintained a stoicism and tried their best to placate him. But he pushed them to far. Now, XI says that Trump is his friend, but Putin is his best friend. Trump did that.
Long term, it won't be China who suffers from this ill conceived war. They'll just make new alliances and as the rest of the world recognizes that the U.S. has become unstable and unreliable as a partner, they will gladly join in mutually beneficial alliances that exclude the U.S.
Bravado and chest thumping can only get you so far....
None of this maters, and everyone can blame China or Trump or the idiots that went before him. At the end of the day, China can wait out Trump, and the idiot that will follow will not have the stomach to deal with Trumps trade practice and will just allow things to go back to the status quo.
China has become very advanced and very competitive, something which the US wants to put a halt to, it simply does not want competition.
As far as Apple is concerned I'm sure they have been looking elsewhere where they can get a higher profit ratio. There are other places where labour is cheaper than in China, maybe India, Vietnam, Bangladesh, etc.
We operate on a free enterprise system, which is based on the premise that competition benefits the system by benefiting the consumer, so I don't understand why you think US doesn't want competition. Apple has a history of being a profit-driven business with a concience. They champion individual rights to things like personal privacy even when it means taking on powerful elements of the US government. They are right to look for alternative sources for skilled inexpensive labor, not to improve their margins, but to maintain their current quality to cost ratios. We all want them to do that. That this may cost thousands of Chinese their jobs is not Apple's responsibility, but the Chinese government, who should be, but are not, protecting those jobs the Chinese people and the Chinese economy depend on. If, as you say, the labor is cheaper in India, Vietnam, or Bangladesh, why is Apple in China? Do you really think you've found something Apple missed?
You had me until you blamed this mess on China. Trump has yet to produce any proof of his claims. In fact a bipartisan bill in congress will censure him for hiding behind national security. But he has admitted to wanting to try to slow down the Chinese economy because he fears it passing the U.S. economy to become he world's largest.
That's a Trump problem, not a China problem. But the Chinese are fed up with him and will be striking back in the appropriate ways and at the appropriate time.
Trump is like the bump in the road. Its real. You either deal with it, or you take the hit. Trumps drama is Apple's challenge and Foxconn's challenge as well. They are preparing to meet the challenge with as little loss as possible while China is still making inflammatory threats and risking a loss they probably can't afford. Trump is behaving like Trump and China is behaving like China. The Chinese people will ultimately pay the price for all this. And that's a China problem.
My money would not be on Trump.... And China is not "Still making threats". Until Trump went crazy on them, they maintained a stoicism and tried their best to placate him. But he pushed them to far. Now, XI says that Trump is his friend, but Putin is his best friend. Trump did that.
Long term, it won't be China who suffers from this ill conceived war. They'll just make new alliances and as the rest of the world recognizes that the U.S. has become unstable and unreliable as a partner, they will gladly join in mutually beneficial alliances that exclude the U.S.
Bravado and chest thumping can only get you so far....
None of this maters, and everyone can blame China or Trump or the idiots that went before him. At the end of the day, China can wait out Trump, and the idiot that will follow will not have the stomach to deal with Trumps trade practice and will just allow things to go back to the status quo.
The question is: Can China afford both the short-term and long-term economic losses? If they are eventually kicked out of the WTO (as should’ve happened many years ago), they will be in far more trouble.
The question is: Can China afford both the short-term and long-term economic losses? If they are eventually kicked out of the WTO (as should’ve happened many years ago), they will be in far more trouble.
Trump is effectively withdrawing from the WTO, which the US created. He is ignoring all of the WTO rules and doing whatever he pleases, calling it "national security". He even threatened to ignore his new trade deal with Mexico, to threaten tariffs over non-trade issues.
Comments
They can earn billions and billions of dollars because the government print trillions of dollars over the years. It is not their fault to make so much money. On this point I strongly disagree with the other side.
system by benefiting the consumer, so I don't understand why you think US doesn't want competition. Apple has a history of being a profit-driven business with a concience. They champion individual rights to things like personal privacy even when it means taking on powerful elements of the US government. They are right to look for alternative sources for skilled inexpensive labor, not to improve their margins, but to maintain their current quality to cost ratios. We all want them to do that. That this may cost thousands of Chinese their jobs is not Apple's responsibility, but the Chinese government, who should be, but are not, protecting those jobs the Chinese people and the Chinese economy depend on. If, as you say, the labor is cheaper in India, Vietnam, or Bangladesh, why is Apple in China? Do you really think you've found something Apple missed?
That's a Trump problem, not a China problem. But the Chinese are fed up with him and will be striking back in the appropriate ways and at the appropriate time.
And China is not "Still making threats". Until Trump went crazy on them, they maintained a stoicism and tried their best to placate him. But he pushed them to far. Now, XI says that Trump is his friend, but Putin is his best friend. Trump did that.
Long term, it won't be China who suffers from this ill conceived war. They'll just make new alliances and as the rest of the world recognizes that the U.S. has become unstable and unreliable as a partner, they will gladly join in mutually beneficial alliances that exclude the U.S.
Bravado and chest thumping can only get you so far....
It was beyond stupid to invite communist into the WTO. The less money we give those authoritative, totalitarian assholes the better!